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Post by jrpN7 on Apr 13, 2021 15:19:10 GMT
No, it’s more just what I think of the argument you’re making about Synthesis being galactic genocide and enslavement. There is no evidence behind it, just your subjective bias. It targeted synthetics, not just Reaper Code. “It will not discriminate.” as it said. Yeah, that does suck. I guess I'm an unfeeling jerk but I'd rather see the Reapers removed than trust that they'll play nice. I just can't bring myself to trust beings that have eradicated organic life for a billion years. It's like touching a hot stove and getting burned. After a little while the red goes away so you touch it again and get burned again. They (or the Catalyst) may no longer need to kill organics but they have a long history of feeling superior to others. What's changed? Look, I know Synthesis makes everything look fairy tale forever and ever. I just don't buy into it and, as I said, I'm not that forgiving. The number of sentient beings they've killed is mind boggling. Not sure you can find a number. Calculators come up with this lovely number: 2E+22, or 2(to the 22nd power) x 4,194,304. I can't quantify that number. Can you? I'm not likely to change my view on them but you can do as you I must agree. My first playthrough I did synthesis primarily because the game coerces us to that decision, but admittedly I was initially twitterpated with the rainbows and butterflies ending. But when I really thought about the situation, it began to rub me wrong. Suddenly the genocidal enemy is our pal overnight? Husks being integrated into society as walking corpses of former beloved husbands, wives and children? C'est bon!?As a strong pro-choice advocate not just for women, but for people in general, as well as a true believer in "give me liberty or give me death!" I could not accept this outcome. Forcing a genetic adaptation on people violates all these principles. Also, as sad as it is to see synthetics wiped out- organics always come before synthetics. The debate on whether organics have souls is non-existent. It is fact. The same cannot be said of synthetics.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 13, 2021 15:42:16 GMT
Also, as sad as it is to see synthetics wiped out- organics always come before synthetics. The debate on whether organics have souls is non-existent. It is fact. The same cannot be said of synthetics. That’s racist. Also considering how both Ashley and Suvi talk about faith, it seems very much in the minority so there is probably very much a debate about whether organics have souls with the majority thinking no.
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Post by Blast Processor on Apr 13, 2021 15:49:37 GMT
In any case, the dark age never occurs in high-EMS anyway, so that’s not really a worry. Which makes Destroy far more of a fairy tale ending than Control or Synthesis are. Yeah, its almost like all the endings are complete s*** that were slapped together at the last minute. Which is why I don't understand when people get so upset about the prospect of a canon ending. You never see people talk about the Genophage, or any sort of a canon choice with it. Even Andromeda just rolled it back to pre-ME3, I guess to kick the canon issue down the line. End of the day, if you want to have Mass Effect sequels, BioWare is going to have to rip the band aid off at some point.
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Post by jrpN7 on Apr 13, 2021 15:56:11 GMT
Also, as sad as it is to see synthetics wiped out- organics always come before synthetics. The debate on whether organics have souls is non-existent. It is fact. The same cannot be said of synthetics. That’s racist. Also considering how both Ashley and Suvi talk about faith, it seems very much in the minority so there is probably very much a debate about whether organics have souls with the majority thinking no. I hardly think it's racist because unlike organics, synthetics could care less if I had a prejudice or hesitation against them because they don't feel. I think the more appropriate term is roboskepticism.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 13, 2021 16:11:41 GMT
That’s racist. Also considering how both Ashley and Suvi talk about faith, it seems very much in the minority so there is probably very much a debate about whether organics have souls with the majority thinking no. I hardly think it's racist because unlike organics, synthetics could care less if I had a prejudice or hesitation against them because they don't feel. I think the more appropriate term is roboskepticism. Them not feeling has proven to be objectively false. Between that and earlier comments, definitely a bigot of some kind. Also no comment on most of humanity in ME thinking people don’t have souls thus going against your earlier argument?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 13, 2021 16:14:02 GMT
Which makes Destroy far more of a fairy tale ending than Control or Synthesis are. Yeah, its almost like all the endings are complete s*** that were slapped together at the last minute. Which is why I don't understand when people get so upset about the prospect of a canon ending. You never see people talk about the Genophage, or any sort of a canon choice with it. Even Andromeda just rolled it back to pre-ME3, I guess to kick the canon issue down the line. End of the day, if you want to have Mass Effect sequels, BioWare is going to have to rip the band aid off at some point. No thanks. I’m fine with the ending I have. Meanwhile BioWare has proven untrustworthy to me when it comes to making things canon. They’ve already ruined Revan (and Exile), Hawke, will ruin Inquisitor, so don’t need Shepard and their trilogy added to the list.
