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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2021 19:55:05 GMT
I just didn't specify councilor because I didn't think it was that relevant to my point. The detail is that if Udina leads an all-human council, Shepard cannot get his/her spectre status back in ME2. If Anderson leads an all-human council, Shepard can get specture status because Anderson overrides everyone on the ocuncil. If Udina leadsta multi-species council (regardless of whether it's the first council or the replacement one), Shepard can also get spectre status because Anderson (as Udina's assistant) goes behind Udina's back directly to the other species members of the council.
To me, it's all wrong the way Bioware wrote it... too focused on Udina. With an all-human council, Shepard should have had the easiest time getting spectre status because he/she is, to that point, the only human representative on the spectres. In addition, an all-human council should have been as gung-ho about appointing more humans to the spectres as C-Sec was about recruiting human captains. If you're going to initiated an effective "coup" by virtue of the deaths of the original councillors, then humanity should have ensured they controlled all aspects of the police force. It's just how it's done.
The only council that should have possible been reluctant about reinstating Shepard should have been a the multi-species replacement one. In any other case, Shepard could be seen as a loyal spectre agent infiltrating a suspect organization... and anything he/she does there is maintained as being "spectre business" and above the law.
I should've known you were talking about Udina I hate that guy, another blind politician who almost let Sovereign complete his plans. That's another point that's poorly written though... Udina tells Shepard point blank that he's going to push the colonies for all their worth in order to support the war effort and "Broker enough trade to resupply Hackett's fleet.". I can't figure out why Shepard would be even remotely suspicious of him when the Salarian councillor tells him that Udina is moving large sums of money around. Seems to me like they should have nailed him for something else... a rumor, perhaps, of his collaborating with The Illusive Man instead.
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Post by Element Zero on Jul 27, 2021 3:35:45 GMT
I should've known you were talking about Udina I hate that guy, another blind politician who almost let Sovereign complete his plans. That's another point that's poorly written though... Udina tells Shepard point blank that he's going to push the colonies for all their worth in order to support the war effort and "Broker enough trade to resupply Hackett's fleet.". I can't figure out why Shepard would be even remotely suspicious of him when the Salarian councillor tells him that Udina is moving large sums of money around. Seems to me like they should have nailed him for something else... a rumor, perhaps, of his collaborating with The Illusive Man instead. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the Salarian's intention was. Moving money isn't a crime. And as you say, it isn't particularly out of place given the circumstances. I always thought it was clear that the Salarian Councilor had a high degree or certainty in regard to the where and why. Valern/Isheel knew about Cerberus and wanted Shepard's help to ease and legitimize Udina's arrest and removal. Shepard just arrived a bit too late to preempt the coup.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2021 6:38:24 GMT
That's another point that's poorly written though... Udina tells Shepard point blank that he's going to push the colonies for all their worth in order to support the war effort and "Broker enough trade to resupply Hackett's fleet.". I can't figure out why Shepard would be even remotely suspicious of him when the Salarian councillor tells him that Udina is moving large sums of money around. Seems to me like they should have nailed him for something else... a rumor, perhaps, of his collaborating with The Illusive Man instead. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the Salarian's intention was. Moving money isn't a crime. And as you say, it isn't particularly out of place given the circumstances. I always thought it was clear that the Salarian Councilor had a high degree or certainty in regard to the where and why. Valern/Isheel knew about Cerberus and wanted Shepard's help to ease and legitimize Udina's arrest and removal. Shepard just arrived a bit too late to preempt the coup. Still, my beef lies in how it is written... i.e. told to the player by Valern. Logically, Shepard would not have batted an eye at such an accusation as moving money... particularly if Shepard cured the genophage basically at the expense of the Salarians pulling their support for the Crucible in the first place. In that case, the Salarians have already tried to sucker Shepard into one betrayal, and are now trying to encourage him/her to betray the human councilor on a very flimsy accusation of moving money? The Salarians are lucky Shepard agreed to meet with Valern at all at that point.
