The Halla Enigma

I kind of just thought they were small for the same reason modern elves are small (at least compared to the sentinels). A combination of a non-magic environment for several years and the sheer difficulty of survival lead to subsequent generations developing traits reliant on small size, limited diet, and speed.

If halla really were completely artificial, they may not have had that many survival skills to begin with, and possibly relied on elvhen caretakers to help sustain them (for comparison, wild fish irl have constantly reached abnormally large sizes when they gain access to human-made feed). So after the fall, when all of those caretaker elves were either killed or forced to fend for themselves, large halla were naturally either pecked off or bred out. After all, I bet a large hulking halla  capable of easily carrying elves and unwilling to run away due to its war training looked mighty appealing to predators. They may have had some difficulty, but I imagine a pack of wolves or a bear could take one out.

This could definitely be an explanation of why the halla had altered since the time of the elven empire. In fact the Veil could even have had an effect on them if they were a magical construct. I'm not too sure about the lack of survival skills though. Whatever creature they were created from must surely have had some survival instincts? Still, I suppose you may have a point about the larger, more aggressive ones being more likely to confront their predators than run away if that is what had been bred into them. In fact it is possible that halla had more than one use back in the empire and were specifically bred for different traits. So the big, strong, aggressive equivalent to warhorses were one strain and the smaller, gentler and calmer equivalent to the multi-purpose workhorse were another. On the whole, the worker peasant elves would be more familiar with the latter and that is what stayed in their stories that were passed down to the Dalish. Whereas the war halla were probably only ridden by the nobility/chosen of the gods and many of them probably died in the civil war.

That then begs the question: why were these abominations of the enemy displayed so prominently in an area that was supposed to be a refuge and repudiation of the false gods? There's also the fact that the writer of the Moldy Journal keeps referring to a male elf and even the brief description makes it sound more like Fen'Harel than Ghil. Assume that The Taken Shape weren't hidden away by Ghil, she'd not likely split up a success like that especially. Fen'Harel on the other hand, might stash away such treasures against a time he would need them. Since the area of the Crossroads in Tresspasser leads to some locations particularly important to him, its at least a guess that has some backing. Did he loot them after he had banished the Evanuris? So many good rabbit hole questions.



That theory on Fen'Harel could still work, but I'm still not sure we have the whole story. I think of everything we see in Trespasser as having been manipulated in front of us by a being known as Lord of Tricksters to be sympathetic toward him. Could the halla statue Strife retrieved been the counterpart to the (Mythal?) red lyrium idol? And how relevant is really anything from Inquisition/Trespasser through the shattered glass of at least two restarts in the game design? More questions than answers I'm afraid. I'm about to see the secret room in the Deep Roads for the first time and I have an alt that's not in Trespasser yet but can wander the Graves with impunity. I want to have a closer work at some of that art...

As always, good talking with you.

I'm assuming you are talking about the ones in the Winter Palace quest? You might be on to something, but I think it is important to remember that the key aspect you pointed out was actually built in after they were repurposed by Celene. To quote the relevant codex:

"He collected carvings of halla—the Dalish beasts of burden sacred to one of their false gods. The statuettes—all the work of Dalish artisans during the Long Walk—were kept in his room in the Winter Palace. When his daughter ascended to the throne, she had them repurposed as keys."

Keep in mind I find it highly unlikely that the Dalish themselves made them as the codex claims. The Long Walk has been noted to be constantly romanticized by Orlesians, and it stretches the imagination to think that the suffering and starving elves actually thought making these elaborate statues was a good idea as opposed to, y'know, something practical like hunting or fixing equipment. I can see the elves making them in commemoration of the Long Walk after it was done with, but not during. But the possibility that they were carried on the Long Walk as pilfered and/or recovered artifacts (likely from Tevinter or some neighboring ruin) is still a possibility too.

But one wonders how they were able to be tampered with so easily by presumably formari to become keys if they were already imbued with magic? Under normal circumstances I would throw out the idea that the whole repurposed thing was a fake info spread by Celene, that they keys were the original elvhen function, but the mere fact the keys open her private quarters, personal vault, and other features of the modern palace all but confirms a certain amount of tampering. In which case, were the original statues genuine magical artifacts? Ones that may have lost their magical potency over time? Or were they just decoration despite being genuinely ancient? Or were they fake replicas that others thought were genuine? Or was I on the money when I theorized they were just commemorative items made by the Dalish with no magical capabilities at all? 

