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Post by Zemgus on Sept 1, 2021 19:19:11 GMT
I agree, it would be fun to get the whole "Anakin Skywalker and the younglings" experience, but unfortunately video games can't really let you kill children because it would affect sales negatively and that's what ultimately matters the most to companies like this. Fun isn't really my primary concern, so much as being intellectually honest about what certain choices entail. BioWare could still have forced players who opt to annul circles or slaughter elf clans to kill unarmed people who pose no threat to the PC and only cower and beg for their lives. I think the main reason they gloss over what those choices actually mean is because a significant portion of their audience wants to be able to make those choices without being made to feel "bad" or "wrong" for doing it. I think this is also the real reason they make narrative choices like, for example, Orsino turning on the player and becoming a harvester and giving him an extremely vague, tenuous connection to Quentin the mommy-killer. Because otherwise, it's impossible to justify annuling the mages with even a pretense of rationality, and the people who make that choice would whine about BioWare's "sjw bias" even more than they already do. I've always suspected it was less about "needing another boss fight" and more about "we need to throw mage-haters a bone because their position barely makes any sense as it is". Bioware forcing the player character to kill unarmed people (in cutscenes or gameplay) would go against the nature of roleplay. If it was optional to do so I would certainly appreciate such a choice to be available to me because like you said it would be realistic. So far in the games we've had two chances to annul the Circle and in both cases we have only killed people who can fight back instead of the innocents. I guess having such choices available would mean that Dragon Age would have to lean more towards its Dark Fantasy roots - and considering the Mature rating these games have it should not be out of question. SWTOR for example has many opportunities to kill innocent people (and in general has the best "evil" choices of any Bioware games) and also has Mature rating. I have little faith in DA4 going to that direction unfortunately but one can always hope!
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 1, 2021 19:27:28 GMT
So would we be from Orlais or Ferelden going to Tevinter instead of being a native? I think if they go with the slave background then it would make sense but otherwise it is hard to see why anyone from there would want to voluntarily enter a war zone. If you had been captured as a child then it would explain the lack of an accent or extensive knowledge of your country of origin. Mind you, that could apply to any country of origin. Otherwise, the only real reason to be in Tevinter would be to have been sent there by an organisation in the south, for example the Inquisition, or because you are a member of an organisation based in the north, like the Lords of Fortune or the Grey Wardens for that matter, but had your origins in the south. However, I keep saying this. There is no reason why we have to come from the area we were in the previous game. It was only ever a fan theory that this was some sort of rule by the writers. Considering that we are now going to an area that is largely independent in culture from the whole of southern Thedas, it makes sense that they would use this as an opportunity for a clean break with the past. I also hope this is the case because I would like to play someone from a completely different culture rather than be an interlope.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Sept 1, 2021 20:23:07 GMT
I hope so. British accents are far more reasonable than the outrageous accents of the Orlesians! Although I imagine that Dorian's Kings English is more common for the upper class, while we have more modern English for the lower classes. Here is hoping for a northerner protagonist.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 2:45:37 GMT
Fun isn't really my primary concern, so much as being intellectually honest about what certain choices entail. BioWare could still have forced players who opt to annul circles or slaughter elf clans to kill unarmed people who pose no threat to the PC and only cower and beg for their lives. I think the main reason they gloss over what those choices actually mean is because a significant portion of their audience wants to be able to make those choices without being made to feel "bad" or "wrong" for doing it. I think this is also the real reason they make narrative choices like, for example, Orsino turning on the player and becoming a harvester and giving him an extremely vague, tenuous connection to Quentin the mommy-killer. Because otherwise, it's impossible to justify annuling the mages with even a pretense of rationality, and the people who make that choice would whine about BioWare's "sjw bias" even more than they already do. I've always suspected it was less about "needing another boss fight" and more about "we need to throw mage-haters a bone because their position barely makes any sense as it is". Bioware forcing the player character to kill unarmed people (in cutscenes or gameplay) would go against the nature of roleplay. If it was optional to do so I would certainly appreciate such a choice to be available to me because like you said it would be realistic. So far in the games we've had two chances to annul the Circle and in both cases we have only killed people who can fight back instead of the innocents. I guess having such choices available would mean that Dragon Age would have to lean more towards its Dark Fantasy roots - and considering the Mature rating these games have it should not be out of question. SWTOR for example has many opportunities to kill innocent people (and in general has the best "evil" choices of any Bioware games) and also has Mature rating. I have little faith in DA4 going to that direction unfortunately but one can always hope! I don't consider it to be "forcing" players to do anything. If they've chosen to annul a circle or wipe out an elf clan, then they've chosen to kill defenceless people and children. It's been thoroughly established multiple times in the narrative that that is how it works, they can't claim ignorance now. If players don't want to do that, then they shouldn't make that choice. And again, to be clear, my argument is not "BioWare should let us kill kids for the lols", it's "BioWare should either confront the reality of bigotry and oppression and what it means to choose to help perpetuate it, or step back from these themes if they can't hack it."
