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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2021 3:05:37 GMT
Why is natural evolution the only way life can exist? AI's by definition do not evolve naturally. And yet they still evolve and are alive. Human beings and Animals, from the moment we're born, we're constantly learning and evolving as nature intended. We gain fears and hopes. We pick up skills and feel -or not- emotion for other creatures. We constantly, via experience, evolving. An AI like EDI may be able to change her programming to include altruistic tendencies -which she does in ME3 if you build a friendship with her-, but she is not *alive*. If we break it down far enough though aren't both humans, and animals, just machines when you boil it down basically? Afterall we have programming via our nature (DNA) and our nurture (what our parents/ society at large instil in us) and yet we also have the ability to chose from all those options and make decisions which is logical and best for our own point of view, just like EDI. Maybe that is, in essence, what 'sentience' means, the ability to make informed decisions and expressed free will based on our vast array of options.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 11, 2021 3:14:45 GMT
Human beings and Animals, from the moment we're born, we're constantly learning and evolving as nature intended. We gain fears and hopes. We pick up skills and feel -or not- emotion for other creatures. We constantly, via experience, evolving. An AI like EDI may be able to change her programming to include altruistic tendencies -which she does in ME3 if you build a friendship with her-, but she is not *alive*. If we break it down far enough though aren't both humans, and animals, just machines when you boil it down basically? Afterall we have programming via our nature (DNA) and our nurture (what our parents/ society at large instil in us) and yet we also have the ability to chose from all those options and make decisions which is logical and best for our own point of view, just like EDI. Maybe that is, in essence, what 'sentience' means, the ability to make informed decisions and expressed free will based on our vast array of options. Sure. But our 'programming' can't be altered by a change in numerical order. Unlike an AI such as EDI or the Geth.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 11, 2021 14:37:19 GMT
Why is natural evolution the only way life can exist? AI's by definition do not evolve naturally. And yet they still evolve and are alive. Human beings and Animals, from the moment we're born, we're constantly learning and evolving as nature intended. We gain fears and hopes. We pick up skills and feel -or not- emotion for other creatures. We constantly, via experience, evolving. An AI like EDI may be able to change her programming to include altruistic tendencies -which she does in ME3 if you build a friendship with her-, but she is not *alive*. Narrow views of subjects have always blinded people to the wider view. Living and not living was a concept created by ourselves. Having no other examples we used ourselves as the basis of our conclusions. This doesn't make the concept the factual laws of the universe. Trying to use nature as your defense ignores everything. From the simple book to the internet and the vast trove of knowledge it contains at your finger tip is not natural. Books do not grow on trees. They are artificially created. If it was natural for people to read a book then you would see all animals creating and reading books. Crying nature is the last ditch effort of someone with no real argument. We have transcended so far beyond nature that we have started to bend nature to our will. And in Mass Effect has bent nature to their will. In nature Joker would have died as an infant rather then grow into an adult. They can take planets that would be inhospitable to a human or Salarian and manipulate the environment to allow colonies to thrive on the planet that by nature would have killed everyone that landed on the planet. We can manipulate the genetics of crops to increase yield and increase the resistance to insects and diseases. We defy nature by transporting water from other sources to compensate for weather.
The only aspects of nature that still have any effect on us are aspects we have not yet learned how to manipulate. And to make any claim that nature intended us to learn how to store vast amounts of information on servers as 0's and 1's and to access it using computers that were mined from mineral mined and machined by man. Then you have to show the supporting facts how nature intended this only for humans and not for bearded dragons as well. You will have to show that nature is a conscious and sentient entity who planned all this out from the start when we were just single cell bacteria swimming in the primordial ooze.
Without proof of this conscious sentient entity guiding all life in the galaxy then nature is just chaos. Nature doesn't order or define anything. It simply punishes those who don't adapt and change or learn how to control it.
EDI is alive by the same reason Shepard is alive and by the same reason Anderson is alive and the same reason Mordin is alive.
