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Post by xerrai on May 31, 2021 19:53:38 GMT
What he did in regards of the Veil wasn't good, certainly, with the exception of sealing the Evanuris. But I don't think the conflict was simply a matter of different ideological stances. Based on what the Evanuris seemingly did during that time (and while it's true that we could learn more and have a different version from what Solas told, there are also other hints of them being as he described them), they were uber powerful, evil tyrants that treated lesses people as servants, if not worse. They were basically the Imperium before the Blights, only stronger then magisters. Solas *seems* to have been leading a rebellion against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the good side, at least in the part of leading a rebellion against the Evanuris. Could we learn that he had his own selfish reasons to do that? That he wanted to rule the world, or even learn more of his backstory that would make him look no better then the Evanuris he described? Certainly. But if that happens, it would mean that both sides were bad. It's like the war between the Imperium and the Qun, to me at least. They Uber powerful kings, rulers of a successful thriving empire.
Solas seems to have been leading a terrorist campaign against them. If this part holds true, he was definitely on the bad side. And? It is still possible to have a "successful thriving empire" and still be 'bad'. Just look at the Old Tevinter Imperium. It was, by every observable definition, successful and thriving. Magical and technological development, massive expansion, rising economic power, the building of wonders, and so on. But that still didn't erase the fact the empire relied on (and continues to rely) on slaves and their abuse. Egregious abuse. And when Andraste, Shartan, and the rest came with their overbearing armies and no doubt slaughtered noble families, their knights, and their servants, I am sure she would fall under the label of "terrorist". Another example would be the Qunari. Their society is known for their technological advances, advanced standards of living, and a powerful military. That's a successful and thriving empire as well. But we all know there is a cost to that. Freedom is limited for everyone because every person is forced to perform their predetermined role or risk punishment (or re-education), and even they have their own slave class in the form of the quameked viddath-bas who they basically reduced to animals of burden. A terrorist taking down that society in the name of freeing those victims would no doubt be bloody and result in serious collateral damage. But you can certainly see why several people would join that cause and call it 'good'. Even if we assume the evanuris were not overly malicious and mustache-twirling villains, that doesn't erase the heavy implications that Elvhenan had an underclass that was clearly unpleased with their situation and were willing to throw their lot in with Solas to change it. In fact I'd say its pretty much confirmed at this point. It likely wasn't limited to just the elves either, but the dwarves and possibly even humans. The only question now is just how badly they were treated, and evidence is pointing toward badly for a good chunk of them. When Andruil has people praying "Spare us the moment we become Your prey" and Elgar'nan has a monument made in a single afternoon by a "thousand-thousand toiling servants" who were later explicitly referred to as "slaves" in the same codex entry....yeah. Unless we learn that these refer to criminal cannibals or something, it looks like their successful thriving empire had a few fundamental problems that likely leaned toward the morally reprehensible.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 19:53:58 GMT
I don't trust a single word Solas says besides his plans to destroy the modern world and kill everyone in it (humans, dwarves, qunari, modern elves, and so on) to restore his world. He is the God of Deception after all, and everything else he told us before had been lies, either commission or omission, so why trust him now? He may be right, but so far our only sources are either from him or his followers so not really good objective sources.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 20:02:53 GMT
I don't trust a single word Solas says besides his plans to destroy the modern world and kill everyone in it (humans, dwarves, qunari, modern elves, and so on) to restore his world. He is the God of Deception after all, and everything else he told us before had been lies, either commission or omission, so why trust him now? He may be right, but so far our only sources are either from him or his followers so not really good objective sources. We have hints that seem to be corroborate what he said, from Abelas and the murder of Mythal, to Descent and Tevinter Nights, in regards of the Evanuris being bad. And I don't see why Solas would lie to the Inquisitor. It'd make sense if he was trying to recruit them for the cause, but he wasn't doing that. But if you want to use that logic, I can't argue with that. It's a fair reasoning. I just don't agree with it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 20:08:01 GMT
I don't trust a single word Solas says besides his plans to destroy the modern world and kill everyone in it (humans, dwarves, qunari, modern elves, and so on) to restore his world. He is the God of Deception after all, and everything else he told us before had been lies, either commission or omission, so why trust him now? He may be right, but so far our only sources are either from him or his followers so not really good objective sources. We have hints that seem to be corroborate what he said, from Abelas and the murder of Mythal, to Descent and Tevinter Nights, in regards of the Evanuris being bad. And I don't see why Solas would lie to the Inquisitor. It'd make sense if he was trying to recruit them for the cause, but he wasn't doing that. But if you want to use that logic, I can't argue with that. It's a fair reasoning. I just don't agree with it. Again, those hints come from those who side with his side of the conflict so are biased. In our world, using just sources from one side would not be seen as an academically sound argument. Why wouldn't he lie? The lie paints him in a sympathetic light that can be used to his advantage in a number of different ways. And it may not be a lie in the sense that he genuinely believes what he is saying even if the truth differs. That's why his plans are the only thing from him I believe, since lying about genocide does not serve him in any way.
