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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 20, 2021 20:29:20 GMT
Easy there... If our discussion becomes too political a mod will woop in.  Is this to the discussion I’m in? If so I’m not making it political. Just stating historical fact. And another member countered. If a debate over why the atom bombs were dropped in WWII starts up it will be off-topic and likely considered political by the mods.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 20, 2021 20:41:25 GMT
No! They are being controlled! And they will fight you, to the last one. And changing one dictator for another, doesn't fix it. Let their unholy existence end and let the ... I don't know, quintillions of souls be finally put to rest. Wouldn't you rather be dead, than surf as goo in a gigantic abomination's body, that defiles everything you stood for? I would. I'm dead, either way. "You—whatever species you came from, before the Reapers decided to preserve them? They’re dead. They died thousands of years ago..." [REAPER deactivates.] "...and now they can rest in peace." Shepard Paragon interrupt on Rannoch Exactly. You're not preserving, you're defiling their memory, their being, by turning them into Reapers. Let them rest.
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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 20, 2021 20:48:57 GMT
Now I am sure there is interstellar law from the Council provisions which probably has a lot of simularities to our interntional law...which they then probaby we have seen them violate several times throughout the series like most governments tend to.  Indeed, the council races didn't seem to have a problem uplifting the Krogan to wipe-out the Rachni and then sterilizing them (the Krogan) once the job was done.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 20, 2021 20:54:52 GMT
Now I am sure there is interstellar law from the Council provisions which probably has a lot of simularities to our interntional law...which they then probaby we have seen them violate several times throughout the series like most governments tend to. Indeed, the council races didn't seem to have a problem uplifting the Krogan to wipe-out the Rachni and then sterilizing them (the Krogan) once the job was done. or the deployment of the genophage. |
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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 20, 2021 20:59:00 GMT
Indeed, the council races didn't seem to have a problem uplifting the Krogan to wipe-out the Rachni and then sterilizing them (the Krogan) once the job was done. or the deployment of the genophage. Twice! The Turians seemed quite content to wipe out the human race during the 1st Contact War...we didn't know starting the relay was against the law.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 20, 2021 21:00:52 GMT
And that is why I am fairly certain we will wipe our selves and most life off this planet before we ever advance to the stars. Or if we do we will end up in a Warhammer 40k equivalent future. This is how history works! There is no single defining end. Things are always in motion, always changing. Neither history nor stories just stop. Like Zathras says in Babylon 5: "You are the beginning of the story, and the middle of the story, and the end of the story that creates the next great story." Yeah, and you may have noticed I complained a lot about that too. Pointless slaughter or random mercs instead of working on solving the real problems, like finding a way to stop Space Cthulhu from mulching the galaxy. I think you miss the point of that quote and how relevant it is to 40k. The entire grim dark future of only war suffering and death could have been prevented with just a few instances of forward thinking about the future. The Eldar stopping for 5 seconds to consider the effect their depravity had on the warp could have stopped the birth of Slannesh and the warp storms that destroyed the human empire. If the end of the Eldar's story set up hundreds of years of suffering and death. Souls being tormented for eternity by literal daemons.
Billions if not trillions of people dying because of the way your story ended is not the beginning of another great story. Not unless you are cenobite anyways.
From the fact the first game had to end with the Reaper short circuiting for no explained reason it was already proof there is nothing you can really do to stop them. When Sovereign says that you only exist because they allow it and will end when they desire it that isn't pure ego talking. If the Reapers were not so focused on harvesting and simply wanted to kill people the galaxy would be wiped clean of all life in quick order.
My issue with Destroy is that the consequences do not go far enough. There should be a lot more death and destruction involved in it because that is exactly the effects that it should take to stop the Reapers.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 20, 2021 21:08:03 GMT
This is how history works! There is no single defining end. Things are always in motion, always changing. Neither history nor stories just stop. Like Zathras says in Babylon 5: "You are the beginning of the story, and the middle of the story, and the end of the story that creates the next great story." Yeah, and you may have noticed I complained a lot about that too. Pointless slaughter or random mercs instead of working on solving the real problems, like finding a way to stop Space Cthulhu from mulching the galaxy. I think you miss the point of that quote and how relevant it is to 40k. The entire grim dark future of only war suffering and death could have been prevented with just a few instances of forward thinking about the future. The Eldar stopping for 5 seconds to consider the effect their depravity had on the warp could have stopped the birth of Slannesh and the warp storms that destroyed the human empire. If the end of the Eldar's story set up hundreds of years of suffering and death. Souls being tormented for eternity by literal daemons.
