The Halla Enigma

Good question.

I'm going off on a speculation tangent, but hear me out. Mythal and Elgar'nan's origin story states that Mythal made The Moon from the light of The Sun, with The Moon being something lesser than the Sun's glory. In the story, this creation is represented as a bargain, after what sounded like a war. So I wonder if this was an allegory for the war between The Evanuris and The Titans? Maybe Mythal helped create The Dwarves from The Titans, so that Titans could still somewhat exist and operate, just at a smaller level, as they were essential to the make up of the world? By making them lesser, The Evanuris rule, but The Titans still live (tbh, they seem nearly impossible to kill).

So to answer your questions, I think The Titans shaped the stone itself until The Dwarves were created after the war, thus Elven intervention was responsible for The Deep Roads we see today. Since The Dwarves seemed to have worshipped Mythal (her dragon statue is found in The Hissing Wastes), it may have only been Mythal who was granted to work earnestly with The Titans children, which is what set her apart from the rest, building creations unlike any other.

I think the rest of The Evanuris mined scraps of sleeping Titans, and sadly even may have had Dwarven slaves themselves to help them mine. Which is pretty heartbreaking when you think about it. The Titans are literally watching their children be uses as slaves to mine their own corpses.

Mmmmmmm....Good, crunchy discussion. Much more filling than empty game engine or lack of statements whining empty calories



I'm going to go with some of what gervaise already responded on this. There's a fair bit of ingame lore to show that the dwarves in some form existed when the Evanuris struck the Titan(s). Also, we have some pretty hard evidence that elves directed (if not built themselves) some of the Deep Roads construction (Trespasser, Horror of Hormack [or is that Hormock?]). A better explanation might be that the elves built chambers that became thaigs for their own purposes probably with some connecting tunnels (though there is a shattered eluvian in the Caverns of the Pure where you find the Arcane Horror who experiments with Crethal). Dwarves that rose or remained after the Evanuris were banishedbuilt out more of the network as they grew and flourished over the next several hundred (or even thousands) of years. We know that the Evanuris harvested more than just lyrium from the titans by some point because we saw one of those crystal heart/node objects powering the pool of monster dough in HoH.

On that dragon statue in the Hissing Wastes, I would urge caution reading too much into it. Assuming you mean the small shrine on the top of the portico, I found out something interesting while searching for it online. The posts I read also included a mystery of arrows on the ground made of small stones. The poster had spent several hours running around the Hissing Wastes trying to make some sort of sense or message out of the arrows to no avail. They then asked the writer of that level at Bioware what was behind the arrows. It turns out the level designer had put them in to let the Player know they were getting to the edge of the map, to go back. That's why with any of these odd things that aren't obviously a joke, I look around the area and in other areas for clues to support or refurt the idea. In that respect, the shrine is tiny, quite out of the way, and does not seem in any way incorporated into the rest of the tomb structure. There are no other indications of dragon imagery in any of the dwarven tombs or ruins in the Wastes to my knowledge (let me know if I'm missing something. I actually like being proven wrong). There IS a lore entry found in the Tomb area that discusses the presence of dragon imagery and a bit of poetry concerning dragons held by Fairel's clan. With that, I don't think we are looking at dwarven dragon worshippers (not enough evidence) or just a joke like those arrows (too much evidence which I will provide afterward). I think we are looking at a little hint that is further backed up by the translation of the thaig's name: a place we may meet in peace. Who is the 'we' in that name? Fairel closed the way behind him so he wasn't expecting other dwarves. The dating on Kal Repartha places it's founding well before the First Blight emerged so it wasn't darkspawn and the dwarves already had treaties with Tevinter. I think the little dragon statue is a winking clue that Fairel expected to meet one or more dragons based on the ancient memories of his clan from the last time dwarves met dragons (as Evanuris or controlled by such). The fact that the little shrine was atop the Tomb which would be mostly or completely invisible to dwarves but quite visible to things that fly.

Back to the collected lorecraft of the board, is there any way to date the Gates of Segrumar information? I know that Valta says the metal the gears are made of is unlike any she has seen before and is curious. Are there other clues in the notes that might give an idea of time or identity? This feels like the Forgotten War notes, like it's important but subtle. Thanks in advance.

I was looking through my notes and came across another set of verses about Elgar'nan, associated with the bow Elgar'nan Enaste (Elgar'nan's Blessing):
Elgar'nan, Sun's-death
Burn the ground under your gaze
Grant the fire blessing.

