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Post by themikefest on Nov 16, 2021 18:00:22 GMT
ME is the story of humanity. Period. It wasn’t ever since ME2. Only ME1 can be claimed to be that. It was always about humanity. ME3 proved that. Without humanity, the other species would never have destroyed the reapers. The other species wanted humanity do their dirty work. I'm surprised they didn't ask Shepard to hold their claw/paw/tentacles/whatever while walking them to the restroom to go potty. Should have ME4 featuring Shepard as King/Queen of the Milky Way with the other species bowing before him/her.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 16, 2021 21:23:13 GMT
ME 2 also introduces the (in-game) fact that humans are more genetically diverse; and so more capable; than every other species in the galaxy.
Both destroying the "humans as underdogs" theme BioWare was going for as well as subtly giving a wink & a nod of approval to eugenists in the Mass Effect universe.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 16, 2021 23:33:37 GMT
ME is the story of humanity. Period.
I don't know. It seems like some of the portrayal is open to interpretation. At least, in my opinion.
I would agree with your statement for the first two games, but not for ME3 or Andromeda. Are you including Andromeda in your statement? Mass Effect 3 is a far-reaching, galactic tale viewed through the lens of humanity's perspective, but, barring the showdown being brought to Earth, the circumstances of the story affected every race equally. And, despite the lie offered during marketing, Andromeda's story had no element specifically tied to humanity. The Pathfinder could have been any race, and the story being told would have been exactly the same.
The galaxy was at stake throughout the entire MET. Shepard's decisions led to the defeat of Sovereign. That, in turn, led to the Collectors following Shepard and destroying the SR1. The Collectors then created a human Reaper because they were the species deemed best to deal with future cycles. Without Shepard, there wasn't a chance in hell of the galaxy being reunited. Even then, Shepard couldn't have done it without Anderson and Hackett; Shepard would never have gone to the SR2 or Mars without those two. I can't see how you'd see any part of the MET that wasn't about humanity being crucial in the defeat of the Reapers. MEA. We've got multiple Pathfinders, sure. There were multiple Spectres and N7s in the MET but they were basically useless. Same with the other Pathfinders in MEA. Who created SAM? A human. What Pathfinders were in any way useful in MEA? Anyone with the surname of Ryder. Humans. Absolutely nothing happened without Alec and one of his twins. Nothing at all. Was a team required? Sure. The Nexus was dead until humans arrived. Sorry, not seeing how the entire ME series isn't the story of humanity. The rest are basically bit players, except Liara because the devs loved her so much.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 17, 2021 0:41:55 GMT
Even then, Shepard couldn't have done it without Anderson and Hackett; Shepard would never have gone to the SR2 or Mars without those two. While I agree with your post, I would say Cerberus did more than anything the Alliance did. They were the one's to bring back Shepard. They were the one's to give Shepard the SR2 and the resources to deal with the collectors. What would the Alliance have done if Cerberus didn't do anything? Without Cerberus, Shepard would never have been able to destroy the reapers. Humanity #1.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 17, 2021 13:59:10 GMT
I don't know. It seems like some of the portrayal is open to interpretation. At least, in my opinion.
I would agree with your statement for the first two games, but not for ME3 or Andromeda. Are you including Andromeda in your statement? Mass Effect 3 is a far-reaching, galactic tale viewed through the lens of humanity's perspective, but, barring the showdown being brought to Earth, the circumstances of the story affected every race equally. And, despite the lie offered during marketing, Andromeda's story had no element specifically tied to humanity. The Pathfinder could have been any race, and the story being told would have been exactly the same.