Billions if not trillions of people dying because of the way your story ended is not the beginning of another great story. Not unless you are cenobite anyways.
From the fact the first game had to end with the Reaper short circuiting for no explained reason it was already proof there is nothing you can really do to stop them. When Sovereign says that you only exist because they allow it and will end when they desire it that isn't pure ego talking. If the Reapers were not so focused on harvesting and simply wanted to kill people the galaxy would be wiped clean of all life in quick order.
My issue with Destroy is that the consequences do not go far enough. There should be a lot more death and destruction involved in it because that is exactly the effects that it should take to stop the Reapers.
That's just it, I DON'T want things to slide into 40K depravity. I DON'T want us to commit galactic genocide, even on our own allies, or innocent bystanders in order to "win" I don't want The Shepard to be ruling the galaxy from a Golden Throne. And I sure as sh*t don't want to be forced to rewrite everyone's genetic code in order to be 'acceptable to the Reapers. Real war is bad enough. The stakes against the Reapers were high enough as it is.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 20, 2021 21:15:03 GMT
or the deployment of the genophage. Twice! The Turians seemed quite content to wipe out the human race during the 1st Contact War...we didn't know starting the relay was against the law. this showing the danger when one group tries to apply morality or law as a universal construct. |
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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 20, 2021 21:17:24 GMT
That's just it, I DON'T want things to slide into 40K depravity. I DON'T want us to commit galactic genocide, even on our own allies, or innocent bystanders in order to "win" I don't want The Shepard to be ruling the galaxy from a Golden Throne. And I sure as sh*t don't want to be forced to rewrite everyone's genetic code in order to be 'acceptable to the Reapers. I didn't notice any green on Liara's face in the teaser. Pity we couldn't pull a B5 ending and tell the Leviathan and Reapers to f*** off. Reference: Babylon 5 scene: Sheridan: Get The Hell out of our Galaxy!
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Post by Iakus on Jul 20, 2021 21:28:38 GMT
or the deployment of the genophage. Twice! The Turians seemed quite content to wipe out the human race during the 1st Contact War...we didn't know starting the relay was against the law. "Your species needs to learn its place, Shepard!"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 22:22:01 GMT
The "red" is the line I will not cross. I will not uphold breaking international law on the use of "extermination" as a military strategy for ANY reason. I will not financially support a company that says there is a valid reasion for using "extermination" to end a war. There is one way they could get me to buy a "red" ending game... and that is then to completely condemn Shepard as the worst war criminal in galactic history... and move forward from that point. However, I don't think you'd go along with that, would you?
My not buying it is a personal decision. I don't need you to approve of it to know that, for me, it would be the right decision.
I can just imagine what would happen though if this were the case. We know the Catalyst is controlling the Reapers and are having them run a very specific program to wipe out all life in the galaxy. it is they who are trying it. It is they who are committing genocide against multiple different species throughout the galaxy for their own ideological needs to balance synthetic and organic life. It is they who then take the genetic soup the essence of all these species were, pound it into a new Reaper, and then brainwash them into continuing the cycle. It is literally us vs. them, which don't get me wrong IS hard to say and it IS Immoral. But I am not going to stick to my morals if it means the death of every species in the Galaxy. Could you just imagine the scenario? Somehow the forces of the Galaxy kill all but one Reaper, lets make this fun and say its a destroyer...but its all like 'damn we can't kill it because of our morality'...and then it slowly indoctrinates everyone and kills everyone anyways, the Cycle continues. And if we are going to go this far and have this black and white view on morality then none of the choices work. If mass murder is immoral and cannot be used in cases of extreme threat to ones species, or life, then so would mass brainwashing (control) and since I view Synthesis as genocide as well...there goes that one. Only choice that is workable under this morality system is simple refusal. Frankly you shouldn't want to buy BioWare if they were to cannonize any of the choices. Though I did just think of another ending they could have gone for here, if the Catalyst is the problem (if) then its removal might break the control over the Reapers and then they'd be like 'oh crap...look at what we did.' Of course many of them might not be able to live with what they were forced to do and would probably self destruct... In principle, international law applies to every sentient being we know of. So, it applies to Reapers. They would be "war criminals" for trying to "exterminate"us, but we are clearly told that is not the intention of every Reaper... we are told they are being controlled by a single AI (and that AI is indeed a war criminal). That still doesn't give "us" the legal right to try to exterminate them. As Anderson say, there's always another way. Control (i.e. changing the dictator) is a more acceptable way, under international law, than genocide. Sure, it has risks and it doesn't always work out that well... but in the eyes of humanity today... it is the more acceptable option to end a war... and it has been done throughout history. People believe generally that people must governed in some way... if not democratically, then by virtue of a monarchy or a dictatorship.
