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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 13:22:07 GMT
Whenever I try to play this way I end up feeling awful. I just can't help it. I end up feeling overcome with guilt, despite the fact it's just a game.
Killing Wrex on Virmire during my 'worst possible outcome' Mass Effect playthrough was insanely difficult to do, I had to mentally force myself to select the option, and I felt terrible afterward. Yeah, this is me. I (almost) always do one "evil" or "worst-case" playthrough just to see what happens, but even doing that much is always difficult and I feel crappy during/afterwards. It doesn't make much sense when you think about it, because its ultimately just pixels on a screen, no one is being negatively affected by it even in the slightest, so why do we feel bad? Emotions are weird, I guess. I think it comes down to sensitivity. I am pretty sensitive. Overly so in many people's opinions and I share this opinion. I have a hard time playing "bad" or "evil" characters because I feel like I am saying to myself that acting that way is ok, when it very obviously (to me) is not ok. So, when I "play bad" a part of me is fearful and uncomfortable, concerned that I have graduated to a hotter circle of hell on judgment day. Because I'm a little too sensitive. I admit to being scared of people that prefer playing bad, or unironically supporting the Galactic Empire. If you are just having fun, have fun, but keep it real! So this plays into bias as well - I don't believe you can really be "good" if you prefer a fantasy world where you are evil. That sort of inconsistency doesn't fit into what my brain thinks is normal or healthy. Practice makes perfect.
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 9, 2023 17:11:17 GMT
Being likewise a sensitive soul, I'll say games are really bad are encouraging players towards evil. Why do folks usually do evil stuff in real life? Some common reasons: - They do not think what they're doing is evil.
- They stand to gain something by doing evil, more so than from the alternative.
- The believe the evil stuff they're doing is justifiable as it serves some greater good, a.k.a. utilitarian ethics.
Taking Bioware games as an example, evil actions are usually signposted or so unsubtle that they might as well be, the rewards for doing evil are minimal at best and the good path often has superior ones, and doing the obviously virtuous thing nearly always turns out for the better. So in Mass Effect, for example, we've got clearly marked Renegade options. They doesn't bring any material benefits to the player and actually just makes people dislike you, and even though the Renegade philosophy (insofar as there is one) is that the end justifies the means, Paragon consistently gets you better results. Hence there is no temptation to do evil in ME, beyond a merely aesthetic choice.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 10, 2023 0:22:03 GMT
Yeah, this is me. I (almost) always do one "evil" or "worst-case" playthrough just to see what happens, but even doing that much is always difficult and I feel crappy during/afterwards. It doesn't make much sense when you think about it, because its ultimately just pixels on a screen, no one is being negatively affected by it even in the slightest, so why do we feel bad? Emotions are weird, I guess. I think it comes down to sensitivity. I am pretty sensitive. Overly so in many people's opinions and I share this opinion. I have a hard time playing "bad" or "evil" characters because I feel like I am saying to myself that acting that way is ok, when it very obviously (to me) is not ok. So, when I "play bad" a part of me is fearful and uncomfortable, concerned that I have graduated to a hotter circle of hell on judgment day. Because I'm a little too sensitive. I admit to being scared of people that prefer playing bad, or unironically supporting the Galactic Empire. If you are just having fun, have fun, but keep it real! So this plays into bias as well - I don't believe you can really be "good" if you prefer a fantasy world where you are evil. That sort of inconsistency doesn't fit into what my brain thinks is normal or healthy. Practice makes perfect. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: part of me will NEVER understand why so people insist that their PCs *must* be self inserts that reflect their real world beliefs 100%. I always veiw my characters like an author writing a story. Granted, I'm more of a co-writer working within the confines of pre-established choices, but still. If you wrote a book, would your sensitivity prevent you from getting into your antagonists' heads to explore why they do what they do? If one of your responses is "I DON'T CARE how evil people justify themselves", how is that a fully realized, three dimensional person?