It only works in the game because nothing after Tuchanka opens up until after the player does the Citadel coup mission... basically forcing players to return to the Citadel as they run out of missions to do otherwise.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 30, 2021 21:18:46 GMT
You know I was thinking what Javik says in ME3 about Shepard knowing for two years about the imminent attack by the Reapers. In my opinion the Alliance and the Council really dropped the ball. They had 2 whole years to prepare and did nothing but deny the threat, and then when Shepard defeats the Collectors and saves an untold number of human colonies, what is his reward? Imprisonment even though he disassociated himself from Cerberus and came back to the Alliance. In my opinion if the Alliance and the Council had taken the Reaper threat seriously, they could have been better prepared for the Reapers, since they had close to 3 years to prepare. Some might say they didn't buy into except, from Citadel DLC, we know that's false. They knew the threat was real but put their heads in the ground hoping it wouldn't actually happen.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 30, 2021 21:26:45 GMT
Those three years of preparation would have done absolutely nothing. It is beaten over our heads throughout ME3 that conventional warfare would not work against them. As for being imprisoned, that tends to happen when you work for a terrorist supremacist organization. The fact they left it is irrelevant (and of course if you play Arrival it’s because you murdered 300,000 innocent civilians thus making you among the worst war criminals in human history). Ah, I forgot about the 300,000 Batarians who were killed since I hate that dlc and chose to put it out of my mind. About working for Cerberus, if the Alliance and the Council weren't so incompetent and would have done something about the missing colonists, Shepard wouldn't need Cerberus. Aside from the dead Batarians which I agree with you was horrific. Shepard needed to do what had to be done to save the human colonies. To be fair, they were dead regardless of Shepard's involvement. If you didn't own/play the DLC, Shepard still ends up in jail for working with Cerberus. Warning the batarians doesn't make any difference with the outcome, just with Shepard's moral compass. That said, Shepard shouldn't have been jailed for working with Cerberus. The Council gave him the okay, at least if you played Paragon or Paragade. While they don't have any jurisdiction over the Systems Alliance I would think that would at least give some leeway. Despite everything I just wrote, I thought there was an implication that he was being held as a form of protection from the batarians and/or Cerberus.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2021 21:40:06 GMT
Ah, I forgot about the 300,000 Batarians who were killed since I hate that dlc and chose to put it out of my mind. About working for Cerberus, if the Alliance and the Council weren't so incompetent and would have done something about the missing colonists, Shepard wouldn't need Cerberus. Aside from the dead Batarians which I agree with you was horrific. Shepard needed to do what had to be done to save the human colonies. To be fair, they were dead regardless of Shepard's involvement. If you didn't own/play the DLC, Shepard still ends up in jail for working with Cerberus. Warning the batarians doesn't make any difference with the outcome, just with Shepard's moral compass. That said, Shepard shouldn't have been jailed for working with Cerberus. The Council gave him the okay, at least if you played Paragon or Paragade. While they don't have any jurisdiction over the Systems Alliance I would think that would at least give some leeway. Despite everything I just wrote, I thought there was an implication that he was being held as a form of protection from the batarians and/or Cerberus. As I wrote upthread... technically, it is not stated in ME3 that Shepard is put in detection for working with Cerberus. If the player does not do Arrival, then Anderson states that Shepard is in detection for "the sh*t you've done." This could be a reference to working with Cerberus or it could be for any number of specific actions Shepard may have done during that time or in ME1... including blowing up a lab on Virmire, releasing a rachni queen, letting Balak go free to save Kate, or sending data to the Shadow Broker after Kohoku's death. Shepard can also do a number of nasty things in the course of doing several of the side mission in ME2... missions that are not directly related to stopping the Collectors and have not be "assigned" to Shepard by TIM. Even for paragon Shepards, the list of "sh*t" done can be long and varied over the length of ME1 and ME2.
If Arrival is done, Anderson clearly states that it is for the Aratoht incident and Hackett clearly indicates that, although he can delay that consequence to enable Shepard to "finish whatever he needs to do" in ME2, he cannot stop it entirely. The Batarians will demand, ultimately, that Shepard be held accountable for his actions there... and the Alliance does not want to start a war with the Batarians over it... especially with the "Reapers at the galaxy's edge."