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Post by fluffysmom on May 31, 2021 20:14:33 GMT
I don't trust a single word Solas says besides his plans to destroy the modern world and kill everyone in it (humans, dwarves, qunari, modern elves, and so on) to restore his world. He is the God of Deception after all, and everything else he told us before had been lies, either commission or omission, so why trust him now? He may be right, but so far our only sources are either from him or his followers so not really good objective sources. We have hints that seem to be corroborate what he said, from Abelas and the murder of Mythal, to Descent and Tevinter Nights, in regards of the Evanuris being bad. And I don't see why Solas would lie to the Inquisitor. It'd make sense if he was trying to recruit them for the cause, but he wasn't doing that. But if you want to use that logic, I can't argue with that. It's a fair reasoning. I just don't agree with it. This. Weekes even states in an interview that Solas doesn’t outright lie. He just doesn’t tell you everything. They struggled with his dialogue for this very reason. It’s the VGS interview which can be found on youtube. Helped me understand a lot of what they were going for. Even Solas states it’s by omission. He tells you only what you need not necessarily what you want.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 20:17:37 GMT
We have hints that seem to be corroborate what he said, from Abelas and the murder of Mythal, to Descent and Tevinter Nights, in regards of the Evanuris being bad. And I don't see why Solas would lie to the Inquisitor. It'd make sense if he was trying to recruit them for the cause, but he wasn't doing that. But if you want to use that logic, I can't argue with that. It's a fair reasoning. I just don't agree with it. This. Weekes even states in an interview that Solas doesn’t outright lie. He just doesn’t tell you everything. They struggled with his dialogue for this very reason. It’s the VGS interview which can be found on youtube. Helped me understand a lot of what they were going for. Even Solas states it’s by omission. He tells you only what you need not necessarily what you want. So he is lying. You just said even he says he's lying by omission.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 20:18:14 GMT
We have hints that seem to be corroborate what he said, from Abelas and the murder of Mythal, to Descent and Tevinter Nights, in regards of the Evanuris being bad. And I don't see why Solas would lie to the Inquisitor. It'd make sense if he was trying to recruit them for the cause, but he wasn't doing that. But if you want to use that logic, I can't argue with that. It's a fair reasoning. I just don't agree with it. Again, those hints come from those who side with his side of the conflict so are biased. In our world, using just sources from one side would not be seen as an academically sound argument. Why wouldn't he lie? The lie paints him in a sympathetic light that can be used to his advantage in a number of different ways. And it may not be a lie in the sense that he genuinely believes what he is saying even if the truth differs. That's why his plans are the only thing from him I believe, since lying about genocide does not serve him in any way. The problem is that we don't have other sources on the matter. Unless we consider dalish legends to be sources...why they're not. I'm not saying that what he said is necessarily true, but there's no indication at the moment that he's lying. When and if we'll find new sources on the conflict and the Evanuris culture, I'd be happy to weight both. But we can't say that there are sources on the Evanuris being good, benign rulers, at the current moment. It doesn't serve him any purpose to lie to the Inquisitor, as it didn't give him any advantage in regards of of his plans. The Inquisitor still decides to try and stop him. He has no reason to tell them his story, regardless if it's the truth or not, either. He didn't need to. He could've very well took the hand left. Again, I'm not denying that there's the possibility he's lying. I'm just not assuming he isn't without any actual sources contradicting him. I don't care one way or another if his story is true or not. I just hope that nobody is believing that he's lying because they don't want his story to be true, and end up disappointed if the Evanuris ends up to as bad as he claims.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 20:19:51 GMT
This. Weekes even states in an interview that Solas doesn’t outright lie. He just doesn’t tell you everything. They struggled with his dialogue for this very reason. It’s the VGS interview which can be found on youtube. Helped me understand a lot of what they were going for. Even Solas states it’s by omission. He tells you only what you need not necessarily what you want. So he is lying. You just said even he says he's lying by omission. I'd say that would mean he's keeping secrets on himself and how 'good' his intention were back then, not that he's necessarily lying about how bad the Evanuris were. One way or another, I hope we'll find more about that period and conflict.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 20:21:54 GMT
They were generals, who became kings and then took the next step to claim godhood. Are we really suggesting that kings/generals/gods had nothing to do with the fabled cities that were built. Throwing around the world Tyrant rather than ruler doesn't make them evil. It's just twisting language to suit your goal.
Equally if they were busy fighting amongst themselves that hardly sets them apart from anyone else in history.
