shotgunjulia
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Frustrated Golfer
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jun 24, 2021 17:23:19 GMT
Iakus One of the problems between 1, 2 and 3 is that the Geth in 3 were written by someone else with totally different ideas. They tossed the original writer's ideas in the bin. And so we got that hot mess on Rannoch. Still it seems like just when the organics turn the tide in their wars against the synthetics, the reapers show up. Witness the Protheans' war with the Zha'til, and the Quarians' war with the Geth. Who knows what happened with the Innusannon? I'd bet the same thing. The intelligence has this idea that once the organics can beat the synthetics they're ripe for harvesting. Or might it be that if they figure our how to do that they might figure out where it is and unplug the bastard. Without the intelligence giving direction to the reapers what would they do? The best ending is to force quit the game after best seats in the house before Hackett speaks and put the game disk away. It's like walking away from Game of Thrones before Season 8. I would like to see an episode of "The Drinker Fixes: Mass Effect." The Critical Drinker did one... or two for GoT. I'm also playing Stellaris right now, not Mass Effect. I just come here to bitch, moan, and complain like everyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 17:45:47 GMT
Iakus One of the problems between 1, 2 and 3 is that the Geth in 3 were written by someone else with totally different ideas. They tossed the original writer's ideas in the bin. And so we got that hot mess on Rannoch. Still it seems like just when the organics turn the tide in their wars against the synthetics, the reapers show up. Witness the Protheans' war with the Zha'til, and the Quarians' war with the Geth. Who knows what happened with the Innusannon? I'd bet the same thing. The intelligence has this idea that once the organics can beat the synthetics they're ripe for harvesting. Or might it be that if they figure our how to do that they might figure out where it is and unplug the bastard. Without the intelligence giving direction to the reapers what would they do? The best ending is to force quit the game after best seats in the house before Hackett speaks and put the game disk away. It's like walking away from Game of Thrones before Season 8. I would like to see an episode of "The Drinker Fixes: Mass Effect." The Critical Drinker did one... or two for GoT. I'm also playing Stellaris right now, not Mass Effect. I just come here to bitch, moan, and complain like everyone else. The act of overturning on their creators by the zha'til was done earlier... when the Zha'til turned on their creators, the Zha. The Zha were wiped out (likely wiped out by theh Zha'til or perhaps consumed by the Prothean empire who turned every species they conquered into Protheans) and then the Reapers corrupted the Zha'til to use as weapon against the Protheans. According to Javik on the geth dreadnought, the Reapers had "subjugated" the Zha'til (i.e. infiltrated their AI) making them attack the Protheans, so the Protheans wiped them out by making their homeworld go supernova.
Saren likely started the process of the geth being infiltrated by the Reapers when he exposed them to Sovereign. However, in ME3, the Reaper infiltration of the geth is overcome peacefully by Shepard and Legion working together. Firstly, when Shepard is shutting down the geth server, Legion rescues the geth and puts them into the Primes, who then voluntarily decide to help the organics in building the crucible. Then, the geth/quarian war can be settled peacefully as Legion voluntarily uploads to the rest of the geth... who then volunatarily decide to help the quarians. A situation like that between the Protheans and the Zha'til is averted.
It's not that the Reapers show up after the organics "turn the tide in their wars against synthetics." The difference in the current cycle is that the tide was turned AFTER the Reapers showed up; whereas in other cycles, the tide was never turned.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 24, 2021 17:49:16 GMT
WTF does this have to do with anything? I really suggest you play the game before asking questions. It is a little hard to have a conversation with someone who doesn't know anything about the game.
Heretics never directly or indirectly attacked the Quarians so the actions of the Quarians both in their desire to reclaim their home world and their attack on the Geth are irrelevant to the existence of the Heretic Geth faction. Rannoch was at the heart of their territory. If they were to build a super structure to house all Geth they would build it at the most secure location in the heart of their territory. You know kind of like how the Alliance didn't move their headquarters to some back water planet on the edge of Terminus Space were they only have a few light frigate for protection. On top of that a structure that large would consume an incredible amount of power and fuel. Building it near a star to allow solar power to supplement it. Or equally alternatively they were planning to move it into the void between systems but were constructing it there because the Mass Relay made transportation easier for raw materials. After all the only thing you need for FTL flight is an engine and enough element zero.
There is no outline here this is basic cause and effect given the known motivations and reasoning behind each group. It wouldn't be 100% accurate given numerous possible factors but would be enough for the sake of argument given what we know about each group.
No I don't because that example as clearly stated this was the long term effect of a new synthetic race. To learn that all the organic races not only allowed but rewarded the destruction of another synthetic race. That already paints organics as unable to be trusted at best. Which will lead to more conflict. Which leads to more death and more mistrust and fear. Which creates a self feeding cycle of destruction. The literal problem the Catalyst talks about. Only eventually Synthetics will be advanced enough to out class organic life and gain the clear tactical advantage.
