"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion)

Yeah, a few people have brought this up but as character she feels to me to be somewhat underdeveloped. That could just be my Pro-Mage bias but besides her relationship with that noble and her Pro-Circle and Pro-Circle views there just doesn't seem to much to her.

Honestly, I really do wish there were more scenes with her letting that Iron Lady persona down giving her more humanity that would have made more engaging. Also her outright disdain for peasants and the mage rebels is a bit much. I mean, for fuck sake, even Sera can at least feel bad when elven servants get horribly murdered but Vivvy just says its all part of Game and sweeps it under the rug as if nothing important happened. Oh, and that disapproval scene of hers was just childish and beneath her.

Regardless, though I still did like her being in Inquisition if only to contribute to a diverse cast of weirdos.

That is why they should've created a backstory of why she's the person that she is like why Morrigan is always mean, selfish, and callous because of how Flemeth raised her harshly. Most female characters have a backstory except her and I wonder why they never did. The writers are a bit conspicuous if you ask me.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Feb 24, 2017 19:13:07 GMT

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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 24, 2017 19:13:07 GMT

Yeah, a few people have brought this up but as character she feels to me to be somewhat underdeveloped. That could just be my Pro-Mage bias but besides her relationship with that noble and her Pro-Circle and Pro-Circle views there just doesn't seem to much to her.

Honestly, I really do wish there were more scenes with her letting that Iron Lady persona down giving her more humanity that would have made more engaging. Also her outright disdain for peasants and the mage rebels is a bit much. I mean, for fuck sake, even Sera can at least feel bad when elven servants get horribly murdered but Vivvy just says its all part of Game and sweeps it under the rug as if nothing important happened. Oh, and that disapproval scene of hers was just childish and beneath her.

Regardless, though I still did like her being in Inquisition if only to contribute to a diverse cast of weirdos.

That is why they should've created a backstory of why she's the person that she is like why Morrigan is always mean, selfish, and callous because of how Flemeth raised her harshly. Most female characters have a backstory except her and I wonder why they never did. The writers are a bit conspicuous if you ask me.

I always figured the reason why she's such a, well, total bitch, was because she's been a part of the Orlesian court for so long. Orlais is basically French Westeros after all.

Seriously Orlais is like some nightmare realm that turns everyone who lives their into an asshole. Blackwall murdered children to rise up in the Game. Sera's homicidal hatred of nobles was probably born in Orlais. And Leliana was a heartless assassin for a while she was growing up there.

Last Edit: Feb 26, 2017 2:42:19 GMT by ComedicSociopathy

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Feb 26, 2017 19:42:08 GMT via mobile Catilina likes this

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Post by opuspace on Feb 26, 2017 19:42:08 GMT

I always figured the reason why she's such a, well, total bitch, was because she's been a part of the Orlesian court for so long. Orlais is basically French Westeros after all.

Seriously Orlais is like some nightmare realm that turns everyone who lives their into an asshole. Blackwall murdered children to rise up in the Game. Sera's homicidal hatred of nobles was probably born in Orlais. And Leliana was a heartless assassin for a while she was growing up there.

Blackwall was tricked into getting them killed. He had no idea they were going to be there. The one who hired him left that little detail out because otherwise, wouldn't Blackwall still be playing if he intended to kill them?

As for Vivienne, there are details about her personal life, but it's hinged on Cole's dialogue to the point there's nothing else to supplement it. Maybe they'll go more into it in the next game.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Feb 27, 2017 1:38:35 GMT opuspace likes this

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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 27, 2017 1:38:35 GMT

Feb 26, 2017 19:42:08 GMT opuspace said:

I always figured the reason why she's such a, well, total bitch, was because she's been a part of the Orlesian court for so long. Orlais is basically French Westeros after all.

Seriously Orlais is like some nightmare realm that turns everyone who lives their into an asshole. Blackwall murdered children to rise up in the Game. Sera's homicidal hatred of nobles was probably born in Orlais. And Leliana was a heartless assassin for a while she was growing up there.

Blackwall was tricked into getting them killed. He had no idea they were going to be there. The one who hired him left that little detail out because otherwise, wouldn't Blackwall still be playing if he intended to kill them?

