Black Magic Ritual
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Samus Aran, your heart is fine <3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Sept 2, 2021 16:21:51 GMT
Oppressors are not entitled to infinite time to change their minds, and the oppressed are not obligated to be patient. If some of the people Anders killed might have eventually one day been swayed by reasoned debate, tough. They already had plenty of time, and anyone who argues otherwise is just transparently attempting to reinforce oppression. Please Panda, explain to us how the innocent children killed by Anders, who didn't even understand the Mage/Templar, had ample enough time to have had their mind swayed to the other side.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 2, 2021 16:25:00 GMT
I can't answer a question if you don't have one. Which "the elves" are we talking about exactly? Are you talking about Red Crossing or some other thousand-year-old irrelevent bullshit? That is the question I asked, which you refused to answer. If you're going to just flat-out fucking lie to me about my own posts, at least try to avoid doing it on the exact same page. EDIT: lol, I just went back and read the rest of your post and it's complete and utter gibberish
That's a question I already answered multiple times to you. If you can't pay attention, then try to be quiet. I'm trying to have a discussion about human origins and you keep whining about elves.
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ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 2, 2021 16:25:28 GMT
No one here is Hitler. Please do not make Godwin's Law even more relevant. Kindly be civil.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 2, 2021 16:27:37 GMT
I want to be an ultra powerful mage that was a slave and is now freed. If I am a non mage human then I hope for the same. Remember we are supposed to be off the radar so a famous family would not help that.
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Post by theascendent on Sept 2, 2021 16:28:31 GMT
Ahem! Do you suppose that we might learn more of the origins of humanity in DA4?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 16:29:33 GMT
Oppressors are not entitled to infinite time to change their minds, and the oppressed are not obligated to be patient. If some of the people Anders killed might have eventually one day been swayed by reasoned debate, tough. They already had plenty of time, and anyone who argues otherwise is just transparently attempting to reinforce oppression. Please Panda, explain to us how the innocent children killed by Anders, who didn't even understand the Mage/Templar, had ample enough time to have had their mind swayed to the other side. Oh, so NOW all of a sudden we're caring about children? But not the mutant children who get torn from their families and locked up in rape dungeons and then eventually slaughtered because the first enchanter got too uppity. Only the important children. Don't presume to fucking lecture me about the deaths of innocents, when it's clear you're willing to swallow literally any atrocity as long as it's in the name of the setting's obvious stand-in for white Christianity.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 2, 2021 16:30:02 GMT
Lol, don't know where people get this idea that BioWare is somehow subservient to the "safe space brigade". Previous BioWare games have bent over backwards to make arguments that attempt to excuse and justify slavery and genocidal actions against clearly oppressed in-game peoples. DA2 let you sell companions into slavery and even own a slave yourself. You have a point but DA2 came out 10 years ago and even in that comparatively short time attitudes have changed about what is perceived as acceptable in products for entertainment. Also, many of the people involved with those early entries in the universe, including the lead writer, have now left so the way things are depicted is going to be entirely at the discretion of those on the current writing team. What is noticeable from Tevinter Nights is that there is now an anti-slavery faction in Tevinter when there has never been any suggestion of this in the past. (Why would Dorian have considered slavery in the way he did and never thought to question it if there was an anti-slavery faction promoting the southern viewpoint in Tevinter?) Yet apparently some members of the Venatori only joined that organisation because they thought it was anti-slavery. I know Calpernia had a personal ideal of this sort and did free a number of slaves to be on her team but I find it hard to imagine Venatori like Erimond buying into her aims or anyone who was trying to restore the glory of Ancient Tevinter. This seems borne out by the fact that with Calpernia out of the way, the leaders of the Venatori have now no qualms about abusing the slaves in their ownership and those few who allegedly did think slave freedom was part of the agenda, have now left the organisation. So it does appear the writers are now framing the situation as the bad guys favour slavery and the