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 2, 2021 2:56:49 GMT
Roleplay is an important factor in a roleplaying game, and it should never be ignored. People who don't like roleplaying shouldn't play a roleplaying game.
As for background, I oppose a "slave" background merely because the Spartacus storyline has been done to death and I don't see it being spiced up just because there's magic everywhere.
I'd prefer my background to be an Antivan Crow. It would allow me to be foreign enough to ask lore and worldbuilding questions, because Tevinter is said to be a foreign place to everyone else in Thedas, and because, according to Zevran, Antivan Crows can be killers in all matter of styles. Some make things look like accidents, others are more about poisons. It would allow us great freedom to play any sort of way, because Antivan Crows would assuredly have their own mages. Plus, you could have assassination sidequests.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 3:56:51 GMT
I hope so. British accents are far more reasonable than the outrageous accents of the Orlesians! Although I imagine that Dorian's Kings English is more common for the upper class, while we have more modern English for the lower classes. Here is hoping for a northerner protagonist. I want the most outrageous fake french accent possible. I will be Francois Croissant du Fromage, and my Mabari will be Frou-frou.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 4:05:17 GMT
Lol. "Roleplaying".
Dragon Age doesn't let me do anything that I would actually want to do if I lived in the world of Thedas, and the people in here defending "roleplaying" now would immediately change their tune if I asked for the kinds of choices that reflect what I actually want to do, because of "realism" or "authenticity" or some other meaningless, totally arbitrary term like that.
Just admit that you don't want to be confronted by the reality of what choosing to kill innocent, defenseless people actually looks like.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 2, 2021 4:37:41 GMT
So would we be from Orlais or Ferelden going to Tevinter instead of being a native? I think if they go with the slave background then it would make sense but otherwise it is hard to see why anyone from there would want to voluntarily enter a war zone. If you had been captured as a child then it would explain the lack of an accent or extensive knowledge of your country of origin. Mind you, that could apply to any country of origin. Otherwise, the only real reason to be in Tevinter would be to have been sent there by an organisation in the south, for example the Inquisition, or because you are a member of an organisation based in the north, like the Lords of Fortune or the Grey Wardens for that matter, but had your origins in the south. However, I keep saying this. There is no reason why we have to come from the area we were in the previous game. It was only ever a fan theory that this was some sort of rule by the writers. Considering that we are now going to an area that is largely independent in culture from the whole of southern Thedas, it makes sense that they would use this as an opportunity for a clean break with the past. I also hope this is the case because I would like to play someone from a completely different culture rather than be an interlope. I am nowhere near as up on the lore as you are, but is it against Tevinter law for citizens (of Tevinter) to be made slaves? I can understand maybe not forced slavery, but our own history has indentured servitude as well (which is just a pretty way of saying someone sold themselves into slavery to pay a debt).
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 2, 2021 4:40:17 GMT
I hope so. British accents are far more reasonable than the outrageous accents of the Orlesians! Although I imagine that Dorian's Kings English is more common for the upper class, while we have more modern English for the lower classes. Here is hoping for a northerner protagonist. The Assassin Creed games have done this for the last (three at least) games and don't appear to have suffered for it. I wouldn't mind in the least not hearing an English or American accent come out of the protagonists mouth. Edit - anything but a New Zealand accent. Because gross.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2021 5:17:38 GMT
Bioware forcing the player character to kill unarmed people (in cutscenes or gameplay) would go against the nature of roleplay. If it was optional to do so I would certainly appreciate such a choice to be available to me because like you said it would be realistic. So far in the games we've had two chances to annul the Circle and in both cases we have only killed people who can fight back instead of the innocents. I guess having such choices available would mean that Dragon Age would have to lean more towards its Dark Fantasy roots - and considering the Mature rating these games have it should not be out of question. SWTOR for example has many opportunities to kill innocent people (and in general has the best "evil" choices of any Bioware games) and also has Mature rating. I have little faith in DA4 going to that direction unfortunately but one can always hope! I don't consider it to be "forcing" players to do anything. If they've chosen to annul a circle or wipe out an elf clan, then they've chosen to kill defenceless people and children. It's been thoroughly established multiple times in the narrative that that is how it works, they can't claim ignorance now. If players don't want to do that, then they shouldn't make that choice. And again, to be clear, my argument is not "BioWare should let us kill kids for the lols", it's "BioWare should either confront the reality of bigotry and oppression and what it means to choose to help perpetuate it, or step back from these themes if they can't hack it." But people are not robots. Choosing to annul the Circle is not the same as having no choice but to kill every single person living there. Gotta leave something for the templars too, right?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 2, 2021 7:28:37 GMT
I am nowhere near as up on the lore as you are, but is it against Tevinter law for citizens (of Tevinter) to be made slaves? I can understand maybe not forced slavery, but our own history has indentured servitude as well (which is just a pretty way of saying someone sold themselves into slavery to pay a debt). I'm not sure if it has ever been said that a citizen can't be stripped of their rights and made a slave. However, I do recall that if you sentence Erimond to be made tranquil he says: "You... you cannot. I am a Lord, you pissants (peasants?). I will not lose myself." We know from Dorian that mages can be made tranquil in Tevinter for antagonising the wrong people, which is effectively removing their citizenship and making them a slave of whoever controls them. Yet it would seem from what Erimond believes, this cannot be done to a Lord (Altus), so may be that is only ever done to Laetans, whose families are not sufficiently influential to prevent this. Still it doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility that a similar thing couldn't happen to Soporati, with them being made a slave instead of tranquil. Whilst it is more likely that whether mage or mundane, if your offence is serious enough, you are more likely to just be executed, I assume the reason the mages are made tranquil rather than killed is to serve as a living warning to everyone else what the penalty is for crossing those in power, so making a Soporati a slave would likely serve the same purpose. Also, I don't know at what age you are considered to become a citizen but poorer people among the Soporati have been known to sell their children into slavery in order to survive. In fact, Krem's father sold himself into slavery when he could no longer afford to live as a free man. He must definitely have been a citizen because Krem was a citizen. You aren't allowed to serve in the military if you are a slave or Liberati. Thus, at the very least a citizen is allowed to sell themselves into slavery but why shouldn't it also be a form of punishment by those in authority?
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 2, 2021 8:00:39 GMT
1) The most obvious one is the decision over Connor, particularly if you have not yet been to the Circle Tower. 2) Another one: the decision about the Grey Wardens in DAI. With that, the common sense choice is to banish them (temporarily) for their own safety as much as anything else. 1) Yes, this one is pretty much hindsight.
2) My guess: partial fanservice? I took it as a decent number of players were already sufficiently upset that the Wardens were forced into idiot ball territory (or extreme desperation if one feels charitable).
I actually have Wardens being ejected still around in my main worldstate if I recall right, and as far as I otherwise remember, the wording of the decision to banish doesn't quite line up with the "forever and ever" vibe the Inquisitor then speaks out.
Conversely, of course, we never see any children within the walls of the Chantry, hence people being able to argue that Anders' bomb didn't kill any children. Eh, in my experience, the Annulment advocacy/pro-Meredith faction usually races headlong into the "full innocent Church" (capitalisation intended) rhetoric. While conveniently, the minor age apprentices, which are confirmed by what we know about when magic usually manifests (as early as four up to early teens), ... magically cease to be kids once their magic manifests. I think this is also the real reason they make narrative choices like, for example, Orsino turning on the player and becoming a harvester and giving him an extremely vague, tenuous connection to Quentin the mommy-killer. Because otherwise, it's impossible to justify annuling the mages with even a pretence of rationality, and the people who make that choice would whine about BioWare's "sjw bias" even more than they already do. I've always suspected it was less about "needing another boss fight" and more about "we need to throw mage-haters a bone because their position barely makes any sense as it is". ... and it doesn't even work because it is hindsight/meta at best. So far in the games we've had two chances to annul the Circle and in both cases we have only killed people who can fight back instead of the innocents. Well, the issue with "Annulment" and "innocent" and "fighting back" is that, if a mage knows that Annulment has been declared and they know that they will be killed, no questions asked, what are they supposed to do? I hope so. British accents are far more reasonable than the outrageous accents of the Orlesians! Although I imagine that Dorian's Kings English is more common for the upper class, while we have more modern English for the lower classes. Here is hoping for a northerner protagonist. I want the most outrageous fake french accent possible. I will be Francois Croissant du Fromage, and my Mabari will be Frou-frou. I'm okay with not having any cringy north american accents. Lol. "Roleplaying". Dragon Age doesn't let me do anything that I would actually want to do if I lived in the world of Thedas, and the people in here defending "roleplaying" now would immediately change their tune if I asked for the kinds of choices that reflect what I actually want to do, because of "realism" or "authenticity" or some other meaningless, totally arbitrary term like that. Just admit that you don't want to be confronted by the reality of what choosing to kill innocent, defenseless people actually looks like. Yeah... where's my option to blow a Chantry? On my own volition please? It can even be empty for starters. Choosing to annul the Circle is not the same as having no choice but to kill every single person living there. Uh, Annulment, 'legally' speaking, does mean "purging a circle entirely", at least as far as mages are concerned. Tranquil or support personnel are usually never mentioned.
Why?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 2, 2021 8:05:41 GMT
Fun isn't really my primary concern, so much as being intellectually honest about what certain choices entail. BioWare could still have forced players who opt to annul circles or slaughter elf clans to kill unarmed people who pose no threat to the PC and only cower and beg for their lives. So far in the games we've had two chances to annul the Circle and in both cases we have only killed people who can fight back instead of the innocents. That is because, as Panda pointed out, they suddenly disappeared from the scene. Annuling a Circle means killing everyone inside that Circle without exception. Certainly everyone capable of being possessed, which includes the child mages but possibly not the tranquil, although if they are possessed then they will no longer be tranquil. In DAO there are children there with Wynne when we first arrive. In DA2 we never see the children but we know from Bethany they are there. Where did they go? They weren't even shown in the cut scene of the Templars massacring everyone. You can argue that people can imagine it but the whole point is that I'm sure many players rationalise it that they are only killing dangerous people capable of defending themselves. as you seem to have done Zemgus, and that is simply not the case. Every Circle has children, so if you chose to Annul the Circle, you did slaughter innocents unable to defend themselves. May be it was a case of rushed production and limited resources, but in DA2 the Sabrae clan not only lost all their halla since DAO but all their children too. Are we to assume they died on route as well? Or are we just to imagine they were there somewhere? Let's face it the number of adults we did see wasn't huge. So presumably, even if we didn't kill the children ourselves, it can be imagined they were left in alone and defenceless in the wilds of Sundermount, either to starve to death or be killed. Interestingly, it would seem that PW decided retrospectively to deal with a similar problem from his novel Masked Empire. When Felassan lets Michael free Imshael, knowing the likely consequences of releasing an ancient demon on the clan, it didn't make either him or the rest of his group look that good. Even worse we learn afterwards that he ripped apart the entire clan in such a horrific way that even a seasoned warrior like Gaspard was appalled at the carnage. Now this wasn't just people capable of defending themselves but children as well. They were specifically mentioned in the text, albeit only small in number. I presume that PW must have taken to heart comments criticising his heroes because by WoT2 we are informed that Imshael didn't kill the children but dumped them on the nearest Dalish clan to be their problem. Which seems hard to credit considering the next nearest clan would have been miles away and not long after the massacre, Mihris, who has been possessed by Imshael, joins up with Gaspard's party. I don't know if that means in the future the writers will not put us in a position where we could theoretically be killing children, even if we can't actually be confronted by that in game play, but it would seem the writers are certainly sensitive to the adverse reaction in even implying it, so it is more likely it will not be an option at all.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2021 10:40:34 GMT
So far in the games we've had two chances to annul the Circle and in both cases we have only killed people who can fight back instead of the innocents. Well, the issue with "Annulment" and "innocent" and "fighting back" is that, if a mage knows that Annulment has been declared and they know that they will be killed, no questions asked, what are they supposed to do? Choosing to annul the Circle is not the same as having no choice but to kill every single person living there. Uh, Annulment, 'legally' speaking, does mean "purging a circle entirely", at least as far as mages are concerned. Tranquil or support personnel are usually never mentioned.
Why?
It's their job. Our player character in these situations have been just hired help who take care of the main threat. It's the templars job to take care of the actual annulment. It's not our job/duty to kill the innocent mages.
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Post by fylimar on Sept 2, 2021 11:03:24 GMT
So, let me get this right: It is absolutely ok to help a bunch of people to kill innocent children, as long as you don't lift your hand yourself? That's a really weird logic there. And I could draw real life historical events, where evil people tried exactly this (and luckily lost), but I don't want to open that can of worms.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 2, 2021 11:42:27 GMT
So, let me get this right: It is absolutely ok to help a bunch of people to kill innocent children, as long as you don't lift your hand yourself? That's a really weird logic there. And I could draw real life historical events, where evil people tried exactly this (and luckily lost), but I don't want to open that can of worms. Killing is hardly new in Thedas, even crimes that we might consider atrocious. To pretend otherwise is rather silly. A lot of people raising a stink over "killing" or "standing by and allowing killing" are really just trying to say it's only wrong to kill certain kinds of people. The same people who will say "you're standing by and killing innocent children" would be the same people who supported Anders for blowing up a Chantry with random people inside because they don't consider the Chantry to be people and the mages were important so they can kill any non-mages for their cause. The hypocrisy is lost on them, mostly due to cognitive dissonance on a great scale, or because they don't want to admit they like slaughter, provided they are slaughtering people they don't like.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2021 12:05:00 GMT
So, let me get this right: It is absolutely ok to help a bunch of people to kill innocent children, as long as you don't lift your hand yourself? That's a really weird logic there. And I could draw real life historical events, where evil people tried exactly this (and luckily lost), but I don't want to open that can of worms. If this comment is meant for me I'm not arguing about what is wrong or right. My philosophy here is the more choices the better and I wholeheartedly support having realistic consequences to your actions (both the "good" and "bad"). But the players ability to roleplay must always be respected so it makes no sense to say that if the player chooses to help the templars they should also be forced to kill the innocents. That just makes no sense in a roleplaying game. Even if I was playing a templar I would need to have that choice: am I playing a lawful character who will do what they're told or are they more of a "softie" who can't deal with the reality of the situation they find themselves in? Or if I'm playing an evil character who doesn't see the mages as humans I might even enjoy the killing. That's roleplaying.
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Post by fylimar on Sept 2, 2021 12:21:13 GMT
So, let me get this right: It is absolutely ok to help a bunch of people to kill innocent children, as long as you don't lift your hand yourself? That's a really weird logic there. And I could draw real life historical events, where evil people tried exactly this (and luckily lost), but I don't want to open that can of worms. Killing is hardly new in Thedas, even crimes that we might consider atrocious. To pretend otherwise is rather silly. A lot of people raising a stink over "killing" or "standing by and allowing killing" are really just trying to say it's only wrong to kill certain kinds of people. The same people who will say "you're standing by and killing innocent children" would be the same people who supported Anders for blowing up a Chantry with random people inside because they don't consider the Chantry to be people and the mages were important so they can kill any non-mages for their cause. The hypocrisy is lost on them, mostly due to cognitive dissonance on a great scale, or because they don't want to admit they like slaughter, provided they are slaughtering people they don't like. I can't speak for others, but for me, blowing up the chantry is no different from helping with the annullment of the circle. There are probably innocents in there too. So no, I don't make a difference, I just think, you should see the consequences.
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Post by fylimar on Sept 2, 2021 12:23:37 GMT
So, let me get this right: It is absolutely ok to help a bunch of people to kill innocent children, as long as you don't lift your hand yourself? That's a really weird logic there. And I could draw real life historical events, where evil people tried exactly this (and luckily lost), but I don't want to open that can of worms. If this comment is meant for me I'm not arguing about what is wrong or right. My philosophy here is the more choices the better and I wholeheartedly support having realistic consequences to your actions (both the "good" and "bad"). But the players ability to roleplay must always be respected so it makes no sense to say that if the player chooses to help the templars they should also be forced to kill the innocents. That just makes no sense in a roleplaying game. Even if I was playing a templar I would need to have that choice: am I playing a lawful character who will do what they're told or are they more of a "softie" who can't deal with the reality of the situation they find themselves in? Or if I'm playing an evil character who doesn't see the mages as humans I might even enjoy the killing. That's roleplaying. People, me included, pointed out, that by enabling to help the templars with the annullment, you are helping to kill innocents and that is a fact. If you feel bad about it or not, is up to you.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2021 12:31:10 GMT
If this comment is meant for me I'm not arguing about what is wrong or right. My philosophy here is the more choices the better and I wholeheartedly support having realistic consequences to your actions (both the "good" and "bad"). But the players ability to roleplay must always be respected so it makes no sense to say that if the player chooses to help the templars they should also be forced to kill the innocents. That just makes no sense in a roleplaying game. Even if I was playing a templar I would need to have that choice: am I playing a lawful character who will do what they're told or are they more of a "softie" who can't deal with the reality of the situation they find themselves in? Or if I'm playing an evil character who doesn't see the mages as humans I might even enjoy the killing. That's roleplaying. People, me included, pointed out, that by enabling to help the templars with the annullment, you are helping to kill innocents and that is a fact. If you feel bad about it or not, is up to you. But what Pessimistic Panda suggested was that the player should personally be forced to kill the innocent people (children and others who do not fight back). And that is what doesn't make sense to me when we're talking about a roleplaying game. What you're talking about is more generic and from that perspective we kill innocent people all the time in these games.
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Elvis Has Left The Building
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Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,073
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 13:03:26 GMT
So, let me get this right: It is absolutely ok to help a bunch of people to kill innocent children, as long as you don't lift your hand yourself? That's a really weird logic there. And I could draw real life historical events, where evil people tried exactly this (and luckily lost), but I don't want to open that can of worms. Killing is hardly new in Thedas, even crimes that we might consider atrocious. To pretend otherwise is rather silly. A lot of people raising a stink over "killing" or "standing by and allowing killing" are really just trying to say it's only wrong to kill certain kinds of people. The same people who will say "you're standing by and killing innocent children" would be the same people who supported Anders for blowing up a Chantry with random people inside because they don't consider the Chantry to be people and the mages were important so they can kill any non-mages for their cause. The hypocrisy is lost on them, mostly due to cognitive dissonance on a great scale, or because they don't want to admit they like slaughter, provided they are slaughtering people they don't like. Or we don't consider Chantry priests and Templars to be "innocent", for reasons we've shared that you've decided to ignore.
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August 2016
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2021 13:12:39 GMT
Killing is hardly new in Thedas, even crimes that we might consider atrocious. To pretend otherwise is rather silly. A lot of people raising a stink over "killing" or "standing by and allowing killing" are really just trying to say it's only wrong to kill certain kinds of people. The same people who will say "you're standing by and killing innocent children" would be the same people who supported Anders for blowing up a Chantry with random people inside because they don't consider the Chantry to be people and the mages were important so they can kill any non-mages for their cause. The hypocrisy is lost on them, mostly due to cognitive dissonance on a great scale, or because they don't want to admit they like slaughter, provided they are slaughtering people they don't like. Or we don't consider Chantry priests and Templars to be "innocent", for reasons we've shared that you've decided to ignore. What about the other casualties, though? Varric said that most of the damage was done to the part of the city where Fereldan refugees were living. Hundreds or thousands of people died, not just the people who were in the Chantry at the time (which may very well have included children as well). They don't matter either?
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Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,073
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 13:19:35 GMT
People, me included, pointed out, that by enabling to help the templars with the annullment, you are helping to kill innocents and that is a fact. If you feel bad about it or not, is up to you. But what Pessimistic Panda suggested was that the player should personally be forced to kill the innocent people (children and others who do not fight back). And that is what doesn't make sense to me when we're talking about a roleplaying game. What you're talking about is more generic and from that perspective we kill innocent people all the time in these games. What doesn't make sense about it? DA games are RIFE with limitations and points of no return that lock players into choices they made even if they don't like the outcome. If requiring players to commit to something they *said they would do* in order to complete the game is "anti-roleplaying" then everything in DA is anti-roleplaying. Game: "Okay, so this door is for defending the children, and if you go through this other door you will have to kill the children." Player: "I pick the second door." Game: "Okay, here are the children." Player: "Wtf? I'm not doing it!" Game: "But we warned you there were children." Player: "I'm not doing it!" Game: "Okay, well this is a critical path quest and we already locked the door behind you so if you want to move forward you have to kill the children." How is that different from how literally any other video game mission works? Besides the fact that you don't like the content?
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inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,073
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 13:21:43 GMT
Or we don't consider Chantry priests and Templars to be "innocent", for reasons we've shared that you've decided to ignore. What about the other casualties, though? Varric said that most of the damage was done to the part of the city where Fereldan refugees were living. Hundreds or thousands of people died, not just the people who were in the Chantry at the time (which may very well have included children as well). They don't matter either? Well if you don't have to kill children when you annul a circle, then I don't have to think about "hundreds of thousands of people" that apparently wandered into Kirkwall: population 12 just in time to be crushed by falling busts of Andraste.
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285
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1,950
Zemgus
1,251
August 2016
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2021 13:24:04 GMT
But what Pessimistic Panda suggested was that the player should personally be forced to kill the innocent people (children and others who do not fight back). And that is what doesn't make sense to me when we're talking about a roleplaying game. What you're talking about is more generic and from that perspective we kill innocent people all the time in these games. What doesn't make sense about it? DA games are RIFE with limitations and points of no return that lock players into choices they made even if they don't like the outcome. If requiring players to commit to something they *said they would do* in order to complete the game is "anti-roleplaying" then everything in DA is anti-roleplaying. Game: "Okay, so this door is for defending the children, and if you go through this other door you will have to kill the children." Player: "I pick the second door." Game: "Okay, here are the children." Player: "Wtf? I'm not doing it!" Game: "But we warned you there were children." Player: "I'm not doing it!" Game: "Okay, well this is a critical path quest and we already locked the door behind you so if you want to move forward you have to kill the children." How is that different from how literally any other video game mission works? Besides the fact that you don't like the content? What are you on about? In DAO you can clearly say you're not making that decision until you see the situation for yourself. So you can agree to help the templars deal with the abominations, but you don't have to agree to help them kill everyone. You can, but you don't have to. In DA2 you have a choice to either spare the mages who surrendered or tell Cullen to kill them all. Again, you have a choice.
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