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 10, 2023 0:58:20 GMT
While considering the notion that playing villainous or antiheroic characters must be be sadistic wish fulfillment, I pondered how the reverse could also be true. How a ruthless sociopath that doesn't give a damn about anyone but themselves could easily justify most "good" choices, using ORIGINS as an example:
-Help the city guard in Denerim? Eliminate rivals and gain good PR.
-Exorcise Connor? Gain greater influence with a powerful Arl in my debt.
-Preserve the Urn of Sacred Ashes? The Dicsiples of Andraste are a bunch of unreliable lunatics, and I could try to get more ashes for my purposes later.
-Destroy the Anvil of the Void? A racist human or elven, or vengeful Castless Warden might not want Orzimmar to reclaim lost power.
-Save the mages? A way of bolstering your forces, since you still have the Templars as backup.
-Cure the Werewolves? They might be too powerful to control, and it would be better to have two groups (Dalish and former werewolves) indebted to you. Plus, Lanaya could be easier to manipulate that Zathrian.
Kill Loghain? Revenge, and take out a rival.
Alistair rules alone? Easier to play puppetmaster.
So you can just as likely argue that the good choices are there to stroke the egos of players who want to be worshipped. Is that fair? No more so than the notion that desperate and ruthless choices are *only* there to indulge assholes, and not create complex and diverse stories.
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Post by xerrai on Feb 10, 2023 0:59:37 GMT
[...] It doesn't make much sense when you think about it, because its ultimately just pixels on a screen, no one is being negatively affected by it even in the slightest, so why do we feel bad? Emotions are weird, I guess. [...] I admit to being scared of people that prefer playing bad, or unironically supporting the Galactic Empire. If you are just having fun, have fun, but keep it real! So this plays into bias as well - I don't believe you can really be "good" if you prefer a fantasy world where you are evil. That sort of inconsistency doesn't fit into what my brain thinks is normal or healthy. I mean, if that's how you choose to digest games then good for you. I'm sure it allows certain story points to hit differently and allow certain people to enjoy the medium to the fullest extent that is appropriate to them. But I'd argue that for others, being inconsistent is exactly the point. Some of us don't want to "keep it real" all the time on account of that being, well, boring and potentially stifling. And being boring is the one sin the capricious game consumer cannot forgive.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 10, 2023 1:05:26 GMT
[...] I admit to being scared of people that prefer playing bad, or unironically supporting the Galactic Empire. If you are just having fun, have fun, but keep it real! So this plays into bias as well - I don't believe you can really be "good" if you prefer a fantasy world where you are evil. That sort of inconsistency doesn't fit into what my brain thinks is normal or healthy. I mean, if that's how you choose to digest games then good for you. I'm sure it allows certain story points to hit differently and allow certain people to enjoy the medium to the fullest extent that is appropriate to them. But I'd argue that for others, being inconsistent is exactly the point. Some of us don't want to "keep it real" all the time on account of that being, well, boring and potentially stifling. And being boring is the one sin the capricious game consumer cannot forgive. Not to mention how "being scared of evil roleplay" can lead to lazy assumptions about people. Or worse, Thought Crime...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2023 17:19:54 GMT
I think it comes down to sensitivity. I am pretty sensitive. Overly so in many people's opinions and I share this opinion. I have a hard time playing "bad" or "evil" characters because I feel like I am saying to myself that acting that way is ok, when it very obviously (to me) is not ok. So, when I "play bad" a part of me is fearful and uncomfortable, concerned that I have graduated to a hotter circle of hell on judgment day. Because I'm a little too sensitive. I admit to being scared of people that prefer playing bad, or unironically supporting the Galactic Empire. If you are just having fun, have fun, but keep it real! So this plays into bias as well - I don't believe you can really be "good" if you prefer a fantasy world where you are evil. That sort of inconsistency doesn't fit into what my brain thinks is normal or healthy. Practice makes perfect. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: part of me will NEVER understand why so people insist that their PCs *must* be self inserts that reflect their real world beliefs 100%. I always veiw my characters like an author writing a story. Granted, I'm more of a co-writer working within the confines of pre-established choices, but still. If you wrote a book, would your sensitivity prevent you from getting into your antagonists' heads to explore why they do what they do? If one of your responses is "I DON'T CARE how evil people justify themselves", how is that a fully realized, three dimensional person? How am I not myself? I didn't say I was doing it right, or that anyone else was doing it wrong. My entire post was a personal anecdote, not a recipe for global harmony. I cannot separate who I am from anything. This either makes me genuine or too rigid for this world. I don't care either way anymore
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 11, 2023 17:59:39 GMT
I don't see offing Wrex on Virmire as evil. We already saw what happened with a krogan population boom, and the krogan didn't have the excuse the rachni had of being corrupted by Reapers. I have Ashley shoot him, though. That is her job.