good guys don't, bearing in mind Dorian has now freed all his slaves, having been persuaded of the error of the attitude he expressed to the Inquisitor. At the very least I think they are going to play down the fact that certain people, like Maevaris, still think Dorian's action was rather quaint. So I think it is highly unlikely that will be creating a human noble protagonist who starts the game as a keeper of slaves, unless they use that to introduce the idea of them experiencing a dramatic fall from grace at the very beginning, so they are stripped of their citizenship and end up in the slave market. That would fulfill the requirement for them to start the game with no power and be able to show the power structure within Tevinter at the same time. In fact, if they were going to allow different races, they could all start off within the same introductory story but as different roles within the household. For example, they could be a Tal'Vashoth bodyguard, an elven slave or a dwarven overseer. All would end up in the slave market along with their master. Then either the city is attacked by the Qunari with the PC escaping in the ensuing chaos, or (if we start off in Minrathous) the PC is "purchased" by an interested party, who promises to liberate them but for a price. I never read the comics but in DA2 Fenris says an archon actually banned slavery at one point but was immediatly assasinated. Fenris was basically saying their were magisters who didn't like slavery but if they fought against it they would be killed. So there has been an anti slavery group to a degree since DA2.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 16:30:50 GMT
That is the question I asked, which you refused to answer. If you're going to just flat-out fucking lie to me about my own posts, at least try to avoid doing it on the exact same page. EDIT: lol, I just went back and read the rest of your post and it's complete and utter gibberish
That's a question I already answered multiple times to you. If you can't pay attention, then try to be quiet. I'm trying to have a discussion about human origins and you keep whining about elves. Yeah, I can see you're trying real hard.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2021 16:34:29 GMT
Talk about a bad faith argument. Anyone who disagrees with you only think one certain way that discredits them. Well, what about me? I am upset that Anders kills innocents, yet I don’t think the way you are describing. I have repeatedly talked about caring about the mages, elves, and other innocent groups. It’s not that difficult: I’m opposed to innocent people suffering. I’m just opposed to actions that cause other innocents to suffer, and do not have a twisted view that anyone who is a part of a group is guilty of the crimes committed by someone else in that group. Also why bring up the Exalted Marches, when those were centuries ago? If elves can’t be held accountable for the atrocities their ancestors caused, the same applies to humans. Considering how you brought up an ancient atrocity as a justification, you seem to support exactly that. But here, I’ll answer your question while addressing this: you act like there haven’t been modern instances. The mages have tons of apostates that have killed countless people. The Dalish have shown that they will kill people who have done nothing to them (that’s even the first choice in the Dalish origin), there have been city elves that have killed lots of innocent people like the one woman in Kirkwall with the poison gas or Briala’s faction, and so on. By your logic, any member of these groups should be killed because they are guilty by association. Hanako, you are actually EXACTLY the person I was thinking of when I composed that entire post. All I ever see you do (when you aren't bitching about how DA4 is already ruined) is criticise fictional oppressed people for not licking the boot and begging for more. The Chantry conducted an exalted march on Rivain literally between the second and third games, and it is complicit in the Orlesian invasion of Ferelden, which occurred in Loghain's lifetime, and it's abuse of mages and elves is ONGOING. It's not ancient at all. If you don't understand that much, and can't make an argument without 1) lying about the content we're discussing and 2) lying about my own arguments (which I can just scroll up and read), then please, please god, just don't reply to me at all. I have never criticized mages, elves, or any other oppressed group in the game for wanting better lives. And have constantly played in a way that makes their lives better. I just don’t support using actions like mass murder to end it. So you’re full of shit if you think that about me. Notice you dodged my questions to you. Too busy personally attacking me and anyone who disagrees with you instead I guess.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2021 16:35:27 GMT
Ahem! Do you suppose that we might learn more of the origins of humanity in DA4? I doubt more than a hint, and even then only what we already know: humanity came from other continents.