If we break it down far enough though aren't both humans, and animals, just machines when you boil it down basically? Afterall we have programming via our nature (DNA) and our nurture (what our parents/ society at large instil in us) and yet we also have the ability to chose from all those options and make decisions which is logical and best for our own point of view, just like EDI. Maybe that is, in essence, what 'sentience' means, the ability to make informed decisions and expressed free will based on our vast array of options. Sure. But our 'programming' can't be altered by a change in numerical order. Unlike an AI such as EDI or the Geth. Genetic modification and surgical implants.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 15:18:40 GMT
If we break it down far enough though aren't both humans, and animals, just machines when you boil it down basically? Afterall we have programming via our nature (DNA) and our nurture (what our parents/ society at large instil in us) and yet we also have the ability to chose from all those options and make decisions which is logical and best for our own point of view, just like EDI. Maybe that is, in essence, what 'sentience' means, the ability to make informed decisions and expressed free will based on our vast array of options. Sure. But our 'programming' can't be altered by a change in numerical order. Unlike an AI such as EDI or the Geth. Sadly, this is not true at all. Humans are depressingly programmable, all it takes is sufficient distraction and sensory overload and the vast majority are easily confused and misled. See our modern "western" world grooming future US President Macho The Rock Camacho with his current TV show... This is the obvious part of control. The psychological manipulation done by marketing wizards is leading us to a very stupid place, and many of us walk in the line wondering what the fuck we're doing, yet we're still walking here. Planting insidious thought bombs that change minds and opinions is kind of the game these days. We are fancy machines, the DNA makes it sorta plain.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 11, 2021 15:36:02 GMT
Human beings and Animals, from the moment we're born, we're constantly learning and evolving as nature intended. We gain fears and hopes. We pick up skills and feel -or not- emotion for other creatures. We constantly, via experience, evolving. An AI like EDI may be able to change her programming to include altruistic tendencies -which she does in ME3 if you build a friendship with her-, but she is not *alive*. If we break it down far enough though aren't both humans, and animals, just machines when you boil it down basically? Afterall we have programming via our nature (DNA) and our nurture (what our parents/ society at large instil in us) and yet we also have the ability to chose from all those options and make decisions which is logical and best for our own point of view, just like EDI. Maybe that is, in essence, what 'sentience' means, the ability to make informed decisions and expressed free will based on our vast array of options. That's how I see i ttoo they'er sentien tbeing sand ae rcapable of making their own cfhoices at thend o fthe day the Quarians kept attacking them wher the Geth were really on;ly trying t odefen dthemselves and whilst agreeingt ohelp from th eReapers was dubious yes but I can see wh ythe ymade thaw tcall even if it was the wronmg one. Th eQuarians may not have intended to mak ethe Geth sentient but the ydid a ttheend of the day and in doing so created a nwe life form and they have to accept that. Whils tin theend i ttook a lot of doing I think in the end they did.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 11, 2021 15:37:03 GMT
Sure. But our 'programming' can't be altered by a change in numerical order. Unlike an AI such as EDI or the Geth. Sadly, this is not true at all. Humans are depressingly programmable, all it takes is sufficient distraction and sensory overload and the vast majority are easily confused and misled. See our modern "western" world grooming future US President Macho The Rock Camacho with his current TV show... This is the obvious part of control. The psychological manipulation done by marketing wizards is leading us to a very stupid place, and many of us walk in the line wondering what the fuck we're doing, yet we're still walking here. Planting insidious thought bombs that change minds and opinions is kind of the game these days. We are fancy machines, the DNA makes it sorta plain. Hmm. Allow me to put it another way. I'm almost 40. I've had Bi-Polar and traumatic stress since 11 years old. I can't program that away like EDI can program herself to be altruistic. She does this instantly. My programming, the programming of any Organic, would take months or even years of conditioning. I can't see a Machine as being alive when they don't have to suffer the same, and can simply decide to reprogram themselves at will.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 11, 2021 15:44:31 GMT
Human beings and Animals, from the moment we're born, we're constantly learning and evolving as nature intended. We gain fears and hopes. We pick up skills and feel -or not- emotion for other creatures. We constantly, via experience, evolving. An AI like EDI may be able to change her programming to include altruistic tendencies -which she does in ME3 if you build a friendship with her-, but she is not *alive*. Narrow views of subjects have always blinded people to the wider view. Living and not living was a concept created by ourselves. Having no other examples we used ourselves as the basis of our conclusions. This doesn't make the concept the factual laws of the universe. Trying to use nature as your defense ignores everything. From the simple book to the internet and the vast trove of knowledge it contains at your finger tip is not natural. Books do not grow on trees. They are artificially created. If it was natural for people to read a book then you would see all animals creating and reading books. Crying nature is the last ditch effort of someone with no real argument. We have transcended so far beyond nature that we have started to bend nature to our will. And in Mass Effect has bent nature to their will. In nature Joker would have died as an infant rather then grow into an adult. They can take planets that would be inhospitable to a human or Salarian and manipulate the environment to allow colonies to thrive on the planet that by nature would have killed everyone that landed on the planet. We can manipulate the genetics of crops to increase yield and increase the resistance to insects and diseases. We defy nature by transporting water from other sources to compensate for weather.