...But for the sake of your argument. Let's say they were genuinely magical, at least at one point. But that the statues were only capable of working in a certain location and become broken when they were tampered with or taken away from that location for an extended period of time. I'm not completely sold on the key function, but it could be that the halla statue that Strife acquired was so valued not because it was an inherently op artifact, but because it was one of the few untampered/working halla statues that were left after years of pilfering and destruction in the area. Kind of like fidning an undamaged eluvian. It was something that was actually fairly commonplace at the time but has a function that is invaluable in modern times. The only difference would be that the artifact was something that was only found in the domain of Ghilan'nan and/or Andruil.

Just about the moldy journal:

"but he says yht would not be as yht was & I said that's evertrue & he laughed lark-like."

I've always thought that as being an indicator that the elf was Solas, since he is known for chuckling.

But to the halla stuff. I think they're important beyond Ghili'nain. In fact I'd argue that whatever they were before, Ghili'nain became known as "Mother of The Halla" because once she became a God, she repurposed and experimented on them to make them hers.

Perhaps as Solas described Cory and his Dragon as a "bond," maybe the ancient elves were bonded to their respective hallas. That bond was then corrupted by Ghili'nain's influence. Based on the sickly paintings, it seems as if more than one elf was bonded to a single halla, turning it into something horrifying. Maybe Ghili'nain was bonded to every halla, controlling them with her whispers.

In any case, I can see their original importance and purpose relating to "bonding," which seems like a special practice based on the power we learn from The Temple of Mythal. Halla statues acting as keys maybe points to "souls" being used as keys, as I'd argue The Old God souls are "keys" to something? Not sure about that one. 

I completely take your point on this but it still begs the question, why use halla statues at all? If it had no future significance, why not use lion statues (that are the sign of Celene's house) or something else specifically Orlesian? I suppose the argument could be that it was Briala that came up with the idea but halla hold no particular significance for her. As a city elf why would she know about halla at all? Felassan preferred to tell stories involving Fen'Harel rather than focus on Dalish lore, since he has no regard for them. Yet, the narrative in Masked Empire does say that if there is one god that Briala identifies with, it is Andruil. Her knowledge of this god only seemed to have come about following her alliance with Felassan, so did he credit her with the survival skills he taught Briala? In any case, it is Ghilan'nain not Andruil that has the association with halla.

Weren't they also in the Temple of Dirthamen? I've been trying to find examples of them on the internet but it is proving somewhat difficult for some reason. There was wall/cave art all over the place in DAI but it is quite a while since I played it and I can't remember exactly where it all was. If there was repetition between elven ruins was this just a case of reuse of materials or pointing to something significant? There is also the strange statue of a squat, fat, ugly figure that looks nothing like an elf that we find in the Knights' Tomb, which is the same image that we encounter in DA2, in particular in the old elven ruin on the top of Sundermount. What about the Claws of Dumat in the Fade and their similarity to designs found in the Ancient Thaig in DA2? Would the design team really just keep reusing material completely oblivious to the impact on people who study such things? Would they just laugh at our gullibility in seeing any significance in them? I would find it very disappointing if that was the case.

I wouldn't worry about that. My mind ranges all over the place from an initial beginning. It has already happened with this thread, which has opened up new trains of thought since we started to exchange ideas. That's why I like it.

You have been warned. I'm a Textomancer specialized in Digression (great skill tree that just never seems to end. Symbol kindof looks like the Wikipedia sphere) I'll get to the other topics you raised first though.



The caution is more general with this as an example but to makeup, another indication I have noticed that at least hints that the halla statues could be some kind of at least residual magic. When you open one of the halla doors, I notice a glowing trigram effect similar to what one sees when a mage casts Energy Barrage, Ice Mine, or Fire Mine. Again, they could have just done that to reuse an effect but they already have all sorts of clunks for a mechanical switch being thrown. The lightshow is just another hint.

I've got several advanced saved games and I'm using alts to explore all the places I remember or think I can find artistic hints. There was indeed a single example of our lizard man in the Temple of Dirthamen, just very hard to see with how dark that environment was. I'll report if I spot him somewhere else as well. No additional clues from the Temple whether it has some sort of significance but I'm pretty sure the four being displayed high on the tower means something. I just don't have a good theory on the what yet.