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Black Magic Ritual
N3
Samus Aran, your heart is fine <3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Sept 2, 2021 16:43:33 GMT
Please Panda, explain to us how the innocent children killed by Anders, who didn't even understand the Mage/Templar, had ample enough time to have had their mind swayed to the other side. Oh, so NOW all of a sudden we're caring about children? But not the mutant children who get torn from their families and locked up in rape dungeons and then eventually slaughtered because the first enchanter got too uppity. Only the important children. Don't presume to fucking lecture me about the deaths of innocents, when it's clear you're willing to swallow literally any atrocity as long as it's in the name of the setting's obvious stand-in for white Christianity. Panda I don't know what Templar Apologist you've mistaken me for but thankfully, I'm not one of them. (Although I'm beginning to lean in that direction with all these whataboutery """""""arguments"""""" they'd have to deal with alongside Anders apologists.) So again, explain to us how the kiddies Anders blew to bits had ample enough time to change their minds on a conflict they were too young to understand.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 16:45:26 GMT
Hanako, you are actually EXACTLY the person I was thinking of when I composed that entire post. All I ever see you do (when you aren't bitching about how DA4 is already ruined) is criticise fictional oppressed people for not licking the boot and begging for more. The Chantry conducted an exalted march on Rivain literally between the second and third games, and it is complicit in the Orlesian invasion of Ferelden, which occurred in Loghain's lifetime, and it's abuse of mages and elves is ONGOING. It's not ancient at all. If you don't understand that much, and can't make an argument without 1) lying about the content we're discussing and 2) lying about my own arguments (which I can just scroll up and read), then please, please god, just don't reply to me at all. I have never criticized mages, elves, or any other oppressed group in the game for wanting better lives. And have constantly played in a way that makes their lives better. I just don’t support using actions like mass murder to end it. So you’re full of shit if you think that about me. Notice you dodged my questions to you. Too busy personally attacking me and anyone who disagrees with you instead I guess. Hanako, I didn't answer your questions, because, well, first of all, there are no questions in your post, just a bunch of declarative statements about what you think I believe, which, in view of your post here, is highly ironic. The second reason I didn't respond to your points is because I am talking about systemic oppression, and your counter argument was a few examples of random individuals who are dicks, which is not at all the same thing. If I want to get bogged down in a bunch of irrelevent nonsense, I'll talk to duskwanderer, thanks.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2021 16:46:31 GMT
That's the thing though. According to the World of Thedas it's not always a choice. Unwanted children are given to the Chantry (Lily for example). If your logic here is "guilty by association" then you could say the same thing about mages and that actually proves the templar's point. Might as well blame all the mages for the actions of the Tevinter Imperium while we're at it. Lily was also making plans to run away. Nothing's stopping priests from leaving if they want. I'll concede that Templars have been leashed by an addictive substance, but that only excuses not running away, it does not excuse literally everything else they do, and I'm not just referring to the "corrupt" ones, the system is abusive at its core. And to be clear, I do not "deny" that Anders may have killed people that might conceivably be called "innocent", I have made the calculated decision to not care about that, because nobody who brings this point up ever does so in good faith. What upsets people isn't that Anders kills "innocents", they don't give a single flying fuck about the innumerable innocent mages, elves or innocent anyone else who died due to the abuse or negligence or exalted marches of the Chantry, so clearly they don't care about "innocents" at all. What actually upsets them is that Anders acted at all, instead of waiting for the people stepping on his neck to just miraculously stop of their own accord. It's the same old song, no matter what the context, fictional or real. Whenever oppressed people fight back in any meaningful, effective way that actually works, they get criticised. There's never a "right" way to rebel, or protest, or defend themselves. The only "moral" thing an oppressed person can do is die while waiting for their oppressors to change their minds. Oppressors are not entitled to infinite time to change their minds, and the oppressed are not obligated to be patient. If some of the people Anders killed might have eventually one day been swayed by reasoned debate, tough. They already had plenty of time, and anyone who argues otherwise is just transparently attempting to reinforce oppression. But if the templars don't do what they're told then they'll end up like Samson (begging in the streets for 'dwarf dust'). Lyrium is like heroin. They can't function without it. So the templars are victims of this corrupt system just like the mages. Also, whether what Anders did works or doesn't work depends entirely on player choices: if both your Hawke and the Inquisitor choose to side with the templars instead of the mages then all Anders' terrorist attack accomplished was getting hundreds of mages killed (as well as all the other innocent lives lost not only in the initial explosion but also in the conflict between mages and the templars). It's curious to me how you make assumptions about what "upsets" people. I'm not upset by anything that happens in this fictional world. But I don't like hypocrisy or double-standards. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 2, 2021 16:55:01 GMT
Ahem! Do you suppose that we might learn more of the origins of humanity in DA4? I doubt more than a hint, and even then only what we already know: humanity came from other continents. It was the elves that told that, though, wasn't it? As we saw in DA:I, elves are notoriously bad with their own history, so I'm not sure we can take it at face value. There are pyramids on Par Vollen, but that doesn't mean the humans didn't exist elsewhere.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 17:15:40 GMT
Oh, so NOW all of a sudden we're caring about children? But not the mutant children who get torn from their families and locked up in rape dungeons and then eventually slaughtered because the first enchanter got too uppity. Only the important children. Don't presume to fucking lecture me about the deaths of innocents, when it's clear you're willing to swallow literally any atrocity as long as it's in the name of the setting's obvious stand-in for white Christianity. Panda I don't know what Templar Apologist you've mistaken me for but thankfully, I'm not one of them. (Although I'm beginning to lean in that direction with all these whataboutery """""""arguments"""""" they'd have to deal with alongside Anders apologists.) So again, explain to us how the kiddies Anders blew to bits had ample enough time to change their minds on a conflict they were too young to understand. Well I'm not an Anders apologist, because that would imply I thought he'd done anything that needs to be apologised for. I support people fighting for their basic human rights by any means they have available. I already explained, in the original post you quoted, that you clearly didn't read, that I've conceded that Anders killed people who might conceivably be considered "innocent", and that I made the calculated decision not to care about them. I was forced into that corner, by bad faith arguments like this exact one you are making. This "think of the children" garbage is just another way of saying Anders should have done nothing, that no mage should ever do anything. Because of the children. It's a very convenient, because there's always going to be more children. There'll always be the ones who are "too young to understand", "didn't get enough time", blah blah blah. And while you're busy handwringing over all the children who might suffer or die, children continue to suffer and die at the hands of the chantry. So which children are more deserving of my concern? Frankly, I don't give a single fuck about the fictional children. Anders can nuke all of Thedas into a lump of molten glass, for all I care. If it can't be better than it is currently, then it's not a world worth saving.