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Post by Element Zero on Jul 31, 2021 22:21:26 GMT
Ah, I forgot about the 300,000 Batarians who were killed since I hate that dlc and chose to put it out of my mind. About working for Cerberus, if the Alliance and the Council weren't so incompetent and would have done something about the missing colonists, Shepard wouldn't need Cerberus. Aside from the dead Batarians which I agree with you was horrific. Shepard needed to do what had to be done to save the human colonies. To be fair, they were dead regardless of Shepard's involvement. If you didn't own/play the DLC, Shepard still ends up in jail for working with Cerberus. Warning the batarians doesn't make any difference with the outcome, just with Shepard's moral compass. That said, Shepard shouldn't have been jailed for working with Cerberus. The Council gave him the okay, at least if you played Paragon or Paragade. While they don't have any jurisdiction over the Systems Alliance I would think that would at least give some leeway. Despite everything I just wrote, I thought there was an implication that he was being held as a form of protection from the batarians and/or Cerberus. A Shepard who has completed Arrival tells Grunt explicitly, "They locked me up to keep the Batarians off me." It makes sense, to avoid war, as everyone seems to agree in the posts I've read. I just wouldn't have decided on Arrival as the transitional DLC. I didn't mind the destruction of Aratoht, since it was the right choice under those circumstances. I just don't think it was a great story. It ended up being a harbinger (lowercase h) of the hamfisted writing in ME3. I hated the unrealistic focus on Earth in ME3, but whatever. So you need Shepard to begin the game on Earth. Cool. Why can't he be in Vancouver to meet with Alliance leadership? Maybe he's just now reporting on his activities with Cerberus? Maybe, if he doesn't blow up a solar system, he's been pursuing options in the intervening 6 months; and now he's debriefing after his latest outing? I can think of all sorts of reasons for Shepard to be on Earth that don't require incarceration. It was a weird choice, but plenty of things got really weird or forced by the time we got to ME3. The writing went from attempting to be fairly sci-fi in ME1 to Hollywood rule of cool in ME3.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 1, 2021 2:33:32 GMT
A Shepard who has completed Arrival tells Grunt explicitly, "They locked me up to keep the Batarians off me." It makes sense, to avoid war, as everyone seems to agree in the posts I've read. I knew I saw it somewhere! I just wouldn't have decided on Arrival as the transitional DLC. It's what makes sense to me. Not a super fan of the DLC myself but I think the transition was perfect. I hated the unrealistic focus on Earth in ME3, but whatever. Except it shouldn't be unrealistic if you played ME2 and followed the goal of the Collectors. They were harvesting humans to create a new Reaper. They failed. Doesn't mean the Reapers still don't want humanity for the next Reaper. They want it because Shepard was able to stop Sovereign in ME1 and proved their race to be the most suitable to be a new Reaper. The problem lies in ME1. That's where humanity was established as being special. Everything else flowed out of that.
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Post by Element Zero on Aug 1, 2021 17:24:15 GMT
A Shepard who has completed Arrival tells Grunt explicitly, "They locked me up to keep the Batarians off me." It makes sense, to avoid war, as everyone seems to agree in the posts I've read. I knew I saw it somewhere! I just wouldn't have decided on Arrival as the transitional DLC. It's what makes sense to me. Not a super fan of the DLC myself but I think the transition was perfect. I hated the unrealistic focus on Earth in ME3, but whatever. Except it shouldn't be unrealistic if you played ME2 and followed the goal of the Collectors. They were harvesting humans to create a new Reaper. They failed. Doesn't mean the Reapers still don't want humanity for the next Reaper. They want it because Shepard was able to stop Sovereign in ME1 and proved their race to be the most suitable to be a new Reaper. The problem lies in ME1. That's where humanity was established as being special. Everything else flowed out of that. I don't mind the fixation on humanity. I dislike the fixation on Earth. Way before the Reapers moved the Citadel, and before that possibility was even an idea in anyone's mind, Shepard was rallying forces to fight the Reapers save Earth. Shepard's goal was rarely ever expressed as, "I need your help to build and deploy the Crucible." It was always, "Primarch, Earth needs the Turian fleets." Major Kirrahe doesn't say, "You'll have my help defeating the Reapers." Rather it was, "You'll have my help retaking Earth." It was ridiculous. Earth was not unique or special as far as anyone could tell before Priority Earth. It was just another homeworld under attack. I recall thinking the "Take Back Earth" marketing was absurd for anyone who had actually played the first two games and understood the setting and enemy. I figured it was just marketing to bring in the Halo crowd; that is gamers who might like the series but hadn't yet played. Then, the ME3 story revolved around the same weird mantra. I have no issue with the Reapers focusing on humanity. That was telegraphed in ME2. I took exception to the strange obsession that Shepard had with Earth, long before it made sense, when the focus should've been on stopping the Reapers.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 1, 2021 19:28:39 GMT
I don't mind the fixation on humanity. I dislike the fixation on Earth. Ah. Understood. From an in-game perspective there's no reason anyone would believe Earth and humanity were special. They'd be viewed as just another race under attack. Even if they did explain, who would believe them? The only people who would collaborate the story were working with Cerberus at the time. And it would be jumping through hoops to get them anyway.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 2, 2021 1:43:53 GMT