The only aspects of nature that still have any effect on us are aspects we have not yet learned how to manipulate. And to make any claim that nature intended us to learn how to store vast amounts of information on servers as 0's and 1's and to access it using computers that were mined from mineral mined and machined by man. Then you have to show the supporting facts how nature intended this only for humans and not for bearded dragons as well. You will have to show that nature is a conscious and sentient entity who planned all this out from the start when we were just single cell bacteria swimming in the primordial ooze.
Without proof of this conscious sentient entity guiding all life in the galaxy then nature is just chaos. Nature doesn't order or define anything. It simply punishes those who don't adapt and change or learn how to control it.
EDI is alive by the same reason Shepard is alive and by the same reason Anderson is alive and the same reason Mordin is alive.
Sure. But our 'programming' can't be altered by a change in numerical order. Unlike an AI such as EDI or the Geth. Genetic modification and surgical implants. We'll have to agree to disagree. Clearly you see the Machines as some sort of fake evolutionary peak. And I don't.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2021 16:22:51 GMT
We'll have to agree to disagree. Clearly you see the Machines as some sort of fake evolutionary peak. And I don't. Probably because there is no such thing as an evolutionary peak. Any belief that it is so has a gross misunderstanding of how biology works. Which you know, of course. The "end" of evolution is extinction. I suppose Synthesis has basically caused the extinction of every organic entity in existence so there's no evolution for them. We don't know what will occur with the organic-synthetic beings. Given that they literally just happened, any assumption that they can't evolve is based on zero evidence. Call me unhappy to learn my race has become extinct because some ancient AI that's fucked up every step of the way over the course of a billion thinks it knows better.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 11, 2021 16:25:49 GMT
We'll have to agree to disagree. Clearly you see the Machines as some sort of fake evolutionary peak. And I don't. Probably because there is no such thing as an evolutionary peak. Any belief that it is so has a gross misunderstanding of how biology works. Which you know, of course. The "end" of evolution is extinction. I suppose Synthesis has basically caused the extinction of every organic entity in existence so there's no evolution for them. We don't know what will occur with the organic-synthetic beings. Given that they literally just happened, any assumption that they can't evolve is based on zero evidence. Call me unhappy to learn my race has become extinct because some ancient AI that's fucked up every step of the way over the course of a billion thinks it knows better. I guess that the Green made everyone sterile.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2021 16:37:55 GMT
Probably because there is no such thing as an evolutionary peak. Any belief that it is so has a gross misunderstanding of how biology works. Which you know, of course. The "end" of evolution is extinction. I suppose Synthesis has basically caused the extinction of every organic entity in existence so there's no evolution for them. We don't know what will occur with the organic-synthetic beings. Given that they literally just happened, any assumption that they can't evolve is based on zero evidence. Call me unhappy to learn my race has become extinct because some ancient AI that's fucked up every step of the way over the course of a billion thinks it knows better. I guess that the Green made everyone sterile. That's not what I was saying. The organic beings know as humans, turians, krogan, asari, hanar, salarian and others no longer exist. They have been replaced by something else, which is a combination of organic and synthetic. Those things are a new race entirely. The old races are dead.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 11, 2021 16:41:58 GMT
I guess that the Green made everyone sterile. That's not what I was saying. The organic beings know as humans, turians, krogan, asari, hanar, salarian and others no longer exist. They have been replaced by something else, which is a combination of organic and synthetic. Those things are a new race entirely. The old races are dead. Replaced by something more subservient to Starkid. So what should be called then?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2021 16:43:12 GMT
That's not what I was saying. The organic beings know as humans, turians, krogan, asari, hanar, salarian and others no longer exist. They have been replaced by something else, which is a combination of organic and synthetic. Those things are a new race entirely. The old races are dead. Replaced by something more subservient to Starkid. So what should be called then? Slaves
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 11, 2021 16:47:11 GMT