The galaxy was at stake throughout the entire MET. Shepard's decisions led to the defeat of Sovereign. That, in turn, led to the Collectors following Shepard and destroying the SR1. The Collectors then created a human Reaper because they were the species deemed best to deal with future cycles. Without Shepard, there wasn't a chance in hell of the galaxy being reunited. Even then, Shepard couldn't have done it without Anderson and Hackett; Shepard would never have gone to the SR2 or Mars without those two. I can't see how you'd see any part of the MET that wasn't about humanity being crucial in the defeat of the Reapers. MEA. We've got multiple Pathfinders, sure. There were multiple Spectres and N7s in the MET but they were basically useless. Same with the other Pathfinders in MEA. Who created SAM? A human. What Pathfinders were in any way useful in MEA? Anyone with the surname of Ryder. Humans. Absolutely nothing happened without Alec and one of his twins. Nothing at all. Was a team required? Sure. The Nexus was dead until humans arrived. Sorry, not seeing how the entire ME series isn't the story of humanity. The rest are basically bit players, except Liara because the devs loved her so much. This, even more than animation or dialogue restrictions, I feel is why we will never see an alien as a protagonist choice. It's too engrained in the setting that humans are the Übermensch.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Nov 17, 2021 14:48:18 GMT
Huh, I always thought the human Reaper was made because the Reapers (correctly) deduced Shepard to be their greatest threat, and that if Shepard was their greatest threat they would also have the most potential... so making a human Reaper was just the Reapers' way of perfecting their design.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 17, 2021 16:04:19 GMT
Huh, I always thought the human Reaper was made because the Reapers (correctly) deduced Shepard to be their greatest threat, and that if Shepard was their greatest threat they would also have the most potential... so making a human Reaper was just the Reapers' way of perfecting their design. They did, but then the writing for ME 2 also had humans as being genetically more diverse than every other species in the galaxy. Doubling down on the theme of humans are special to the point where; according to the rules of the setting; your average joe human is automatically better at nearly everything compared to specialists in other species thanks to our magical genes.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 17, 2021 17:12:16 GMT
The most genetically diverse thing was so stupid. We aren’t even close the most genetically diverse species on our own planet, yet we are of the galaxy? Even more than the species that melds with other species to manipulate and diversify their genes?
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Post by ewigDunkelheit on Nov 17, 2021 18:11:28 GMT
The Pathfinder could have been any race, and the story being told would have been exactly the same.
The galaxy was at stake throughout the entire MET. Shepard's decisions led to the defeat of Sovereign. That, in turn, led to the Collectors following Shepard and destroying the SR1. The Collectors then created a human Reaper because they were the species deemed best to deal with future cycles. Without Shepard, there wasn't a chance in hell of the galaxy being reunited. Even then, Shepard couldn't have done it without Anderson and Hackett; Shepard would never have gone to the SR2 or Mars without those two. I can't see how you'd see any part of the MET that wasn't about humanity being crucial in the defeat of the Reapers. MEA. We've got multiple Pathfinders, sure. There were multiple Spectres and N7s in the MET but they were basically useless. Same with the other Pathfinders in MEA. Who created SAM? A human. What Pathfinders were in any way useful in MEA? Anyone with the surname of Ryder. Humans. Absolutely nothing happened without Alec and one of his twins. Nothing at all. Was a team required? Sure. The Nexus was dead until humans arrived. Sorry, not seeing how the entire ME series isn't the story of humanity. The rest are basically bit players, except Liara because the devs loved her so much. Humanity was served in the first game by achieving and stepping into a new role. The second game was focused on a threat and conflict that was specifically centered around and targeting humanity (within the confines of this singular title). In Mass Effect 3, with the assistance of progressive and non-insular STG agents, Kalros, independent and self-actualizing Geth, and a number of former allies and associates, Shepard spearheaded an alliance that managed to defeat the Reapers. Humanity played a pivotal role, amongst numerous other races, with each race having their plight, and then strength and support highlighted in their own segment. For Andromeda, I still assert that each Pathfinder had the same role, with the same potential story, and that the discovery and colonization of planets in Andromeda was not specific to humanity. The entire arc of the Turian Pathfinder could have been the humans instead, as an example. The human ark could have been more severely damaged by the Scourge, and Alec could have been dying when found by the game's Turian protagonist, and Cora could be uncertain about taking the role, and the Turian protagonist could choose to either convince her to become the Pathfinder, or decline the role. As mentioned in my previous post, this is my interpretation, so I will agree to disagree.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Nov 17, 2021 19:03:42 GMT
It wasn’t ever since ME2. Only ME1 can be claimed to be that. It was always about humanity. ME3 proved that. Without humanity, the other species would never have destroyed the reapers. The other species wanted humanity do their dirty work. I'm surprised they didn't ask Shepard to hold their claw/paw/tentacles/whatever while walking them to the restroom to go potty. Should have ME4 featuring Shepard as King/Queen of the Milky Way with the other species bowing before him/her. Isn't that the control ending?
