Gileadan
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Agent 46
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 31, 2021 4:49:57 GMT
Pretty much all BioWare protagonists are at least about 98% humans, I just like the original paint job best, so I'd really like to go with human commoner. I'm not too thrilled about a slave origin unless I can get some kind of "Cooler King" Hilts type of personality though.
And I hope they keep their "you're on your own / the people in power and in charge are not helping you" concept. I don't want a big following or organization again, just me and my gang please. I like to focus on a small, tight circle of friends.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 31, 2021 7:41:23 GMT
Lol, don't know where people get this idea that BioWare is somehow subservient to the "safe space brigade". Previous BioWare games have bent over backwards to make arguments that attempt to excuse and justify slavery and genocidal actions against clearly oppressed in-game peoples. DA2 let you sell companions into slavery and even own a slave yourself. You have a point but DA2 came out 10 years ago and even in that comparatively short time attitudes have changed about what is perceived as acceptable in products for entertainment. Also, many of the people involved with those early entries in the universe, including the lead writer, have now left so the way things are depicted is going to be entirely at the discretion of those on the current writing team. What is noticeable from Tevinter Nights is that there is now an anti-slavery faction in Tevinter when there has never been any suggestion of this in the past. (Why would Dorian have considered slavery in the way he did and never thought to question it if there was an anti-slavery faction promoting the southern viewpoint in Tevinter?) Yet apparently some members of the Venatori only joined that organisation because they thought it was anti-slavery. I know Calpernia had a personal ideal of this sort and did free a number of slaves to be on her team but I find it hard to imagine Venatori like Erimond buying into her aims or anyone who was trying to restore the glory of Ancient Tevinter. This seems borne out by the fact that with Calpernia out of the way, the leaders of the Venatori have now no qualms about abusing the slaves in their ownership and those few who allegedly did think slave freedom was part of the agenda, have now left the organisation. So it does appear the writers are now framing the situation as the bad guys favour slavery and the good guys don't, bearing in mind Dorian has now freed all his slaves, having been persuaded of the error of the attitude he expressed to the Inquisitor. At the very least I think they are going to play down the fact that certain people, like Maevaris, still think Dorian's action was rather quaint. So I think it is highly unlikely that will be creating a human noble protagonist who starts the game as a keeper of slaves, unless they use that to introduce the idea of them experiencing a dramatic fall from grace at the very beginning, so they are stripped of their citizenship and end up in the slave market. That would fulfill the requirement for them to start the game with no power and be able to show the power structure within Tevinter at the same time. In fact, if they were going to allow different races, they could all start off within the same introductory story but as different roles within the household. For example, they could be a Tal'Vashoth bodyguard, an elven slave or a dwarven overseer. All would end up in the slave market along with their master. Then either the city is attacked by the Qunari with the PC escaping in the ensuing chaos, or (if we start off in Minrathous) the PC is "purchased" by an interested party, who promises to liberate them but for a price.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 31, 2021 10:18:21 GMT
I would love to play a Tevinter Noble character since Tevinter's nobility is quite different from others nations. For me human commoner isn't all that interesting since we already have City Elves and Brands which is basically the same thing. Also the problem with commoners is that they probably wouldn't know how to read or write.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 31, 2021 11:22:51 GMT
Also the problem with commoners is that they probably wouldn't know how to read or write. That wasn't a problem with the city elf and casteless dwarf origins in DAO, BioWare is never going to have a protagonist who can't read, and they're not going to go out of their way to explain the protag having literacy skills either, players will just have to accept it.
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Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
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Post by mousestalker on Aug 31, 2021 11:46:17 GMT
Four origins? Dalish slave Tal Vashoth spy Noble Human slave owner Dwarven merchantOnly if he or she has a thin moustache that curls up at the ends. Oh, and a top hat and a whip.