See i find the whole Vallaslin-slavery stuff very oversimplified and silly. Demi-gods in a fantasy setting having their followers wear magical markings seems not a huge amount of difference to subjects/servants. Clearly some of followers benefitted from being bound if well of sorrows stuff bears any weight. I struggle to see markings result in Evanuris controlling the day to day lives of their followers. Elves seemed to have left to join solas' cult so they seem rather limited in actual oversight. Solas' cult not relying on markings but on idelogical purity of beilief doesn't seem particularly better, especially when their grand plan was to nuke the world.
We don't know if they were truly gods. And the good things like the cities they built could've wery well happened during the earlier time of their rule, and not when their actions became much worse. I don't have any 'goal'. I'm only basing my opinion on them on the sparce informations we have on them. I already said that I don't care if they turn out to be better then as they're currently portrayed, and if Solas turns out to be worse then he (already) is. I'm not 'aligned' with Solas over them. I see both as big threats for Thedas, and if I'd have any choice on the matter, I'd stop the first while preventing him to unleash them on Thedas. I'm not going to assume if you have a preference on the matter, as you did with me. To clarify, I don't think the Evanuris are worse then other organizations in Thedas, like the Imperium or the Qun. The only difference is that they're much more powerful, and more dangerous for that. The fact that demi-gods in other fantasy settings use markings on their followers, doesn't mean that the Evanuris didn't do that only on their slaves, other then possibly Mythal. Is it possible that they didn't just mark their slaves? Sure. It doesn't change the fact that they used slaves. If I'm going to use this against the Imperium, why wouldn't I use it against the Evanuris? And I never mentioned Solas' beliefs being better then them. All I did say is that marking slaves with their symbols is wrong, if it turns out to be true. I don't think Solas' plan was originally to nuke the world, though. That seemed to be a reaction to Mythal's death. They’d probably consider the term worshipper or follower rather than slave considering they saw themselves as Gods. So i’d want to know what did it entail. In the imperium individual magisters have slaves they directly control, which fits real world connotations. Does a ðemi god with my guess thousands/millions of followers, how exactly are they directly controlling the day to day activities of those individuals in that way. Who cares what Solas’s original plan. He arbitrarilly decides nuking the world and remaking it is his right. He acts like a god even he prefers the idea of being a cult leader instead.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 20:27:56 GMT
Again, those hints come from those who side with his side of the conflict so are biased. In our world, using just sources from one side would not be seen as an academically sound argument. Why wouldn't he lie? The lie paints him in a sympathetic light that can be used to his advantage in a number of different ways. And it may not be a lie in the sense that he genuinely believes what he is saying even if the truth differs. That's why his plans are the only thing from him I believe, since lying about genocide does not serve him in any way. The problem is that we don't have other sources on the matter. Unless we consider dalish legends to be sources...why they're not. I'm not saying that what he said is necessarily true, but there's no indication at the moment that he's lying. When and if we'll find new sources on the conflict and the Evanuris culture, I'd be happy to weight both. But we can't say that there are sources on the Evanuris being good, benign rulers, at the current moment. It doesn't serve him any purpose to lie to the Inquisitor, as it didn't give him any advantage in regards of of his plans. The Inquisitor still decides to try and stop him. He has no reason to tell them his story, regardless if it's the truth or not, either. He didn't need to. He could've very well took the hand left. Again, I'm not denying that there's the possibility he's lying. I'm just not assuming he isn't without any actual sources contradicting him. I don't care one way or another if his story is true or not. I just hope that nobody is believing that he's lying because they don't want his story to be true, and end up disappointed if the Evanuris ends up to as bad as he claims. Very true, we don't. And who do we have to thank for that, I wonder? Well, legends can be considered sources. Not very good ones certainly, but sometimes they can be useful. Look at discovering the ruins of Troy for example. And if not sources for historical events, they can be better sources for a civilization's views of events which lets us get a glimpse at their culture. Sure it does. For example, like I said it paints him in a sympathetic light which might hold the Inquisitor back from stopping him by trying to save him instead. It makes the Inquisitor look for potential other ways to achieve his goal without global genocide, something he admits he looks forward to, thus gives him possibly more options for his ends. There's no possibility of him lying. He is lying. By omission if nothing else, which can be just as bad. I'm assuming he is because we have lots of sources about him lying, such as the entire time he spent with us. If someone exhibits a pattern, usually they won't stop. That's not why I see him lying. To be honest, I'm sick of the ancient elves especially since more and more they are being used as the explanation for everything which really hurts the world. My ideal scenario is at the end keeping them imprisoned but throwing Solas into that same prison, trapping him with them forever. He did kill Mythal after all, so he deserves the same eternity of torment they did. So he is lying. You just said even he says he's lying by omission. I'd say that would mean he's keeping secrets on himself and how 'good' his intention were back then, not that he's necessarily lying about how bad the Evanuris were. One way or another, I hope we'll find more about that period and conflict. Again, keeping secrets to make yourself seem better thus excuse your crimes are still lies. It's why that kind of stuff is punished in courts, ad why before testifying you swear to tell the whole truth instead of just the truth. I'd also say he breaks the 'nothing but the truth' since he is using character lies as well.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 20:30:21 GMT