I don't mind the fixation on humanity. I dislike the fixation on Earth. Way before the Reapers moved the Citadel, and before that possibility was even an idea in anyone's mind, Shepard was rallying forces to fight the Reapers save Earth. Shepard's goal was rarely ever expressed as, "I need your help to build and deploy the Crucible." It was always, "Primarch, Earth needs the Turian fleets." Major Kirrahe doesn't say, "You'll have my help defeating the Reapers." Rather it was, "You'll have my help retaking Earth." It was ridiculous. Earth was not unique or special as far as anyone could tell before Priority Earth. It was just another homeworld under attack. I recall thinking the "Take Back Earth" marketing was absurd for anyone who had actually played the first two games and understood the setting and enemy. I figured it was just marketing to bring in the Halo crowd; that is gamers who might like the series but hadn't yet played. Then, the ME3 story revolved around the same weird mantra. I have no issue with the Reapers focusing on humanity. That was telegraphed in ME2. I took exception to the strange obsession that Shepard had with Earth, long before it made sense, when the focus should've been on stopping the Reapers. It's because of Anderson. Shepard had to go back to earth to have that touchy-feely scene with Anderson. Look how stupid the beam run was. It was done like that so only Anderson and Shepard can be on the Citadel for the scene. Had the reapers left the Citadel where it was, that touchy-feely scene couldn't happen. It was all done for the feels. I don't have a problem with Shepard saying this, that, and the other thing about earth, but it didn't make sense for the other species to say the same.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2021 4:12:14 GMT
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 3, 2021 0:54:47 GMT
In my opinion if the Alliance and the Council had taken the Reaper threat seriously, they could have been better prepared for the Reapers, since they had close to 3 years to prepare. I've heard it said before that we wouldn't have been prepared no matter what. Vega said the same. Kind of irrelevant because trying was better than nothing. Even preparing for some level of survival is better than nothing. The Protheans managed, if badly, and we could easily have learned from their example. We even knew mini-relays could be built that were outside of Reaper control! So, yeah, they screwed up but there was no realistic way to stop them besides deus ex machina. .
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Post by talyn82 on Aug 3, 2021 1:50:05 GMT
In my opinion if the Alliance and the Council had taken the Reaper threat seriously, they could have been better prepared for the Reapers, since they had close to 3 years to prepare. I've heard it said before that we wouldn't have been prepared no matter what. Vega said the same. Kind of irrelevant because trying was better than nothing. Even preparing for some level of survival is better than nothing. The Protheans managed, if badly, and we could easily have learned from their example. We even knew mini-relays could be built that were outside of Reaper control! So, yeah, they screwed up but there was no realistic way to stop them besides deus ex machina. . Yeah, I've been replaying ME3 and many including Shepard have said that we cannot defeat the Reapers through conventional means. Still they could have gone and explored Prothean planets. I mean they could have found out about the Prothean weapon sooner and have it built by the time the Reapers left Dark Space. Anything is better than sitting and around and doing nothing.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 3, 2021 1:56:33 GMT
I've heard it said before that we wouldn't have been prepared no matter what. Vega said the same. Kind of irrelevant because trying was better than nothing. Even preparing for some level of survival is better than nothing. The Protheans managed, if badly, and we could easily have learned from their example. We even knew mini-relays could be built that were outside of Reaper control! So, yeah, they screwed up but there was no realistic way to stop them besides deus ex machina. . Yeah, I've been replaying ME3 and many including Shepard have said that we cannot defeat the Reapers through conventional means. Still they could have gone and explored Prothean planets. I mean they could have found out about the Prothean weapon sooner and have it built by the time the Reapers left Dark Space. Anything is better than sitting and around and doing nothing. Nah, it's better for the Shadow Broker to step away from her life of leisure to investigate artifacts on Mars. And only begin to figure things out in the nick of time!
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Post by winterking on Aug 6, 2021 9:03:11 GMT
Really, more than the incompetence, what pisses me off is the outright denial of the Reaper threat by the Council.
It seems to serve only the purpose of railroading Shepard into working with Cerberus but ffs, they were plenty of ways of pulling that off without going into full denial. Like: "It's the Terminus systems colonies that are getting attacked so we can't really do anything there but we can send you to investigate and while you're at it you will be able to pass information to us about Cerberus".
Even Tali mentions Shepard being undercover with Cerberus which shows that the idea crossed their mind. Instead they went with "Ah yes, Reapers".
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Post by winterking on Aug 6, 2021 9:07:13 GMT
I've heard it said before that we wouldn't have been prepared no matter what. Vega said the same. Kind of irrelevant because trying was better than nothing. Even preparing for some level of survival is better than nothing. The Protheans managed, if badly, and we could easily have learned from their example. We even knew mini-relays could be built that were outside of Reaper control! So, yeah, they screwed up but there was no realistic way to stop them besides deus ex machina. . Yeah, I've been replaying ME3 and many including Shepard have said that we cannot defeat the Reapers through conventional means. Still they could have gone and explored Prothean planets. I mean they could have found out about the Prothean weapon sooner and have it built by the time the Reapers left Dark Space. Anything is better than sitting and around and doing nothing. Finding out about the Prothean weapon should've been the plot of ME2.