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Post by phoray on Aug 31, 2021 12:09:02 GMT
At the very least I think they are going to play down the fact that certain people, like Maevaris, still think Dorian's action was rather quaint. Was this in the comics? I don't remember her having that attitude regarding slave freeing, one way or the other.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 31, 2021 13:35:29 GMT
Was this in the comics? I don't remember her having that attitude regarding slave freeing, one way or the other. In the comic series in which she featured, when challenged over slavery, she says: "Everyone keeps slaves, darling." Effectively, the same attitude as Dorian in DAI. You don't question it because it is normal. In Tevinter Nights, when they are with other Magisters at Dorian's card party, Maevaris makes the comment that Dorian brought some novel ideas back with him from down south. I can't check the actual quote at present but I'm pretty sure it was connected with the fact that Dorian had freed his slaves on his return and Maevaris was teasing him about it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 31, 2021 13:49:01 GMT
Also the problem with commoners is that they probably wouldn't know how to read or write. It doesn't necessarily follow that the commoners are illiterate. Many professions require a degree of literacy. Illiteracy is more likely to be common among rural villagers but it is possible that there is at least a basic education if it helps them serve the state better. Alexius was arguing for better schooling and places of higher learning for the Soporati, which does suggest that citizens can access some form of schooling if he wanted it to be better and there is no point in universities for Soporati if they are not getting a grounding in education at the lower levels. Even slaves may be taught to read and write if it means they can be more useful to their master. The elf interviewed at the end of the Long Walk says as much in -140 Ancient: " I used to have a master, a mage. He.....even taught me how to read so I could do his accounts." If he was doing his master's accounts then it would seem he was numerate as well. What was true then is likely still the case today.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 31, 2021 14:01:02 GMT
I just want to interject and say that the word "Slave" does not correspond or represent the values of the BSN. So we will be changing it to Firespray.
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Post by fylimar on Aug 31, 2021 14:06:25 GMT
I voted for commoner, but would be ok with a slave too. Anything but a boring human noble origin again. There was a human commoner orign mod for DAO and it really did a great job and showed, that you don't always have to be of high birth to change the world.
ANd what panda was talking about: It would be nice, to finally have some consequences for doing something evil. I agree, that you can get away with too much in the games.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 31, 2021 17:42:14 GMT
And what panda was talking about: It would be nice, to finally have some consequences for doing something evil. I agree, that you can get away with too much in the games. I, on the other hand, would like to see more consequences for making "stupid" but subjectively "good" choices. All in all, I hope for more realistic consequences and no "best choice" scenarios.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 31, 2021 21:56:38 GMT
And what panda was talking about: It would be nice, to finally have some consequences for doing something evil. I agree, that you can get away with too much in the games. I, on the other hand, would like to see more consequences for making "stupid" but subjectively "good" choices. All in all, I hope for more realistic consequences and no "best choice" scenarios. I would as well, but there would ideally be some kind of balance to it. As an example, in Pillars of Eternity, you have an option to sacrifice an abandoned child to some kind of hellspawn machine in exchange for a boost to one of your stats. (It has been years since I played, so those details are probably not completely accurate, but you can definitely kill/cause the death of a helpless person in exchange for a stat boost) There are zero consequences for doing it and the most pushback you receive is a couple of your companions reacting with their version of "uh, well...that's definitely a choice". So that is the 'smart' decision gameplay wise, right. But it is objectively bad. Companions should've left you, or tried to kill you, not gone "....dude, please". But I think that, for the most part, the fantasy in fantasy gaming should be limited to the physical laws of nature of the setting and not the moral centre of the entire population of the world.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 1, 2021 0:51:13 GMT
Despite what the "SJWs taking our games" crowd seems to be harping, I occurs to me that Bioware became worse with consequences? DAO has some pretty mean things, but at least someone would end up not liking you for it. Taking the City elf OS, which some think might not fly today, well, if we take the bribe, we only get access to the money very late and the City elves aren't amused. If stab Vaughn's rapist mug, there's not days of harping about status quo uwu or "if you would just have let yourself raped..." (For female Tabris anyway. FemTabris was my first OS I ever played, so there's some impression). Going for the usual once-per-game Dalish massacre needs more work than the other two solutions and has a sort of gameplay consequence in that no unlimited elfroot is available anymore for the poultice-suckers. Also, furry fury is yet another melee-focused army, something that the Dwarves and Redcliffers cn also do. Oh, and the Circle isn't binary either-or. Want to save what you can and are too slow? Whoops, Uldred just turned everyone and you get templars. And what panda was talking about: It would be nice, to finally have some consequences for doing something evil. I agree, that you can get away with too much in the games. I, on the other hand, would like to see more consequences for making "stupid" but subjectively "good" choices. All in all, I hope for more realistic consequences and no "best choice" scenarios. I mean, everybody wants their choices validated I suppose. Problem is, when (at which point in the plot) and how do writers decide on what choice is supposedly "stupid".