I just couldn't help it.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Nov 17, 2021 19:04:40 GMT
Even then, Shepard couldn't have done it without Anderson and Hackett; Shepard would never have gone to the SR2 or Mars without those two. While I agree with your post, I would say Cerberus did more than anything the Alliance did. They were the one's to bring back Shepard. They were the one's to give Shepard the SR2 and the resources to deal with the collectors. What would the Alliance have done if Cerberus didn't do anything? Without Cerberus, Shepard would never have been able to destroy the reapers. Humanity #1. And in ME3 they did far more damage then anything they did to help.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 17, 2021 19:09:45 GMT
The most genetically diverse thing was so stupid. We aren’t even close the most genetically diverse species on our own planet, yet we are of the galaxy? Even more than the species that melds with other species to manipulate and diversify their genes? I agree. Though BioWare doesn't. They specifically added this aspect of the lore into the series because they feel that humans are the end all, be all of the setting. Granted this is the most asinine attempt at propping us up. But the whole saga is littered with subtle nods and writer fiats that set up the human race as the absolute best species in the galaxy; two galaxies if you include Andromeda. That's the biggest reason why I think we won't ever get to see a playable alien protagonist because in the eyes of BioWare: Why would anyone want to play as Jimmy Olsen when we've been playing as Superman this whole time?
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Post by Felya87 on Nov 17, 2021 19:12:23 GMT
For "humanity" being the "central focus"(I'd say it was mostly just marketing talk after ME2) it's the most non-talked-about race in the ME universe. Like, what we know about the ME humans? almost nothing. Only that there is Cerberus. I sometime forget that Humanity is not just Cerberus and the most-vague-ever-military-organization-that-resemble-Americhuh-military-ever-because-the-rest-of-the-world-doesn't-exist-for-Americhu, the Alliance. Like, what about others factions on Earth? I can't believe China, or Russia, or EU (just to name a few) are ok with a very American-centered govern (at least apparently) being the face of the Human race. What about internal conflict? What about different ideology? what about nations that don't want to loose their indipendence under the Alliance? the game itself want to put on a pedestal the "variety" in Human thoughts and genetics, but have never actually given in game example of this variety. I can't believe Humanity is this big mess of differences, but not even an example is given to explain how actually is the situation on Earth, aside a very small, very vague paragraph in the the Codex.
For being the "protagonist" in the game, Humanity is very much ignored by the ME writing.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 17, 2021 19:21:24 GMT
While I agree with your post, I would say Cerberus did more than anything the Alliance did. They were the one's to bring back Shepard. They were the one's to give Shepard the SR2 and the resources to deal with the collectors. What would the Alliance have done if Cerberus didn't do anything? Without Cerberus, Shepard would never have been able to destroy the reapers. Humanity #1. And in ME3 they did far more damage then anything they did to help. And how many lives could have been saved had the asari revealed the artifact earlier? I know about Cerberus in ME3. They were turned into the keystone cops. What they did in ME2 gave the galaxy a chance to destroy the reapers. If they didn't bring Shepard back, what would have happened? With the collectors? The reapers? There wouldn't be an SR2.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Nov 17, 2021 19:44:38 GMT
And in ME3 they did far more damage then anything they did to help. And how many lives could have been saved had the asari revealed the artifact earlier? I know about Cerberus in ME3. They were turned into the keystone cops. What they did in ME2 gave the galaxy a chance to destroy the reapers. If they didn't bring Shepard back, what would have happened? With the collectors? The reapers? There wouldn't be an SR2. Touche. Although I really don't know what bioware was doing with the asari hoarding the artifact for so long. I loved ME3 pre ending but the Asari aren't stupid. When the Reapers showed up they would have brought it up from the get go out of self preservation. Instead they wait for thessia to be attacked? Then again thane charged Kai leng when Thane had a gun.