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Post by jrpN7 on Apr 13, 2021 16:44:31 GMT
I hardly think it's racist because unlike organics, synthetics could care less if I had a prejudice or hesitation against them because they don't feel. I think the more appropriate term is roboskepticism. Them not feeling has proven to be objectively false. Between that and earlier comments, definitely a bigot of some kind. Also no comment on most of humanity in ME thinking people don’t have souls thus going against your earlier argument? Ok, so I'm as big of a bigot as you are as big of a rapist. Well done bringing us to this point. Also, I have no idea what you are talking about and where you get 'humanity in ME thinking people don't have souls'? I've seen you do this with other commenters on this forum: make vary bizarre and complexing accusations and claims rendering your arguments dubious so you can avoid admitting you're just wrong.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 13, 2021 16:52:28 GMT
Them not feeling has proven to be objectively false. Between that and earlier comments, definitely a bigot of some kind. Also no comment on most of humanity in ME thinking people don’t have souls thus going against your earlier argument? Ok, so I'm as big of a bigot as you are as big of a rapist. Well done bringing us to this point. Also, I have no idea what you are talking about and where you get 'humanity in ME thinking people don't have souls'? I've seen you do this with other commenters on this forum: make vary bizarre and complexing accusations and claims rendering your arguments dubious so you can avoid admitting you're just wrong. There’s nothing in Synthesis that is rape. To say that is an insult to those who actually suffered sexual assault. I get it from the fact that there are only two religious humans in the series, and both explain how they have to defend their beliefs because most people don’t think that way anymore. Shouldn’t be that surprising, since the real world is becoming more and more secular.
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Post by jrpN7 on Apr 13, 2021 17:06:09 GMT
Ok, so I'm as big of a bigot as you are as big of a rapist. Well done bringing us to this point. Also, I have no idea what you are talking about and where you get 'humanity in ME thinking people don't have souls'? I've seen you do this with other commenters on this forum: make vary bizarre and complexing accusations and claims rendering your arguments dubious so you can avoid admitting you're just wrong. There’s nothing in Synthesis that is rape. To say that is an insult to those who actually suffered sexual assault. I get it from the fact that there are only two religious humans in the series, and both explain how they have to defend their beliefs because most people don’t think that way anymore. Shouldn’t be that surprising, since the real world is becoming more and more secular. Right, OK. And to say I'm a bigot for choosing destroy is an insult to anyone who has struggled with bigotry their whole life, which I have. So excuse you. In the end, it is a morally and ethically tough decision for Shepard to make between synthesis and destroy. That said, I and many others here have perfectly sound logic and reasoning to say destroy is the morally superior option and we've explained why thus. I remove myself in this discourse with you.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 13, 2021 17:11:09 GMT
jrpN7 Fine, but why ignore the other part of my post again?
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 13, 2021 17:14:46 GMT
In any case, the dark age never occurs in high-EMS anyway, so that’s not really a worry. Which makes Destroy far more of a fairy tale ending than Control or Synthesis are. All of the endings fundamentally suffer from the same problem, of course stemming from the entity that literally comes out of nowhere and discombobulates just about every major story beat from the trilogy, particularly when it comes to the relays. Like, the relays are heavily damaged in every ending, but it doesn’t automatically wipe out the systems they’re in, only because they’re just a little damaged or something, even though the cores of spiraling energy is the thing that bursts. Go figure. In Control, people wouldn’t just accept reapers, because the reapers up until this point were horrifying death ships. Did Shepard have them rain daisies and speak in a big booming voice saying “I BRING YOU LOVE”?
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Post by jrpN7 on Apr 13, 2021 17:20:37 GMT
jrpN7 Fine, but why ignore the other part of my post again? Because I never was able to establish the point you were trying to make. Secularism does not mean people lose their souls. Nor does it mean non-religious people believe people don't have souls. That's so absurd I chose to sidestep it altogether.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 13, 2021 17:26:09 GMT
jrpN7 Fine, but why ignore the other part of my post again? Because I never was able to establish the point you were trying to make. Secularism does not mean people lose their souls. Nor does it mean non-religious people believe people don't have souls. That's so absurd I chose to sidestep it altogether. That’s not what I said at all. Talk about “vary bizarre and complexing accusations and claims rendering your arguments dubious so you can avoid admitting you're just wrong.” You said in the lore the topic of humans/organics having souls wasn’t a debate with it “being a fact” while with synthetics it was a debate. I brought up this point because most of humanity in ME is secular and thus it wouldn’t be an established fact but very much something in debate, even more so than it is today.
