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Post by SirSourpuss on May 31, 2021 7:58:06 GMT
If you need it explained to you how "being unworthy of notice" is not, in fact, a magic power that automatically leads to instant victory, then I think we're done here. But that will only be a temporary advantage. You won't be able to raise allies, do all sorts of shit and expect half way through the campaign that Solas will still think "this guy is still not worthy of notice, or even interested in me at all, so I don't care". At which point, you should be dead.
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Post by bierkrug on May 31, 2021 11:25:11 GMT
imgur.com/NreJVVNHow about some concept art speculation? So some people are saying the guy kneeling might be the inquisitor. Same armor with insignia on the front, face similiarities to the inquisitor in the Art of Inquisition book (though to be fair, there is no shortage of dark haired, bearded dudes in the franchise). Or other random member of the inquisition?
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 12:16:18 GMT
imgur.com/NreJVVNHow about some concept art speculation? So some people are saying the guy kneeling might be the inquisitor. Same armor with insignia on the front, face similiarities to the inquisitor in the Art of Inquisition book (though to be fair, there is no shortage of dark haired, bearded dudes in the franchise). Or other random member of the inquisition? Eh, that was one of the concept art that game me the ‘coop’ vibe, with all four being rapresentations of the PCs, like 4 differents agents, and not a PC and three companions. I honestly doubt that the kneeling character is supposed to be the inquisitor, but they said the concept arts shown might be old and not an indication of what we’d find in the game, so maybe it could’ve been one where they were inspired by the Inquisitor for one character.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 12:31:53 GMT
So giving him the idiot ball? I hope not. Mr "I got spies everywhere" should know better than that. You can whine about "feelings" all you like. Emotiniality is what makes people connect to stories. Most of humanity enjoys that aspect. No matter what happens, Solas is going to be bludgeoned by the Idiot Ball just like the Reapers in ME3. He can turn people to stone with a thought, kill people in their dreams, has spies everywhere on both sides of the Veil, and as we see in the comics can just Magic Mirror watch anyone. There is no reason why he should lose, but he will. At least him for some reason being unable to do these things to Inky has an in game reason behind it, where with a new PC the reason will be “So the movie can happen.” Well i'm hoping the Evanuris get their vengeance on Solas.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 13:56:02 GMT
No matter what happens, Solas is going to be bludgeoned by the Idiot Ball just like the Reapers in ME3. He can turn people to stone with a thought, kill people in their dreams, has spies everywhere on both sides of the Veil, and as we see in the comics can just Magic Mirror watch anyone. There is no reason why he should lose, but he will. At least him for some reason being unable to do these things to Inky has an in game reason behind it, where with a new PC the reason will be “So the movie can happen.” Well i'm hoping the Evanuris get their vengeance on Solas. Great, so we trade one Uber powerful villain for a bunch of those. I get that, in-game, we only heard Solas’ version, but I doubt they decided to drop those lore revelations to then make them false. Not to mention that some stories in Tevinter Nights seem to corrobate his version.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 14:18:03 GMT
Well i'm hoping the Evanuris get their vengeance on Solas. Great, so we trade one Uber powerful villain for a bunch of those. I get that, in-game, we only heard Solas’ version, but I doubt they decided to drop those lore revelations to then make them false. Not to mention that some stories in Tevinter Nights seem to corrobate his version. DA5 Return of the Gods
On a more serious note, i'll be annoyed if they treat the ravings of a mass murderer and his cultists as unbiased fact.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 31, 2021 14:40:38 GMT