Plus, it actually makes the saga much more deep with Wreav in charge.
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 11, 2023 18:02:13 GMT
While considering the notion that playing villainous or antiheroic characters must be be sadistic wish fulfillment, I pondered how the reverse could also be true. How a ruthless sociopath that doesn't give a damn about anyone but themselves could easily justify most "good" choices, using ORIGINS as an example: -Help the city guard in Denerim? Eliminate rivals and gain good PR. -Exorcise Connor? Gain greater influence with a powerful Arl in my debt. -Preserve the Urn of Sacred Ashes? The Dicsiples of Andraste are a bunch of unreliable lunatics, and I could try to get more ashes for my purposes later. -Destroy the Anvil of the Void? A racist human or elven, or vengeful Castless Warden might not want Orzimmar to reclaim lost power. -Save the mages? A way of bolstering your forces, since you still have the Templars as backup. -Cure the Werewolves? They might be too powerful to control, and it would be better to have two groups (Dalish and former werewolves) indebted to you. Plus, Lanaya could be easier to manipulate that Zathrian. Kill Loghain? Revenge, and take out a rival. Alistair rules alone? Easier to play puppetmaster. So you can just as likely argue that the good choices are there to stroke the egos of players who want to be worshipped. Is that fair? No more so than the notion that desperate and ruthless choices are *only* there to indulge assholes, and not create complex and diverse stories. I'll give you some more for the Anvil. 1.) Branka's utterly batshit. You can't trust her with that kind of power. 2.) We don't understand how the Anvil truly works. When it comes to ancient and powerful artifacts, taking time to learn them is prudent. This couples with... 3.) We can only get this far into the Deep Roads because the Blight is happening. Once it's over, we won't be able to use it even if we did understand its power.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 13, 2023 18:47:29 GMT
It's genuinely difficult for me. I'm such a softie. I always default to playing good characters.
Currently playing Pathfinder and contemplating how I'll play a Demon playthrough. Struggling.
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 14, 2023 13:30:05 GMT
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: part of me will NEVER understand why so people insist that their PCs *must* be self inserts that reflect their real world beliefs 100%. I always veiw my characters like an author writing a story. Granted, I'm more of a co-writer working within the confines of pre-established choices, but still. If you wrote a book, would your sensitivity prevent you from getting into your antagonists' heads to explore why they do what they do? If one of your responses is "I DON'T CARE how evil people justify themselves", how is that a fully realized, three dimensional person? I don't play self-inserts—I don't think there's a single RPG where I could see myself in the protagonist's shoes—, but I still don't enjoy playing evil characters, or rather the types of evil characters RPGs usually want you to play. Puppy-kicking megalomanicas, ruthless machiavellian schemers, and the like are rather unappealing archetypes for me even in other forms of fiction. When a game asks me to inhabit a different moral framework altogether, I can manage that to a large extent. I can raid defenseless monasteries in Expeditions: Viking or execute peasant rebels in Crusader Kings because that's what the people those games are about would have done historically, and playing twenty-first century people in period dress kind of defeats the purpose of engaging with a historical RPG with claims to authenticity. But my absolute favorite type of character to play in RPGs is heroic ones, but specifically in games where being heroic is as difficult as it ought to be. If video games have a problem with the evil path not being alluring enough, they also have one with the good path being too easy. To paraphrase one of my favorite books, a hero's not the one who wins, and in fact a hero must be prepared to lose everything.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Feb 14, 2023 20:57:22 GMT
If I play as an "evil" character it's mostly because I'm a extremely foul mood and it's a way for me to be destructive without hurting anyone in real life and/or going to prison for the rest of my life.