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Post by jrpN7 on Apr 13, 2021 17:31:36 GMT
Because I never was able to establish the point you were trying to make. Secularism does not mean people lose their souls. Nor does it mean non-religious people believe people don't have souls. That's so absurd I chose to sidestep it altogether. That’s not what I said at all. Talk about “vary bizarre and complexing accusations and claims rendering your arguments dubious so you can avoid admitting you're just wrong.” You said in the lore the topic of humans/organics having souls wasn’t a debate with it “being a fact” while with synthetics it was a debate. I brought up this point because most of humanity in ME is secular and thus it wouldn’t be an established fact but very much something in debate, even more so than it is today. You're saying majority secularism in humanity means people are debating whether or not humanity has souls. Yes? Again, that's absurd. I'm agnostic/secular as are most of my friends. Never once have we thought humans were soulless. But thanks for sharing such a bizarre and complexing concept. Super fun, but I'm done here.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Apr 13, 2021 17:40:48 GMT
Any stores offering better bonuses as opposed to simply ordering through Origin/Steam? Gamestop did posters one year and best buy gave out a little book. Was hoping there would be something like that for Mass Effect.
I bought it digitally on Playstation and Microsoft stores for PS4 and XB1. I was wanting to buy it on disc but I didn't want to have deal with getting money orders and depositing it in the bank to pre-order it on Amazon, and going down to Gamestop to pre-order the game became kind of a joke, ( i.e. the store would be closed. I wouldn't feel well. I didn't have the money. The store would be filled and I couldn't get it due to the pandemic, and so on). So when I finally had the money and couldn't get it physically I said "Fuck it, I'll get digitally." and went with the PS Store and MS Store, and I'm hopeful that I will get physical copies down the road.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 13, 2021 17:51:07 GMT
Which makes Destroy far more of a fairy tale ending than Control or Synthesis are. All of the endings fundamentally suffer from the same problem, of course stemming from the entity that literally comes out of nowhere and discombobulates just about every major story beat from the trilogy, particularly when it comes to the relays. Like, the relays are heavily damaged in every ending, but it doesn’t automatically wipe out the systems they’re in, only because they’re just a little damaged or something, even though the cores of spiraling energy is the thing that bursts. Go figure. In Control, people wouldn’t just accept reapers, because the reapers up until this point were horrifying death ships. Did Shepard have them rain daisies and speak in a big booming voice saying “I BRING YOU LOVE”? Or AI Shep had them rain down red, blue and green cupcakes. 😆
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 13, 2021 21:37:32 GMT
It's an interesting argument, but I'm not sure that it's legit to equate transfprmation and death. How about bringing your own thoughts to the table?. You seem to spend all your time watching us discuss and argue, while never giving us anything to chew on in return. *shrugs* It's just that I don't think my own ideas are all that interesting. My interpretation has always been that everything in ME always ought to have been taken exactly at face value, and working on interpretation is a colossal waste of time. Synthesis is exactly what it says on the tin; organics are now upgradeable to be physically competitive with synthetics, and synthetics are now capable of intuitively comprehending organics' thoughts and feelings. You're the same person you were before, only better. This goes for everything else in the game. In Control, the Shepard-Catalyst is what it says it is and will do exactly what it says it will do -- specifics are up to player interpretation since the player created Shepard's personality. Pre-EC, the various mass relay explosions were exactly as destructive as the Citadel relay's explosion at the start of the sequence -- that is, trivial. And so forth.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 13, 2021 21:41:11 GMT