On a more serious note, i'll be annoyed if they treat the ravings of a mass murderer and his cultists as unbiased fact. Sadly, all the indications are that they are going to do this and stick to the line that the Evanuris were tyrants, Fen'Harel was a misunderstood rebel hero and the Dalish are suffering from collective amnesia when it comes to that fact. For that matter so are the dwarves, humans and possibly even the Qunari. The first two races were definitely around during the rule of the Evanuris and the kossith could well be a hybrid created by the Evanuris as well. So long as the dwarves were running around in the Deep Roads whilst the elves were on the surface and the humans only arrived shortly before the Veil, with neither race being magically attuned, you could just about understand the lack of memory about the elven empire or a period of time before the Veil. However, the timeline in the Keep has now pushed back the arrival of the humans to many centuries before the Veil, whilst Mythal and Elgar'nan were heavily involved with the dwarves, so even if mind control explains how the dwarves forgot the titans (but not totally because of the Stone) it is odd they don't recall the reign of the Evanuris. Still, maybe that is just the memories in Orzammar that wasn't established as the capital of the dwarves until after the establishment of the Tevinter Imperium. The fact that Kal-Sharok were so eager to keep on good terms with Tevinter and immediately attacked the dwarves sheltering the elves from Arlathan Forest, may be for some other reason than the lyrium trade. After all, with the dwarves having a monopoly on the stuff, Tevinter couldn't really afford to fall out with them, so there could be something else behind the action of Kal-Sharok.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 14:55:37 GMT
On a more serious note, i'll be annoyed if they treat the ravings of a mass murderer and his cultists as unbiased fact. Sadly, all the indications are that they are going to do this and stick to the line that the Evanuris were tyrants, Fen'Harel was a misunderstood rebel hero and the Dalish are suffering from collective amnesia when it comes to that fact. For that matter so are the dwarves, humans and possibly even the Qunari. The first two races were definitely around during the rule of the Evanuris and the kossith could well be a hybrid created by the Evanuris as well. Ahh Felassan will be relieved to know he was murdered for not behaving like a slave by a misunderstood rebel hero
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 15:21:07 GMT
Great, so we trade one Uber powerful villain for a bunch of those. I get that, in-game, we only heard Solas’ version, but I doubt they decided to drop those lore revelations to then make them false. Not to mention that some stories in Tevinter Nights seem to corrobate his version. DA5 Return of the Gods
On a more serious note, i'll be annoyed if they treat the ravings of a mass murderer and his cultists as unbiased fact.
The main goal of Solas’ opponents, whoever they’ll be, should be to stop his plans. Which means that the Evanuris wouldn’t come out of their ‘prisons’. Also, while they might not fully believe him, a degree of belief is required, in the part that his plan would case the destruction of the current world, and possibly the death of countless of people. To both you and gervaise21, two things can be true. Solas can be considered a mass murderer or a madman by his opponents/majority of Thedas, while also considering the Evanuris a threat. I’d prefer if they’ll portray the Dalish/elves in their decision of supporting Solas, but truthfully, he can make a compelling case to support him. Either by manipulating them with false informations and hope. I honestly don’t see the big deal in having the Evanuris as tyrants. Solas isn’t the only source on them being bad, as both Descent and Tevinter Nights implies. Unless we’re talking about the war between Fen’harel and the Evanuris, with the first rapresenting the ‘good’ side? Even if this is true, it holds little value to what Solas wants to do now. He can very well be portrayed as a bad guy/antagonist/villain now, while being ‘good’ during the war with the Evanuris, prior their assassination of Mythal.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 16:11:37 GMT
DA5 Return of the Gods
On a more serious note, i'll be annoyed if they treat the ravings of a mass murderer and his cultists as unbiased fact.
To both you and gervaise21 , two things can be true. Solas can be considered a mass murderer or a madman by his opponents/majority of Thedas, while also considering the Evanuris a threat. I’d prefer if they’ll portray the Dalish/elves in their decision of supporting Solas, but truthfully, he can make a compelling case to support him. Either by manipulating them with false informations and hope. I honestly don’t see the big deal in having the Evanuris as tyrants. Solas isn’t the only source on them being bad, as both Descent and Tevinter Nights implies. Unless we’re talking about the war between Fen’harel and the Evanuris, with the first rapresenting the ‘good’ side? Even if this is true, it holds little value to what Solas wants to do now. He can very well be portrayed as a bad guy/antagonist/villain now, while being ‘good’ during the war with the Evanuris, prior their assassination of Mythal. I'm sure the evanuris might be a threat , just as mythal or solas are a threat because they are very powerful beings who have their own agendas. Elves supporting the return of the true world via him seems a very reasonable, though they are no doubt being manipulated just as all his followers have been down through time.