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Posts: 2,919 Likes: 7,495
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 1, 2021 6:10:18 GMT
I just want to interject and say that the word "Slave" does not correspond or represent the values of the BSN. So we will be changing it to Firespray. Meanwhile, the "master branch" in GitHub (code repository) was renamed to "main branch". Our team lead went "wtf" and manually changed everything back to "master branch".
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 1, 2021 6:20:09 GMT
To be clear, I'm not talking about "people not liking you" or any weaksauce shit like that when I say "consequences of bigotry", I mean that, if it's been narratively established that annulling a circle means killing innocent children and other people with no martial skill who can only flee or beg desperately for their lives, then players who choose to annul a circle should be confronted with that fact, instead of having the child npcs spontaneously freaking disappear.
Whether or not your companions hate you afterwards or go "good job on all that child killing, child killer!" is of no consequence to me. BioWare wants to write around themes of bigotry, so probably some characters will be bigots or support bigoted decisions.
What I am saying is that if BioWare wants to tackle this kind of subject matter, they should do it fucking properly, and get their hands dirty and force players who make those choices to get their hands dirty too, instead of what they've been doing up until now (yes, even in DAO, teh grimdarkiest most adulting and mashuuur gaem of all tiem!), which is heavily glossing over the actual horror and suffering the players opt to inflict.
And if they are unable or unwilling to do the job properly, then they should drop those themes entirely, and focus on the write-by-numbers adventure stories they're supposed to be so good at.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 1, 2021 7:50:46 GMT
I, on the other hand, would like to see more consequences for making "stupid" but subjectively "good" choices. All in all, I hope for more realistic consequences and no "best choice" scenarios. I mean, everybody wants their choices validated I suppose. Problem is, when (at which point in the plot) and how do writers decide on what choice is supposedly "stupid". The most obvious one is the decision over Connor, particularly if you have not yet been to the Circle Tower. Now the demon controlling him has been nightly releasing undead on the village until you show up. If you leave without dealing with the problem the village is destroyed (except Teagan), so that is a bad consequence for a bad decision. However, you can go up, discover what has happened to Connor and have 3 choices: sacrifice his mother in the hope that the novice mage who has already stuffed up big time in Connor's training, plus poisoned Eamon, can somehow deal with the demon in the Fade; kill Connor, so problem fixed; (both considered bad choices but killing Connor is the common sense option) or head off to the Circle Tower to get their help in the hope that having Teagan to play with will somehow keep the demon from doing anything bad until your return (the good choice but incredibly stupid because demons are so accommodating like that and chances are it will return to its former mode of enjoyment). If you opt for the latter, you arrive at the Circle Tower to find it is overrun by demons, so it takes you even longer before you can return to Redcliffe to deal with Connor's demon, yet surprise, surprise, the demon has done nothing untoward in the time you have been gone. Whilst no timescale is ever given, I think we can reasonably assume it was longer than 24 hours. The consequences of the bad but common sense choice aren't that serious; Alistair throws a hissy fit and you lose points on the approval scale and may be some disapproval from other companions, but that is about it. However, the consequences for taking the good but stupid choice are zero (or may be some disapproval from certain companions if they are actually with you at the time). Another one: the decision about the Grey Wardens in DAI. With that, the common sense choice is to banish them (temporarily) for their own safety as much as anything else. Just because we have cut off the support of the Nightmare Demon, doesn't actually mean Corypheus can no longer control Grey Wardens, he just does it over a shorter range. The wording to the choice actually confirms as much. So the stupid but good choice is to bring them into the Inquisition. Taking this choice means you get a whole string of War Table missions connected with them and a good outcome for the Grey Wardens in the epilogue but they never betray you. By contrast, if we take the common sense option, we get no extra War Table missions and the outcome for the Grey Wardens in the epilogue has them being shunned throughout Thedas, even though I specifically told Leliana not to bad mouth them to others and the banishment was only intended to apply to Orlais whilst Corypheus was still a threat. We meet the same Grey Wardens in the Arbor Wilds whichever choice we make so it has no bearing in that. The outcome for the Grey Wardens choice particularly irritated me because they flagged up apparent negative consequences of keeping them with the Inquisition and then didn't follow through with it. This is why I wonder if your choice to maintain or disband the Inquisition is going to have any impact whatsoever next game but what is the betting that, if it does, there will be greater benefits for keeping it going, even though it could still be riddled with Solas' agents, rather than disbanding it even though that means you should be able to rely on the people you have left. Unless the negative consequence of keeping the Inquisition has already played out in Tevinter Nights; after all how did Solas know about Charter's supposedly secret meeting?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 1, 2021 8:50:11 GMT