We don't know if they were truly gods. And the good things like the cities they built could've wery well happened during the earlier time of their rule, and not when their actions became much worse. I don't have any 'goal'. I'm only basing my opinion on them on the sparce informations we have on them. I already said that I don't care if they turn out to be better then as they're currently portrayed, and if Solas turns out to be worse then he (already) is. I'm not 'aligned' with Solas over them. I see both as big threats for Thedas, and if I'd have any choice on the matter, I'd stop the first while preventing him to unleash them on Thedas. I'm not going to assume if you have a preference on the matter, as you did with me. To clarify, I don't think the Evanuris are worse then other organizations in Thedas, like the Imperium or the Qun. The only difference is that they're much more powerful, and more dangerous for that. The fact that demi-gods in other fantasy settings use markings on their followers, doesn't mean that the Evanuris didn't do that only on their slaves, other then possibly Mythal. Is it possible that they didn't just mark their slaves? Sure. It doesn't change the fact that they used slaves. If I'm going to use this against the Imperium, why wouldn't I use it against the Evanuris? And I never mentioned Solas' beliefs being better then them. All I did say is that marking slaves with their symbols is wrong, if it turns out to be true. I don't think Solas' plan was originally to nuke the world, though. That seemed to be a reaction to Mythal's death. They’d probably consider the term worshipper or follower rather than slave considering they saw themselves as Gods. So i’d want to know what did it entail. In the imperium individual magisters have slaves they directly control, which fits real world connotations. Does a ðemi god with my guess thousands/millions of followers, how exactly are they directly controlling the day to day activities of those individuals in that way. Who cares what Solas’s original plan. He arbitrarilly decides nuking the world and remaking it is his right. He acts like a god even he prefers the idea of being a cult leader instead. The fact that considered themselves Gods don't mean they couldn't consider a part of their populations slaves. Expecially if the Imperium mimicked the Evanuris' society. It is possible their society was composed by free people and slaves. You correlated Solas and his followers' beliefs with the fact that their plan was to nuke the world, that's why I mentioned the fact that it wasn't his original plan, and why others joined him. I doubt his followers were okay with him doing what he did.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 20:36:44 GMT
The problem is that we don't have other sources on the matter. Unless we consider dalish legends to be sources...why they're not. I'm not saying that what he said is necessarily true, but there's no indication at the moment that he's lying. When and if we'll find new sources on the conflict and the Evanuris culture, I'd be happy to weight both. But we can't say that there are sources on the Evanuris being good, benign rulers, at the current moment. It doesn't serve him any purpose to lie to the Inquisitor, as it didn't give him any advantage in regards of of his plans. The Inquisitor still decides to try and stop him. He has no reason to tell them his story, regardless if it's the truth or not, either. He didn't need to. He could've very well took the hand left. Again, I'm not denying that there's the possibility he's lying. I'm just not assuming he isn't without any actual sources contradicting him. I don't care one way or another if his story is true or not. I just hope that nobody is believing that he's lying because they don't want his story to be true, and end up disappointed if the Evanuris ends up to as bad as he claims. Very true, we don't. And who do we have to thank for that, I wonder? Well, legends can be considered sources. Not very good ones certainly, but sometimes they can be useful. Look at discovering the ruins of Troy for example. And if not sources for historical events, they can be better sources for a civilization's views of events which lets us get a glimpse at their culture. Sure it does. For example, like I said it paints him in a sympathetic light which might hold the Inquisitor back from stopping him by trying to save him instead. It makes the Inquisitor look for potential other ways to achieve his goal without global genocide, something he admits he looks forward to, thus gives him possibly more options for his ends. There's no possibility of him lying. He is lying. By omission if nothing else, which can be just as bad. I'm assuming he is because we have lots of sources about him lying, such as the entire time he spent with us. If someone exhibits a pattern, usually they won't stop. That's not why I see him lying. To be honest, I'm sick of the ancient elves especially since more and more they are being used as the explanation for everything which really hurts the world. My ideal scenario is at the end keeping them imprisoned but throwing Solas into that same prison, trapping him with them forever. He did kill Mythal after all, so he deserves the same eternity of torment they did. If he wanted to rule the world and making him known as a sort of saviour in Thedas, though, why would he want to bring the old world back? He said himself that the Evanuris would be freed. They can easily disprove his lies. I get your point of wanting to save him, but the best way to weaken the Inquisition for his advantage, even more if the Inquisitor would try to save him, is to kill the Inquisitor. If his plan was to gain an advantage in that situation, killing the Inquisitor would have gained him the most advantageous position. I'm not saying he never lied. It doesn't mean he's lying, necessarily, about the Evanuris. I know you don't. Our ideal scenarios are also quite similar. But I do think there's the possibility of some wanting him to be lying about the Evanuris because they don't want that to be true.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 20:44:31 GMT