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Post by ergates on Feb 16, 2023 17:19:26 GMT
Because possibly if you are not self-inserting then you are role playing a character, putting on the shoes of a different person and acting/thinking as that person would act and think, not as you would think. If you're self-inserting then you are basically adopting the mindset: ' I, the actual person operating the keyboard/controller am standing in the Deep Roads with MY companions and making MY decisions. If you're role-playing a character your are adopting the mindset: ' The Grey Warden is standing in the Deep Roars with their companions, and will make the kind of decisions and actions that are appropriate for that particular character. There isn't really a right or wrong way to play it. Many, many people self-insert but it's not a thing I do. Self-inserting can lead to E/F - Emotional Feedback, which can be pretty bad, maybe not so much in a single player game, but get a bout of E/F when you're role-playing with real people and it can land you in a pretty bad place - It happened to me once.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2023 18:05:28 GMT
I have played the evil character.
I understand acting, and role-playing.
Everyone reads what I wrote selectively.
I primarily self-insert, because that's how I consume fiction - "How would I deal with this?"
It is hilarious to me how my statement triggered some people.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 16, 2023 18:30:23 GMT
I don't see offing Wrex on Virmire as evil. We already saw what happened with a krogan population boom, and the krogan didn't have the excuse the rachni had of being corrupted by Reapers. I have Ashley shoot him, though. That is her job. Plus, it actually makes the saga much more deep with Wreav in charge. I agree. You want to know what else is not evil? Shooting Mordin in the back. The goal is to stop the reapers. When the Salarian dalatross offers help, I take it. Why? Simple. If the reapers aren't stopped, who's left to argue about the choice?
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 19, 2023 16:06:48 GMT
I don't see offing Wrex on Virmire as evil. We already saw what happened with a krogan population boom, and the krogan didn't have the excuse the rachni had of being corrupted by Reapers. I have Ashley shoot him, though. That is her job. Plus, it actually makes the saga much more deep with Wreav in charge. I agree. You want to know what else is not evil? Shooting Mordin in the back. The goal is to stop the reapers. When the Salarian dalatross offers help, I take it. Why? Simple. If the reapers aren't stopped, who's left to argue about the choice? True, I don't think it's evil, although it does suck. However, convincing him is also just as good.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2023 17:33:21 GMT
I don't see offing Wrex on Virmire as evil. We already saw what happened with a krogan population boom, and the krogan didn't have the excuse the rachni had of being corrupted by Reapers. I have Ashley shoot him, though. That is her job. Plus, it actually makes the saga much more deep with Wreav in charge. I agree. You want to know what else is not evil? Shooting Mordin in the back. The goal is to stop the reapers. When the Salarian dalatross offers help, I take it. Why? Simple. If the reapers aren't stopped, who's left to argue about the choice? No Mike, that is actually evil full stop lmao.
You just said the ends justify the means.
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Post by Sharable Horizon on Feb 19, 2023 18:46:09 GMT
I agree. You want to know what else is not evil? Shooting Mordin in the back. The goal is to stop the reapers. When the Salarian dalatross offers help, I take it. Why? Simple. If the reapers aren't stopped, who's left to argue about the choice? No Mike, that is actually evil full stop lmao.
You just said the ends justify the means.
Yup! Damning a whole race just because some racist politician is having a hissy fit is not a good look!
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 19, 2023 19:29:03 GMT
No Mike, that is actually evil full stop lmao.
You just said the ends justify the means.
Yup! Damning a whole race just because some racist politician is having a hissy fit is not a good look! How about damning the galaxy because some racist politician wants to take everything like the krogan do?