The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was not dropped with the intent of exterminating the Japanese people who, it was believed at the time, had the will to fight to the last man... prolonging the war and costing many more casualties. Even so, it was dropped with the intention of provoking a surrender (i.e. breaking that will to fight to the last man). In the case of the Reapers, the new AI in control assumes the ability to "break that will" in the Reaper population and redirect it in other ways as it (i.e. Shepard) sees fit. As written, the Destroy ending only has the intention to exterminate the entirety of the Reaper population. No other "reason" for it is given within the game.
There is honestly a high tooled arrogance in this position. Human laws cannot apply to non human situations. 'Inetnational law' can only apply, at best, to our situation here on Earth. Now I am sure there is interstellar law from the Council provisions which probably has a lot of simularities to our interntional law...which they then probaby we have seen them violate several times throughout the series like most governments tend to.  But the point ultimatley is basic precepts of human morality and custom cannot really be applied in an alien situation, that is a very dangerous standard to have. You can predict whatever you like... it doesn't change the fact that extermination is what it is and that is against international law. There's reasons why it is that way... and I personally won't sell out my morality because of fear of what might happen. In addition the game tells us outright that our worst fear is unfounded. Once we determine that the Reaper population is under the control of a faulty AI (who I very much equate with a bad dictator) and we learn that each Reaper is born out of the essence of many entirely different civilizations (i.e. we learn they are sentient individuals), this puts them on the same level as slaves... not toasters. Furthermore, we know that using the destroy option will destroy not only every reaper, but also other forms of sentient (as recognized by the game) life... and that senitent life chose not to exterminate their enemies (i.e the geth let the Quarians go).
I don't care whether all of you want to believe it or not... the twist about what the Reapers are and what their intentions really are is there... written into the game and it's not the Catalyst that tells us this... it's Leviathan and, in ME1, it's Sovereign. Each person here makes their own choice at the end and as long as Bioware maintains all the ending options, that's acceptable to me. However, eliminating everything but the destroy option promotes a line of thought that is inherently against international law... intentional extermination of a sentient race...and IF Bioware does that... goes that far... I refuse to support them financially as a company. That's my right in Canada... to opt to not spend my money supporting a company that does something I disapprove of. You can all do whatever you want yourselves... and live with your own consciences in the process. If you think that's "high-tooled arrogance on my part or my just being true to my own conscience is also up to you. I don't care.