Anyways it's ironic that cerberus decision to rebuild shepard and the SR2 managed to do so much good when every other thing they did seemed to help the reapers to some degree or another.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Nov 17, 2021 19:47:54 GMT
For "humanity" being the "central focus"(I'd say it was mostly just marketing talk after ME2) it's the most non-talked-about race in the ME universe. Like, what we know about the ME humans? almost nothing. Only that there is Cerberus. I sometime forget that Humanity is not just Cerberus and the most-vague-ever-military-organization-that-resemble-Americhuh-military-ever-because-the-rest-of-the-world-doesn't-exist-for-Americhu, the Alliance. Like, what about others factions on Earth? I can't believe China, or Russia, or EU (just to name a few) are ok with a very American-centered govern (at least apparently) being the face of the Human race. What about internal conflict? What about different ideology? what about nations that don't want to loose their indipendence under the Alliance? the game itself want to put on a pedestal the "variety" in Human thoughts and genetics, but have never actually given in game example of this variety. I can't believe Humanity is this big mess of differences, but not even an example is given to explain how actually is the situation on Earth, aside a very small, very vague paragraph in the the Codex. For being the "protagonist" in the game, Humanity is very much ignored by the ME writing. Actually the "alliance" is just the major human nations putting their resources together so they could explore safe. In one of the books they mention their is something like the alliance that was made up of the weaker nations on earth. I can't remember the name of it though. It was in the book about Cora.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 17, 2021 20:32:14 GMT
Even focusing on the newer entries into the franchise I feel humanity is still the Mary Sue of the setting. Just look at SAM and Ryder (Alec more than either of his children) in Andromeda: An elite special forces commando, part of a renowned military unit that is feared across the galaxy is also apparently a genius when it comes to AI creation. And despite said AI research being highly illegal; and public enough that a civilian enterprise like the Initiative can find out about it; not one single person bates an eye. This is the same setting where an entire species has been essentially exiled from galactic society for accidentally creating swarm AI (Quarians), but all Alec gets is a little finger wagging along with a wink and a nod that he should keep working on his SAM project. And then, again being a setting that (rightly) fears the dangers of AIs, this civilian organization; run by humans of course; is all totally on board with using these hereto untested AI programs to run their ships, even having them directly interface with Pathfinders' brains. No one bates an eye, not the Salarians, the Turians, and not even the Quarians (from the tie-in novel), all are completely convinced that these human developed artificial intelligences wont try and kill all of them during cryo-sleep when every single other attempt at anything involving AI has ended in disaster. And, of course, thanks to the superiority of human ingenuity apparently, the SAM programs work and don't try to kill anyone and end up saving the day. If this was any other species, if the creator of SAM had been a Salarian or Asari, you can be assured that everyone would be questioning every little detail about these AIs, and they certainly wouldn't have been allowed to be anywhere close to being entrusted with the populations' lives like they were in ME: Andromeda. But hey, if the youngest species to enter the galactic stage says it's okay; and that species is humanity; then it most definitely is okay.