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Post by Sharable Horizon on Feb 19, 2023 20:05:37 GMT
Yup! Damning a whole race just because some racist politician is having a hissy fit is not a good look! How about damning the galaxy because some racist politician wants to take everything like the krogan do? You mean Wreav? That fool’s just hot air. Yes the Krogan would definitely have the numbers under his leadership, however they do not have the ships or the resources/facilities on Tuchanka to build them. Don’t forget that the Krogan are dependent on the galaxy at large just to transport their forces to Palaven. In a post reaper war galaxy, they would find themselves even more dependent on the galaxy just to get home. Then they would be under constant scrutiny from not just the old council, but also the alliance and potentially Geth if they survive or even the reapers under the control ending. The Krogan are absolutely not a threat under Wreav’s leadership IMO. Plus. If they somehow DO become a problem, just smack them with the Genophage 2.0.
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Post by Exile Isan on Feb 19, 2023 20:24:15 GMT
I've never played an outright evil character, especially in Dragon Age. In Mass Effect I've played a good portion of the renegade options with a few exception (rachni queen, David Archer), but never full renegade. I don't enjoy being an arse, I don't play these characters like they're saints either, though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2023 22:13:52 GMT
Boo hoo Krogans are too strong we can justify cowardly chemical warfare against them because we are literally too weak to defend ourselves.
This is the hilarity... might makes right, unless someone is mightier than me. Then I get a lawyer or a chemist to do my dirty work.
I welcome my Krogan overlords.
Or as Kratos says... Be better.
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 19, 2023 22:45:58 GMT
How about damning the galaxy because some racist politician wants to take everything like the krogan do? You mean Wreav? That fool’s just hot air. Yes the Krogan would definitely have the numbers under his leadership, however they do not have the ships or the resources/facilities on Tuchanka to build them. Don’t forget that the Krogan are dependent on the galaxy at large just to transport their forces to Palaven. In a post reaper war galaxy, they would find themselves even more dependent on the galaxy just to get home. Then they would be under constant scrutiny from not just the old council, but also the alliance and potentially Geth if they survive or even the reapers under the control ending. The Krogan are absolutely not a threat under Wreav’s leadership IMO. Plus. If they somehow DO become a problem, just smack them with the Genophage 2.0. It sounds like you're expecting Wreav to listen to reason. The endings disprove this assertion.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 28, 2023 19:42:00 GMT
I've never played an outright evil character, especially in Dragon Age. In Mass Effect I've played a good portion of the renegade options with a few exception (rachni queen, David Archer), but never full renegade. I don't enjoy being an arse, I don't play these characters like they're saints either, though. My boy scout Paragon Shepard got pretty "renegade" (Mass Effect 1-style) towards the latter parts of the story as some of his walls started breaking down and the pressure got to him. I loved that BioWare did that.
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Post by Croatsky on Feb 28, 2023 20:07:54 GMT
I wish BioWare could give more options to play as ruthless and/or impulsive protagonists, rather than be evil because it's funny. Give us vile actions because some dipshit deserves it while suffering consequences for it. While at it make it a twist for being more calm and reserved, being more merciful, but making you( both players and protagonist) regret that personally even if it's for some good end goal.
Inquisition and Andromeda went in that direction, thankfully, but MELE reminded me how really bad the early morality system was. Heavily favoring good guy Paragon actions, rarely any consequences. Renegade needs to go full-on evil just for Krogan's arc to give slightly more points toward the "best" ending, points that aren't even crucial and Paragon continued to gain preferential treatment in following arcs. Oh you brainwashed geth heretics? I guess you need to do 2 side missions instead of just 1! Oh geez, what a bad treatment, it's not like I wouldn't play one of the two best side missions in the game.
Meanwhile playing evil in DAO was just comical and only broke BioWare from not wanting to bring the Warden back again. While Hawke, while had amazing personal dynamics, was made irrelevant in grand scheme of things.
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