Interestingly enough, that was a high question on my list. I don't remember seeing them in DA2 though so if you can remember where specifically, I will try to run the appearances down. In DA:I I've only seen them two places. The first aforementioned Din'an Hanin where they appear prominently in the first big hall you enter with multiple Venatori and the Behemoth as well as in the Knight's Tomb itself as a large idol/statue which is really bizarre given that you usually see owl statuary (Falon'Din) there. The other place is with the veilfire sconces in the Sanctuary as part of the first 'Lateral Thinker' puzzle which opens the Secret Armory. Just a wild theory (which I seriously need more proof for), this is a representation of Anaris, one of the Forgotten Ones. My links are still pretty tenuous but first, its ugly compared to the other Evanuris statues. Two, we have a hint that a passphrase followers of Fen'Harel use includes the word Anaris though that may be a generic, not specific noun. Third, the Emerald Knights had a close link to wolves and (probably) Fen'harel so they may also have had a cult to a closely related FO. Fourth, any follower of the Evanuris would have recoiled at such a symbol and therefore might not remain to solve the puzzle. (That whole chamber speaks of secrets inside of riddles to me with the weapons and treasury) I will be keeping a close eye out both in Inquisition and Exodus to see if I get coberating or conflicting data on that thought but I don't have a high degree of confidence right now as you can see, the evidence is pretty thin.



I would not put it past them in darker moments but I don't think they really are that malevolent. They DO probably get a kick out of us more obsessive types. After all, these are the people who put a secret chamber in an already completed, flooding area in an expansion that we could only access after getting a new power later that dropped the lore bomb that goes nuclear only if you've completed another expansion. I just keep in mind that its far easier to grab existing assets if you want an area to look elfy, or Avvar, or, Orleasian, etc. and callbacks to previous games are little love letters to us fans while also not having to redesign everything from scratch. What I look for to separate possible clues from coincidence are rarity and/or prominence and/or repeated relationships. Hope that made sense. I'll be bombarding the thread with more ruminations on lore and possible clues later. Thanks everybody.

A lot depends on whether the Forgotten Ones were actual elves or simply rogue spirits who had adopted rather bazaar forms. If the latter then the similarity between the statues in various locations could be explained by the fact it was the same form adopted by spirits with a similar outlook, just as all generic pride demons look the same. We know the Forbidden ones could shed their form and adopt new ones at will. The Evanuris warn against Fen'Harel doing the same, so it may simply have been an attribute of the more powerful elves. Why would the spirit(s) adopt that grotesque form though? It is rather peculiar if they wanted to encourage others to follow them unless it was part of their rejection of the Evanuris. Also, possibly a disguise to conceal their true identity. Anyway, here is the one in DA2 on Sundermount.   We know Sundermount is said to have been the site of the last stand of the elves against Tevinter.  Were these refugees from the Arlathan Forest or a different group of elves that had been living in the south, may be an enclave of ancient rebels?

Whilst this is a different statue from DAO (and has some similarity to the original design for the Arch-demon) the main thing I wonder about is the fact that it is shown with two sets of arms, just like the big, fat one.

Then back to the Knights' Tomb and the statue is clearly a Frostbite version of the one on Sundermount.

Additional thought. As with the giant wolf statue, I don't believe the residents of the Dales constructed this huge tomb. Clearly, they simply used an already existing elven monument for the Emerald Knights. Why did they only bury the Emerald Knights here and not the other heroes, who were buried out in the Emerald Graves in true Dalish fashion?  Was it the connection with wolves that influenced who was chosen and who was not?   Was the Knights' Tomb originally the tomb of the Arcane Warriors?

This is not that far fetched. It is still open to speculation whether there is a connection between the Old Gods and the ancient elves. I know Solas appeared to deny this but what he actually said is "there is nothing in lore" to connect them. This is entirely true but could well be another example of Solas using equivocation to conceal what he actually knows and so he does not state an outright lie. Now it would seem odd if Dumat was represented in this way by Tevinter because the Old Gods are known to be depicted as dragons. However, it could be an earlier representation before the era of the Imperium; in other words how the Neromenians perceived him when they first started to worship him. Alternatively, there is the old fall back position that Tevinter built much of their empire on top of elven ruins and incorporated some elements into their structures, simply altering any figures that looked obviously elven. This bulbous god would not be a problem in that respect.

This is true. We do not know who they worshiped before they converted to the Maker in gratitude for their liberation by Drakon. There is a lot of conflicting information about the state of Old God worship both before and after the First Blight. According to Chantry scholars the people started to reject their worship as a result of being attacked by Dumat and the rest falling silent, although I've often wondered how exactly people knew that it was Dumat attacking if he was meant to have been imprisoned underground and so they had never seen him. Once the Wardens came into being, there does seem to be a suggestion that they are aware of the identity of the Arch-demons; otherwise how would they know which Old God had arisen? Also, the memory of Corypheus' slave seems to suggest that Old God worship was waning before the First Blight and he undertook his audacious mission in order to restore it. Meanwhile, the Old Gods worship is said to still have been strong enough in the Altus during the time of Hessarian that it took a blood bath to destroy it, including the religious propaganda of the Canticle of Silence. Yet, the writers do seem to have gone with the idea that the Canticle of Silence was reasonably accurate since the titles of the high priests contained there and the fact that it was Corypheus who led the expedition at the instigation of his god. Still, again referring back to the memory of the slave, it seems that he only took the name of Corypheus because he was leading the expedition and had not been known by that title previously.