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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 20, 2021 22:43:41 GMT
From 2012...  They should be able to pull this off without breaking their own rule. |
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Post by colfoley on Jul 21, 2021 0:34:42 GMT
I can just imagine what would happen though if this were the case. We know the Catalyst is controlling the Reapers and are having them run a very specific program to wipe out all life in the galaxy. it is they who are trying it. It is they who are committing genocide against multiple different species throughout the galaxy for their own ideological needs to balance synthetic and organic life. It is they who then take the genetic soup the essence of all these species were, pound it into a new Reaper, and then brainwash them into continuing the cycle. It is literally us vs. them, which don't get me wrong IS hard to say and it IS Immoral. But I am not going to stick to my morals if it means the death of every species in the Galaxy. Could you just imagine the scenario? Somehow the forces of the Galaxy kill all but one Reaper, lets make this fun and say its a destroyer...but its all like 'damn we can't kill it because of our morality'...and then it slowly indoctrinates everyone and kills everyone anyways, the Cycle continues. And if we are going to go this far and have this black and white view on morality then none of the choices work. If mass murder is immoral and cannot be used in cases of extreme threat to ones species, or life, then so would mass brainwashing (control) and since I view Synthesis as genocide as well...there goes that one. Only choice that is workable under this morality system is simple refusal. Frankly you shouldn't want to buy BioWare if they were to cannonize any of the choices. Though I did just think of another ending they could have gone for here, if the Catalyst is the problem (if) then its removal might break the control over the Reapers and then they'd be like 'oh crap...look at what we did.' Of course many of them might not be able to live with what they were forced to do and would probably self destruct... There is honestly a high tooled arrogance in this position. Human laws cannot apply to non human situations. 'Inetnational law' can only apply, at best, to our situation here on Earth. Now I am sure there is interstellar law from the Council provisions which probably has a lot of simularities to our interntional law...which they then probaby we have seen them violate several times throughout the series like most governments tend to. But the point ultimatley is basic precepts of human morality and custom cannot really be applied in an alien situation, that is a very dangerous standard to have. You can predict whatever you like... it doesn't change the fact that extermination is what it is and that is against international law. There's reasons why it is that way... and I personally won't sell out my morality because of fear of what might happen. In addition the game tells us outright that our worst fear is unfounded. Once we determine that the Reaper population is under the control of a faulty AI (who I very much equate with a bad dictator) and we learn that each Reaper is born out of the essence of many entirely different civilizations (i.e. we learn they are sentient individuals), this puts them on the same level as slaves... not toasters. Furthermore, we know that using the destroy option will destroy not only every reaper, but also other forms of sentient (as recognized by the game) life... and that senitent life chose not to exterminate their enemies (i.e the geth let the Quarians go).
I don't care whether all of you want to believe it or not... the twist about what the Reapers are and what their intentions really are is there... written into the game and it's not the Catalyst that tells us this... it's Leviathan and, in ME1, it's Sovereign. Each person here makes their own choice at the end and as long as Bioware maintains all the ending options, that's acceptable to me. However, eliminating everything but the destroy option promotes a line of thought that is inherently against international law... intentional extermination of a sentient race...and IF Bioware does that... goes that far... I refuse to support them financially as a company. That's my right in Canada... to opt to not spend my money supporting a company that does something I disapprove of. You can all do whatever you want yourselves... and live with your own consciences in the process. If you think that's "high-tooled arrogance on my part or my just being true to my own conscience is also up to you. I don't care.
This counter argument ignores everything I have claimed up there. If Destroy is so morally depraved, against 'international law' as to merit a non buy for any future BioWare projects...then how is Control (mass brainwashing) or Synethesis (mass genocide) any different? How can one logically support buying any future BioWare games with such a ridgid line in the sand? I mean sure maybe Control and Synethis is not against international law...but then that shows a lack of imagination in international law. And aside from head cannon where are these other choices you mention. Yes the Catalyst is a bad faith dicator acting in bad faith but where is the option to depose him and end the cycle that way? BioWare certainly does not provide us with one. All BioWare provides us with is Destroy (genocide) Control (mass brainwashing) Synethesis (universal armegheddon). No option to convince the Catalyst to depose themselves, no option to attack the Catalyst directly...these are the only four choices that BioWare offers us. All of them highly morally dubious if you think of morality as an absolutist concept with no regard for context. Even in control we would just be deposing one dictator for another. Sure Shepard might be a benign dictator but then I thought international law and like generally frowned on dictatorships no matter how peaceful? And despite the 'you dare use my own spells against me' of the firsst point ultimatley we do not need to predict what will happen because BioWare tells us. BioWare tells us what will happen if we refuse the choices offered. BioWare mentioned it several times throughout the narrative and also we know because we know what happens if we choose Refusal. Everything dies, the Cycle continues. And refusal is the only moral choice we have open to us.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 21, 2021 0:44:21 GMT
I think you miss the point of that quote and how relevant it is to 40k. The entire grim dark future of only war suffering and death could have been prevented with just a few instances of forward thinking about the future. The Eldar stopping for 5 seconds to consider the effect their depravity had on the warp could have stopped the birth of Slannesh and the warp storms that destroyed the human empire. If the end of the Eldar's story set up hundreds of years of suffering and death. Souls being tormented for eternity by literal daemons.