As for Vivienne, there are details about her personal life, but it's hinged on Cole's dialogue to the point there's nothing else to supplement it. Maybe they'll go more into it in the next game.

Oh. I know that Blackwall didn't know that children would be there beforehand but if I remember correctly he still decided to let this soldiers kill them all anyway. The reason why he didn't keep playing the Game afterwards was because the politics in Orlais changed and everyone suddenly got outraged over the whole affair forcing him to run. Blackwall even implies that if things were different he might have been even given a medal for his actions. Oh, and also he felt like total crap for doing what he did so I'll might he wasn't a total monster. Regardless, the fact that military officers like Blackwall being used as a hit squad is normal in Orlais is just an example of how horrible that is place.

You are right though in that Cole's mind-reading does serve as one of few examples of the player getting an opportunity to learn about Vivvy's past but its ultimately just a few lines. The fact that Cassandra, Sera, Josephine, Cullen, Blackwall, Iron Bull, Dorian, Cole and Solas in Trespasser are all given opportunities to monologue about their past but Vivienne does not is what bothers me.

Hopeful your right that we'll get more in the next game but I doubt that Vivienne, if she even does show up, is going to be given anything more than a cameo in DA4.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Feb 27, 2017 2:15:33 GMT via mobile

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Post by opuspace on Feb 27, 2017 2:15:33 GMT

Feb 27, 2017 1:38:35 GMT ComedicSociopathy said:

Feb 26, 2017 19:42:08 GMT opuspace said:

Oh. I know that Blackwall didn't know that children would be there beforehand but if I remember correctly he still decided to let this soldiers kill them all anyway. The reason why he didn't keep playing the Game afterwards was because the politics in Orlais changed and everyone suddenly got outraged over the whole affair forcing him to run. Blackwall even implies that if things were different he might have been even given a medal for his actions. Oh, and also he felt like total crap for doing what he did so I'll might he wasn't a total monster. Regardless, the fact that military officers like Blackwall being used as a hit squad is normal in Orlais is just an example of how horrible that is place.

You are right though in that Cole's mind-reading does serve as one of few examples of the player getting an opportunity to learn about Vivvy's past but its ultimately just a few lines. The fact that Cassandra, Sera, Josephine, Cullen, Blackwall, Iron Bull, Dorian, Cole and Solas in Trespasser are all given opportunities to monologue about their past but Vivienne does not is what bothers me.

Hopeful your right that we'll get more in the next game but I doubt that Vivienne, if she even does show up, is going to be given anything more than a cameo in DA4.

I think it's more panic on his part than actual apathy. As I recall, that was the moment he ran. But sorry, I should not have derailed Vivienne's thread with that tangent.

I figured that Varric provided a bit of foreshadowing when he told Vivienne how she's the villain in a trilogy so that's why I get the sense we'll see more of her

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 1, 2017 8:04:33 GMT

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Post by cloud9 on Mar 1, 2017 8:04:33 GMT

That is why they should've created a backstory of why she's the person that she is like why Morrigan is always mean, selfish, and callous because of how Flemeth raised her harshly. Most female characters have a backstory except her and I wonder why they never did. The writers are a bit conspicuous if you ask me.

I always figured the reason why she's such a, well, total bitch, was because she's been a part of the Orlesian court for so long. Orlais is basically French Westeros after all.

Seriously Orlais is like some nightmare realm that turns everyone who lives their into an asshole. Blackwall murdered children to rise up in the Game. Sera's homicidal hatred of nobles was probably born in Orlais. And Leliana was a heartless assassin for a while she was growing up there.

I think there is more to it than that it's part of it but not the main reason why and I think the reason why they never provide a backstory for Vivienne is because it's a racial issue.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 4, 2017 21:16:36 GMT Catilina and opuspace like this

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Post by xerrai on Mar 4, 2017 21:16:36 GMT

Mar 1, 2017 8:04:33 GMT cloud9 said:

I always figured the reason why she's such a, well, total bitch, was because she's been a part of the Orlesian court for so long. Orlais is basically French Westeros after all.

Seriously Orlais is like some nightmare realm that turns everyone who lives their into an asshole. Blackwall murdered children to rise up in the Game. Sera's homicidal hatred of nobles was probably born in Orlais. And Leliana was a heartless assassin for a while she was growing up there.