This is why I wonder if your choice to maintain or disband the Inquisition is going to have any impact whatsoever next game but what is the betting that, if it does, there will be greater benefits for keeping it going, even though it could still be riddled with Solas' agents, rather than disbanding it even though that means you should be able to rely on the people you have left. Unless the negative consequence of keeping the Inquisition has already played out in Tevinter Nights; after all how did Solas know about Charter's supposedly secret meeting? Keep it: Solas is aware of their plans and sabotages them causing them to fail. Disband it: Don’t have enough support to complete their plans causing them to fail. “Choices” That choice, as well as Save vs Stop, we’re probably relics from when/if they considered DAI only part 1 of the story and planned for DA4 to be part 2, before they decided to throw it all away to follow a stupid rule they set for themselves.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 1, 2021 9:42:05 GMT
To be clear, I'm not talking about "people not liking you" or any weaksauce shit like that when I say "consequences of bigotry", I mean that, if it's been narratively established that annulling a circle means killing innocent children and other people with no martial skill who can only flee or beg desperately for their lives, then players who choose to annul a circle should be confronted with that fact, instead of having the child npcs spontaneously freaking disappear. Whether or not your companions hate you afterwards or go "good job on all that child killing, child killer!" is of no consequence to me. BioWare wants to write around themes of bigotry, so probably some characters will be bigots or support bigoted decisions. What I am saying is that if BioWare wants to tackle this kind of subject matter, they should do it fucking properly, and get their hands dirty and force players who make those choices to get their hands dirty too, instead of what they've been doing up until now (yes, even in DAO, teh grimdarkiest most adulting and mashuuur gaem of all tiem!), which is heavily glossing over the actual horror and suffering the players opt to inflict. And if they are unable or unwilling to do the job properly, then they should drop those themes entirely, and focus on the write-by-numbers adventure stories they're supposed to be so good at. I agree, it would be fun to get the whole "Anakin Skywalker and the younglings" experience, but unfortunately video games can't really let you kill children because it would affect sales negatively and that's what ultimately matters the most to companies like this.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 1, 2021 10:35:47 GMT
unfortunately video games can't really let you kill children Well, as I point out above, you can kill Connor and he is a child but I agree group slaughter of children is avoided. It was the same with the Gallows in DA2 as it was with the Circle Tower in DAO. Bethany specifically mentions she works with the children there, yet we never see any during the final act. Conversely, of course, we never see any children within the walls of the Chantry, hence people being able to argue that Anders' bomb didn't kill any children. By the time we got to DAI, children had simply disappeared from the universe, although we are led to assume they must be there because of Blackwall making his toy for them and Fiona saying her group included children but they are always conveniently off screen.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 1, 2021 11:45:19 GMT
unfortunately video games can't really let you kill children Well, as I point out above, you can kill Connor and he is a child but I agree group slaughter of children is avoided. It was the same with the Gallows in DA2 as it was with the Circle Tower in DAO. Bethany specifically mentions she works with the children there, yet we never see any during the final act. Conversely, of course, we never see any children within the walls of the Chantry, hence people being able to argue that Anders' bomb didn't kill any children. By the time we got to DAI, children had simply disappeared from the universe, although we are led to assume they must be there because of Blackwall making his toy for them and Fiona saying her group included children but they are always conveniently off screen. That's true and there's also Amelia. They both turn into desire demons if you choose to fight them though (and I don't remember if Connor's death happens off-screen or on-screen).