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Post by Psychevore on Aug 11, 2021 13:52:41 GMT
We've been hearing about, no, we've KNOWN about climate change for over 50 years now. Only in the last decade or so we've sprung into action and still it's just half assed, with a lot of people, especially the rich and powerful and their bootlickers, wanting things to stay just the way they are. After all, that's what made them rich and powerful.
I think the Council and Alliance are acting very true to realism, I'd say.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Aug 11, 2021 17:07:31 GMT
The entire purpose of the Council seems to be to act as a foil for Shepard. They're the comic relief. This especially applies to Udina until ME3. You're the cop in an action movie that goes around blowing up everything but always gets the bad guy, and they're the angry captain who does nothing but yell at you.
God, some little kid in the neighborhood let out a scream or rather a screech that sounded like a banshee. I looked out the window and they were just playing like normal. Kids today.
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Post by AnDromedary on Aug 11, 2021 17:53:31 GMT
The entire purpose of the Council seems to be to act as a foil for Shepard. They're the comic relief. This especially applies to Udina until ME3. You're the cop in an action movie that goes around blowing up everything but always gets the bad guy, and they're the angry captain who does nothing but yell at you. God, some little kid in the neighborhood let out a scream or rather a screech that sounded like a banshee. I looked out the window and they were just playing like normal. Kids today. Hmmmm, I actually thought Udina was at his most reasonable in ME3. That is until the whole stupidity with the coup and all. But in the beginning of the game, when you can talk to him in his office and he is all shocked about everyone he knew on Arcturus Station dying and stuff, I thought that was him at his most human.
In ME1 and 2 he seems to just be mad about everything all the time, no matter what. At least in ME3, he started to have some personality. Then that ridiculous coup happened and that was the end of it.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 13, 2021 6:12:04 GMT
Hmmmm, I actually thought Udina was at his most reasonable in ME3. That is until the whole stupidity with the coup and all. But in the beginning of the game, when you can talk to him in his office and he is all shocked about everyone he knew on Arcturus Station dying and stuff, I thought that was him at his most human. Of course he's like that. He realized what a colossal idiot he was in discounting everything Shepard had ever said about the Reapers.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 13, 2021 12:53:47 GMT
Hmmmm, I actually thought Udina was at his most reasonable in ME3. That is until the whole stupidity with the coup and all. But in the beginning of the game, when you can talk to him in his office and he is all shocked about everyone he knew on Arcturus Station dying and stuff, I thought that was him at his most human. Of course he's like that. He realized what a colossal idiot he was in discounting everything Shepard had ever said about the Reapers. Didn't the Alliance do the same? From the moment the SR1 is destroyed until the reapers show up on Earth, they turned the other cheek. It's all about the I don't care attitude.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 13, 2021 16:57:10 GMT
Of course he's like that. He realized what a colossal idiot he was in discounting everything Shepard had ever said about the Reapers. Didn't the Alliance do the same? From the moment the SR1 is destroyed until the reapers show up on Earth, they turned the other cheek. It's all about the I don't care attitude. Except Anderson. They ignored him.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 13, 2021 17:03:59 GMT
Didn't the Alliance do the same? From the moment the SR1 is destroyed until the reapers show up on Earth, they turned the other cheek. It's all about the I don't care attitude. Except Anderson. They ignored him. And Hackett as well, I think.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 13, 2021 17:19:07 GMT
Except Anderson. They ignored him. And Hackett as well, I think. I'm not sure Hackett knw what was going on with Arrival. He only knew his agent went dark. We don't actually get a feel for how Hackett feels about it. He was an Admiral so you'd think his word had some impact. In the Navy, Admiral is the highest obtainable rank. Maybe he's a Vice Admiral, which means he's "only" in charge of fleets of ships. His word should still have some major impact. Since the Alliance continued to ignore the Reaper threat the only assumption is that Hackett was either not convinced or not sure enough to take a stand. OTOH, he recruited Liara to explore Prothean ruins on Mars. He apparently trusted her based on ME2 and Shepard's dog tags. So, I don't really know. It still comes down to Hackett remaining silent or just not having the sway necessary to change minds. I'd think this would be the sort of thing previously related to Shepard or Anderson.
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