Very true, we don't. And who do we have to thank for that, I wonder? Well, legends can be considered sources. Not very good ones certainly, but sometimes they can be useful. Look at discovering the ruins of Troy for example. And if not sources for historical events, they can be better sources for a civilization's views of events which lets us get a glimpse at their culture. Sure it does. For example, like I said it paints him in a sympathetic light which might hold the Inquisitor back from stopping him by trying to save him instead. It makes the Inquisitor look for potential other ways to achieve his goal without global genocide, something he admits he looks forward to, thus gives him possibly more options for his ends. There's no possibility of him lying. He is lying. By omission if nothing else, which can be just as bad. I'm assuming he is because we have lots of sources about him lying, such as the entire time he spent with us. If someone exhibits a pattern, usually they won't stop. That's not why I see him lying. To be honest, I'm sick of the ancient elves especially since more and more they are being used as the explanation for everything which really hurts the world. My ideal scenario is at the end keeping them imprisoned but throwing Solas into that same prison, trapping him with them forever. He did kill Mythal after all, so he deserves the same eternity of torment they did. If he wanted to rule the world and making him known as a sort of saviour in Thedas, though, why would he want to bring the old world back? He said himself that the Evanuris would be freed. They can easily disprove his lies. I get your point of wanting to save him, but the best way to weaken the Inquisition for his advantage, even more if the Inquisitor would try to save him, is to kill the Inquisitor. If his plan was to gain an advantage in that situation, killing the Inquisitor would have gained him the most advantageous position. I'm not saying he never lied. It doesn't mean he's lying, necessarily, about the Evanuris. I know you don't. Our ideal scenarios are also quite similar. But I do think there's the possibility of some wanting him to be lying about the Evanuris because they don't want that to be true. Well by then the only survivors at most would be those supporting him (probably just the spirits since he is most likely using modern elves as pawns telling them they'll live despite them dying to. After all he only considers the spirits his people, not elves) so they'd be indoctrinated to his way of thinking. THey'd just see the Evanuris as the liars, while Solas is their savior. That's if they even got the chance to speak, since he "had plans" to deal with them. Fair point. As I've said before Trespasser definitely seemed more a giant ingame commercial for DA4, destroying DAI, the Inquisitor, good writing, etc and throwing them away like trash afterwards in the process.
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 20:50:19 GMT
If he wanted to rule the world and making him known as a sort of saviour in Thedas, though, why would he want to bring the old world back? He said himself that the Evanuris would be freed. They can easily disprove his lies. I get your point of wanting to save him, but the best way to weaken the Inquisition for his advantage, even more if the Inquisitor would try to save him, is to kill the Inquisitor. If his plan was to gain an advantage in that situation, killing the Inquisitor would have gained him the most advantageous position. I'm not saying he never lied. It doesn't mean he's lying, necessarily, about the Evanuris. I know you don't. Our ideal scenarios are also quite similar. But I do think there's the possibility of some wanting him to be lying about the Evanuris because they don't want that to be true. Well by then the only survivors at most would be those supporting him (probably just the spirits since he is most likely using modern elves as pawns telling them they'll live despite them dying to. After all he only considers the spirits his people, not elves) so they'd be indoctrinated to his way of thinking. THey'd just see the Evanuris as the liars, while Solas is their savior. That's if they even got the chance to speak, since he "had plans" to deal with them. Fair point. As I've said before Trespasser definitely seemed more a giant ingame commercial for DA4, destroying DAI, the Inquisitor, good writing, etc and throwing them away like trash afterwards in the process. I doubt he's currently powerful enough to deal with them, considering he wasn't seemingly able to before. Maybe he plans to find ways to increase his powers, but I still think it's a dangerous bet. I wouldn't put is as you said, but I do think that Trespasser was meant to set up DA4. But the Evanuris reveal, and the fact that some might not want it to be true, might have more to do with the fact that it'd paint the elves and the elven 'gods' in a bad light, more then anything else.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 20:53:42 GMT
Well by then the only survivors at most would be those supporting him (probably just the spirits since he is most likely using modern elves as pawns telling them they'll live despite them dying to. After all he only considers the spirits his people, not elves) so they'd be indoctrinated to his way of thinking. THey'd just see the Evanuris as the liars, while Solas is their savior. That's if they even got the chance to speak, since he "had plans" to deal with them. Fair point. As I've said before Trespasser definitely seemed more a giant ingame commercial for DA4, destroying DAI, the Inquisitor, good writing, etc and throwing them away like trash afterwards in the process. I doubt he's currently powerful enough to deal with them, considering he wasn't seemingly able to before. Maybe he plans to find ways to increase his powers, but I still think it's a dangerous bet. I wouldn't put is as you said, but I do think that Trespasser was meant to set up DA4. But the Evanuris reveal, and the fact that some might not want it to be true, might have more to do with the fact that it'd paint the elves and the elven 'gods' in a bad light, more then anything else. I don't think he is either, nor do I think his plans would work. After all if we've learned one thing, it's that his plans always either fail and/or make things worse for him as well as everyone else. If the Inquisitor was returning as the protagonist, I wouldn't see it that way either. But they aren't, so that's exactly what they did.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 20:59:12 GMT