Your people call out
For all things to end in flame
Ashes sing Your Praise

It would seem if anyone is associated with fire it is Elgar'nan and instead of being upset with the sun for burning things up, as the Dalish tale suggests, it is Elgar'nan that does the burning and his people worship him for it. That does make me wonder about those lizard people who appeared to worship fire. Also, I would imagine that his followers, if not Elgar'nan himself, would revere the lava flows of the Deep Roads.

It also makes me wonder about the idea that when the Maker returns he will cleanse the world with fire. Also, the Promissors belief that the world is so broken it can only be cleansed with fire. Finally, Solas' plan that would result in the "fires of chaos", surely something with which Elgar'nan would approve. Is Elgar'nan's consciousness somehow influencing all these ideas? I do feel that the dragons of fire would be something that either he created or coveted and copied their form.

May be Mythal moved her base of operations underground because there was too much risk of him burning stuff up on the surface.   Could the Crossroads have originally been created so that the elves could move around in relative safety?    Between Elgar'nan burning stuff, Andruil hunting and Ghilan'nain's monsters, the surface world outside of their cities must have been pretty dangerous places to be.

It is not so much the fact that they can procreate together but that the offspring always favours the human parent. I wonder if it would be the same with the other races? It would seem the dilution of the elven blood removes any physical characteristics of the elven parent, although I have long wondered if the ability to do magic was introduced into the human race by elf blooded children. If that is the case, then pre-Veil the humans probably couldn't do magic but those elves that did not go into retreat following the Veil may well have co-existed with humans, resulting in elf blooded children that were the first human mages.

I've suggested previously that in the passage about Andruil where it says: "One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts" that the mortal men were humans and she did seem to view them as little different from beasts. What I wonder is if these early humans were different from those that later came from across the sea. Dalish lore seems to think the Neromenians were the first humans in Thedas but their memory of the arrival of those humans may have omitted the fact that other humans were already present in other locations. In fact if they were scattered around, they may not even have been aware of their existence if they were in the wilds, whilst the majority of the elves were in the cities. Besides, the memories the Dalish recall are those of the elves in the Arlathan Forest in the north, so would have witnessed the arrival of the Neromenians as that is where they first made landfall. Tevinter Nights says that the Arlathan Forest was Andruil's domain, so the prohibition against mixing with humans may have come from her.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ghilan'nain conducted experiments on the early humans. If she didn't baulk at experimenting on elves then I'm pretty sure she would have considered humans fair game and dwarves too for that matter.

If anyone made the qunari, it was the kossith and considering qunari don’t freak out seeing elves highly suggests they aren’t the same. Also means magic was a thing on other continents, so humans and qunari have non-elven origins for it.

Also I remember the devs saying that the whole elven recessive gene applied to all races, not just humans. An elf and a dwarf will always have dwarven kids for example.

I know. Recessive gene was just shorthand for it.

I really hope you’re wrong. Again, it would be incredibly stupid if everything was “because ancient elves”.

I don't think we can escape the fact that the writers seem to be pointing at the elves being responsible for a lot of stuff in ancient times. However, whilst the origins of the humans and kossith/vashoth are still so vague there is the possibility that the humans at least have totally different origins for their magic and the vashoth may be the result of the experiments of some completely different civilisation.     As I say above, I hope DA4 is where we start getting some answers.    There has been a lot about elves up to now and a fair bit on the dwarves so it is now the turn of the  humans and vashoth.    I am really hopeful that we get to meet Rasaan in the next game because as the Ariqun in waiting, she has to know the truth.

Not all of it is. I think you may be onto something with some of your theories.

I don't think the Deep Roads were constructed by the Scaled Ones unless it was as a slave workforce. I do think they are more likely a remnant of another of experiment by either Ghilan'nain or a different Creator, possibly Sylaise. According to her followers she seems to mimic what the other gods do and try to go one better. So if her heat rivals Elgar'nan's light, her temples rival Mythal's cities, her breath rivals Andruil's spear and her skill rivals June's craft, may be her monsters rival those of Ghilan'nain.

I think you are right and the ritual did have something to do with containing the dragon that became the Arch-demon, possibly the Scaled Ones too. First question: was it tainted before or after its imprisonment? If the Arch-demon is only corrupted after the darkspawn break through, how come they and the Grey Wardens can hear its song? Did the great favour that June did for Sylaise have something to do with creating this prison or at least supplying the mechanism for the gates?