I think there is more to it than that it's part of it but not the main reason why and I think the reason why they never provide a backstory for Vivienne is because it's a racial issue.

I don' think its too tied to race. I mean, racial bias does still exist to an extent in the game (though its mainly tied to ethnicity and country of origin and not necessarily the color of one's skin). But Circle life in general tends to ignore things like race and country of origin. It's part of why elves are treated more equally in the Circle than anywhere else (mostly). So from the time she was introduced to the Circle at a very young age and being introduced to Orlais outside of the Circle, I don't think race would be too much of an issue for her.
That being said, it possibly was an issue in the time before she was introduced to thee Circle, but I have a feeling it would be mostly tied to the social class (poor to middle class merchants) or the religious values (most Rivainians are either Qunari converts or pantheists) of her parents as opposed to being treated differently on account of their race.

Apart from how they relate to Orlesian politics, Vivienne and her opinions are almost never about race or origin, but about the treatment of mages and how they should be managed. Which most likely means that race is not too big of a deal for her. The only time when it was an issue was when Cole revealed that a noble said something derisive behind her back about it. But that's about it. But seeing as how she is primarily concerned with her ambition(s) and the treatment of mages, I am inclined to believe that her backstory has more to do with her personal experience with magic prior to entering the Circle.

Vivienne primarily believes in the old order of Circles because she believes mages cannot hope to live comfortably without them, and that many will abuse their freedom to harm others. So I am inclined to believe that at some point in her childhood she either saw the consequences of abusive magic or went through something that made her afraid to live as a mage outside the Circle.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 4, 2017 22:04:49 GMT opuspace likes this

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Post by shechinah on Mar 4, 2017 22:04:49 GMT

That is why they should've created a backstory of why she's the person that she is like why Morrigan is always mean, selfish, and callous because of how Flemeth raised her harshly. Most female characters have a backstory except her and I wonder why they never did. The writers are a bit conspicuous if you ask me.

Vivienne does have a backstory and you do get a sense of how she is the way that she is: it is just not something that she tells you because it would not fit with her character to do so, in my opinion. In my experience, you can think of it like clues that you piece together from things such as Cole's readings of her during party banter and other interactions as well knowledge about Orlesian mind games.

Vivienne does not wear who she is and what she's feeling on her sleeve like others might. Her showing grief, vulnerability, at the duke's bedside is an indication of how affected she was by it all. It was a rare case of her setting down the mask that she always wears before others.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 4, 2017 22:25:21 GMT opuspace likes this

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Post by shechinah on Mar 4, 2017 22:25:21 GMT

Yeah, a few people have brought this up but as character she feels to me to be somewhat underdeveloped. That could just be my Pro-Mage bias but besides her relationship with that noble and her Pro-Circle and Pro-Circle views there just doesn't seem to much to her.

Honestly, I really do wish there were more scenes with her letting that Iron Lady persona down giving her more humanity that would have made more engaging. Also her outright disdain for peasants and the mage rebels is a bit much. I mean, for fuck sake, even Sera can at least feel bad when elven servants get horribly murdered but Vivvy just says its all part of Game and sweeps it under the rug as if nothing important happened. Oh, and that disapproval scene of hers was just childish and beneath her.

Regardless, though I still did like her being in Inquisition if only to contribute to a diverse cast of weirdos.

Vivienne does have her softer moments. One that immediately springs to mind is her reaction to seeing what happened to the Tranquil upon discovering the skulls in the Redcliffe house by the lake. This makes her somewhat of an anomaly like Wynne and Minaeve as mages tend to be uncomfortable around Tranquil or indifferent towards them even not seeing people as people anymore. Some are even outright abusive towards them according to Minaeve and, I think, as said by the Tranquil merchant in the Kirkwall Circle.

It's been a while since I've played as I haven't had much time to do so but I do recall more moments.