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Post by Felya87 on Nov 17, 2021 20:33:50 GMT
For "humanity" being the "central focus"(I'd say it was mostly just marketing talk after ME2) it's the most non-talked-about race in the ME universe. Like, what we know about the ME humans? almost nothing. Only that there is Cerberus. I sometime forget that Humanity is not just Cerberus and the most-vague-ever-military-organization-that-resemble-Americhuh-military-ever-because-the-rest-of-the-world-doesn't-exist-for-Americhu, the Alliance. Like, what about others factions on Earth? I can't believe China, or Russia, or EU (just to name a few) are ok with a very American-centered govern (at least apparently) being the face of the Human race. What about internal conflict? What about different ideology? what about nations that don't want to loose their indipendence under the Alliance? the game itself want to put on a pedestal the "variety" in Human thoughts and genetics, but have never actually given in game example of this variety. I can't believe Humanity is this big mess of differences, but not even an example is given to explain how actually is the situation on Earth, aside a very small, very vague paragraph in the the Codex. For being the "protagonist" in the game, Humanity is very much ignored by the ME writing. Actually the "alliance" is just the major human nations putting their resources together so they could explore safe. In one of the books they mention their is something like the alliance that was made up of the weaker nations on earth. I can't remember the name of it though. It was in the book about Cora. ...So an extreme vague small line of dialogue in a side book, post trilogy? It's...like, nothing.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Nov 17, 2021 22:40:43 GMT
Actually the "alliance" is just the major human nations putting their resources together so they could explore safe. In one of the books they mention their is something like the alliance that was made up of the weaker nations on earth. I can't remember the name of it though. It was in the book about Cora. ...So an extreme vague small line of dialogue in a side book, post trilogy? It's...like, nothing. To be fair I doubt they could truly say that all the major nations in our world would ever work together on even half the scale that they did to make the "alliance". It was just an easy way of having humanity represented as humanity as a species instead of humanity fractured into several nations. I do agree that the ultra earth focus in ME3 came out of nowhere. Also it was pre ME3 that the book took place.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 17, 2021 22:42:44 GMT
Even focusing on the newer entries into the franchise I feel humanity is still the Mary Sue of the setting. Just look at SAM and Ryder (Alec more than either of his children) in Andromeda: An elite special forces commando, part of a renowned military unit that is feared across the galaxy is also apparently a genius when it comes to AI creation. And despite said AI research being highly illegal; and public enough that a civilian enterprise like the Initiative can find out about it; not one single person bates an eye. This is the same setting where an entire species has been essentially exiled from galactic society for accidentally creating swarm AI (Quarians), but all Alec gets is a little finger wagging along with a wink and a nod that he should keep working on his SAM project. And then, again being a setting that (rightly) fears the dangers of AIs, this civilian organization; run by humans of course; is all totally on board with using these hereto untested AI programs to run their ships, even having them directly interface with Pathfinders' brains. No one bates an eye, not the Salarians, the Turians, and not even the Quarians (from the tie-in novel), all are completely convinced that these human developed artificial intelligences wont try and kill all of them during cryo-sleep when every single other attempt at anything involving AI has ended in disaster. And, of course, thanks to the superiority of human ingenuity apparently, the SAM programs work and don't try to kill anyone and end up saving the day. If this was any other species, if the creator of SAM had been a Salarian or Asari, you can be assured that everyone would be questioning every little detail about these AIs, and they certainly wouldn't have been allowed to be anywhere close to being entrusted with the populations' lives like they were in ME: Andromeda. But hey, if the youngest species to enter the galactic stage says it's okay; and that species is humanity; then it most definitely is okay. Eh, Alec with SAM isn’t much of a stretch. In ME1 we learn Synthetic Insights is one of four groups allowed by the Council to develop AI. I always just figured maybe the Andromeda Initiative was another or at least went through the same process to get approval. Especially since before that he did experience rejection and blowback (family got blacklisted).
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 17, 2021 23:08:37 GMT
Even then, Shepard couldn't have done it without Anderson and Hackett; Shepard would never have gone to the SR2 or Mars without those two. While I agree with your post, I would say Cerberus did more than anything the Alliance did. They were the one's to bring back Shepard. They were the one's to give Shepard the SR2 and the resources to deal with the collectors. What would the Alliance have done if Cerberus didn't do anything? Without Cerberus, Shepard would never have been able to destroy the reapers. Humanity #1. True. Just another example of humanity being The Best.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 17, 2021 23:15:48 GMT
Eh, Alec with SAM isn’t much of a stretch. I disagree, He created something that is able to control an organics body to compensate for certain situations in combat. It has the power to kill and bring someone back. It was able to decipher the Jardaan stuff or at least some of it. Do you know anyone else in the galaxy that was able to do that? I bet Alec's friend Plot did most of the work. Imagine using sam to communicate with the geth? Could it be used to get peace between the geth and quarians without having the geth upload the code?