They’d probably consider the term worshipper or follower rather than slave considering they saw themselves as Gods. So i’d want to know what did it entail. In the imperium individual magisters have slaves they directly control, which fits real world connotations. Does a ðemi god with my guess thousands/millions of followers, how exactly are they directly controlling the day to day activities of those individuals in that way. Who cares what Solas’s original plan. He arbitrarilly decides nuking the world and remaking it is his right. He acts like a god even he prefers the idea of being a cult leader instead. The fact that considered themselves Gods don't mean they couldn't consider a part of their populations slaves. Expecially if the Imperium mimicked the Evanuris' society. It is possible their society was composed by free people and slaves. You correlated Solas and his followers' beliefs with the fact that their plan was to nuke the world, that's why I mentioned the fact that it wasn't his original plan, and why others joined him. I doubt his followers were okay with him doing what he did. High ranking temple members seem to have markings. To me Seems a bit odd God’s would let a rank of people in middle then be free of markings. We don’t know enough about their civilization stratosphere’s operated. If they consider part of population their slaves what does that mean versus free worshippers. Tevinter mimicked but magisters don’t have power of evanuris to elevate themselves. So it’s hard to tell if it’s a mirror image or if facets developed to ensure system worked without that omnipotence. Why wouldn’t his followers be ok with his plan. His plan plan was to nuke the world and remake it into their utopia free of evanuris. The fact his plan was an utter failure that backfired devastating elves and now he’s scrambling to undo it just proves he’s an idiot but that cultists often believe idiots and their nonsense.
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Post by fluffysmom on May 31, 2021 20:59:59 GMT
This. Weekes even states in an interview that Solas doesn’t outright lie. He just doesn’t tell you everything. They struggled with his dialogue for this very reason. It’s the VGS interview which can be found on youtube. Helped me understand a lot of what they were going for. Even Solas states it’s by omission. He tells you only what you need not necessarily what you want. So he is lying. You just said even he says he's lying by omission. Whether by omission is a lie is subjective. If you ask me a question about my childhood and I tell you moments from it and not every single detail, am I lying by considering the rest none of your business or irrelevant? He doesn’t need to tell us every single thing because what good would it do? If he had told us from the very beginning the orb was his and he was Fen’harel it would have done nothing but distract the Inquisition from the current, real threat which was Cory and the Breach. Cass and Leliana would have tried to kill him out of grief over the Divine most likely. I guess Inky would have waved their hand at the Breach eventually before it killed them because it was expanding rather rapidly at the beginning. He is an elven apostate who learned magic on his own. Solas is one of his names. He tells you what you need to get the job done and save the day. But again, it’s subjective. Once again, we’ll just have to disagree. Does Blackwall even outright state he’s a warden? I’m making my head hurt now. lol
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 21:07:21 GMT
The fact that considered themselves Gods don't mean they couldn't consider a part of their populations slaves. Expecially if the Imperium mimicked the Evanuris' society. It is possible their society was composed by free people and slaves. You correlated Solas and his followers' beliefs with the fact that their plan was to nuke the world, that's why I mentioned the fact that it wasn't his original plan, and why others joined him. I doubt his followers were okay with him doing what he did. High ranking temple members seem to have markings. To me Seems a bit odd God’s would let a rank of people in middle then be free of markings. We don’t know enough about their civilization stratosphere’s operated. If they consider part of population their slaves what does that mean versus free worshippers. Tevinter mimicked but magisters don’t have power of evanuris to elevate themselves. So it’s hard to tell if it’s a mirror image or if facets developed to ensure system worked without that omnipotence. Why wouldn’t his followers be ok with his plan. His plan plan was to nuke the world and remake it into their utopia free of evanuris. The fact his plan was an utter failure that backfired devastating elves and now he’s scrambling to undo it just proves he’s an idiot but that cultists often believe idiots and their nonsense. The difference between the Evanuris and the magisters is that the latter weren't as powerful, true. It doesn't mean that their society couldn't be similar, with the only different being their power levels. His plan was to defeat the Evanuris, and free the elven people from their rule, according to him. He could be lying, but if his plan was always to nuke the world, and not just defeat the Evanuris, he would've done that even before Mythal's murder. The nuking bit seems to me more an act of irrational revenge towards the Evanuris because they killed Mythal, that something planned from the start.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 21:08:46 GMT