I think her lack of sympathy towards the rebel mages comes from how she view them as incompetent in trying to accomplish their goals and ultimately ending up so far off from it that they are selling themselves into slavery. It's an impression I've gotten based on something she says about them in Haven and the poor timing of their rebellion. There is also this bit of banter with Cole that suggests she didn't have pleasent experiences with some of the rebelling mages:

Cole: "A sour smell in the Tower library, rotten meat and ashes. Too quiet without the apprentices. Something crunches underfoot. Burned finger bones glitter in the ash like pearls. Ice in my veins. The archivist... what was her name?"
Vivienne: "Get. Out."
Cole: "Why did they kill her? She was just like them!"
Vivienne: "They "helped" her. Just like you did. Anyone who wouldn't fight for freedom was "freed" by fire and lightning. Stay out of my thoughts demon. My memories are my own."

While I do tend to bring Vivienne to the Winter Palace, I cannot rememer the exact tone and choice of words she uses when discovering the bodies but I do recall a piece of banter she has with Cassandra where in Viviennue basically notes that everybody is a part of the Game no matter their opinion of it and desire to be in it. That may be what she means when she says it's all part of the Game. Again, can't remember the dialogue and tone she has about the murdered servants so I may be mistaken and it might just be her cold or desensitized to it.

Last Edit: Mar 4, 2017 22:46:51 GMT by shechinah

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 6, 2017 7:46:26 GMT via mobile

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Post by cloud9 on Mar 6, 2017 7:46:26 GMT

Mar 4, 2017 21:16:36 GMT xerrai said:

Mar 1, 2017 8:04:33 GMT cloud9 said:

I think there is more to it than that it's part of it but not the main reason why and I think the reason why they never provide a backstory for Vivienne is because it's a racial issue.

I don' think its too tied to race. I mean, racial bias does still exist to an extent in the game (though its mainly tied to ethnicity and country of origin and not necessarily the color of one's skin). But Circle life in general tends to ignore things like race and country of origin. It's part of why elves are treated more equally in the Circle than anywhere else (mostly). So from the time she was introduced to the Circle at a very young age and being introduced to Orlais outside of the Circle, I don't think race would be too much of an issue for her.
That being said, it possibly was an issue in the time before she was introduced to thee Circle, but I have a feeling it would be mostly tied to the social class (poor to middle class merchants) or the religious values (most Rivainians are either Qunari converts or pantheists) of her parents as opposed to being treated differently on account of their race.

Apart from how they relate to Orlesian politics, Vivienne and her opinions are almost never about race or origin, but about the treatment of mages and how they should be managed. Which most likely means that race is not too big of a deal for her. The only time when it was an issue was when Cole revealed that a noble said something derisive behind her back about it. But that's about it. But seeing as how she is primarily concerned with her ambition(s) and the treatment of mages, I am inclined to believe that her backstory has more to do with her personal experience with magic prior to entering the Circle.

Vivienne primarily believes in the old order of Circles because she believes mages cannot hope to live comfortably without them, and that many will abuse their freedom to harm others. So I am inclined to believe that at some point in her childhood she either saw the consequences of abusive magic or went through something that made her afraid to live as a mage outside the Circle.

Then why they never wrote it in the game in the first place? It's like they're incompetent and unwilling to humanize Vivienne it's like they just made her just to be an unpleasant, callous, and a mean person without knowing why she's that way. The writers are getting pretty stupid.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 6, 2017 7:51:30 GMT via mobile

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Post by cloud9 on Mar 6, 2017 7:51:30 GMT

Mar 4, 2017 22:04:49 GMT shechinah said:

That is why they should've created a backstory of why she's the person that she is like why Morrigan is always mean, selfish, and callous because of how Flemeth raised her harshly. Most female characters have a backstory except her and I wonder why they never did. The writers are a bit conspicuous if you ask me.

Vivienne does have a backstory and you do get a sense of how she is the way that she is: it is just not something that she tells you because it would not fit with her character to do so, in my opinion. In my experience, you can think of it like clues that you piece together from things such as Cole's readings of her during party banter and other interactions as well knowledge about Orlesian mind games.

Vivienne does not wear who she is and what she's feeling on her sleeve like others might. Her showing grief, vulnerability, at the duke's bedside is an indication of how affected she was by it all. It was a rare case of her setting down the mask that she always wears before others.

No she doesn't have a back story just bits and pieces. I want to know what really happened to her and I want to hear directly from her. Not Cole.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 6, 2017 8:06:12 GMT

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Post by shechinah on Mar 6, 2017 8:06:12 GMT

Mar 4, 2017 22:04:49 GMT shechinah said:

...