Billions if not trillions of people dying because of the way your story ended is not the beginning of another great story. Not unless you are cenobite anyways.
From the fact the first game had to end with the Reaper short circuiting for no explained reason it was already proof there is nothing you can really do to stop them. When Sovereign says that you only exist because they allow it and will end when they desire it that isn't pure ego talking. If the Reapers were not so focused on harvesting and simply wanted to kill people the galaxy would be wiped clean of all life in quick order.
My issue with Destroy is that the consequences do not go far enough. There should be a lot more death and destruction involved in it because that is exactly the effects that it should take to stop the Reapers.
That's just it, I DON'T want things to slide into 40K depravity. I DON'T want us to commit galactic genocide, even on our own allies, or innocent bystanders in order to "win" I don't want The Shepard to be ruling the galaxy from a Golden Throne. And I sure as sh*t don't want to be forced to rewrite everyone's genetic code in order to be 'acceptable to the Reapers. Real war is bad enough. The stakes against the Reapers were high enough as it is.
The 40k reference was to our society degrading into that mess because we only look at problems with how it effects us here and now and rarely thinking about how our actions will effect the next generation or the generation after that.
The stakes against the Reapers were never high because by default we know we would win. While I would like it I doubt my opinion would be shared by the majority of people that the Reapers auto winning at the end of the trilogy because that is the natural outcome. So they have to actually create some stakes in the first place. This entire concept was best shown with the Clone Wars series. We know that Anakin, Obi-wan, Padame, etc will survive every encounter because they have to so they can show up in episode 3. So they started introducing new characters and focusing stories away from simply Anakin and Obi-wan were they could be surrounded by a thousands battle droids and we know they will survive.
Satine Kryze is a great example of an original character that was given a connection to Obi-Wan. So when Obi was facing off against Maul we know Obi would survive because he has to. Satine being thrown into the mix creates stakes if she will survive or not. And her death at the hands of Maul to torment Obi creates a much more powerful scene then simply Obi making a few quips and fighting Maul only to escape at the last second to survive to be in episode 3 and 4.
Destroy having consequences fits because it is the definition of a renegade action. Short term benefit for long term problem. And Control is only sitting on a golden throne if you want to interpret it that way. The same with synthesis. If you want to interpret them in a bad way then they are bad. But that is entirely your choice. And if they were going to give a Disney channel ending to the series why bother with player choice in the first place? They could have just written a linear story. It certainly would make things easier and allow them to expand on things if the Rachni Queen always survives ME1 and Jacob always dies in ME2.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 21, 2021 0:44:46 GMT
While I normally don't like Javik and I even do not like him for this statement he does tend to be right about this concept.
Or from the Doctor. For reference the Capaldi bits.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 21, 2021 1:47:39 GMT
While I normally don't like Javik and I even do not like him for this statement he does tend to be right about this concept. Or from the Doctor. For reference the Capaldi bits. 
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Post by colfoley on Jul 21, 2021 1:50:07 GMT
While I normally don't like Javik and I even do not like him for this statement he does tend to be right about this concept. Or from the Doctor. For reference the Capaldi bits. Yeah I also appreciate some good ole Pike in my morality to. Sometimes I think I am a very interesting snowflake.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 21, 2021 12:19:31 GMT
While I normally don't like Javik and I even do not like him for this statement he does tend to be right about this concept. Or from the Doctor. For reference the Capaldi bits. Says the author who gets to control their fantasy world they create to what they want and how they want events to happen. It is easy for god to sit back and make statements like that because god is never at risk or threatened. The reason Javik's quote is so popular is because from the perspective of a being living inside the story it is accurate. Javik as the last living Prothean is standing on the wasteland of his dead race staring down the very entities that wiped them out. Brandon is sitting at home watching netflix drinking some soda while waiting for pizza hut to arrive.