I take issue with the shoddy lazy simplistic notion of good guy and bad guy, so casting the Evanuris as evil tyrants and solas as a pure rebel angel back then is just atrocious to me. Especially if you are trying to cast someone who happily murders his own supposedly freed followers and who nuked the world because he was worried someone else might nuke it as being on the side of angels.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 16:55:34 GMT
To both you and gervaise21 , two things can be true. Solas can be considered a mass murderer or a madman by his opponents/majority of Thedas, while also considering the Evanuris a threat. I’d prefer if they’ll portray the Dalish/elves in their decision of supporting Solas, but truthfully, he can make a compelling case to support him. Either by manipulating them with false informations and hope. I honestly don’t see the big deal in having the Evanuris as tyrants. Solas isn’t the only source on them being bad, as both Descent and Tevinter Nights implies. Unless we’re talking about the war between Fen’harel and the Evanuris, with the first rapresenting the ‘good’ side? Even if this is true, it holds little value to what Solas wants to do now. He can very well be portrayed as a bad guy/antagonist/villain now, while being ‘good’ during the war with the Evanuris, prior their assassination of Mythal. I'm sure the evanuris might be a threat , just as mythal or solas are a threat because they are very powerful beings who have their own agendas. Elves supporting the return of the true world via him seems a very reasonable, though they are no doubt being manipulated just as all his followers have been down through time.
I take issue with the shoddy lazy simplistic notion of good guy and bad guy, so casting the Evanuris as evil tyrants and solas as a pure rebel angel back then is just atrocious to me. Especially if you are trying to cast someone who happily murders his own supposedly freed followers and who nuked the world because he was worried someone else might nuke it as being on the side of angels.
I get your point, though it should be noted that there’s plenty of examples in different medias of good-aligned characters turning bad. It can be lazy, but it can also be done reasonably well. Mind you, I don’t think Solas/Fen’harel was an ‘angel’ back then, and I’m quite eager to explore the backstory and lore of those times, but I do think that between him and the Evanuris, at least at first, he was on the good side.
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Post by fluffysmom on May 31, 2021 17:00:12 GMT
Everyone has differing views on Solas. He’s hands down my favorite character as of now. I don’t think he deserves a happy ending but I also don’t think he’s evil. I enjoy reading how people see him even if I don’t agree. I don’t think him not killing the Inquisitor is stupid on his part mainly because, as of Trespasser, he seems open to the possibility of a different outcome. If they find it in time good, if not then so be it. I’m interested to see where they go with that.
What I’m curious about is that during the mage storyline, the breach had expanded quite alot, right? Most of the castle was floating and the fade structures had melded with a lot of things. That was two years later? Yet the only deaths spoken of were by Cory’s demon army. Could it not be done slowly in the same way? I started out knowing where I wanted to go with this and now I’m realizing I don’t remember that quest as well as I thought. I guess it would be harder to control that way but people were alive and it wasn’t raw chaos. At least not how I picture it being if he drops the curtain all at once.
I’m morbidly curious how it would be if he succeeds but also don’t see it happening. Not by him at any rate.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 31, 2021 17:13:49 GMT
I take issue with the shoddy lazy simplistic notion of good guy and bad guy, so casting the Evanuris as evil tyrants and solas as a pure rebel angel back then is just atrocious to me. They did this for the same reason that PW said they included the romance, to try and make him seem more than the usual one dimensional bad guy. I resented having my emotions manipulated for that purpose with the romance and I found it annoying the way lore was handled concerning the Evanuris, particularly the collective amnesia thing regarding the creation of the Veil. At least the Dalish remembered they were once magical and immortal but apparently the humans and the dwarves didn't remember anything at all. Must have been a side effect or something. Especially if you are trying to cast someone who happily murders his own supposedly freed followers and who nuked the world because he was worried someone else might nuke it as being on the side of angels.