So he is lying. You just said even he says he's lying by omission. Whether by omission is a lie is subjective. If you ask me a question about my childhood and I tell you moments from it and not every single detail, am I lying by considering the rest none of your business or irrelevant? He doesn’t need to tell us every single thing because what good would it do? If he had told us from the very beginning the orb was his and he was Fen’harel it would have done nothing but distract the Inquisition from the current, real threat which was Cory and the Breach. Cass and Leliana would have tried to kill him out of grief over the Divine most likely. I guess Inky would have waved their hand at the Breach eventually before it killed them because it was expanding rather rapidly at the beginning. He is an elven apostate who learned magic on his own. Solas is one of his names. He tells you what you need to get the job done and save the day. But again, it’s subjective. Once again, we’ll just have to disagree. Does Blackwall even outright state he’s a warden? I’m making my head hurt now. lol No, it's not subjective. By omission is objectively a kind of lie. That's why for example testifying in court you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That phrase is literally you swearing not to tell any of the three kinds of lies: commission, omission, and character respectively. And if you are purposely keeping key facts from your past that are relevant to a current situation a secret, then yes you are lying by omission. You just proved my point that he lies to serve his own purposes. He lies to the Inquisition to use them to fetch the dog's ball back and save him from Corypheus (since as we see in the Dark Future, he can't save himself).
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 21:27:28 GMT
High ranking temple members seem to have markings. To me Seems a bit odd God’s would let a rank of people in middle then be free of markings. We don’t know enough about their civilization stratosphere’s operated. If they consider part of population their slaves what does that mean versus free worshippers. Tevinter mimicked but magisters don’t have power of evanuris to elevate themselves. So it’s hard to tell if it’s a mirror image or if facets developed to ensure system worked without that omnipotence. Why wouldn’t his followers be ok with his plan. His plan plan was to nuke the world and remake it into their utopia free of evanuris. The fact his plan was an utter failure that backfired devastating elves and now he’s scrambling to undo it just proves he’s an idiot but that cultists often believe idiots and their nonsense. The difference between the Evanuris and the magisters is that the latter weren't as powerful, true. It doesn't mean that their society couldn't be similar, with the only different being their power levels. His plan was to defeat the Evanuris, and free the elven people from their rule, according to him. He could be lying, but if his plan was always to nuke the world, and not just defeat the Evanuris, he would've done that even before Mythal's murder. The nuking bit seems to me more an act of irrational revenge towards the Evanuris because they killed Mythal, that something planned from the start. But the power allowed them to be seen as gods which is quite a difference, which would mean they may not have to be reliant on the rigid tevinter structure. Sorry don’t see that. The creation of the veil was part of solas’ plan to trap Evanuris. So it doesn’t seem irrational revenge for mythal. He just failed to see scale of damage and unforeseen consequence of neutering elves it would entail. Free the elves, that’s rather generic wish washy bs, was he going to force one elf one vote or some form of communism on them....
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Post by xerrai on May 31, 2021 21:34:30 GMT
This. Weekes even states in an interview that Solas doesn’t outright lie. He just doesn’t tell you everything. They struggled with his dialogue for this very reason. It’s the VGS interview which can be found on youtube. Helped me understand a lot of what they were going for. Even Solas states it’s by omission. He tells you only what you need not necessarily what you want. So he is lying. You just said even he says he's lying by omission. You can call it whatever you want, but it is an important clarification that should not be dismissed. If we oversimply and label omissions as being lies and nothing but lies, then every history textbook ever written is highly suspect because most of our opinions regarding ancient history were formed by accounts taken from empires that were either long lasting and/or won severe conflicts and wars. And we all know what they say about history and winners, right? What are the odds that they omitted or downplayed their atrocities so they can look good? Pretty high, I'd bet. Sure modern historians do their best to recreate the past by finding evidence or past accounts, but that sometimes isn't possible, and we are forced to use the account from the winning party to fill in the gaps. In other words, they have to use 'lies' to determine a record of history to the best of their ability. 'Not lies' simply don't exist because virtually every account, which are more often than not just viewpoints, has omissions that several would consider important information. So that begs a question. In a history filled with 'lies' and no account of alternative 'lies', where do the most helpful 'lies' come from? I'd start with the lies that probably not total fabrications. A lot of what Solas said is corroborated by other sources. So what if they're biased because of their viewpoints? Everyone is--especially those actively involved in a conflict. But I think we can safely assume that he is giving us a decent personal account of things (albeit failing to mention certain details). But since we lack alternative accounts, I'd honestly take that as opposed to leaving us perpetually in the dark because of a nagging doubt that was itself cast into doubt. IMO we just need to be mindful of the omissions when we take Solas's account. Not ditch it altogether. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and all that. Or making the best out of a bad situation.