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 17, 2021 23:26:29 GMT
Eh, Alec with SAM isn’t much of a stretch. In ME1 we learn Synthetic Insights is one of four groups allowed by the Council to develop AI. I always just figured maybe the Andromeda Initiative was another or at least went through the same process to get approval. Especially since before that he did experience rejection and blowback (family got blacklisted). Which only reinforces the special treatment humans have in the setting at large. A galactic newcomer who's been a part of interstellar society that has existed for thousands of years for less than 30 is somehow the golden child of all the other species. Council member races like the Salarians or Turians are disbarred from experimenting in both AI and genetic modification research yet somehow this new kid gets the blessings of the galactic government. This is the same government who practically excommunicates the Quarians from society for accidentally creating swarm VI or open fire on uncontacted races for tampering with Mass Relays but suddenly humanity gets a pass for things that not even species thousands of years old are permitted to research. Races like the Elcor or Volus fail to be given their own separate ambassadorial space despite being part of said community for over 300 years but humanity is not only given that, as well as consideration for Spectre status, but we are also apparently given the go ahead with two of the most widely prohibited subjects of research and experimentation in the galaxy on a whim. And the worst that Alec, or humanity gets for flagrant disregard of galactic policy is blacklisted from alien organizations he and his family aren't even associated with. Some blowback there. Meanwhile, the Quarian flotilla is prevented from settling an unclaimed world under pain of death for their (accidental) creation of the Geth; who are the whole reason why AI restrictions were put in place.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 18, 2021 7:37:36 GMT
Eh, Alec with SAM isn’t much of a stretch. In ME1 we learn Synthetic Insights is one of four groups allowed by the Council to develop AI. I always just figured maybe the Andromeda Initiative was another or at least went through the same process to get approval. Especially since before that he did experience rejection and blowback (family got blacklisted). Which only reinforces the special treatment humans have in the setting at large. A galactic newcomer who's been a part of interstellar society that has existed for thousands of years for less than 30 is somehow the golden child of all the other species. Council member races like the Salarians or Turians are disbarred from experimenting in both AI and genetic modification research yet somehow this new kid gets the blessings of the galactic government. This is the same government who practically excommunicates the Quarians from society for accidentally creating swarm VI or open fire on uncontacted races for tampering with Mass Relays but suddenly humanity gets a pass for things that not even species thousands of years old are permitted to research. Races like the Elcor or Volus fail to be given their own separate ambassadorial space despite being part of said community for over 300 years but humanity is not only given that, as well as consideration for Spectre status, but we are also apparently given the go ahead with two of the most widely prohibited subjects of research and experimentation in the galaxy on a whim. And the worst that Alec, or humanity gets for flagrant disregard of galactic policy is blacklisted from alien organizations he and his family aren't even associated with. Some blowback there. Meanwhile, the Quarian flotilla is prevented from settling an unclaimed world under pain of death for their (accidental) creation of the Geth; who are the whole reason why AI restrictions were put in place. Synthetic Insights isn’t a human company. The two people from it we meet are a turian and an Asari. Also the blacklisting wasn’t just with alien groups. The Ryders were blacklisted in the Alliance too. I agree that humanity got way too much too fast, but these instances aren’t examples of that.
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Post by Hier0phant on Nov 18, 2021 11:23:55 GMT
Races like the Elcor or Volus fail to be given their own separate ambassadorial space despite being part of said community for over 300 years but humanity is not only given that, as well as consideration for Spectre status, but This one always stings. The volus created a unified currency system for the galaxy, but somehow that achievement wasn't enough to earn them their own embassy.
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