Replaced by something more subservient to Starkid. So what should be called then? Slaves Maybe, but slaves usually keep their minds, Starkid's meat puppets don't have their old minds intact.... Wait.... Meat Puppets!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 16:51:30 GMT
That's not what I was saying. The organic beings know as humans, turians, krogan, asari, hanar, salarian and others no longer exist. They have been replaced by something else, which is a combination of organic and synthetic. Those things are a new race entirely. The old races are dead. Replaced by something more subservient to Starkid. So what should be called then? On Eden Prime, and later on Earth, we called them Husks. And then we killed them with no mercy. This is why Synthesis is not an option. Starkid wants Synthesis, as that is already what the Reapers do, harvest and collect and "store" the value of the species. Then inject the BratJizz synthetic oil. Sad.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 11, 2021 16:54:16 GMT
Replaced by something more subservient to Starkid. So what should be called then? On Eden Prime, and later on Earth, we called them Husks. And then we killed them with no mercy. But that names been already taken buy the Starkid's cyborg zombies, this is for Starkid's fleshy but alive puppets.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2021 16:55:10 GMT
Maybe, but slaves usually keep their minds, Starkid's meat puppets don't have their old minds intact.... Wait.... Meat Puppets! Freaking AI! Who cares of they have minds when you can usurp them at will?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 11, 2021 16:57:35 GMT
Maybe, but slaves usually keep their minds, Starkid's meat puppets don't have their old minds intact.... Wait.... Meat Puppets! Freaking AI! Who cares of they have minds when you can usurp them at will? I guess that's what happens when you don't install a kill switch into an AI.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 16:58:56 GMT
On Eden Prime, and later on Earth, we called them Husks. And then we killed them with no mercy. But that names been already taken buy the Starkid's cyborg zombies, this is for Starkid's fleshy but alive puppets. Yes. Yet as I think we agree, there is no difference between the two. Both Husks and post-Synthesis beings were irrevocably altered at their core level without inform or consent. In most civil societies, this is (not casually) called rape, or worse. We would have to invent a word for this crime, maybe we need to now IRL.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 11, 2021 17:02:46 GMT
We'll have to agree to disagree. Clearly you see the Machines as some sort of fake evolutionary peak. And I don't. Probably because there is no such thing as an evolutionary peak. Any belief that it is so has a gross misunderstanding of how biology works. Which you know, of course. The "end" of evolution is extinction. I suppose Synthesis has basically caused the extinction of every organic entity in existence so there's no evolution for them. We don't know what will occur with the organic-synthetic beings. Given that they literally just happened, any assumption that they can't evolve is based on zero evidence. Call me unhappy to learn my race has become extinct because some ancient AI that's fucked up every step of the way over the course of a billion thinks it knows better. I DID say 'fake evolutionary peak' for a reason. Synthesis is sold to use -by a REAPER no less- as being the best. That the Galaxy will achieve perfection if we all merge. But there is no such thing as the aforementioned peak. Life constantly evolves. But that wouldn't happen if we Synthesized. Are we agreeing here? Sorry my brain is a little mushed today lol.
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Post by andydandymandy on Apr 11, 2021 19:15:50 GMT
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 11, 2021 19:49:20 GMT
Narrow views of subjects have always blinded people to the wider view. Living and not living was a concept created by ourselves. Having no other examples we used ourselves as the basis of our conclusions. This doesn't make the concept the factual laws of the universe. Trying to use nature as your defense ignores everything. From the simple book to the internet and the vast trove of knowledge it contains at your finger tip is not natural. Books do not grow on trees. They are artificially created. If it was natural for people to read a book then you would see all animals creating and reading books. Crying nature is the last ditch effort of someone with no real argument. We have transcended so far beyond nature that we have started to bend nature to our will. And in Mass Effect has bent nature to their will. In nature Joker would have died as an infant rather then grow into an adult. They can take planets that would be inhospitable to a human or Salarian and manipulate the environment to allow colonies to thrive on the planet that by nature would have killed everyone that landed on the planet. We can manipulate the genetics of crops to increase yield and increase the resistance to insects and diseases. We defy nature by transporting water from other sources to compensate for weather.