Of course, it could have nothing to do with the elves but an earlier group of dwarves but the spirals bother me. As I've mentioned above, the elves seemed to favour spirals, both as a pattern on the ground which has to be navigated and in decorations. Even the halla have spiral horns and we know they are a creature created by Ghilan'nain.

"Divided I am conquered. The Sigil breaks me." I wonder what this means? Does it have something to do with Solas? Was it his child that he sacrificed?  If the final speaker was a dwarf then it was a dwarf that could enter the Fade.  Was the broken child Sandal?  If he was half elf he would still look dwarven.  Bohdan found him in the lower reaches of the Deep Roads in a huge cavern decorated with a golden mosaic depicting dwarves, elves, dragons and other creatures he could not name.   He is unique in his abilities but a savant and apparently unable to tell Bohdan where he came from.   Is that what happened in the ritual?   He also seems to have some sort of strange connection with Flemeth/Mythal.   He spoke of a strange scary lady watching him as he slept.   Was he dreaming?   "Mythal gives you dreams."  Also possibly the gift of prophesy.

Who was the malevolent being that originally created the Sigil? What was the Sigil? Could it have any connection with the symbol of the Executors?

The Descent had a lot of mysteries connected with it that have yet to be solved. I'm fairly certain there are clues in it about things that will be revealed going forward and have a bearing on the Solas plot. It is possible that they are significant with regard to the origins of the taint.

Whilst he started out as a running gag, why did they have to create such a mysterious backstory for him in WoT2? Why did they keep having him not just turn up saying "Enchantment" but also constantly being in the thick of things and yet able to come out on top through strange unexplained abilities? DAO: He gets to the top of the tower ahead of us, killing numerous darkspawn in the process, including an ogre; DA2: He wanders off in the Deep Roads and turns an ogre into a block of crystal; he turns up in the Gallows (how?), is once again surrounded by bodies, so assume he killed them. He is also apparently not affected by the shard of red lyrium but instead turns it into something we can use. Admittedly, he is absent from DAI entirely, except that brief reference in Trespasser which seems back to the old running joke of "Enchantment". So if they had thought better of raising his profile as they had in DAO and DA2, why make up that history for him? Why not stick with Bohdan's original story that he found him wandering in the Deep Roads and just leave it at that? We know from DAO that it is apparently common practice to abandon unwanted dwarven children to their fate down there. So the only mystery would be his parentage and they apparently dropped some hints about that in Legacy, I think, which suggested he was the bastard child of an Aeducan. That would make sense, particularly if the other parent wasn't a dwarf. My point is they could have kept it low key, as in keeping with just a "joke" character. Instead they decided to give him a backstory that directly ties him into lore they introduce in DAI and subsequent stories. Perhaps it is just me but if it isn't relevant to the plot, I don't find that amusing, just annoying.

This may well apply to your comments about the eluvian too. Once again, certain things, such as Marethari's obligation to Flemeth are expanded on in WoT2. Leaving aside the fact that they got the dates totally wrong if the Keeper before Marethari was also the Dalish Warden's father, it would seem that Flemeth exacted revenge on a group of Avvar for the death of several clan members including the Keeper and Marethari's fiancee, doing this at the behest of Marethari. For some reason, the Dalish Keepers know Asha'Bellanar is someone you can go to for this sort of action but that it always comes at a price. (Why the Dalish would ever have approached her in the first place considering she is human in appearance, albeit an extremely old one, is anyone's guess). Anyway, Marethari was left with an obligation to Flemeth that she could call in at any time and apparently did so immediately after leaving Hawke. Marethari knew better than to refuse, although why she had to drag the entire clan there is less clear. (It also, of course, does not fit with the Dalish origin that has our foster mother turn up at the end and implies that all the clan are with her, looking forward to enjoying the Dalish boon). Still, that is the explanation they give for why the Sabrae clan end up at the foot of Sundermount. Presumably Flemeth taught Marethari the ritual when she called in the debt and Marethari taught it to Merrill just in case something should befall her, because she did not want to the clan to earn the ire of Asha'Bellanar. Did Marethari actually know Flemeth's true identity? It is possible since Flemeth asks Merrill pointedly if she is bowing because she knows who she really is, which Merrill denies. However, given Flemeth's reputation among both the Dalish and the Chassind, it may be she was just referring to that.