With regard to the Warden Prison, they used the corpse of Dumat to entice him in, which was peculiar since it suggests Corypheus was drawn to the presence of the Arch-demon even after its death, so no longer emitting a song (I presume), yet there is no mention of him appearing on the scene until after the death of Dumat. So where was he during the 200 years of the First Blight? Was he in a trance somewhere? Did he suffer from amnesia like the Architect? Was it the death of his god that freed him? Since the Warden Prison was specifically constructed to contain Corypheus, it is possible that they used an old temple complex devoted to Dumat as the basis for it. It is even possible that he had been circulating in the vicinity because it was connected with his god. Could it even have been the temple complex he had used back before the First Blight? If the Canticle of Silence is to be believed, the priesthood undertaking the mission were not based in Minrathous but somewhere to the south of it. Also, as Dumat had been the main patron god of the kingdom of the Neromenians, whose power base was on the south-eastern side of the Nocen Sea, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the temple could have been the original one devoted to Dumat. As I've mentioned above, it is possible that Dumat was not perceived in dragon form before the formation of the Imperium. It is also possible that it was an even older shrine than that, which was re-purposed by Thalsian for his own use after being assured by Dumat that it was appropriate for him to do so.

I don't think Tevinter ever got as far south as the Emerald Graves, not to construct this complex anyway. However, the ruins in the Brecillian Forest were said to be of Tevinter design but clearly occupied by elves and humans at some point before the Imperium. So it does seem more likely that if it was used by Tevinter, they were utilising an earlier building of elven origin. So that leaves the question, did Tevinter install this statue or someone else? Even if the elves of the Dales were aware that this type of statue could have a magical use, would they really have dragged it all the way from Tevinter on the Long March? That seems unlikely. So it was probably already there, which begs the question why would the elves use a statue of a god worshiped by their enemies? Also, the Dalish are said to be extremely leery of any magic connected with spirits. It is why I have always maintained that Solas only needed to say that he lay around in ruins communing with them for the Dalish to freak out and chase him out of camp. This makes the statue a very odd thing to have in a structure used by the Dalish if they knew it had any direct connection with spirits. There are also mosaics to the Creators throughout the complex so why this obviously non-elven figure? For this reason I am pretty sure it pre-dates the Dalish occupation of the site and their priesthood were convinced it was a relic of ancient times and that is why they did not remove it, even though they may have had no idea who exactly it was meant to be.

I have to admit to being torn on all this. On the one hand, I know that they do frequently display inconsistencies in the lore, particularly in the source books. World of Thedas 2 not only has biographies for characters from the earlier games that do not match with what we were told at the time but, as one example, has inconsistency between the biography of Dorian and the biography of Alexius and neither of them match with what Dorian tells us in game. So I don't have much confidence in codices now or what writers may have divulged in the past.

On the other hand, the statues, etc, are a design issue. In some cases it could just be the reuse of resources to save time and money but idols like the bulbous god are so at variance with what you would expect to find in the tomb that I feel it has to be significant. Also, why re-use a design from a previous game engine when surely it would be the perfect time to come up with something new when they changed engines? After all, they came up with the designs for Mythal and the elven mosaics specifically for DAI, so why add in this anomaly?  I would find it intensely disappointing for the design team not to be working to a definite theme on all this that will eventually make sense.

Another factor does seem to be the narrative that they started to push in Trespasser that in some ways the Neromenians not only reused elven ruins but also mimicked the ordering of their society, at least once they had adopted the worship of Dumat and the other Old Gods. Dorian specifically points out the similarities between their two civilisations. In the preface to the Canticle of Shartan (in WoT2) the writer suggested that Shartan may not have been a real person but a title used by many (even though we met his shade in DAO) and draws similarities between his slave revolt against Tevinter and an earlier elven folktale of the struggle of a "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants". People were already drawing their conclusions about Solas after reading this and this was before Trespasser was released, which seemed to confirm it. Why was the writer of this piece deliberately drawing parallels between the two? Simply showing how history has a tendency to repeat itself? Or does this point to a connection between the two civilisations through the Old Gods?

Speaking of the frog-faced statue, you see them too Solas' sanctuary in Trespasser attached to the wall, but only the faces.