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Post by veganzombiebeerfish on Sept 2, 2021 17:17:30 GMT
Clearly the best possible origin in DA4 will be human noble. Why wouldn't you want to start with the best possible advantages, the superior social status, the best racial advantage and the best moral position?
The dwarves and other lesser races simply can not compete and deserve their impending extinction. This applies especially to the pathetic elves with their whining and self-destructive behavior.
The Qunari might seem to be contenders, but as a race of over sized bigots they need to get what's coming to them good and hard.
The Tevinter Chantry is an aid rather than a hindrance like in Orlais or Ferelden. Mages are superior and that fact is clearly recognized there. We play for gratification and what could be more gratifying than kicking butt from one end of the game to the other?
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Post by Walter Black on Sept 2, 2021 17:20:06 GMT
Whether or not you think it necessary for narrative authenticity, I'm pretty sure the ESRB prohibits allowing players to kill children onscreen, so it's a moot point either way.
As for the OP's original question, I've long maintained that I feel the best compromise for DA4'a protagonist would to be a slave of high ranking nobility, maybe even the Archon himself. High enough to be familiar with major players, but still low enough to need to work your way up.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2021 17:21:34 GMT
I doubt more than a hint, and even then only what we already know: humanity came from other continents. It was the elves that told that, though, wasn't it? As we saw in DA:I, elves are notoriously bad with their own history, so I'm not sure we can take it at face value. There are pyramids on Par Vollen, but that doesn't mean the humans didn't exist elsewhere. Well, dwarves history records a time before humans were on Thedas too. And World of Thedas seems to confirm that. Maybe humanity doesn’t know or forgotten that, but consider it’s been thousands of years more likely it just doesn’t matter anymore. Would have liked a game that focuses on exploration. Maybe Josephine helps, since she has wanted to explore beyond the map. But seems Antiva is being wasted on this story in DA4 instead.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 17:24:06 GMT
Lily was also making plans to run away. Nothing's stopping priests from leaving if they want. I'll concede that Templars have been leashed by an addictive substance, but that only excuses not running away, it does not excuse literally everything else they do, and I'm not just referring to the "corrupt" ones, the system is abusive at its core. And to be clear, I do not "deny" that Anders may have killed people that might conceivably be called "innocent", I have made the calculated decision to not care about that, because nobody who brings this point up ever does so in good faith. What upsets people isn't that Anders kills "innocents", they don't give a single flying fuck about the innumerable innocent mages, elves or innocent anyone else who died due to the abuse or negligence or exalted marches of the Chantry, so clearly they don't care about "innocents" at all. What actually upsets them is that Anders acted at all, instead of waiting for the people stepping on his neck to just miraculously stop of their own accord. It's the same old song, no matter what the context, fictional or real. Whenever oppressed people fight back in any meaningful, effective way that actually works, they get criticised. There's never a "right" way to rebel, or protest, or defend themselves. The only "moral" thing an oppressed person can do is die while waiting for their oppressors to change their minds. Oppressors are not entitled to infinite time to change their minds, and the oppressed are not obligated to be patient. If some of the people Anders killed might have eventually one day been swayed by reasoned debate, tough. They already had plenty of time, and anyone who argues otherwise is just transparently attempting to reinforce oppression. But if the templars don't do what they're told then they'll end up like Samson (begging in the streets for 'dwarf dust'). Lyrium is like heroin. They can't function without it. So the templars are victims of this corrupt system just like the mages. Also, whether what Anders did works or doesn't work depends entirely on player choices: if both your Hawke and the Inquisitor choose to side with the templars instead of the mages then all Anders' terrorist attack accomplished was getting hundreds of mages killed (as well as all the other innocent lives lost not only in the initial explosion but also in the conflict between mages and the templars). It's curious to me how you make assumptions about what "upsets" people. I'm not upset by anything