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Sept 1, 2021 12:02:26 GMT
Love how a discussion on Noble vs Commoner Origins for the next Dragon Age game became a debate on the nature of evil and the value of choice, and our ability to kill children? As for me personally, I only approve of 'evil' actions when it is pragmatic and the long-term benefits outweigh the short-term costs that performing such an action will undertake. However, if an equally viable 'good' option exists that also results in a net positive also exists I will happily take it if is sensible and is beneficial.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 1, 2021 13:07:56 GMT
To be clear, I'm not talking about "people not liking you" or any weaksauce shit like that when I say "consequences of bigotry", I mean that, if it's been narratively established that annulling a circle means killing innocent children and other people with no martial skill who can only flee or beg desperately for their lives, then players who choose to annul a circle should be confronted with that fact, instead of having the child npcs spontaneously freaking disappear. Whether or not your companions hate you afterwards or go "good job on all that child killing, child killer!" is of no consequence to me. BioWare wants to write around themes of bigotry, so probably some characters will be bigots or support bigoted decisions. What I am saying is that if BioWare wants to tackle this kind of subject matter, they should do it fucking properly, and get their hands dirty and force players who make those choices to get their hands dirty too, instead of what they've been doing up until now (yes, even in DAO, teh grimdarkiest most adulting and mashuuur gaem of all tiem!), which is heavily glossing over the actual horror and suffering the players opt to inflict. And if they are unable or unwilling to do the job properly, then they should drop those themes entirely, and focus on the write-by-numbers adventure stories they're supposed to be so good at. I agree, it would be fun to get the whole "Anakin Skywalker and the younglings" experience, but unfortunately video games can't really let you kill children because it would affect sales negatively and that's what ultimately matters the most to companies like this. Fun isn't really my primary concern, so much as being intellectually honest about what certain choices entail. BioWare could still have forced players who opt to annul circles or slaughter elf clans to kill unarmed people who pose no threat to the PC and only cower and beg for their lives. I think the main reason they gloss over what those choices actually mean is because a significant portion of their audience wants to be able to make those choices without being made to feel "bad" or "wrong" for doing it. I think this is also the real reason they make narrative choices like, for example, Orsino turning on the player and becoming a harvester and giving him an extremely vague, tenuous connection to Quentin the mommy-killer. Because otherwise, it's impossible to justify annuling the mages with even a pretence of rationality, and the people who make that choice would whine about BioWare's "sjw bias" even more than they already do. I've always suspected it was less about "needing another boss fight" and more about "we need to throw mage-haters a bone because their position barely makes any sense as it is".
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Posts: 2,919 Likes: 7,495
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August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 1, 2021 14:17:46 GMT
DA2's final choice is piss poor garbage, forcing you to completely accept one side without question and totally exterminate the other. If I were a very cynical person I'd state that it caters to extremists no matter which side you pick, but the truth is probably that DA2's gameplay loop was so stripped down that this was all they could do. Where DAO had the Landsmeet, DA2 had that final slaughterfest, true to their simplified "go there, kill the things, optionally pick up the thing or talk to the person" quest gameplay. Just talking sense into people without having to kill anyone really went out of style, sadly.
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Cyberstrike
N4
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
Prime Posts: 1,732
Prime Likes: 467
Posts: 1,942 Likes: 3,181
inherit
634
0
May 14, 2017 17:50:43 GMT
3,181
Cyberstrike
is wanting to have some fun!
1,942
August 2016
cyberstrike
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
cyberstrike nTo
cyberstrike-nTo
1,732
467
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 1, 2021 15:24:46 GMT
A commoner so I can kill evil super rich slave owning bastards.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 623 Likes: 824
inherit
9275
0
Dec 12, 2024 14:59:43 GMT
824
theascendent
623
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Sept 1, 2021 17:11:33 GMT
I wonder if you can choose our nationality in addition to our social class. We were from Ferelden (mostly) in Origins, from Ferelden to the Free Marches in 2 and from the Marches to Ferelden/Orlais. So would we be from Orlais or Ferelden going to Tevinter instead of being a native?
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