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Post by Warrick on Aug 23, 2021 10:24:58 GMT
We all love to rewrite the ending, but complete rewrites aren't practical. Here's what I think is the smallest possible change to fix the ending. Something that realistically the devs could have made instead of (or in addition to) the EC and Leviathan.
To me, the core problem is that you have to accept the options given by the villain to win. By picking any option given by him, you're implicitly validating it. This is why Destroy is just as bad as Control and Synthesis in a narrative sense. All 3 options are villain-given.
I've played two adventure games that end very similarly to ME3 (Unavowed and Primordia). You confront the big bad and they give you options. However, after you're given the options, you can perform and action that takes the villain by surprise. They go, "wait! what are you doing?!". They try to dissuade you. If you go through with it, you get an ending of your own.
I think Destroy could have been like that. So, you have the conversation with the Star Child and he proposes Control and Synthesis. The conversation ends. You're supposed to go grab the rods or jump. You approach either but you shoot at it instead. Then the Star Child freaks out and warns you that damaging the Crucible could be devastating. Then he explains Destroy.
The only change is the context for that explanation. It's not a villain-given option anymore; it came from you. Under this scenario, when he explains how Destroy is bad, you can dismiss it. You could say "we'll take our chances" (meaning "get fucked, Star Child"). Or you could say "let me reconsider" and pick Control or Synthesys. That's it!
This doesn't fix any of the practical problems: what happens to the fleets, the squadmates, and so on. I agree. But it fixes the narrative problem of Shepard's agency. The ending would not be bad in concept anymore, only in execution. Once you add the bits from the EC, it could have been pretty okay!
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Post by themikefest on Aug 23, 2021 12:12:44 GMT
Smallest change? Why not use the ending the player learns after the coup? I call it Hacketts ending. After Shepard passes out, and the arms to the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red wave destroying the reapers. It gets rid of dumb, dumb and all that other crap.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2021 14:05:32 GMT
In my opinion, there is no small way to "fix" this ending.
It already exists, we've all played it, some of us many times.
So, to actually fix it at this point means embracing everything that happened and refusing it properly.
Refuse should have been the winning option - I refuse to negotiate with this lying broken psychopathic authoritarian AI, I will blow up it's mainframe and be forever done with it.
But instead, we got a literal middle finger from the dev team. Classy.
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Post by lordmoral on Aug 23, 2021 14:25:17 GMT
I still think that one of the War Assets Shepard picks up should have been more influential in the story than just a numerical value (the following comes from the Mass Effect Wikia War Assets/Crucible section):
Interferometric Array (Requires: The scanning of the planet Eletania, Hercules, Attican Beta) "Normally interferometric arrays are used to analyze planetary landmasses, or to determine the astrophysical properties of stellar systems. The powerful array salvaged from the Hercules system can be used for something much more ambitious: the Crucible tunes into the mass relays' command switches. Installing the interferometric array into the Crucible's systems results in a real-time map of the entire galaxy, including the position of each and every Reaper in the Milky Way."
With that information on such just a random Asset the player and the Allied Fleets should have focused on diverting the energy against those signal and asides, we can get our hands of some Reaper Fragment code in either the Geth Collective or the Spectre Requisitions office now, the code is only used to deliver it to an Asari War analyst so she can predict Reaper Fleet movements. Those two things right then and there should have been warning enough for the Citadel occupants that the Reapers were in their way to take the station as Shepard was spending some quality time with his/her LI and while he was getting to The Illusive Man office.
Be aware that the description of the Interferometric Array doesn't list the Geth or EDI as part of the Reapers. As I acquired both that WA and the Reaper Code fragment I though to myself: "Well with the Catalyst the Reapers are bye bye so let's meet up TIM wait, WTH is happening? Why was all this a surprise, who is this blue kid?"