As for why they continue to stay there after Marethari had done her duty by Flemeth is less clear. Marethari seems to want to give Merrill the chance to realise the error of her ways. Since she seems to view Merrill as more than just her First, presumably a daughter, this seems understandable, except, as the clan later point out, her duty as Keeper was towards the clan as a whole, which does not seem to be served by keeping them in such a dangerous location. They did lose all their halla on the sea voyage but apparently still managed to haul their aravels up to Sundermount, so would it not have been possible to haul them a bit further to get away from the mountain? Could she not have sent out clan members to seek out the nearest Dalish clan with some halla to spare? This would surely have been a better risk to take than sending them into deadly ruins in the hope of finding some ancient artefacts? This aspect of the story really doesn't make sense.

I think the aggressive Vaterral and all the undead may have had a connection to the presence of the demon in the cave at the top of Sundermount. The Vaterral were originally said to have been constructed by Dirthamen and intended as guardians of a place or thing. According to Masked Empire they are not meant to be aggressive towards elves but I think for that you can read ancient elves and in particular the servants of Dirthamen. Whilst it is not clear what the Vaterral is meant to be guarding on Sundermount (something more than its treasure horde I would suggest), it would seem that it is performing its duty in that respect. May be the original item had been stolen away without its knowledge; may be the demon had influenced its programming. Whatever the case, presumably Marethari assumed that if a Vaterral was there then it must be guarding some ancient elven relic and that is why she persisted in sending her hunters to their deaths. May be Merrill's obsession with the mirror had its roots in Marethari's own obsession with recovering ancient relics. Perhaps that is why Marethari felt responsible and continued to remain loyal to Merrill even to the detriment of the rest of the clan. It is also possible that the demon was influencing Marethari's reasoning long before it persuaded her that allowing it to possess her was the only way to protect Merrill.

As for the eluvian, there are a lot of inconsistencies with what we are told in DAO with what we later discover. Duncan says (assumes?) that it is a Tevinter communication object and seems to think he destroyed it, both of which prove to be untrue but may be we can put that down to his ignorance. The eluvian definitely seemed to be connected to somewhere that is implied to be the Black City. If not there, then definitely somewhere in the Deep Roads since the darkspawn are coming through the eluvian. Tamlen also saw some sort of monstrous presence in the city. Was that the original broodmother, the Arch-demon or, if it is the actual Black City, Fen'Harel? People say you can see Merrill's eluvian in the Crossroads (or at least its counterpart) but that clearly wasn't where it was pointed in DAO. Did the corruption cause it to automatically focus on the Black City and did cleansing it revert it to its previous destination?

Whilst I am not sure if you can call an eluvian a living thing, it is definitely organic, for the reason you give; it can be tainted with the Blight. Since lyrium would have been involved in its construction, it is possible that is what is being infected, although why doesn't that simply turn it red? If Merrill found the means to cleanse the mirror of the taint, wouldn't that point to her having discovered a "cure" for the Blight? According to the Core Rule Book, the Grey Wardens know that the Dalish Keepers have always known a means by which to prevent the onset of symptoms after infection, which is what Marethari uses on the Dalish Warden but not an actual means of cleansing the body totally. Doesn't Merrill say that it was the demon who taught it to her? So if the same method could be used on a larger scale to cleanse anything of the taint, that would suggest there is a cure out there. The Warden certainly seemed to think so, although we are never told if their quest was successful. If we can take anything from the story surrounding Merrill's eluvian, I hope it would be that but it is quite possible this will be another of those loose ends that they quietly forget about.

OK, quick change of plans. Not sure if you said this already and I just missed it but there are a couple of instances of Claws of Dumat type statues in Descent. The first I spotted in the room with the Towers of Hanoi puzzle before you go through the first Rune-locked Gate. Its a bit high on the wall above the natural cave you can uncover by breaking up the boxes in the room. The only other ones I have seen are deeper in Heidrun Thaig in the half-flooded hallway that has the Arcane Horror IIRC. Why are they here? Where did they come from? Unlike the Primeval Thaig there are plenty of paragons statues and other typical dwarven touches. Were they brought in later or part of the thaig that was just ignored because it wasn't important to these dwarves. More mysteries, I'm afraid.