That’s not what I said at all. Talk about “vary bizarre and complexing accusations and claims rendering your arguments dubious so you can avoid admitting you're just wrong.” You said in the lore the topic of humans/organics having souls wasn’t a debate with it “being a fact” while with synthetics it was a debate. I brought up this point because most of humanity in ME is secular and thus it wouldn’t be an established fact but very much something in debate, even more so than it is today. You're saying majority secularism in humanity means people are debating whether or not humanity has souls. Yes? Again, that's absurd. I'm agnostic/secular as are most of my friends. Never once have we thought humans were soulless. But thanks for sharing such a bizarre and complexing concept. Super fun, but I'm done here. What's a "soul"?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 0:44:38 GMT
There’s nothing in Synthesis that is rape. To say that is an insult to those who actually suffered sexual assault. As a victim of muliple childhood sexual abuse and one rape as a young adult, and also someone who has called Synthesis exactly rape, I strongly disagree with your opinion here and honestly feel a little attacked.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 14, 2021 11:18:32 GMT
An uninterrupted emotional experience of the world between birth and death, I would guess, if we're talking about it in secular terms. Whatever it is that allows you to consciously feel like an autonomous living entity in spite of just being a bag of meat and bone and electrons following a perfect trajectory determined all the way back at the Big Bang. An experience that objects like pencils and laptops presumably don't share. I definitely think it's worth debating. We have some reason to assume that other humans have them too, and to a much lesser extent animal life, because we each individually (hopefully) know that we have one and they're somewhat related to us. Computer programming, however complicated? Not so much. It's hypothetically possible that a sufficiently powerful AI or whatever weird hybrid Synthesis results in is alive in some sense, if not exactly the same as we are, but unlike with other human beings I see no reason for us to actually give them that benefit of the doubt or grant them concessions because of it. And to me, the human species' absolute most sacred tradition is telling, thinking about and absorbing stories, and gleaning whatever small lessons and perspectives we can from them to add to our own understanding of the world, ourselves and of other people, whether or not they're specifically intended by the author or relevant to something in front of us right this minute. In my mind, saying that it's a big waste of time to just think through the implications of something that happens in any given story is the same as saying "You know what? I think I'm smart and wise enough to start letting my brain run on autopilot from now on. You dummies just keep on exploring ideas and accumulating information and all that garbage. I'm good." And I wish people wouldn't always use rape of all things either as a loaded stand-in for 'violation' or as an emotional tool to browbeat each other and present themselves as more righteous or sensitive in a completely hypothetical discussion. I think it's perfectly fair to say that choosing Synthesis would be a violation of humanity without their consent, just as it's fair to say that Shepard really isn't in a position to take human rights into consideration when forced to make the choice. Having your property destroyed and being stranded in space and on hundreds of different planets without the support necessary to survive, or being "protected" by all-powerful robot gods with their own ideas about what we shouldn't be allowed to as civilizations in perpetuity would all be pretty violating too in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 17:14:57 GMT
And I wish people wouldn't always use rape of all things either as a loaded stand-in for 'violation' or as an emotional tool to browbeat each other and present themselves as more righteous or sensitive in a completely hypothetical discussion. I used it, in this discussion, because it is exactly what I said it is. Perhaps you have never had the bad fate to be defenseless in this situation, and for that I tell you you're lucky. I wasn't trying to browbeat anybody, but I did share my experience because it seemed incredibly relevant to the discussion all of a sudden. I appreciate your wish, but hypothetical discussions are still discussions and the subject matter isn't simple.