This was the part that really got me. Why did you move against them, Solas? They killed Mythal. So revenge? I wanted to free the elven people. So revolutionary? (Although you seemed happy enough with the status quo until they did kill Mythal). Because otherwise they would have destroyed the world. Huh? Isn't that what you say you are planning on doing? So how are you different? Suck it up dude and just work with what you've got in the present. With the powers you have just demonstrated I'm sure you could shake things up enough to make a real difference without destroying the fabric of reality. Sadly, we were allowed to say none of these things, just have him preach to us some more about our "mistakes", maintain he is saving our life so we can enjoy a bit of peace before we die (as it that is going to be possible knowing what we now do) and then bye.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 31, 2021 17:27:06 GMT
Mind you, I don’t think Solas/Fen’harel was an ‘angel’ back then, and I’m quite eager to explore the backstory and lore of those times, but I do think that between him and the Evanuris, at least at first, he was on the good side. I do wonder though just how he acquired the reputation he has with the Dalish, particularly as even Felassan portrays him as having a dark wisdom, just as the Dalish maintain, in his stories to Briala and since she know nothing of the the Dalish legends, he didn't have to go along with their idea of him. Also, he is only on the good side if you believe him that Mythal was the one good god among the rest of them. Even there, he was supporting her in her subjugation of the dwarves and he admits after WEWH that he enjoys the intrigue and scheming of the Game. Felassan also suggests to Briala that life among the elven elite was very different to that of the Orlesian Court and their attitude and treatment of servants was pretty much the same too. So it seems to me that Solas was quite happy with his tyrant run magical world for the first few thousand years of the elven empire. He only changed because of what they did to Mythal but what if their actions were justified because of what she was doing? Incidentally I leave Ghilan'nain out of the main group of Evanuris when making these observations. From everything we have been told, she was not originally one of them, did a lot of things in secret and was powerful enough they essentially they had to bribe her to stop. Then having invited her into their ranks, she seemed to respond by fermenting trouble, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was behind the murder of Mythal.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 31, 2021 17:32:39 GMT
I don’t think him not killing the Inquisitor is stupid on his part mainly because, as of Trespasser, he seems open to the possibility of a different outcome. The problem is this is only the case if the confrontation is with a romanced or friendly Inquisitor. With a hostile Inquisitor there is no suggestion that he would like to be stopped or there is the possibility of a different outcome. The only reason he saves them is to avoid the added chaos that would ensue if they die prematurely but he has every intention of continuing with his plan that will eventually cause their demise. So are we to understand that world state is doomed simply because the Inquisitor is a jerk? Why bother telling them anything at all?
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Post by gervaise21 on May 31, 2021 17:43:52 GMT
What I’m curious about is that during the mage storyline, the breach had expanded quite alot, right? Most of the castle was floating and the fade structures had melded with a lot of things. That was two years later? Yet the only deaths spoken of were by Cory’s demon army. Could it not be done slowly in the same way? I started out knowing where I wanted to go with this and now I’m realizing I don’t remember that quest as well as I thought. I guess it would be harder to control that way but people were alive and it wasn’t raw chaos. At least not how I picture it being if he drops the curtain all at once. Actually it was only one year after our going to the castle. So far as I understand it, the reason things were bad but not totally destroyed was that the breach tore the Veil apart over time and it had yet completely gone. Nevertheless, with demons generally roaming the countryside, it was a pretty dangerous world to live in and not much survived outside the protection of the castle. Still, it was pretty chaotic, which is why people argue the destruction in dropping the Veil might not be absolute and there could be survivors. The intriguing part for me are those concept pictures of floating aravels and land masses. At the end of DAI this is what happened in the area of the new breach created by Corypheus. I was never entirely sure if this was simply because of the magic leaking out of the Fade or his use of red lyrium channeled through the orb. There was, after all, a fair bit of red lyrium lying around at the site of the Sacred Ashes and it might well have grown and spread since we were last there. Anyway, are the floating aravels and rocks in a localised area of, say, Arlathan Forest, where the short story Ruins of Reality hints that strange magic is occurring, or is it an indication that Solas is going to succeed in his ritual but it doesn't pan out quite as he anticipated? Which you have to admit, wouldn't be the first time.
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Post by fluffysmom on May 31, 2021 17:44:31 GMT
Mind you, I don’t think Solas/Fen’harel was an ‘angel’ back then, and I’m quite eager to explore the backstory and lore of those times, but I do think that between him and the Evanuris, at least at first, he was on the good side. I do wonder though just how he acquired the reputation he has with the Dalish, particularly as even Felassan portrays him as having a dark wisdom, just as the Dalish maintain, in his stories to Briala and since she know nothing of the the Dalish legends, he didn't have to go along with their idea of him. Also, he is only on the good side if you believe him that Mythal was the one good god among the rest of them. Even there, he was supporting her in her subjugation of the dwarves and he admits after WEWH that he enjoys the intrigue and scheming of the Game. Felassan also suggests to Briala that life among the elven elite was very different to that of the Orlesian Court and their attitude and treatment of servants was pretty much the same too. So it seems to me that Solas was quite happy with his tyrant run magical world for the first few thousand years of the elven empire. He only changed because of what they did to Mythal but what if their actions were justified because of what she was doing? Incidentally I leave Ghilan'nain out of the main group of Evanuris when making these observations. From everything we have been told, she was not originally one of them, did a lot of things in secret and was powerful enough they essentially they had to bribe her to stop. Then having invited her into their ranks, she seemed to respond by fermenting trouble, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was behind the murder of Mythal. But he wasn’t happy with it until then. Keeping in mind that it’s stated that the passing of time was different for them because they lived so long, if you drink from the well and gain passage from the spirits it’s because Mythal knew the phrase. Meaning she visited his hideouts before she died and obviously supported him. In secret at least. Unless that was part of the reason they killed her if they too felt betrayed. And I prefer Solas’ wording about her. She was the best of them. Which really doesn’t say a whole lot given how horrible they apparently were. While she did keep them in check to a degree, it was clear to me that she could be selfish in how she chose to hand out punishment, often more severe than what was required. Yet she was the better option of them all and that is a tad bit terrifying. And lets not forget that he was also her slave for a time so he also rebelled against her own practices.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 17:55:22 GMT
I'm sure the evanuris might be a threat , just as mythal or solas are a threat because they are very powerful beings who have their own agendas. Elves supporting the return of the true world via him seems a very reasonable, though they are no doubt being manipulated just as all his followers have been down through time.