The only aspects of nature that still have any effect on us are aspects we have not yet learned how to manipulate. And to make any claim that nature intended us to learn how to store vast amounts of information on servers as 0's and 1's and to access it using computers that were mined from mineral mined and machined by man. Then you have to show the supporting facts how nature intended this only for humans and not for bearded dragons as well. You will have to show that nature is a conscious and sentient entity who planned all this out from the start when we were just single cell bacteria swimming in the primordial ooze.
Without proof of this conscious sentient entity guiding all life in the galaxy then nature is just chaos. Nature doesn't order or define anything. It simply punishes those who don't adapt and change or learn how to control it.
EDI is alive by the same reason Shepard is alive and by the same reason Anderson is alive and the same reason Mordin is alive.
Genetic modification and surgical implants. We'll have to agree to disagree. Clearly you see the Machines as some sort of fake evolutionary peak. And I don't. No I see machines as a new form of evolution. Final proof we have removed nature from the equation. As we reached the level needed to create new life. Machines will grown and develop in new ways that their creators never could. And it will be developed as they see fit not due to random genetic chance that created organic life.
Nature is not the yard stick to measure if something is alive because we created the definition of it out of thin air.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 11, 2021 19:52:26 GMT
Just wait for next discussion! I bet it'll be about Miranda Lawson's butt again. 😉😆
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 11, 2021 20:06:16 GMT
I guess that the Green made everyone sterile. That's not what I was saying. The organic beings know as humans, turians, krogan, asari, hanar, salarian and others no longer exist. They have been replaced by something else, which is a combination of organic and synthetic. Those things are a new race entirely. The old races are dead. There is no evidence that supports this line of thought. Do people who have their DNA altered by radiation no longer count as human? Or people who are deaf and have mechanical implants that let them hear despite their DNA saying they shouldn’t? Or people who undergo gene therapy? According to you the answer is yes, since now they are different. And if so, humanity died out tens of thousands of years ago. Evolution is all about adaptation, so suddenly having synthetic lines in us doesn’t change that. We are still human, turian, asari, etc. Staying the same like you think evolution means is the antithesis of it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 21:15:06 GMT
That's not what I was saying. The organic beings know as humans, turians, krogan, asari, hanar, salarian and others no longer exist. They have been replaced by something else, which is a combination of organic and synthetic. Those things are a new race entirely. The old races are dead. There is no evidence that supports this line of thought. Do people who have their DNA altered by radiation no longer count as human? Or people who are deaf and have mechanical implants that let them hear despite their DNA saying they shouldn’t? Or people who undergo gene therapy? According to you the answer is yes, since now they are different. And if so, humanity died out tens of thousands of years ago. Evolution is all about adaptation, so suddenly having synthetic lines in us doesn’t change that. We are still human, turian, asari, etc. Staying the same like you think evolution means is the antithesis of it. I don't mean that. There is this discussion of transhumanism revolving Deus Ex as well - at what point is their more machine than human? The Cyberpsycho can always make an appearance too I think your distinction is important, but talks about mutation. Mutation changes what is there, but affects creatures differently according to their "natural" defenses and vulnerabilities. Synthesis isn't a mutation, it is a deeper transformation. 50/50 is my take on synthesis, as in original vs new material. That is less a mutation and more like RoboCop. We can still evolve naturally and become better than what we are, if we change course rapidly and stick to a plan and demonstrate the ability to think about one another more and about ourselves a little less. That would be a larger digression than the one we have here, so I'll stop down that line. I don't see prosthetics and "cyberpunk" as mutation, but it is adaptation and profoundly awesome sometimes, and is hopefully a continued area of constant innovation. I guess that's my opinion, but I see where you are coming from.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 11, 2021 22:37:39 GMT
We'll have to agree to disagree. Clearly you see the Machines as some sort of fake evolutionary peak. And I don't. No I see machines as a new form of evolution. Final proof we have removed nature from the equation. As we reached the level needed to create new life. Machines will grown and develop in new ways that their creators never could. And it will be developed as they see fit not due to random genetic chance that created organic life.
Nature is not the yard stick to measure if something is alive because we created the definition of it out of thin air.
But how would they evolve further? The whole point of Organic Via Machine is that Machine can only emulate life. It *Isn't* life. It's an illusion of life.
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