No she doesn't have a back story just bits and pieces. I want to know what really happened to her and I want to hear directly from her. Not Cole.

I disagree about her not having a backstory.

What is it that you want Vivienne personally to tell you that you think she'd be interested in talking about and why do you think she'd be the kind of person who'd talk about it?

Last Edit: Mar 6, 2017 8:07:11 GMT by shechinah

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 6, 2017 17:50:49 GMT via mobile

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Post by cloud9 on Mar 6, 2017 17:50:49 GMT

Mar 6, 2017 8:06:12 GMT shechinah said:

No she doesn't have a back story just bits and pieces. I want to know what really happened to her and I want to hear directly from her. Not Cole.

I disagree about her not having a backstory.

What is it that you want Vivienne personally to tell you that you think she'd be interested in talking about and why do you think she'd be the kind of person who'd talk about it?

I think this is bothering you that I want to know her better and every female character has a story except her and that should ring some bells. And the writers set it all up for not for her to tell her story anyways. So there.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 6, 2017 18:17:14 GMT opuspace likes this

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Post by shechinah on Mar 6, 2017 18:17:14 GMT

Mar 6, 2017 17:50:49 GMT cloud9 said:

Mar 6, 2017 8:06:12 GMT shechinah said:

I disagree about her not having a backstory.

What is it that you want Vivienne personally to tell you that you think she'd be interested in talking about and why do you think she'd be the kind of person who'd talk about it?

I think this is bothering you that I want to know her better and every female character has a story except her and that should ring some bells. And the writers set it all up for not for her to tell her story anyways. So there.

I honestly have no idea what bells should be ringing and why you think this would be bothering me. I thought we were discussing something about Vivienne's character like our different interpretations of her character and what said interpretations were based on. This is Vivienne discussion thread afterall. Based on what I've seen in the game, I do not interpret Vivienne's character as being one that is inclined to discuss her personal life and I was wondering why you interpreted her character as being so inclined.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 6, 2017 18:23:08 GMT

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Post by Catilina on Mar 6, 2017 18:23:08 GMT

Mar 4, 2017 22:04:49 GMT shechinah said:

Vivienne does have a backstory and you do get a sense of how she is the way that she is: it is just not something that she tells you because it would not fit with her character to do so, in my opinion. In my experience, you can think of it like clues that you piece together from things such as Cole's readings of her during party banter and other interactions as well knowledge about Orlesian mind games.

Vivienne does not wear who she is and what she's feeling on her sleeve like others might. Her showing grief, vulnerability, at the duke's bedside is an indication of how affected she was by it all. It was a rare case of her setting down the mask that she always wears before others.

No she doesn't have a back story just bits and pieces. I want to know what really happened to her and I want to hear directly from her. Not Cole.

She wears a mask because she wants to wear a mask. She doesn't want to befriend. This is his story. Background? She have background, and this is the CIRCLE. The Circle is wrong. Crashes people's soul, and Vivienne is a good example of it.

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 6, 2017 18:26:31 GMT

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Post by Catilina on Mar 6, 2017 18:26:31 GMT

Mar 6, 2017 18:17:14 GMT shechinah said:

Mar 6, 2017 17:50:49 GMT cloud9 said:

I think this is bothering you that I want to know her better and every female character has a story except her and that should ring some bells. And the writers set it all up for not for her to tell her story anyways. So there.

I honestly have no idea what bells should be ringing and why you think this would be bothering me. I thought we were discussing something about Vivienne's character like our different interpretations of her character and what said interpretations were based on. This is Vivienne discussion thread afterall. Based on what I've seen in the game, I do not interpret Vivienne's character as being one that is inclined to discuss her personal life and I was wondering why you interpreted her character as being so inclined.

Do not bother, he just wants to hear that Bioware racist and misogynist, especially against the black women. You can not convince him.

Last Edit: Mar 6, 2017 18:27:03 GMT by Catilina

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"I Always Have Time For You, My Dear" (Vivienne Discussion) Mar 6, 2017 19:29:00 GMT via mobile

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Post by cloud9 on Mar 6, 2017 19:29:00 GMT

Mar 6, 2017 18:23:08 GMT Catilina said: