MrGDL87
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Post by MrGDL87 on Aug 4, 2016 12:32:04 GMT
I'm surprised there's no Vivienne thread yet! What blasphemy is this?
Here's a thread to discuss the character of Vivienne, whether you love or hate her feel free to post.

Personally, she is my favourite character in all the Bioware games I've played and there are a number of reasons for this. The first reason is her pro-circle stance as a mage. We haven't had a companion who gives a logical and rational argument for supporting the Circle system before (well we had Wynne, I suppose but she was a lot more passive (I haven't read Asunder so I don't know how Wynne was portrayed there but in DAO she was pro-circle but wasn't as opinionated as Vivienne in this regard)).
I would disagree with anyone who says that Vivienne wants to keep the mages subdued in Circle 'prisons'. Vivienne acknowledges that there are abuses of power with the current system but it is better to fix the current system rather than create new problems with a new system. Vivienne is also a character that supports both mages and Templars and see the worth of both sides (which is rare for a companion). I don't think Vivienne is totally against mage freedom but it should be a gradual change rather than instantaneous.
Spoiler for the end of Inquisition: If she is Divine, she grants more freedoms to the mages and even goes as far as creating a College, so she does care about her fellow mages. If she didn't then she could have just sat there as Divine and done nothing. Overall I think Vivienne as a Divine could work. She restores the institutions of the Circle, Templars and Chantry and she is familiar on how they operate so she knows what needs improving. I believe the Circle system can work and it is useful in training mages. This system needs rational and sane people on both the mages and Templars side to prevent incidents like Kirkwall. The Circles must have been doing something right to survive for centuries. Vivienne has a strong influence on the Templars and this can be viewed as a good thing. The Templar reputation among the faithful will be at an all time low because they have just rebelled against the Chantry. So Vivienne will need to be seen as being in control to restore this lost confidence. She has them on a tight leash so if there is a faulty Templar 'tool' then she will replace it. She also has experience of being a mage in the Circle and will be the first Divine what has had first hand experience of the system. Vivienne as a Divine could become an inspiration to the mages and the faithful (because she would be a bridging connection between the two) and this consequently could change people's view on mages as a whole. If public perception of mages is more favourable then Vivienne in theory can grant more freedoms in the future.
[/spoiler]
I've also read that some people in the past, think she was just handed her privileged position on a plate (or even slept her way to the top ). Some people don't like her personality and that's fine as everyone has their own preferences but I don't believe that Vivienne was handed power on a plate because she would need to play The Game extra hard just through being an outsider (non-orlesian). She is ambitious but this can be viewed as a positive because it shows she works hard and is motivated to achieve her goals. However, there were times when I thought her character could have been better utilised such as having a larger role in the Winter Palace quest. Anyway no-one should be shocked about Vivienne's opinions because she tells you her Circle stance from the outset. I like the fact that she is resolute in her beliefs and is not influenced by the inquisitor/anyone else. Vivienne can come across as self-serving and arrogant and this is due to the Orlesian culture. She needs to keep up appearances in order to not look weak and maintain her reputation. However, her true inner feelings are sometimes shown and it shows a softer side. For example, Vivienne is the only companion to ask the inquisitor how they were feeling after Adamant and the Well. She also gives approval if you save the people at Haven so she does show concern about other's feelings. Vivienne could have easily sat back in the palace but decided to join the inquisitor to be proactive and fight for what she believes in.
Furthermore, mages wouldn't be locked away in the Circle. Vivienne says that permission from the First Enchanter is needed to leave the Circle. I don't know how often this permission was granted but the important fact is that such a permission exists. Therefore, Vivienne isn't a hypocrite because she's taking advantage of existing rules.
The most convincing argument against Vivienne would be disliking her due to her personality or she is too conservative in her reforms (although this is still speculation as the reforms weren't given in detail).
I usually ally with the Templars so my views are based on this. I think I've rambled too much about this
Anyway... the second reason for loving Vivienne so much is Indira Varma's voice. Third Reason is she's a fashionable companion. Reason 4... Spa day.
We probably won't see Vivienne again but I'm hopeful of some passing comments about her in any future instalments.
Feel free to post in this thread to praise Vivienne or to call her a bitch, I don't mind
[/p][/p]
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davesin
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Post by davesin on Aug 4, 2016 13:29:25 GMT
The only thing I disliked about Vivienne is that although she's portrayed as a manipulator and one of the best players of The Game... you can't actually see it in-game***. There are no political benefits of having her in party. She doesn't show anything of her power until Trespasser (since she's able to re-create circle of magi - even if she's NOT a Divine; quite a success, I give her that, but we don't learn about it until the epilogue).
*** Well, that can be also said about any character from The Masked Empire, I know.
Anyway, it was really nice to meet and talk to a normal mage. Not some terrorist... or an abomination... or both.
And she has nice hat.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 4, 2016 13:32:15 GMT
When I first saw a picture of her I thought she was a female qunari... I was little disappointed when I realized that was just her hat.
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 4, 2016 13:32:53 GMT
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 4, 2016 13:59:06 GMT
I know she's not on everyone's favorites list, but Vivienne is my Divine of choice, I think. My Lavellan is definitely friends with her. Haven't decided on my Adaar, yet.
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 4, 2016 14:04:53 GMT
I love Vivienne. She's ballsy and is 100% allowed to step on me anytime she pleases.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 4, 2016 15:54:31 GMT
The only thing I disliked about Vivienne is that although she's portrayed as a manipulator and one of the best players of The Game... you can't actually see it in-game***. There are no political benefits of having her in party. She doesn't show anything of her power until Trespasser (since she's able to re-create circle of magi - even if she's NOT a Divine; quite a success, I give her that, but we don't learn about it until the epilogue). *** Well, that can be also said about any character from The Masked Empire, I know. Anyway, it was really nice to meet and talk to a normal mage. Not some terrorist... or an abomination... or both. And she has nice hat. She have bad manners. Arrogant. Affected. ("Oh darling you looks terrible...") And she is a devoted Templar. Maybe not an evil-kind, but she accept the tranquility and the jaihouse-Circles. If I need to like a Templar, I prefer Cullen. At least he have better manners (he do not call everybody: darling... brrr...) and sexier... Good point: she have humour (sometimes). I like her put in my group with Cole for example. And still have fancy hat. (Too bad, then I less care about it, like Dorian.)
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Nimlowyn
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“Literature and art are never created for scholars but for a universal audience." - Camille Paglia
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Post by Nimlowyn on Aug 4, 2016 16:36:55 GMT
Two years later and I still haven't decided how I feel about Vivienne. She's been friends with all my Inquisitors, and particularly with my elven mage, it felt like a ninja friendship. (My Lavellan was like...okay? Their relationship felt very false). I've taken her out in the field sometimes, and on a mission or two, but by and large she's stayed at Skyhold. I'm currently playing an Adaar who genuinely appreciates her and she'll be more of a mainstay in my party. Perhaps then I can reply to this poll. 
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Post by cespar on Aug 4, 2016 18:38:36 GMT
Of course I've to show my support for the fabulous Vivienne. My Cadash always found Vivienne to be one of his best friends. Even if he doesn't agree with her about everything, they still share similar beliefs about the world. Despite Cadash not being that familiar about Circles, he was able to understand and form his own opinion, because of Lady Vivienne.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 4, 2016 20:15:22 GMT
Two years later and I still haven't decided how I feel about Vivienne. She's been friends with all my Inquisitors, and particularly with my elven mage, it felt like a ninja friendship. (My Lavellan was like...okay? Their relationship felt very false). For characters like Vivienne I wish rivalry from DA2 had remained. I always try to help Vivienne cure her Duke and feel sympathy for her loss, but other than that my canon Lavellan and her hardly get along. They simply believe in completely opposite things when it comes to magic and mages. It's sort of weird that the Keep claims they are friends... I never felt like that was true (although it was nice to go to spa with her in Trespasser)
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Post by Reznore on Aug 4, 2016 22:18:07 GMT
I ...don't know how I feel about Vivienne. It's like I like her but then I don't. I can be very very diplomatic but sometimes I have to be blunt , and when there's the Divine talk with her , and she's promoting herself sneakily.Arghghghgg.You can't say "I know what you're doing , woman". So this was very frustrating for me.
But then of course "spa day" , and if you romance Dorian , she's supportive in her own way , and I had Divine Cassandra with free mages , so there were some issues. But in Trespasser Vivienne swoop in and scare everyone into submission.So she made my epilogue better.
So yeah. She is an interesting character.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Aug 5, 2016 1:42:23 GMT
I can't stand her. She's rude. She's arrogant. She's an opportunist. She gets along with none of the other companions, as far as I can tell. She doesn't really add anything politically, which would be the only reason I'd keep her around.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 5, 2016 1:44:20 GMT
My biggest issue with her is the dear and darling thing. Otherwise she's a good character
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Post by fraggle on Aug 5, 2016 12:21:12 GMT
I like her snarky comments, her and Bull together was a lot of fun in my last run. After I read your Spoiler about her being Divine, I will try her out next time I play I think she's a well written character because people actually bring up the energy to hate her. If she'd be just boring people wouldn't care, but they do, just so they can hate her. Or love her, of course
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 6, 2016 13:37:33 GMT
I was rather surprised at the Chantry voting in a mage at all as Divine, so it came as rather a shock on my play through when they did. Still I was surprised when people said she was the conservative, status quo option because to my mind that was Cassandra, with her limited reforms. Having Vivienne seems just as radical as having Leliana as Divine, just in a different way.
Certainly the outlook for the independent College of Enchanters seems better under Divine Vivienne who is magnanimous towards them, rather than under Divine Cassandra where they are terrified of Grand Enchanter Vivienne, head of the Circle, but she is merciful towards them as a favour to Divine Cassandra. It seemed odd to me that the best outcome for mages was for me to have conscripted them and then get Divine Leliana, because the Bright Hand seemed most confident in that scenario and simply able to choose whether they wished to rejoin the Vivienne and her loyalist mages or go it alone as a secular institution, compared with mages who had been allies where Vivienne seemed much more of a threat. One thing, though, that did give me pause was that at the end of Trespasser the epilogue says that eventually Cassandra refuses to work with Vivienne as Divine because she is perverting the Chant of Light. This seems surprising considering she is willing to work with a hardened Leliana, who makes the halls of the Chantry run with blood. So what do you suppose are Cassandra's specific objections to Vivienne as Divine?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 14:03:01 GMT
I was rather surprised at the Chantry voting in a mage at all as Divine, so it came as rather a shock on my play through when they did. Still I was surprised when people said she was the conservative, status quo option because to my mind that was Cassandra, with her limited reforms. Having Vivienne seems just as radical as having Leliana as Divine, just in a different way.
Certainly the outlook for the independent College of Enchanters seems better under Divine Vivienne who is magnanimous towards them, rather than under Divine Cassandra where they are terrified of Grand Enchanter Vivienne, head of the Circle, but she is merciful towards them as a favour to Divine Cassandra. It seemed odd to me that the best outcome for mages was for me to have conscripted them and then get Divine Leliana, because the Bright Hand seemed most confident in that scenario and simply able to choose whether they wished to rejoin the Vivienne and her loyalist mages or go it alone as a secular institution, compared with mages who had been allies where Vivienne seemed much more of a threat. One thing, though, that did give me pause was that at the end of Trespasser the epilogue says that eventually Cassandra refuses to work with Vivienne as Divine because she is perverting the Chant of Light. This seems surprising considering she is willing to work with a hardened Leliana, who makes the halls of the Chantry run with blood. So what do you suppose are Cassandra's specific objections to Vivienne as Divine?
I think that she called her "darling" and/or "my dear" ...
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Post by opuspace on Aug 6, 2016 14:49:50 GMT
Has anyone else found themselves liking Vivienne despite her disapproval of nearly everything your Inquisitor did? Sure, we didn't see eye to eye, but she did offer solid advice and if she's divine, she does remember the mages who cooperate with the system. If I had to critique her, I'd say she's vulnerable to underestimating individuals and being a bit too controlling. It's served her well though, and she's overcome a lot of obstacles. I'd have been curious to see what she'd do in Kirkwall. Money's on her pimp slapping both Meredith and Orsino, going after blood mages personally and then getting the Arishok to compliment her authority
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 6, 2016 17:07:25 GMT
One thing, though, that did give me pause was that at the end of Trespasser the epilogue says that eventually Cassandra refuses to work with Vivienne as Divine because she is perverting the Chant of Light. This seems surprising considering she is willing to work with a hardened Leliana, who makes the halls of the Chantry run with blood. So what do you suppose are Cassandra's specific objections to Vivienne as Divine?
I guess she sees that Vivienne uses her position to gain more power for herself and advance her personal goals, rather than serving the people of Thedas or the greater good (which is what Leliana is doing). She is also a mage and given what happened with Cassandra's brother I guess it could be difficult for her to accept a mage as Divine (even though she doesn't seem to have problem with mage Inquisitor).
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Beregond5
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 9, 2016 14:04:56 GMT
Though I don't approve of her desire to bring back the Circles as they were, probably because it means she'll remain a First Enchanter, therefore influential, there are signs that her heart is in the right place. It's not like she wants to force you to agree with her, or manipulates you into doing what she wants; she's actually quite open-minded concerning your opinions. For example, if you say that the Templar/Mage War hurts everyone, she actually approves and agrees with you. She consoles you if you express sadness after Haven that you failed because you didn't save everyone. She even defends Dorian if your inquisitor is romantically involved with him.
Mind you, I hated her the first time I met her, even if she seemed to get along with my quizzie just fine. I guess what I'm trying to say is that she managed to grow on me. XD
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 9, 2016 15:06:09 GMT
Where is the "love to hate her" option in the poll? Lol.... actually I really like her a lot, even though she did have a habit of putting her foot in her mouth sometimes with my canon Quizzy, but it was that part of her personality too that made her a fun character. Her scene in Tresspasser and response to Lavellan about whether she is over Solas had me laughing.
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Post by phoray on Aug 11, 2016 22:56:36 GMT
First game. So hated her.refused to get the Wyvern Heart she was being dodgy about. It was the FIRST time I didn't do a companion side quest, seriously. She was too mean to Cole. I wanted to tear her eyes out. Second game, I wasn't playing with either her or Cole.... she whole heartedly supported Cassandra as Divine; which shocked me into reconsidering her character.
I looked into her a bit more, thought about it... and realized that's she's a frightened woman in a changing world, grasping for the power she once had. She's actually a bit pitiable underneath all that frosty b****; which finally allowed me to see something about her that was sympathetic. She will follow the changing in the wind, if she must- if she can't return the world to it's previous state, she will carve it out with her own hands. The strength of a survivor is as harsh as it is mighty.
I still dislike her, but now I can respect her.
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Post by our_lady_of_darkness on Aug 12, 2016 15:47:01 GMT
I have a lot of respect for her. She's strong-willed, perceptive and quite insightful. There is some darkness to her, but she manages to control it, unlike, for instance, Leliana. Plus, she uses manners as a weapon, I adore her for it.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 13, 2016 20:27:41 GMT
I was rather surprised at the Chantry voting in a mage at all as Divine, so it came as rather a shock on my play through when they did. Still I was surprised when people said she was the conservative, status quo option because to my mind that was Cassandra, with her limited reforms. Having Vivienne seems just as radical as having Leliana as Divine, just in a different way.
One thing, though, that did give me pause was that at the end of Trespasser the epilogue says that eventually Cassandra refuses to work with Vivienne as Divine because she is perverting the Chant of Light. This seems surprising considering she is willing to work with a hardened Leliana, who makes the halls of the Chantry run with blood. So what do you suppose are Cassandra's specific objections to Vivienne as Divine?
For the first part: Cassandra will make reforms that are seen as too radical by the Chantry (giving mages a choice to go back to the Circles whereas the original Chantry would have forced them to go) while Vivienne will reinstate the system back to where it was before hell broke loose. In some ways, Vivienne IS changing the system by ensuring that mages who cooperate achieve higher status than thought possible while keeping the Templars under firmer control. It sounds like she's ruling the Circles as they ought to be in that abuses within the system are being addressed and curbed despite things being returned to the status quo. Cassandra mentioned letting mages take care of the Circle affairs from security, teaching, to taking care that abominations don't run free while keeping the Templars as protecters of villagers instead of being in the Circles themselves (that's my interpretation, not her exact words). As for the last part, while Vivienne will change some things for the better, she IS brutal towards any who don't comply with her policies. She's intolerant of even letting mages be left alone. It's join or die. Vivienne, while I do think she sincerely wants to protect people, is a control freak. Everything must be just so, no ifs, ands, maybes or buts with her. As to why Cassandra will tolerate Leliana over Cassandra, she has worked with Leliana long enough to accept that Leliana's actions as a spy was a necessary evil for the Inquisition. Perhaps Leliana is flexible enough to be understandable if not entirely agreeable on the same policies. Or it's likely that Leliana kept the assassinations secret from Cassandra and she's unaware that a bloody Leliana is going stabbity stab on political opponents. I'm betting a softened Leliana blackmails everyone to agreeing with her instead of murdering them.
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Post by Reznore on Aug 13, 2016 22:13:50 GMT
I think one of the issue between Cassandra and Vivienne might be Cass is a true believer.Leliana even if she has some peculiar views is also a true believer. Vivienne , she pays lip service to the faith , but she sees that as just another weapon in her arsenal. There's some Chantry rules she can naviguate , it's an institution providing orders and she probably likes that.She likes the image of power Andraste or the Divine had. I very much doubt Vivienne stay awake at night wondering about the Maker's mysterious way and how she could serve him the best.
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Post by jtav on Aug 13, 2016 22:37:05 GMT
I think Vivienne believes in the Chant well enough, but she's a politician before anything else. Her as Divine is something like a Renaissance pope. Commissioned great art, made history, but ministering to the faithful wasn't really a priority. Which might be just fine if you're a nonbelieving Inquisitor who doesn't feel strongly about the Circle.
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