[/quote]Doesn't matter the Heretics didn't bother the Quarians and they still attacked them when they found a weapon to be used against them. The Geth still wiped out 99% of the Quarian race in a genocidal blood bath rather then simply gaining the advantage and then fleeing the system with all the resources and materials needed to start up on an uninhabited planet else were. The Geth wiped out every ship that wondered into their space and rejected every attempt at the Council to establish diplomatic relations with them at gun point. [/div]
You can argue that the Geth do not resort to violence as their first option. But when they do decide violence is needed they engage in brutal fighting that would make a Krogan stand in awe of the sheer death and destruction that the Geth can unleashed.
This is why the Reapers exist and why they harvest every races. Not because they are some over the top parody level mustache twirling villain. It is the only solution is to constantly reset the galaxy by harvesting advanced organic life. Because their solution is based on reality rater then this fantasy of "well if everyone was nice to each other we would have world peace." Which if that was actually possible that world peace would already exist in the game world. Instead the game world is just like our world which means it has good people and real ass holes and any peace that exists has a major factor in that the Council restricts fleet strengths of aligned races to ensure they always have the advantage if a fight ever broke out. Then you have an entire 3rd of the galaxy that lacks even those basic limits on behavior in the Terminus system were the only authority there is who ever has the biggest gun and can kill anyone that challenges them. Which allows people to be even bigger ass holes as behavior and activities that would at least attempted to be suppressed by central governments are allowed to run free.
To stand in this world and simply say "everyone be nice" and expect it to have any meaning is the equivalent of telling someone who is depressed to "just cheer up and you will feel better." Mass Effect isn't as grim dark as Warhammer 40k is. But it is way off from noble bright Gene Rodenberry Star Trek
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Post by shermos on Jun 24, 2021 17:59:22 GMT
See... you mod them anyways... no point in staying upset about what Bioware did. I think we'll maybe hit a point where devs will just give up on developing games and work on developing dev kits for everyone to make their own games. Bethesda is already there I think... But Mass Effect wasn't intended to be modded. No Creation Kit. No workshop. No modding tools. Bioware gave us those endings and expected us to thank them for it! Modding, like IT, had to be done from scratch with limited tools. And is likely to be respected by Bioware as much as IT is as well.
Bioware has been much more supportive of the modding community with the release of the Legendary Edition to be fair. While stopping short of official support, the community has been given access to information which is making rebuilding and improving the tool sets much easier. Work the community thought might take years has been shortened to months. Also, most of the ending mods were made at a time when the modding tools weren't nearly as advanced as they are now. We can expect them to make a comeback and be much improved.
The way Bioware has handled the LE has earned back some goodwill from me which had completely evaporated after the Andromeda and Anthem fiascos. I'm still skeptical for future games but more from a writing perspective. The dropping of the live service bs is a good sign at least.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 24, 2021 18:08:35 GMT
I'm also playing Stellaris right now, not Mass Effect. I just come here to bitch, moan, and complain like everyone else. Chris L'etoile's absence was keenly felt, yeah. Pathfinder: Kingmaker for me. Then XCom 2 with a bunch of Mass Effect reskins. If I'm gonna fight off an alien invasion while being called "Commander" I'm gonna do it without Starbrat or the Giant Magic Wand of Color Spray.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 24, 2021 18:21:40 GMT
WTF does this have to do with anything? I really suggest you play the game before asking questions. It is a little hard to have a conversation with someone who doesn't know anything about the game.
Heretics never directly or indirectly attacked the Quarians so the actions of the Quarians both in their desire to reclaim their home world and their attack on the Geth are irrelevant to the existence of the Heretic Geth faction. Rannoch was at the heart of their territory. If they were to build a super structure to house all Geth they would build it at the most secure location in the heart of their territory. You know kind of like how the Alliance didn't move their headquarters to some back water planet on the edge of Terminus Space were they only have a few light frigate for protection. On top of that a structure that large would consume an incredible amount of power and fuel. Building it near a star to allow solar power to supplement it. Or equally alternatively they were planning to move it into the void between systems but were constructing it there because the Mass Relay made transportation easier for raw materials. After all the only thing you need for FTL flight is an engine and enough element zero.
There is no outline here this is basic cause and effect given the known motivations and reasoning behind each group. It wouldn't be 100% accurate given numerous possible factors but would be enough for the sake of argument given what we know about each group.
No I don't because that example as clearly stated this was the long term effect of a new synthetic race. To learn that all the organic races not only allowed but rewarded the destruction of another synthetic race. That already paints organics as unable to be trusted at best. Which will lead to more conflict. Which leads to more death and more mistrust and fear. Which creates a self feeding cycle of destruction. The literal problem the Catalyst talks about. Only eventually Synthetics will be advanced enough to out class organic life and gain the clear tactical advantage.
Doesn't matter the Heretics didn't bother the Quarians and they still attacked them when they found a weapon to be used against them. The Geth still wiped out 99% of the Quarian race in a genocidal blood bath rather then simply gaining the advantage and then fleeing the system with all the resources and materials needed to start up on an uninhabited planet else were. The Geth wiped out every ship that wondered into their space and rejected every attempt at the Council to establish diplomatic relations with them at gun point. [/div]
You can argue that the Geth do not resort to violence as their first option. But when they do decide violence is needed they engage in brutal fighting that would make a Krogan stand in awe of the sheer death and destruction that the Geth can unleashed.
This is why the Reapers exist and why they harvest every races. Not because they are some over the top parody level mustache twirling villain. It is the only solution is to constantly reset the galaxy by harvesting advanced organic life. Because their solution is based on reality rater then this fantasy of "well if everyone was nice to each other we would have world peace." Which if that was actually possible that world peace would already exist in the game world. Instead the game world is just like our world which means it has good people and real ass holes and any peace that exists has a major factor in that the Council restricts fleet strengths of aligned races to ensure they always have the advantage if a fight ever broke out. Then you have an entire 3rd of the galaxy that lacks even those basic limits on behavior in the Terminus system were the only authority there is who ever has the biggest gun and can kill anyone that challenges them. Which allows people to be even bigger ass holes as behavior and activities that would at least attempted to be suppressed by central governments are allowed to run free.
To stand in this world and simply say "everyone be nice" and expect it to have any meaning is the equivalent of telling someone who is depressed to "just cheer up and you will feel better." Mass Effect isn't as grim dark as Warhammer 40k is. But it is way off from noble bright Gene Rodenberry Star Trek
[/quote] I daresay I know the lore better than you. Geth never attacked the quarians after the Morning War except in self defense. They were in fact working to restore the damage done to Rannoch, and to build a megastructure where they could isolate themselves and not bother anyone ever again (except, you know, in ME3 they built it in a REALLY STUPID LOCATION! Like could couldn't find an uninhabited system to use, given they don't have the same needs as organics.) The Heretics were the ones who ventured beyond the Perseus Veil to help Saren bring in the Reapers which would, you know KILL ALL THE ORGANICS! The rest of your argument, to quote Legion : No two species are alike. All must be judged based on their own merits. To compare another species to one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism."
It is observable and irrefutable that the Heretics are the only ones who initiated conflict. the other geth defended themselves ONLY. Even in situations when the quarians were being Darwin-Award stupid because ME3 required they hold the Idiot Ball.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 24, 2021 18:34:00 GMT
The way Bioware has handled the LE has earned back some goodwill from me It's going to take a lot more than a recanned experience from 10 years ago, only buggier, to win me back. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 24, 2021 18:47:12 GMT
The way Bioware has handled the LE has earned back some goodwill from me It's going to take a lot more than a recanned experience from 10 years ago, only buggier, to win me back. Especially since that rescanned experience ruined as many things as it improved. |
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 24, 2021 18:59:56 GMT
The way Bioware has handled the LE has earned back some goodwill from me It's going to take a lot more than a recanned experience from 10 years ago, only buggier, to win me back. They're definitely taking a page out of Bethesda's playbook. 😆 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 23:42:24 GMT
Iakus One of the problems between 1, 2 and 3 is that the Geth in 3 were written by someone else with totally different ideas. They tossed the original writer's ideas in the bin. And so we got that hot mess on Rannoch. Still it seems like just when the organics turn the tide in their wars against the synthetics, the reapers show up. Witness the Protheans' war with the Zha'til, and the Quarians' war with the Geth. Who knows what happened with the Innusannon? I'd bet the same thing. The intelligence has this idea that once the organics can beat the synthetics they're ripe for harvesting. Or might it be that if they figure our how to do that they might figure out where it is and unplug the bastard. Without the intelligence giving direction to the reapers what would they do? The best ending is to force quit the game after best seats in the house before Hackett speaks and put the game disk away. It's like walking away from Game of Thrones before Season 8. I would like to see an episode of "The Drinker Fixes: Mass Effect." The Critical Drinker did one... or two for GoT. I'm also playing Stellaris right now, not Mass Effect. I just come here to bitch, moan, and complain like everyone else. Good to see one of the old names back here again. For me it's clear: the only way to play ME3 is with mods, specially the ones that fixes the ending. And the only way to engage the endings discussion is... to not engage at all. You cannot force yourself to understand bad writing. The mental gymnastics people did in the last 9 years to squeeze any type of narrative coherence from this hot dumpster is baffling. Recently I talked about the cognitive dissonance many players suffered (including me) during the catalyst conversation, and the suspension of disbelief destruction that gradually occurs after Shepard's Rise, during the conversation and continues on after the decision, until the "ten thousand years later" epilogue. The whole thing disgusted many people to the core, and irredeemably tarnished the experience. Not even the EC can fix this hot mess. My decision to not engage in the endings arguments is simple: my disgust for the endings is not entirely rational, and people who likes them can never understand the abhor that I have.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 25, 2021 1:09:08 GMT
I daresay I know the lore better than you. Geth never attacked the quarians after the Morning War except in self defense. They were in fact working to restore the damage done to Rannoch, and to build a megastructure where they could isolate themselves and not bother anyone ever again (except, you know, in ME3 they built it in a REALLY STUPID LOCATION! Like could couldn't find an uninhabited system to use, given they don't have the same needs as organics.) The Heretics were the ones who ventured beyond the Perseus Veil to help Saren bring in the Reapers which would, you know KILL ALL THE ORGANICS! The rest of your argument, to quote Legion : No two species are alike. All must be judged based on their own merits. To compare another species to one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism."
It is observable and irrefutable that the Heretics are the only ones who initiated conflict. the other geth defended themselves ONLY. Even in situations when the quarians were being Darwin-Award stupid because ME3 required they hold the Idiot Ball.
You can not achieve a body count of 6.8 billion out of 7 billion and claim self defense. That is just a ridiculously bad faith argument on it's own. We are not given the pre MW Quarian population but they did have multiple planets so low balling it to say they had roughly the same population as current real world Earth of around 7 billion. We are told the Migrant Fleet has 17 million Quarians on it and they have maintained steady numbers since the end of the war. Being overly generous and lets say there are another 7 million Quarians out in the rest of the galaxy on pilgrimages or what have you. Bringing the total population up to 24 million total. This means the current Quarian population is 0.3% of the pre MW population.
Again we lack specific data but using the real world as a source it is estimated that children ages 0-14 years old make up 25% of the total population on earth in 2019. 25% of 7 billion is 1,750,000,000. Which means the Geth would have to not only kill 100% of the population ages 15+. But they would also have to kill around 1,726,000,000 children ages 0-14 year old to reduce the Quarian population down to 24 million individuals.
To reduce the Quarian population from 7 billion to 24 million individuals in 2 (earth) years would equal to 9,556,164 deaths a day. For reference New York City or London have populations around 8.4 and 8.9 million respectively. The death toll and death rate is staggering and unreal. The only possible way you can even vaugly claim self defense and account for the massive degree of Quarian deaths would be if the Quarians fought using exclusively nuclear bomb suicide vests and fired nuclear bomb bullets.
Sovereign wasn't active in the galaxy until around 2162 when it was found floating floating around an uncharted world. The Morning War was in 1895 and there were no Geth with Sovereign when it was discovered. And before that the Geth had maintained a strict isolation from everyone. Which was enforced at gun point.
Actually my argument lines up with Legion's statement because the Quarians and the rest of the races are being judged on their own merit. They either actively participated in the genocide of a race or sat by and let them do it. That is literally judging them based on their own merits.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 25, 2021 1:12:25 GMT
Iakus One of the problems between 1, 2 and 3 is that the Geth in 3 were written by someone else with totally different ideas. They tossed the original writer's ideas in the bin. And so we got that hot mess on Rannoch. Still it seems like just when the organics turn the tide in their wars against the synthetics, the reapers show up. Witness the Protheans' war with the Zha'til, and the Quarians' war with the Geth. Who knows what happened with the Innusannon? I'd bet the same thing. The intelligence has this idea that once the organics can beat the synthetics they're ripe for harvesting. Or might it be that if they figure our how to do that they might figure out where it is and unplug the bastard. Without the intelligence giving direction to the reapers what would they do? The best ending is to force quit the game after best seats in the house before Hackett speaks and put the game disk away. It's like walking away from Game of Thrones before Season 8. I would like to see an episode of "The Drinker Fixes: Mass Effect." The Critical Drinker did one... or two for GoT. I'm also playing Stellaris right now, not Mass Effect. I just come here to bitch, moan, and complain like everyone else. Good to see one of the old names back here again. For me it's clear: the only way to play ME3 is with mods, specially the ones that fixes the ending. And the only way to engage the endings discussion is... to not engage at all. You cannot force yourself to understand bad writing. The mental gymnastics people did in the last 9 years to squeeze any type of narrative coherence from this hot dumpster is baffling. Recently I talked about the cognitive dissonance many players suffered (including me) during the catalyst conversation, and the suspension of disbelief destruction that gradually occurs after Shepard's Rise, during the conversation and continues on after the decision, until the "ten thousand years later" epilogue. The whole thing disgusted many people to the core, and irredeemably tarnished the experience. Not even the EC can fix this hot mess. My decision to not engage in the endings arguments is simple: my disgust for the endings is not entirely rational, and people who likes them can never understand the abhor that I have.
It never fails to amuse me when I see people using the argument of "anyone that likes what I don't like has to be doing mental gymnastics or suffering cognitive dissonance." What a perfectly crafted way to instantly dismiss any argument against your own logic by already declaring anyone who disagrees with you is a fucking idiot who don't know what they are talking about.
I'd say I'm surprised but at this point this shit is par the course for mass effect players.
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Post by shermos on Jun 25, 2021 9:24:31 GMT
The way Bioware has handled the LE has earned back some goodwill from me It's going to take a lot more than a recanned experience from 10 years ago, only buggier, to win me back.
I'm not saying I've been entirely won back either, but it's a step in the right direction. People will be able to use mods to restore changes they aren't happy with. I think there's already a mod to restore Kelly's hair for example.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 25, 2021 9:42:39 GMT
It's going to take a lot more than a recanned experience from 10 years ago, only buggier, to win me back.
I'm not saying I've been entirely won back either, but it's a step in the right direction. People will be able to use mods to restore changes they aren't happy with. I think there's already a mod to restore Kelly's hair for example.
A step in the right direction, would be taking ME3 behind the shed and going Old Yeller on it. The rest is just 2012 part 2; same problems, different year.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 25, 2021 15:44:30 GMT
It's going to take a lot more than a recanned experience from 10 years ago, only buggier, to win me back.
I'm not saying I've been entirely won back either, but it's a step in the right direction. People will be able to use mods to restore changes they aren't happy with. I think there's already a mod to restore Kelly's hair for example.
First, not everyone can use mods. Most people can’t Second, the existence of mods doesn’t excuse the things wrong with the actual game. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 19:04:27 GMT
Good to see one of the old names back here again. For me it's clear: the only way to play ME3 is with mods, specially the ones that fixes the ending. And the only way to engage the endings discussion is... to not engage at all. You cannot force yourself to understand bad writing. The mental gymnastics people did in the last 9 years to squeeze any type of narrative coherence from this hot dumpster is baffling. Recently I talked about the cognitive dissonance many players suffered (including me) during the catalyst conversation, and the suspension of disbelief destruction that gradually occurs after Shepard's Rise, during the conversation and continues on after the decision, until the "ten thousand years later" epilogue. The whole thing disgusted many people to the core, and irredeemably tarnished the experience. Not even the EC can fix this hot mess. My decision to not engage in the endings arguments is simple: my disgust for the endings is not entirely rational, and people who likes them can never understand the abhor that I have.
It never fails to amuse me when I see people using the argument of "anyone that likes what I don't like has to be doing mental gymnastics or suffering cognitive dissonance." What a perfectly crafted way to instantly dismiss any argument against your own logic by already declaring anyone who disagrees with you is a fucking idiot who don't know what they are talking about.
I'd say I'm surprised but at this point this shit is par the course for mass effect players.
Case in point. I don't think anyone is an idiot for discussing the endings, or disagreeing with me. If you like it, more power to you. It's me that suffered a massive cognitive dissonance and had my suspension of disbelief shattered by the original endings, and the EC couldn't fix that. The initial irrational response of disgust and abhor was rationalized after the gut feeling happened. And MY rationalization is of bad writing + lack of narrative coherence. In the first year all the points in favor and against the endings were already made, the next eight years was just bickering. So is this thread (again). |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 25, 2021 20:48:30 GMT
It never fails to amuse me when I see people using the argument of "anyone that likes what I don't like has to be doing mental gymnastics or suffering cognitive dissonance." What a perfectly crafted way to instantly dismiss any argument against your own logic by already declaring anyone who disagrees with you is a fucking idiot who don't know what they are talking about.
I'd say I'm surprised but at this point this shit is par the course for mass effect players.
Case in point. I don't think anyone is an idiot for discussing the endings, or disagreeing with me. If you like it, more power to you. That is slightly contradicted by your previous statement of: The mental gymnastics people did in the last 9 years to squeeze any type of narrative coherence from this hot dumpster is baffling. You are literally saying anyone who has any view of narrative coherence must be using mental gymnastics to reach that point. The term mental gymnastics has two meaning to it
And in the context of your over all reply you are clearly not talking about a difficult and complex logical though process. You are using the derogatory version to say people are using complex arguments to justify the unjustifiable. And since you are using it in the derogatory manner it is not a compliment, it is an insult. You did not limit your reply to your own personal opinions about the ending. You not liking the ending and thinking they are shitty is perfectly fine because everyone has their own opinion. You took it a step further by out right insulting anyone who thinks differently then you do.
Since cognitive dissonance is in simple terms the feelings of discomfort that result when your beliefs run counter to your behaviors and/or new information that is presented to you. I'm rather curious what and how this was triggered in you. Particularly since narrative coherence and bad writing has always been a problem since the first game. So by the 3rd game you should already be aware of what you are walking into.
I'd actually disagree with that. While there are common themes I still see specifics that are new (to me) and are fascinating to hear people explain their reasoning and logic behind their interpenetration of events.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 25, 2021 20:55:52 GMT
And in the context of your over all reply you are clearly not talking about a difficult and complex logical though process. You are using the derogatory version to say people are using complex arguments to justify the unjustifiable. And since you are using it in the derogatory manner it is not a compliment, it is an insult. You did not limit your reply to your own personal opinions about the ending. You not liking the ending and thinking they are shitty is perfectly fine because everyone has their own opinion. You took it a step further by out right insulting anyone who thinks differently then you do. I disagree. Anyone that can get that inventive, to make an argument in favour of the logic behind the endings, must have come up with a very inventive solution, if they make a good argument. Which is something that Bioware has not managed to do, in 9 years. |
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Kabraxal
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Post by Kabraxal on Jun 25, 2021 21:34:26 GMT
I daresay I know the lore better than you. Geth never attacked the quarians after the Morning War except in self defense. They were in fact working to restore the damage done to Rannoch, and to build a megastructure where they could isolate themselves and not bother anyone ever again (except, you know, in ME3 they built it in a REALLY STUPID LOCATION! Like could couldn't find an uninhabited system to use, given they don't have the same needs as organics.) The Heretics were the ones who ventured beyond the Perseus Veil to help Saren bring in the Reapers which would, you know KILL ALL THE ORGANICS! The rest of your argument, to quote Legion : No two species are alike. All must be judged based on their own merits. To compare another species to one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism."
It is observable and irrefutable that the Heretics are the only ones who initiated conflict. the other geth defended themselves ONLY. Even in situations when the quarians were being Darwin-Award stupid because ME3 required they hold the Idiot Ball.
You can not achieve a body count of 6.8 billion out of 7 billion and claim self defense. That is just a ridiculously bad faith argument on it's own. We are not given the pre MW Quarian population but they did have multiple planets so low balling it to say they had roughly the same population as current real world Earth of around 7 billion. We are told the Migrant Fleet has 17 million Quarians on it and they have maintained steady numbers since the end of the war. Being overly generous and lets say there are another 7 million Quarians out in the rest of the galaxy on pilgrimages or what have you. Bringing the total population up to 24 million total. This means the current Quarian population is 0.3% of the pre MW population.
Again we lack specific data but using the real world as a source it is estimated that children ages 0-14 years old make up 25% of the total population on earth in 2019. 25% of 7 billion is 1,750,000,000. Which means the Geth would have to not only kill 100% of the population ages 15+. But they would also have to kill around 1,726,000,000 children ages 0-14 year old to reduce the Quarian population down to 24 million individuals.
To reduce the Quarian population from 7 billion to 24 million individuals in 2 (earth) years would equal to 9,556,164 deaths a day. For reference New York City or London have populations around 8.4 and 8.9 million respectively. The death toll and death rate is staggering and unreal. The only possible way you can even vaugly claim self defense and account for the massive degree of Quarian deaths would be if the Quarians fought using exclusively nuclear bomb suicide vests and fired nuclear bomb bullets.
Sovereign wasn't active in the galaxy until around 2162 when it was found floating floating around an uncharted world. The Morning War was in 1895 and there were no Geth with Sovereign when it was discovered. And before that the Geth had maintained a strict isolation from everyone. Which was enforced at gun point.
Actually my argument lines up with Legion's statement because the Quarians and the rest of the races are being judged on their own merit. They either actively participated in the genocide of a race or sat by and let them do it. That is literally judging them based on their own merits.
The geth only fought and killed the Quarians when they kept attacking. The moment the Quarians disengaged the war was immediately over. The Quarians started the war and continued it. It was their own damn fault. This fact actually proves how evil the Reapers are... or just broken code. Not like the writing for the Reapers was ever really good though. |
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Post by shermos on Jun 25, 2021 22:21:39 GMT
You can not achieve a body count of 6.8 billion out of 7 billion and claim self defense. That is just a ridiculously bad faith argument on it's own. We are not given the pre MW Quarian population but they did have multiple planets so low balling it to say they had roughly the same population as current real world Earth of around 7 billion. We are told the Migrant Fleet has 17 million Quarians on it and they have maintained steady numbers since the end of the war. Being overly generous and lets say there are another 7 million Quarians out in the rest of the galaxy on pilgrimages or what have you. Bringing the total population up to 24 million total. This means the current Quarian population is 0.3% of the pre MW population.
Again we lack specific data but using the real world as a source it is estimated that children ages 0-14 years old make up 25% of the total population on earth in 2019. 25% of 7 billion is 1,750,000,000. Which means the Geth would have to not only kill 100% of the population ages 15+. But they would also have to kill around 1,726,000,000 children ages 0-14 year old to reduce the Quarian population down to 24 million individuals.
To reduce the Quarian population from 7 billion to 24 million individuals in 2 (earth) years would equal to 9,556,164 deaths a day. For reference New York City or London have populations around 8.4 and 8.9 million respectively. The death toll and death rate is staggering and unreal. The only possible way you can even vaugly claim self defense and account for the massive degree of Quarian deaths would be if the Quarians fought using exclusively nuclear bomb suicide vests and fired nuclear bomb bullets.
Sovereign wasn't active in the galaxy until around 2162 when it was found floating floating around an uncharted world. The Morning War was in 1895 and there were no Geth with Sovereign when it was discovered. And before that the Geth had maintained a strict isolation from everyone. Which was enforced at gun point.
Actually my argument lines up with Legion's statement because the Quarians and the rest of the races are being judged on their own merit. They either actively participated in the genocide of a race or sat by and let them do it. That is literally judging them based on their own merits.
The geth only fought and killed the Quarians when they kept attacking. The moment the Quarians disengaged the war was immediately over. The Quarians started the war and continued it. It was their own damn fault. This fact actually proves how evil the Reapers are... or just broken code. Not like the writing for the Reapers was ever really good though.
This. I've never been a fan of the AI will inevitably destroy its creators theory. The stupidity of the solution the Reapers represent adds insult to injury. This is my biggest problem with ME3 (an otherwise great game), and I hope the franchise moves away from it in future. The dark energy plot is there waiting to be continued.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 26, 2021 0:13:34 GMT
And in the context of your over all reply you are clearly not talking about a difficult and complex logical though process. You are using the derogatory version to say people are using complex arguments to justify the unjustifiable. And since you are using it in the derogatory manner it is not a compliment, it is an insult. You did not limit your reply to your own personal opinions about the ending. You not liking the ending and thinking they are shitty is perfectly fine because everyone has their own opinion. You took it a step further by out right insulting anyone who thinks differently then you do. I disagree. Anyone that can get that inventive, to make an argument in favour of the logic behind the endings, must have come up with a very inventive solution, if they make a good argument. Which is something that Bioware has not managed to do, in 9 years. That isn't what mental gymnastics means. Unless you are literally saying people who argue in favor of the logic behind the endings are inherently smarter then anyone else? Because that is an argument that I would disagree with. My opinion on the subject is that it is simple the individual's perspective. What details they give weight to and what they don't give weight to.
A great example is in Kabraxal's post below yours. They are quite literally justifying the death of over a billion 0-14 year olds in the Morning War claiming without proof that the Quarians kept attacking and the Geth only fought back in self defense. The only solid bit of information we have is that 17 million Quarians fled their home planet in their final stand to avoid complete genocide and only then did the Geth stop. They have put so much weight on the Legion spun narrative that the Geth are innocent angels they are literally willing to claim millions of 2 year olds were given rifles and told to go fight.
Also I've noticed a "good" argument doesn't exist because no matter how much effort, supporting evidence and logical sense anyone makes people will dismiss it off hand because it disagrees with them. I think I'd have a better chance at disproving the existence of god then getting anyone to change their mind about anything that has to do with mass effect.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 26, 2021 0:23:10 GMT
1.Difficult and complex logical thought processes, especially when performed effortlessly. That isn't what mental gymnastics means. I'll just leave this here. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 26, 2021 0:57:41 GMT
You can not achieve a body count of 6.8 billion out of 7 billion and claim self defense. That is just a ridiculously bad faith argument on it's own. We are not given the pre MW Quarian population but they did have multiple planets so low balling it to say they had roughly the same population as current real world Earth of around 7 billion. We are told the Migrant Fleet has 17 million Quarians on it and they have maintained steady numbers since the end of the war. Being overly generous and lets say there are another 7 million Quarians out in the rest of the galaxy on pilgrimages or what have you. Bringing the total population up to 24 million total. This means the current Quarian population is 0.3% of the pre MW population.
Again we lack specific data but using the real world as a source it is estimated that children ages 0-14 years old make up 25% of the total population on earth in 2019. 25% of 7 billion is 1,750,000,000. Which means the Geth would have to not only kill 100% of the population ages 15+. But they would also have to kill around 1,726,000,000 children ages 0-14 year old to reduce the Quarian population down to 24 million individuals.
To reduce the Quarian population from 7 billion to 24 million individuals in 2 (earth) years would equal to 9,556,164 deaths a day. For reference New York City or London have populations around 8.4 and 8.9 million respectively. The death toll and death rate is staggering and unreal. The only possible way you can even vaugly claim self defense and account for the massive degree of Quarian deaths would be if the Quarians fought using exclusively nuclear bomb suicide vests and fired nuclear bomb bullets.
Sovereign wasn't active in the galaxy until around 2162 when it was found floating floating around an uncharted world. The Morning War was in 1895 and there were no Geth with Sovereign when it was discovered. And before that the Geth had maintained a strict isolation from everyone. Which was enforced at gun point.
Actually my argument lines up with Legion's statement because the Quarians and the rest of the races are being judged on their own merit. They either actively participated in the genocide of a race or sat by and let them do it. That is literally judging them based on their own merits.
The geth only fought and killed the Quarians when they kept attacking. The moment the Quarians disengaged the war was immediately over. The Quarians started the war and continued it. It was their own damn fault. This fact actually proves how evil the Reapers are... or just broken code. Not like the writing for the Reapers was ever really good though.
What proof do you have of this? Because there is 2 years of war and conflict between the start of the war and the Quarians fleeting their home system at the end of the war. To say that single example is how the entire 2 year war went is....stretching it. Your argument also raises several questions that you don't seem to have considered.
1. If the Geth gained void superiority and drove the Quarians from all their coloines back to their home world then why did the Geth not chose to leave? They had the advantage, they had the capability and they certainly had the motive to go though that relay and disappear into the void to build a new home for the Geth. One the Quarians wouldn't be able to find so easily.
2. If the Geth had such over whelming advantage and didn't want to fight the Quarians then why did they not drive them back to Rannoch, destroy their fleets and then block aid the planet. Engaging in surgical strikes against any ship building manufacturing and basically turn Rannoch into a prison planet? The Qurians would be confined to the planet's surface and unable to harm the Geth in space and on other planets. And the Geth would maintain a block aid around the planet destroying any ship that attempts to leave while leaving the Quarians to live without issue.
Two valid possible alternatives that would avoid killing any more Quarians then absolutely necessary. They were never utilized. Legion never hints that they were even tried. What we can say for sure is that were were a couple million bleached skulls of dead 1 year old Quarians killed by the Geth decorating the grounds of Rannoch and other various colonies.
We also know that during the dive into the Geth Consensus that Legion wasn't being entirely honest about events. If you had romanced Tali in ME2 and continued it in ME3 when Shepard asks why all the Quarians have masks and Legion tells you that the images are created using their memories. Shepard will state that they have seen Quarians without their mask on. Or at least one. Which Legion will respond some what lamely that it doesn't match historical records. Which is a little suspect given there would be no way for the Quarians to have radically evolved that much in 300 years. I'm not saying that Legion made everything up but if you are very selective of the history you show you can make even someone like Joseph Stalin look like a great guy. Particularly since right after Legion uploaded the Geth to prime bodies without telling Shepard.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 26, 2021 1:01:16 GMT
1.Difficult and complex logical thought processes, especially when performed effortlessly. That isn't what mental gymnastics means. I'll just leave this here. Thinking the endings are fine is not the same as performing long division in your head without a calculator.
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Kabraxal
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kabraxal on Jun 26, 2021 17:00:39 GMT
The geth only fought and killed the Quarians when they kept attacking. The moment the Quarians disengaged the war was immediately over. The Quarians started the war and continued it. It was their own damn fault. This fact actually proves how evil the Reapers are... or just broken code. Not like the writing for the Reapers was ever really good though.
What proof do you have of this? Because there is 2 years of war and conflict between the start of the war and the Quarians fleeting their home system at the end of the war. To say that single example is how the entire 2 year war went is....stretching it. Your argument also raises several questions that you don't seem to have considered.
1. If the Geth gained void superiority and drove the Quarians from all their coloines back to their home world then why did the Geth not chose to leave? They had the advantage, they had the capability and they certainly had the motive to go though that relay and disappear into the void to build a new home for the Geth. One the Quarians wouldn't be able to find so easily.
2. If the Geth had such over whelming advantage and didn't want to fight the Quarians then why did they not drive them back to Rannoch, destroy their fleets and then block aid the planet. Engaging in surgical strikes against any ship building manufacturing and basically turn Rannoch into a prison planet? The Qurians would be confined to the planet's surface and unable to harm the Geth in space and on other planets. And the Geth would maintain a block aid around the planet destroying any ship that attempts to leave while leaving the Quarians to live without issue.
Two valid possible alternatives that would avoid killing any more Quarians then absolutely necessary. They were never utilized. Legion never hints that they were even tried. What we can say for sure is that were were a couple million bleached skulls of dead 1 year old Quarians killed by the Geth decorating the grounds of Rannoch and other various colonies.
We also know that during the dive into the Geth Consensus that Legion wasn't being entirely honest about events. If you had romanced Tali in ME2 and continued it in ME3 when Shepard asks why all the Quarians have masks and Legion tells you that the images are created using their memories. Shepard will state that they have seen Quarians without their mask on. Or at least one. Which Legion will respond some what lamely that it doesn't match historical records. Which is a little suspect given there would be no way for the Quarians to have radically evolved that much in 300 years. I'm not saying that Legion made everything up but if you are very selective of the history you show you can make even someone like Joseph Stalin look like a great guy. Particularly since right after Legion uploaded the Geth to prime bodies without telling Shepard.
So you are just going to claim Legion may be twisting the truth while blindly believing the Reaper’s? All the in game evidence points to the Quarians starting and continuing the war, the Geth allowing them to escape, and the Quarians then being stupid enough to attack the non hostile geth again. The Quarians had always been the instigators to the non heretics. The heretics were influenced by the Reapers. Even Tali confirms the Quarians started the war in ME1. So I don’t know why you have such a hard time accepting what multiple games have said... o right, to defend one of the worst written parts in the trilogy that contradicts not just huge swaths of the trilogy, but itself. The Catalyst was a failure in writing. |
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