I take issue with the shoddy lazy simplistic notion of good guy and bad guy, so casting the Evanuris as evil tyrants and solas as a pure rebel angel back then is just atrocious to me. Especially if you are trying to cast someone who happily murders his own supposedly freed followers and who nuked the world because he was worried someone else might nuke it as being on the side of angels.
I get your point, though it should be noted that there’s plenty of examples in different medias of good-aligned characters turning bad. It can be lazy, but it can also be done reasonably well. Mind you, I don’t think Solas/Fen’harel was an ‘angel’ back then, and I’m quite eager to explore the backstory and lore of those times, but I do think that between him and the Evanuris, at least at first, he was on the good side.
See personally i don't see any need to place either on the good side to the struggle of the 2 groups. They simply had conflicting ideaological stances. I don't see anything in Solas that was inherently good. Certainly in terms of what he did in terms of creating the veil and the destruction he enacted, he was worse than them because they didn't actually do that. What he's doing now is just a repetition of his own messiah complex, so certainly not a turning bad idea. Reminds me very much of the weiss/hickman Death's Gate Cycle novel series, which features a similar notion of the earth being sundered incompetently by one arrogant group because they were afraid of what their rivals would do.
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Post by fluffysmom on May 31, 2021 18:04:28 GMT
I don’t think him not killing the Inquisitor is stupid on his part mainly because, as of Trespasser, he seems open to the possibility of a different outcome. The problem is this is only the case if the confrontation is with a romanced or friendly Inquisitor. With a hostile Inquisitor there is no suggestion that he would like to be stopped or there is the possibility of a different outcome. The only reason he saves them is to avoid the added chaos that would ensue if they die prematurely but he has every intention of continuing with his plan that will eventually cause their demise. So are we to understand that world state is doomed simply because the Inquisitor is a jerk? Why bother telling them anything at all? But a jerk Inky has the option of ‘killing’ him. And I think they will get that option in some form. Not only to satisfy those players but so that Bioware can write him out since he’s so OP. It’ll probably be a ‘trapped somewhere’ kind of thing incase they need him again. If players feel robbed by that it’s already proven they are kinda impossible to kill for good. I hope they have the cojones to do that for those want it but it’s not an option I want. lol He’s too interesting. For redeem I see him weakened and maybe helping against a bigger threat (Mythal perhaps) as an advisor, or too weak for even that. And he told them because he’s a prideful twat and could kill them instantly if he wanted. Or is partially using them to fulfill his own goal. Like helping him locate the idol perhaps? Whether Jerk or Friend it can be seen as using them or hoping they succeed by giving them nuggets of info he shouldn’t.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 18:19:02 GMT
Mind you, I don’t think Solas/Fen’harel was an ‘angel’ back then, and I’m quite eager to explore the backstory and lore of those times, but I do think that between him and the Evanuris, at least at first, he was on the good side. I do wonder though just how he acquired the reputation he has with the Dalish, particularly as even Felassan portrays him as having a dark wisdom, just as the Dalish maintain, in his stories to Briala and since she know nothing of the the Dalish legends, he didn't have to go along with their idea of him. Also, he is only on the good side if you believe him that Mythal was the one good god among the rest of them. Even there, he was supporting her in her subjugation of the dwarves and he admits after WEWH that he enjoys the intrigue and scheming of the Game. Felassan also suggests to Briala that life among the elven elite was very different to that of the Orlesian Court and their attitude and treatment of servants was pretty much the same too. So it seems to me that Solas was quite happy with his tyrant run magical world for the first few thousand years of the elven empire. He only changed because of what they did to Mythal but what if their actions were justified because of what she was doing? Incidentally I leave Ghilan'nain out of the main group of Evanuris when making these observations. From everything we have been told, she was not originally one of them, did a lot of things in secret and was powerful enough they essentially they had to bribe her to stop. Then having invited her into their ranks, she seemed to respond by fermenting trouble, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was behind the murder of Mythal. If we're talking about the Dread Wolf 'legend', he's certainly not a benign figure. Although it's a fair point that he has both a good and dark side, as Bioware