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Post by Tonymac on Aug 23, 2021 15:14:04 GMT
“I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”
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Post by Warrick on Aug 24, 2021 23:40:26 GMT
Smallest change? Why not use the ending the player learns after the coup? I call it Hacketts ending. After Shepard passes out, and the arms to the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red wave destroying the reapers. It gets rid of dumb, dumb and all that other crap. Okay but that's a way bigger change. I was thinking about the most realistically feasible change, i.e. the smallest possible, to make the ending passable. In my opinion, there is no small way to "fix" this ending. It already exists, we've all played it, some of us many times. So, to actually fix it at this point means embracing everything that happened and refusing it properly. Refuse should have been the winning option - I refuse to negotiate with this lying broken psychopathic authoritarian AI, I will blow up it's mainframe and be forever done with it. But instead, we got a literal middle finger from the dev team. Classy. While I agree about the middle finger bit, I don't mind having a refuse option that results in failure. Both adventures I mentioned in my post have that. But they also have a refusal win option. I'm wondering what you think about the ending idea I described above?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 24, 2021 23:52:51 GMT
We all love to rewrite the ending, but complete rewrites aren't practical. Here's what I think is the smallest possible change to fix the ending. After you pass out, next to Andersson and the fade to black, you are back on the Normandy's bridge. Samantha tells you all the Reapers are dead, after the crucible fired and everyone went home to celebrate. The crew was waiting on you to wake up. Done.
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 25, 2021 3:39:23 GMT
Okay but that's a way bigger change. I was thinking about the most realistically feasible change, i.e. the smallest possible, to make the ending passable. Your ending requires writing new dialogue to accommodate the change. themikefest 's ending just requires deleting things, with nothing new being created. In terms of the work required, his change is quite a bit smaller than yours. I see your point about not wanting to choose an ending that the villains provided to you, but to me that ending already exists in destroy. That's literally what Shepard set out to do, whether Starkid wants to complain about it or not. The only dumb thing about destroy is that the red beam is somehow the only one that can't tell the difference between a geth and a reaper. And I'm happy to just ignore that inconsistency until a mod comes out for MELE to make it make sense again.
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Post by Spectr61 on Aug 26, 2021 18:25:47 GMT
Easy.
Pick Refuse.
Do not play his silly little dumb, dumber, and dumberist game.
(Looks at Hudson and Walters and spits in their eyes.)
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Post by Psychevore on Aug 26, 2021 20:37:14 GMT
Okay but that's a way bigger change. I was thinking about the most realistically feasible change, i.e. the smallest possible, to make the ending passable. Your ending requires writing new dialogue to accommodate the change. themikefest 's ending just requires deleting things, with nothing new being created. In terms of the work required, his change is quite a bit smaller than yours. I see your point about not wanting to choose an ending that the villains provided to you, but to me that ending already exists in destroy. That's literally what Shepard set out to do, whether Starkid wants to complain about it or not. The only dumb thing about destroy is that the red beam is somehow the only one that can't tell the difference between a geth and a reaper. And I'm happy to just ignore that inconsistency until a mod comes out for MELE to make it make sense again. How would a beam of energy tell the difference between anything at all? It's not conscious or something.
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Post by Psychevore on Aug 26, 2021 20:46:13 GMT
The only proper ending to this trilogy would've been a crushing defeat at the hands of the Reaper. Cause you know, the galaxy didn't do fuck all to prepare for the Reapers.
I see no merit in removing the Catalyst. This just leaves us with more questions than answers.
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 26, 2021 20:54:02 GMT
Your ending requires writing new dialogue to accommodate the change. themikefest 's ending just requires deleting things, with nothing new being created. In terms of the work required, his change is quite a bit smaller than yours. I see your point about not wanting to choose an ending that the villains provided to you, but to me that ending already exists in destroy. That's literally what Shepard set out to do, whether Starkid wants to complain about it or not. The only dumb thing about destroy is that the red beam is somehow the only one that can't tell the difference between a geth and a reaper. And I'm happy to just ignore that inconsistency until a mod comes out for MELE to make it make sense again. How would a beam of energy tell the difference between anything at all? It's not conscious or something. Space magic like everything else? Calibration of the crucible's beam generator? How the hell should I know? It has been said in ending discussions that the control beam would result in reapers only -- not all synthetics -- being controlled, but the destroy beam would result in the destruction of all synthetics. So the control beam can differentiate, but the red beam can't. Inconsistent space magic is the worst kind.
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Post by Psychevore on Aug 26, 2021 20:55:44 GMT
How would a beam of energy tell the difference between anything at all? It's not conscious or something. Space magic like everything else? Calibration of the crucible's beam generator? How the hell should I know? It has been said in ending discussions that the control beam would result in reapers only -- not all synthetics -- being controlled, but the destroy beam would result in the destruction of all synthetics. So the control beam can differentiate, but the red beam can't. Inconsistent space magic is the worst kind. In control you (Shepard) become the Catalyst though. That there's a beam at all is kinda silly, I think.
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 26, 2021 22:01:29 GMT
Space magic like everything else? Calibration of the crucible's beam generator? How the hell should I know? It has been said in ending discussions that the control beam would result in reapers only -- not all synthetics -- being controlled, but the destroy beam would result in the destruction of all synthetics. So the control beam can differentiate, but the red beam can't. Inconsistent space magic is the worst kind. In control you (Shepard) become the Catalyst though. That there's a beam at all is kinda silly, I think.
I agree that it's all silly. But I think the inconsistency just boils down to Bioware wanting to give people a reason to not pick destroy, so they make destroy kill our robot friends. I reject Bioware's reality and substitute my own
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Aug 30, 2021 1:20:44 GMT
I always assumed the Destroy beamed only targeted Reaper code, hence why the Mass Relays, EDI and the Geth are destroyed.
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Post by AnDromedary on Aug 31, 2021 15:34:40 GMT
Smallest possible change to fix the ending? You mean REALLY fix it?
Scrap everything from the beginning of ME2 forward and start fresh from there.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 31, 2021 19:24:02 GMT
I literally just had a huge discussion on this topic on r/masseffect. I'm not convinced a "villain choice" is total annihilation of the Reapers. It suggests that the Catalyst added onto the true purpose of the Crucible (destroy) with attempts at survival (Control and, especially, Synthesis). Refusal means nothing to the Catalyst. The cycle is harvested and they move on. Total fail. Setting that aside, themikefest has it down. Cut out everything between the Anderson conversation and the Citadel arms opening, firing the beam. Not choices needed, no extra dialogue, nothing at all. Which is more or less JAM.
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Post by lordmoral on Aug 31, 2021 20:04:55 GMT
Smallest possible change to fix the ending? You mean REALLY fix it?
Scrap everything from the beginning of ME2 forward and start fresh from there. ME2 really carries part of the blame, it: relegated A/K to a cameo apperance only to have the players deal with the rushed conflict in ME3, remebered in Arrival DLC that they Reapers existed, forgot to expand on options (Batarians could have been contacted by Shepard as he explained them the truth and you would need high Paragon/Renegade scores to secure an Alliance and deal with the problems between the humans and Batarians (small scale only to see it grow or be destroyed in ME3)), Anderson reacts indiferent when we destroy/spare the Collectors Base.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 4, 2021 10:03:48 GMT
Remove the Beam, and just use the fucking Conduit that they tried really hard to make us forget about...
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Post by lordmoral on Sept 4, 2021 10:48:26 GMT
Remove the Beam, and just use the fucking Conduit that they tried really hard to make us forget about... Not only that, but incorporate the Keeper Quest from way back in ME1 having a more significant impact. Combine these three things: the Keepers, the Conduit and Vendetta to have the best ending possible.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 4, 2021 11:22:44 GMT
Remove the Beam, and just use the fucking Conduit that they tried really hard to make us forget about... Here's something I've said about that a few times about that. What if the beam is shut off as Shepard is running to the beam? What would they do? Or what if the Citadel remained where it was instead of being moved to Earth? A suggestion is made to use the conduit on Ilos. Shepard gathers her squadmates, current and the ones from ME2 to join her/him. Once they get to Ilos, they encounter Cerberus who are guarding the conduit. They somehow managed to get it to work. After dealing with the keystone cops, they use the conduit. Once on the Citadel, they immediately see Cerberus, the uglies fighting with C-Sec in the middle. This is where the player sees those Citadel war assets in action. Bailey confronts Shepard who mentions he saw some guy in a fancy suit head in that direction. Shepard takes two squadmates leaving the rest behind to deal with the keystone cops and the uglies. Once Shepard catches up with TIM, the rest plays out similar to what is currently seen in ME3. Do want to know why the above can't happen? Anderson. He is needed to have the touchy-feely scene that is seen in ME3. That is the reason why the suicide run, I mean beam run, was crap. Bioware wanted to have that touchy-feely scene for the feels no matter how much getting to that point didn't make sense.
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Post by lordmoral on Sept 4, 2021 11:52:49 GMT
Remove the Beam, and just use the fucking Conduit that they tried really hard to make us forget about... Here's something I've said about that a few times about that. What if the beam is shut off as Shepard is running to the beam? What would they do? Or what if the Citadel remained where it was instead of being moved to Earth? A suggestion is made to use the conduit on Ilos. Shepard gathers her squadmates, current and the ones from ME2 to join her/him. Once they get to Ilos, they encounter Cerberus who are guarding the conduit. They somehow managed to get it to work. After dealing with the keystone cops, they use the conduit. Once on the Citadel, they immediately see Cerberus, the uglies fighting with C-Sec in the middle. This is where the player sees those Citadel war assets in action. Bailey confronts Shepard who mentions he saw some guy in a fancy suit head in that direction. Shepard takes two squadmates leaving the rest behind to deal with the keystone cops and the uglies. Once Shepard catches up with TIM, the rest plays out similar to what is currently seen in ME3. Do want to know why the above can't happen? Anderson. He is needed to have the touchy-feely scene that is seen in ME3. That is the reason why the suicide run, I mean beam run, was crap. Bioware wanted to have that touchy-feely scene for the feels no matter how much getting to that point didn't make sense. Pretty much the Anderson scene could have happened as we finished the business and went back to Earth only to find him severly injured. As Shepard took his team to Illos Hackett lead the Fleets to Earth and not all of Shepard crew went with him: Garrus gets to lead the assault to destroy the Hadex Cannons and we end up meeting him at Earth with Vega and Tali with a few ME2 characters launching a two prong attack to pin the Reapers on Earth. We find limited resistance on Illos as the Cerberus members are the ones who served under Shepard, if they survived, while hunting the Collectors. Depending on how are their indoctrination levels, if at all, Shepard can convince them to assist him or leave them tied up inside a bunker. The assault proceeds as you described only that we also run into Anderson as he launched the Beam Run himself and the characters you sent to assist hik only survive with a high War Asset count but wounded. TIM issue is resolved and then with the following: Vendetta intel, Keeper data and dialog we deal with the Reaper.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 5, 2021 9:23:25 GMT
Remove the Beam, and just use the fucking Conduit that they tried really hard to make us forget about... Here's something I've said about that a few times about that. What if the beam is shut off as Shepard is running to the beam? What would they do? Or what if the Citadel remained where it was instead of being moved to Earth? A suggestion is made to use the conduit on Ilos. Shepard gathers her squadmates, current and the ones from ME2 to join her/him. Once they get to Ilos, they encounter Cerberus who are guarding the conduit. They somehow managed to get it to work. After dealing with the keystone cops, they use the conduit. Once on the Citadel, they immediately see Cerberus, the uglies fighting with C-Sec in the middle. This is where the player sees those Citadel war assets in action. Bailey confronts Shepard who mentions he saw some guy in a fancy suit head in that direction. Shepard takes two squadmates leaving the rest behind to deal with the keystone cops and the uglies. Once Shepard catches up with TIM, the rest plays out similar to what is currently seen in ME3. Do want to know why the above can't happen? Anderson. He is needed to have the touchy-feely scene that is seen in ME3. That is the reason why the suicide run, I mean beam run, was crap. Bioware wanted to have that touchy-feely scene for the feels no matter how much getting to that point didn't make sense. While you are likely correct. That just means their imagination sucks. Because that touchy goodbye scene could simply happen somewhere else, under different circumstances.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 5, 2021 22:53:51 GMT
Remove the Beam, and just use the fucking Conduit that they tried really hard to make us forget about... I thought it became non-functional, though I can't say why I think that way. Even so, the Conduit is on Ilos. It's also one-way.
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Post by lordmoral on Sept 5, 2021 23:12:27 GMT
Remove the Beam, and just use the fucking Conduit that they tried really hard to make us forget about... I thought it became non-functional, though I can't say why I think that way. Even so, the Conduit is on Ilos. It's also one-way. I wouldn't put it beyond the 4 Council races to have it repaired and move one half to the vault after replacing the one in the Presidium with a fake one h---, TIM might have bypassed the security even more easily had he started in a place not in the open and with access to the Keeper tunnels.
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