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Post by twalicious on Apr 14, 2021 18:35:37 GMT
Ok, so I'm as big of a bigot as you are as big of a rapist. Well done bringing us to this point. Also, I have no idea what you are talking about and where you get 'humanity in ME thinking people don't have souls'? I've seen you do this with other commenters on this forum: make vary bizarre and complexing accusations and claims rendering your arguments dubious so you can avoid admitting you're just wrong. There’s nothing in Synthesis that is rape. To say that is an insult to those who actually suffered sexual assault. I get it from the fact that there are only two religious humans in the series, and both explain how they have to defend their beliefs because most people don’t think that way anymore. Shouldn’t be that surprising, since the real world is becoming more and more secular. Forcing your will onto someone's body without their consent and altering or taking away their dignity or identity so to speak... What would you call it? Synthesis feels like galaxy wide rape to me. Honestly though you already crossed lines fairly quickly by calling someone a racist and then a bigot back to back for choosing destroy all the while suggesting what secular people think about souls. The debate on that is not whether we're soulless but what happens to these souls after death. ME had commentary on whether synthetics had souls. Never organics. It's up to the player to make a personal decision on whether synthetics do or don't. After doing Legion's quests, I of course felt like they could have souls. But in the end, I also still chose destroy. Not about to have you call me a racist and bigot over that either.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 14, 2021 19:53:02 GMT
I used it, in this discussion, because it is exactly what I said it is. Perhaps you have never had the bad fate to be defenseless in this situation, and for that I tell you you're lucky. I wasn't trying to browbeat anybody, but I did share my experience because it seemed incredibly relevant to the discussion all of a sudden. I appreciate your wish, but hypothetical discussions are still discussions and the subject matter isn't simple. Then I'd recommend that you phrase it as 'seeming like rape' to you next time, to avoid confusion and embarrassment and insult, such as by implicitly accusing someone else of being pro-rape because they're advocating something completely different in a completely different context with none of your associations, even in response to a really silly accusation of racism and bigotry in a conversation actually about machine intelligence. But unfortunately that's sometimes Hanako. Don't mistake me, I'm sorry you've had to go through what you've gone through. I can't say if my experiences with being defenseless and getting hurt and knowing that resisting will only make it worse rivals or compares to yours, but I certainly have some if you need to know that to take me seriously. And I can definitely imagine a portion of the remaining previously organic population of the galaxy reacting very, very badly to such a sudden and intrusive change to their beings, assuming they're still capable of even having of such a reaction. Mass suicides would undoubtedly be a thing, and very few people in the first generation of hybrids would know quite how to think about themselves. Especially on top of the inevitable traumas endured during the Reaper War itself. Whole cultures would arise cursing Shepard forever for making that choice for everyone else. As I said, that's a totally fair problem to have with Synthesis. Personally, I just don't find it a major issue specifically compared to the real risk that true sentience entirely ceases to exist on a galactic scale, or huge population swathes slowly dying from exposure or machine failure in the Destroy ending, or the entire galaxy potentially being held under the thumb of an arbitrary half-insane god-machine intelligence in Control. Those are pretty crazy worst case scenarios compared to people everywhere feeling violated to varying and sometimes extreme degrees, even though that's obviously terrible.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2021 0:42:08 GMT
I have lost my filter long ago, and call it like I see it. Even if it is a video game scenario, I see no difference and was absolutely devastated after choosing it on my first play. I didn't know why then, but I went into a significant depression for a couple months and didn't play the game at all. It took a while to digest, and then I understood. I chose in weakness what seemed best for others, and forgot about myself. This is actually clinical, if you understand Stockholm syndrome.
The ending is an riddle, IMO. Only you can answer it, but the implications of Control and Synthesis to me are obvious Devil's Advocate ruses. I loathe the loss of the Geth and EDI, but I will not make grand decisions for people's personal physical beings which any option other than Destroy makes room for.
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dmc1001
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 15, 2021 3:41:54 GMT
I agree, their actions are beyond evil. I will never defend them on that. Understand sure, since it makes sense logically and I’ve even seen other villains do it, but never defend. But that leads to the problem: Destroy is saying they were right, in that you are using their methods against them. At the cost of countless species with an unfashionable amount of individuals. A billion Virtual Aliens, enough Geth that their mind would be the size of a galactic arm, tons of individuals like EDI, etc. Then of course all the lives lost as the galaxy enters a galactic dark age. So it’s not to forgive the Reapers that I choose Synthesis, but for everyone else. They survive, and are even better than before. Many diseases cured, a new level of understanding among each other, and so on. All while still being people, not murdered and turned into mindcontrolled puppets I think I'm see where our fundamental differences lie. To me, Synthesis is what the Reapers want. That's their way. It's like grinding up the remnants of a species, inserting into into a metal form and having it become a Reaper. I suppose you could say the Reapers were the "poor man's" version of Synthesis. Destroy is Anderson. Control is TIM. Synthesis is the Catalyst. That's how I see things. I do regret the loss of the geth, other synthetic races and definitely EDI. I just don't see a better way that allows for me to maintain my freedom to make choices for myself. The Catalyst spent a billion years turning the ashes of dead civilizations into Reapers. When it basically ask you to do the same thing... Okay, yes, we can take each ending on face value. If it looks good, assume it is good until there's evidence to the contrary. Removing the Reapers from existence aside, breaking Kaidan's heart again is a horrible thing for me. Yes, stupid in the grand scheme but BroShep/Kaidan is was drew me into the MET so that's always going to be crucial. Incidentally, I also use JAM to get the most happy ending possible, which is the Reapers dead but all other races alive, including the geth.
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