itself is using the symbolism of his elven appearance the the monstrous wolf to rapresent this. I also wouldn't say Mythal was that 'good'. She might've been, compared to the other Evanuris, but she still did her fair share of horrible things. I don't think howewer that his change was due of Mythal. From what I understood, he was the leader of the rebellion against the Evanuris before Mythal's murder, and he wasn't actually a member of the Evanuris. Admittedly, though, we don't know the full story and why he rebelled against them, and who he was before that. But his hate and opposition of the Evanuris seems to predate Mythal's murder, by all indications. While I wouldn't certainly bet on any Evanuris being 'good', it is possible that they're not a monolitic group, and that some could be worse then the others, while others could have their 'good' side. As with Solas, we know little about that time and them. It's certainly one thing I want to explore more in the following game/s. I get your point, though it should be noted that there’s plenty of examples in different medias of good-aligned characters turning bad. It can be lazy, but it can also be done reasonably well. Mind you, I don’t think Solas/Fen’harel was an ‘angel’ back then, and I’m quite eager to explore the backstory and lore of those times, but I do think that between him and the Evanuris, at least at first, he was on the good side.
See personally i don't see any need to place either on the good side to the struggle of the 2 groups. They simply had conflicting ideaological stances. I don't see anything in Solas that was inherently good. Certainly in terms of what he did in terms of creating the veil and the destruction he enacted, he was worse than them because they didn't actually do that. What he's doing now is just a repetition of his own messiah complex, so certainly not a turning bad idea. Reminds me very much of the weiss/hickman Death's Gate Cycle novel series, which features a similar notion of the earth being sundered incompetently by one arrogant group because they were afraid of what their rivals would do.
What he did in regards of the Veil wasn't good, certainly, with the exception of sealing the Evanuris. But I don't think the conflict was simply a matter of different ideological stances. Based on what the Evanuris seemingly did during that time (and while it's true that we could learn more and have a different version from what Solas told, there are also other hints of them being as he described them), they were uber powerful, evil tyrants that treated lesses people as servants, if not worse. They were basically the Imperium before the Blights, only stronger then magisters. Solas *seems* to have been leading a rebellion against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the good side, at least in the part of leading a rebellion against the Evanuris. Could we learn that he had his own selfish reasons to do that? That he wanted to rule the world, or even learn more of his backstory that would make him look no better then the Evanuris he described? Certainly. But if that happens, it would mean that both sides were bad. It's like the war between the Imperium and the Qun, to me at least.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 18:32:25 GMT
See personally i don't see any need to place either on the good side to the struggle of the 2 groups. They simply had conflicting ideaological stances. I don't see anything in Solas that was inherently good. Certainly in terms of what he did in terms of creating the veil and the destruction he enacted, he was worse than them because they didn't actually do that. What he's doing now is just a repetition of his own messiah complex, so certainly not a turning bad idea. Reminds me very much of the weiss/hickman Death's Gate Cycle novel series, which features a similar notion of the earth being sundered incompetently by one arrogant group because they were afraid of what their rivals would do.
What he did in regards of the Veil wasn't good, certainly, with the exception of sealing the Evanuris. But I don't think the conflict was simply a matter of different ideological stances. Based on what the Evanuris seemingly did during that time (and while it's true that we could learn more and have a different version from what Solas told, there are also other hints of them being as he described them), they were uber powerful, evil tyrants that treated lesses people as servants, if not worse. They were basically the Imperium before the Blights, only stronger then magisters. Solas *seems* to have been leading a rebellion against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the good side, at least in the part of leading a rebellion against the Evanuris. Could we learn that he had his own selfish reasons to do that? That he wanted to rule the world, or even learn more of his backstory that would make him look no better then the Evanuris he described? Certainly. But if that happens, it would mean that both sides were bad. It's like the war between the Imperium and the Qun, to me at least. They Uber powerful kings, rulers of a successful thriving empire.