that happens in this fictional world. But I don't like hypocrisy or double-standards. Two wrongs don't make a right. Statements like "two wrongs don't make a right" are exactly the sort of thing I am talking about. Nobody provides a meaningful alternative, they only criticise Anders for acting. And the same goes for any oppressed person who ever does anything remotely effective , or even ineffective but noticeable. Blowing shit up is "too far", throwing rocks at the authorities who've raided your nightclub and are beating you without provocation is "too far", marching is "too far", chanting is "too far", kneeling during a particular song is "too far". So unless you can finally tell me what the "acceptable" way to protest is, I'm going to write this off as more empty criticism. I don't know whether you're upset by this particular thing or not, I was speaking generally, but obviously you have some kind of an emotional attachment, because you're here, posting on the fan forum.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2021 17:24:45 GMT
Whether or not you think it necessary for narrative authenticity, I'm pretty sure the ESRB prohibits allowing players to kill children onscreen, so it's a moot point either way. Yeah, even sandbox games like the Bethesda ones where you can kill anybody doesn’t allow kids to be killed. Any game where you can would probably immediately get an AO rating, which means things like can’t be sold in stores. Not a good idea for a business like video game companies.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 17:26:11 GMT
Lol "the elves are notoriously bad with their own history".
Well golly-gee, I wonder why.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 17:27:16 GMT
Whether or not you think it necessary for narrative authenticity, I'm pretty sure the ESRB prohibits allowing players to kill children onscreen, so it's a moot point either way. As for the OP's original question, I've long maintained that I feel the best compromise for DA4'a protagonist would to be a slave of high ranking nobility, maybe even the Archon himself. High enough to be familiar with major players, but still low enough to need to work your way up. As I already explained in a previous post, it doesn't necessarily have to be children to make the point.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2021 17:31:00 GMT
Lol "the elves are notoriously bad with their own history". Well golly-gee, I wonder why. Solas.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2021 17:32:34 GMT
But if the templars don't do what they're told then they'll end up like Samson (begging in the streets for 'dwarf dust'). Lyrium is like heroin. They can't function without it. So the templars are victims of this corrupt system just like the mages. Also, whether what Anders did works or doesn't work depends entirely on player choices: if both your Hawke and the Inquisitor choose to side with the templars instead of the mages then all Anders' terrorist attack accomplished was getting hundreds of mages killed (as well as all the other innocent lives lost not only in the initial explosion but also in the conflict between mages and the templars). It's curious to me how you make assumptions about what "upsets" people. I'm not upset by anything that happens in this fictional world. But I don't like hypocrisy or double-standards. Two wrongs don't make a right. Statements like "two wrongs don't make a right" are exactly the sort of thing I am talking about. Nobody provides a meaningful alternative, they only criticise Anders for acting. And the same goes for any oppressed person who ever does anything remotely effective , or even ineffective but noticeable. Blowing shit up is "too far", throwing rocks at the authorities who've raided your nightclub and are beating you without provocation is "too far", marching is "too far", chanting is "too far", kneeling during a particular song is "too far". So unless you can finally tell me what the "acceptable" way to protest is, I'm going to write this off as more empty criticism. I don't know whether you're upset by this particular thing or not, I was speaking generally, but obviously you have some kind of an emotional attachment, because you're here, posting on the fan forum. Meaningful alternatives have been provided tons of times over the decade since the game came out. And let’s not equate civil protesters to terrorists okay? Certain groups already do that enough. As for what’s acceptable and what’s not, well things that kill innocent people is a good start for what’s not.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2021 17:33:17 GMT
Lol "the elves are notoriously bad with their own history". Well golly-gee, I wonder why. Solas. Yes yes, it was all Solas, and then nobody else ever did anything bad to the elves ever again.
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