The best fictional quotes are from characters who truly represent what it is like living in that universe.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 21, 2021 13:36:43 GMT
Says the author who gets to control their fantasy world they create to what they want and how they want events to happen. It is easy for god to sit back and make statements like that because god is never at risk or threatened. The reason Javik's quote is so popular is because from the perspective of a being living inside the story it is accurate. Javik as the last living Prothean is standing on the wasteland of his dead race staring down the very entities that wiped them out. Brandon is sitting at home watching netflix drinking some soda while waiting for pizza hut to arrive.
The best fictional quotes are from characters who truly represent what it is like living in that universe.
 But I guess you prefer 
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 21, 2021 14:38:29 GMT
Says the author who gets to control their fantasy world they create to what they want and how they want events to happen. It is easy for god to sit back and make statements like that because god is never at risk or threatened. The reason Javik's quote is so popular is because from the perspective of a being living inside the story it is accurate. Javik as the last living Prothean is standing on the wasteland of his dead race staring down the very entities that wiped them out. Brandon is sitting at home watching netflix drinking some soda while waiting for pizza hut to arrive.
The best fictional quotes are from characters who truly represent what it is like living in that universe.
But I guess you prefer
A philosopher ruminating on the nature of man is not the same as reality. It is easy for someone with everything to say that stealing is wrong and should be punished. But it is something else when a person has nothing and stealing is the only thing between starving and having a full stomach. Machiavelli actually acknowledges the necessities of reality.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 15:44:34 GMT
Using a "substitution" into a conversation that already occurs in the game to respond to this one last time:
Mordin to Shepard: If the Reapers are so dangerous, why not go all the way and destroy them all instead of giving up your own life to change what is controlling them.
Shepard: Not a war criminal. Not a murder. Genocide unnecessary. Reapers are very dangerous, but still likely have outliers (since each one is a sentient being that encompasses the entire essence of a different ancient civilization). Worth saving.
The game "supports" not destroying the entire Reaper population. Control stops the harvest (effectively preventing the Reapers from reproducing)... and as stated in the ending, gives the galaxy A CHANCE at peace and a chance to right the wrongs of the past... and move forward from that point without sacrificing whatever technological accomplishments have been made.
It's a valid option to not select Destroy... and all ending options should remain viable going forward.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 21, 2021 15:59:53 GMT
Ugh, I hated that line from Javik. I hate any argument that is basically “To rise above monsters, you have to abandon your humanity.” I love the counter to that: “Only a human can destroy a monster. Only a human can dare hope to.”
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Post by themikefest on Jul 21, 2021 16:14:07 GMT
voice: We won't exterminate you if you promise to be a good reapers: Really? Even though we destroyed countless civilizations before? voice: Is it so hard to believe that we are dumb enough to not exterminate you like you have the previous cycles? reaper: Yes it is since the previous cycles would have destroyed us. Since you're being nice, we offer you this cookie in good faith. Regardless of what words people use about this, that and the other ending, red is the most popular chosen by more people. So if Bioware/EA wanted to choose an ending, they would likely go with the red. excellent. My preferred ending is one I call Hacketts ending. One I've mentioned even on the old forum. It's simple. It gets rid of all the nonsense after Shepard passes out. But the ending that takes the cake is the brown ending that was posted before the cut was released.  |
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Post by mannyray on Jul 21, 2021 16:26:46 GMT
People can go "meh" "gah" and "feh" or "pleh" all they like. The bottom line is people didn't get a hookers and blow ending for the protagonist they were living vicariously through. I liked the fact the stakes were so high that there was no way to win without Shepard getting his/her hands dirty.
People need to ingest better SF in their media and maybe they'd understand why a canon ending and pandering to small minded people will just make things worse. I mean didn't everyone learn from the emotional abuse they inflicted upon themselves with anthem?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 21, 2021 19:15:48 GMT
Ugh, I hated that line from Javik. I hate any argument that is basically “To rise above monsters, you have to abandon your humanity.” I love the counter to that: “Only a human can destroy a monster. Only a human can dare hope to.” History says otherwise.
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But the point ultimatley is basic precepts of human morality and custom cannot really be applied in an alien situation, that is a very dangerous standard to have. 