Solas seems to have been leading a terrorist campaign against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the bad side.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 18:47:15 GMT
What he did in regards of the Veil wasn't good, certainly, with the exception of sealing the Evanuris. But I don't think the conflict was simply a matter of different ideological stances. Based on what the Evanuris seemingly did during that time (and while it's true that we could learn more and have a different version from what Solas told, there are also other hints of them being as he described them), they were uber powerful, evil tyrants that treated lesses people as servants, if not worse. They were basically the Imperium before the Blights, only stronger then magisters. Solas *seems* to have been leading a rebellion against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the good side, at least in the part of leading a rebellion against the Evanuris. Could we learn that he had his own selfish reasons to do that? That he wanted to rule the world, or even learn more of his backstory that would make him look no better then the Evanuris he described? Certainly. But if that happens, it would mean that both sides were bad. It's like the war between the Imperium and the Qun, to me at least. They Uber powerful kings, rulers of a successful thriving empire. Solas seems to have been leading a terrorist campaign against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the bad side. There is no information that paint the Evanuris as being simply kings and rulers of a succesful thriving empire, if not for the earlier stages of their rule. Even the hints in Descent and Tevinter Nights about them paint the picture of greedy tyrants with little care about others, and more busy in fighting among themeselves then caring about their subjects. With perhaps one exception, and even her had her dark side. To be clear, I don't care if, as a plot twist, it'll be revealed that Solas was lying all along, that any other hints of their evil acts were false, that even the Vallaslin wasn't used to mark slaves, and that Solas was trying to overthrow the Evanuris to get to rule Elvhenan. I don't have any stake in this debate, and I don't care which side is bad, or if both were bad. But there's no indication, right now, that the Evanuris were good, benign rulers and that Solas was simply a terrorist. If you want to believe that everything Solas told is a lie, fair enough.
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Post by fluffysmom on May 31, 2021 19:04:10 GMT
What he did in regards of the Veil wasn't good, certainly, with the exception of sealing the Evanuris. But I don't think the conflict was simply a matter of different ideological stances. Based on what the Evanuris seemingly did during that time (and while it's true that we could learn more and have a different version from what Solas told, there are also other hints of them being as he described them), they were uber powerful, evil tyrants that treated lesses people as servants, if not worse. They were basically the Imperium before the Blights, only stronger then magisters. Solas *seems* to have been leading a rebellion against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the good side, at least in the part of leading a rebellion against the Evanuris. Could we learn that he had his own selfish reasons to do that? That he wanted to rule the world, or even learn more of his backstory that would make him look no better then the Evanuris he described? Certainly. But if that happens, it would mean that both sides were bad. It's like the war between the Imperium and the Qun, to me at least. They Uber powerful kings, rulers of a successful thriving empire.
Solas seems to have been leading a terrorist campaign against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the bad side. Let’s say that we can take most of the codex’s at face value, owning slaves and slaughtering them until a river of blood flowed from his (forget which one) temple and tales of Andruil getting bored and hunting her own people for sport doesn’t exactly scream thriving empire. I’m sure it was at one point. But that stopped being true. If they were feeding off the Titan’s and Mythal had to kill them and bury the supply and the other gods went into a rage and killed her, how long before they killed Solas? Leaving the elven people to an unimaginable horror of mad gods who no longer cared for them. If every alternative was actually worse? He couldn’t take them on alone obviously so he had to seal them and save what he could which had consequences he didn’t expect. You do what you can while you still have time because I wouldn’t be surprised if they started hunting him like a dog (haha) if they knew he had a role in sealing the titans as well.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 19:27:45 GMT
They Uber powerful kings, rulers of a successful thriving empire. Solas seems to have been leading a terrorist campaign against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the bad side. There is no information that paint the Evanuris as being simply kings and rulers of a succesful thriving empire, if not for the earlier stages of their rule. Even the hints in Descent and Tevinter Nights about them paint the picture of greedy tyrants with little care about others, and more busy in fighting among themeselves then caring about their subjects. With perhaps one exception, and even her had her dark side. To be clear, I don't care if, as a plot twist, it'll be revealed that Solas was lying all along, that any other hints of their evil acts were false, that even the Vallaslin wasn't used to mark slaves, and that Solas was trying to overthrow the Evanuris to get to rule Elvhenan. I don't have any stake in this debate, and I don't care which side is bad, or if both were bad. But there's no indication, right now, that the Evanuris were good, benign rulers and that Solas was simply a terrorist. If you want to believe that everything Solas told is a lie, fair enough. They were generals, who became kings and then took the next step to claim godhood. Are we really suggesting that kings/generals/gods had nothing to do with the fabled cities that were built. Throwing around the world Tyrant rather than ruler doesn't make them evil. It's just twisting language to suit your goal.