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Post by fluffysmom on May 31, 2021 22:02:49 GMT
We never ask him outright if the orb was ever his. Or if he was ever an elven god. Or knew Mythal. Or who has the orb. We ask instead for his opinion or how he learned about certain things. Until I find out that he never went and viewed those things in the fade (to replay events or just relive them for old times sake) then he is not a filthy liar to me. He gave honest answers to the questions I was allowed to ask.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 31, 2021 22:17:42 GMT
There's no sensible reason to assume Solas is lying about the Evanuris to make himself sound good. If he cared about how the Inquisitor views him, why cop to planning to destroy the world in the first place?
"The Evanuris ran a successful, thriving Empire". Name ONE Empire that didn't commit horrendous atrocities to establish and maintain itself. Name ONE Empire that didn't invade, colonise, genocide, oppress and/or enslave people.
Why do people badmouth Genghis Khan? The guy ran a *successful, thriving empire*! Fuckin' LOL.
"Solas is a terrorist!" Sure, maybe, but people have overused and abused this term to the point of utter meaninglessness. Being a "terrorist" doesn't automatically mean someone is actually *wrong*. Authorities label anyone who opposes them in any meaningful way as "terrorists", whether they're even actually violent or not, because it's become an easy, manipulative way to paint protestors and rebels as generically "evil", and quash any genuine questions about what those people want and why.
"Antifa are terrorists, BLM are terrorists, Palestinians are terrorists, Mexicans are terrorists, Muslims are terrorists", but when white people commit mass shootings they're "mentally ill, confused loners", because that suits the narrative constructed by those in power.
Prior to 9/11, it was actually extremely common in fiction for the people/groups initially labelled as "terrorists" by the ruling authority to turn out to be the good guys, or at least have valid points. Final Fantasy 7 and Demolition Man immediately come to mind. Given time, I could find lots more examples. But today, the word has been stripped of all nuance, and only serves to cynically drum up anger and hate against "The Thing Whomst I Think Is Bad" while simultaneously dismissing their position, beliefs, ideas, desires, suffering, pain, etc as worthless.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2021 22:30:28 GMT
There's no sensible reason to assume Solas is lying about the Evanuris to make himself sound good. If he cared about how the Inquisitor views him, why cop to planning to destroy the world in the first place? "The Evanuris ran a successful, thriving Empire". Name ONE Empire that didn't commit horrendous atrocities to establish and maintain itself. Name ONE Empire that didn't invade, colonise, genocide, oppress and/or enslave people. Why do people badmouth Genghis Khan? The guy ran a *successful, thriving empire*! Fuckin' LOL. "Solas is a terrorist!" Sure, maybe, but people have overused and abused this term to the point of utter meaninglessness. Being a "terrorist" doesn't automatically mean someone is actually *wrong*. Authorities label anyone who opposes them as "terrorists" because it's an easy, manipulative way to paint protestors and rebels as generically "evil", and quash any genuine questions about what those people want and why. The question is what elevates that empire from every other and their misdeeds and why that justifies mass genocide as a solution. Well yeah, Language is a weapon. Terrorist is no more abused than rebel as a word. Calling yourself a rebel doesn’t make hands any cleaner and doesn’t mean you are in the right.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 31, 2021 22:32:12 GMT
There's no sensible reason to assume Solas is lying about the Evanuris to make himself sound good. If he cared about how the Inquisitor views him, why cop to planning to destroy the world in the first place? "The Evanuris ran a successful, thriving Empire". Name ONE Empire that didn't commit horrendous atrocities to establish and maintain itself. Name ONE Empire that didn't invade, colonise, genocide, oppress and/or enslave people. Why do people badmouth Genghis Khan? The guy ran a *successful, thriving empire*! Fuckin' LOL. "Solas is a terrorist!" Sure, maybe, but people have overused and abused this term to the point of utter meaninglessness. Being a "terrorist" doesn't automatically mean someone is actually *wrong*. Authorities label anyone who opposes them as "terrorists" because it's an easy, manipulative way to paint protestors and rebels as generically "evil", and quash any genuine questions about what those people want and why. The question is what elevates that empire from every other and their misdeeds and why that justifies mass genocide as a solution. Well yeah, Language is a weapon. Terrorist is no more abused than rebel as a word. Calling yourself a rebel doesn’t make hands any cleaner and doesn’t mean you are in the right. Getting your hands dirty doesn't make you bad, either, which is the point I was making that you missed. If it did, then the protagonists of Dragon Age and almosy every other video game would be complete monsters. We literally slaughter enough people to populate a small nation in service of our goals.
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