Equally if they were busy fighting amongst themselves that hardly sets them apart from anyone else in history.
See i find the whole Vallaslin-slavery stuff very oversimplified and silly. Demi-gods in a fantasy setting having their followers wear magical markings seems not a huge amount of difference to subjects/servants. Clearly some of followers benefitted from being bound if well of sorrows stuff bears any weight. I struggle to see markings result in Evanuris controlling the day to day lives of their followers. Elves seemed to have left to join solas' cult so they seem rather limited in actual oversight. Solas' cult not relying on markings but on idelogical purity of beilief doesn't seem particularly better, especially when their grand plan was to nuke the world.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 19:45:15 GMT
There is no information that paint the Evanuris as being simply kings and rulers of a succesful thriving empire, if not for the earlier stages of their rule. Even the hints in Descent and Tevinter Nights about them paint the picture of greedy tyrants with little care about others, and more busy in fighting among themeselves then caring about their subjects. With perhaps one exception, and even her had her dark side. To be clear, I don't care if, as a plot twist, it'll be revealed that Solas was lying all along, that any other hints of their evil acts were false, that even the Vallaslin wasn't used to mark slaves, and that Solas was trying to overthrow the Evanuris to get to rule Elvhenan. I don't have any stake in this debate, and I don't care which side is bad, or if both were bad. But there's no indication, right now, that the Evanuris were good, benign rulers and that Solas was simply a terrorist. If you want to believe that everything Solas told is a lie, fair enough. They were generals, who became kings and then took the next step to claim godhood. Are we really suggesting that kings/generals/gods had nothing to do with the fabled cities that were built. Throwing around the world Tyrant rather than ruler doesn't make them evil. It's just twisting language to suit your goal.
Equally if they were busy fighting amongst themselves that hardly sets them apart from anyone else in history.
See i find the whole Vallaslin-slavery stuff very oversimplified and silly. Demi-gods in a fantasy setting having their followers wear magical markings seems not a huge amount of difference to subjects/servants. Clearly some of followers benefitted from being bound if well of sorrows stuff bears any weight. I struggle to see markings result in Evanuris controlling the day to day lives of their followers. Elves seemed to have left to join solas' cult so they seem rather limited in actual oversight. Solas' cult not relying on markings but on idelogical purity of beilief doesn't seem particularly better, especially when their grand plan was to nuke the world.
We don't know if they were truly gods. And the good things like the cities they built could've wery well happened during the earlier time of their rule, and not when their actions became much worse. I don't have any 'goal'. I'm only basing my opinion on them on the sparce informations we have on them. I already said that I don't care if they turn out to be better then as they're currently portrayed, and if Solas turns out to be worse then he (already) is. I'm not 'aligned' with Solas over them. I see both as big threats for Thedas, and if I'd have any choice on the matter, I'd stop the first while preventing him to unleash them on Thedas. I'm not going to assume if you have a preference on the matter, as you did with me. To clarify, I don't think the Evanuris are worse then other organizations in Thedas, like the Imperium or the Qun. The only difference is that they're much more powerful, and more dangerous for that. The fact that demi-gods in other fantasy settings use markings on their followers, doesn't mean that the Evanuris didn't do that only on their slaves, other then possibly Mythal. Is it possible that they didn't just mark their slaves? Sure. It doesn't change the fact that they used slaves. If I'm going to use this against the Imperium, why wouldn't I use it against the Evanuris? And I never mentioned Solas' beliefs being better then them. All I did say is that marking slaves with their symbols is wrong, if it turns out to be true. I don't think Solas' plan was originally to nuke the world, though. That seemed to be a reaction to Mythal's death.
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