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Post by Zemgus on Nov 4, 2022 21:36:23 GMT
Same fears I have for any Bioware product going forward... increasing lack of player agency, especially when it comes to our player character and the meaningful choices we can make - streamlining instead of branching storytelling going forward. Making the games as "safe" and "woke" as possible to the point where the writing suffers and it just becomes unbearably distracting. Loud portion of the fandom (especially on Twitter and Tumblr) are these super soft special snowflake types who are just looking for a reason to be offended and I fear that's exactly the part of the fandom most of the devs seem to listen to.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 4, 2022 22:45:12 GMT
There must be a realistic risk of this. She’s the only legacy character 100% confirmed to be in the game, and from the trailer I’d assume she’s possibly going to be a major character again. Probably safe to say that if she’s a potential LI again she’s going to get lots of content. I didn’t actually mind Liara in the trilogy, but yeah the attention she got did seem disproportionate to what everyone else got…. We already had to much Liara in MEA. It really annoys the hell out of me. I get that, if it's set in the future, she's the only one who could be a link between ME3 and the time frame of MEA. I just don't want her shoved down my throat. And she's the consistent one shoved down my throat.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 4, 2022 22:51:00 GMT
Same fears I have for any Bioware product going forward... increasing lack of player agency, especially when it comes to our player character and the meaningful choices we can make - streamlining instead of branching storytelling going forward. Making the games as "safe" and "woke" as possible to the point where the writing suffers and it just becomes unbearably distracting. Loud portion of the fandom (especially on Twitter and Tumblr) are these super soft special snowflake types who are just looking for a reason to be offended and I fear that's exactly the part of the fandom most of the devs seem to listen to. Maybe but I'm not sure this is a fear you need to worry about. The big concern people had in MEA was the trans character and that wasn't really a big deal. Ryder asked why that person came to Andromeda and got an answer. The people who got offended were the ones who couldn't deal with it. It had zero impact on the story and in subsequent plays you could just skip it it became that bothersome. Otherwise, not sure what specifically you worry about. Can't be strong females because they're all over the place. Same-sex relationships? If you count Liara, that was present from day 1. So what's the actual concern? I'm legitimately asking, though I probably shouldn't go down this road.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 4, 2022 22:52:30 GMT
I respect your choice. I even respect people who choose endings that I hate. So long as the respect goes both ways on a personal level.
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Post by Zemgus on Nov 4, 2022 23:38:10 GMT
Same fears I have for any Bioware product going forward... increasing lack of player agency, especially when it comes to our player character and the meaningful choices we can make - streamlining instead of branching storytelling going forward. Making the games as "safe" and "woke" as possible to the point where the writing suffers and it just becomes unbearably distracting. Loud portion of the fandom (especially on Twitter and Tumblr) are these super soft special snowflake types who are just looking for a reason to be offended and I fear that's exactly the part of the fandom most of the devs seem to listen to. Maybe but I'm not sure this is a fear you need to worry about. The big concern people had in MEA was the trans character and that wasn't really a big deal. Ryder asked why that person came to Andromeda and got an answer. The people who got offended were the ones who couldn't deal with it. It had zero impact on the story and in subsequent plays you could just skip it it became that bothersome. Otherwise, not sure what specifically you worry about. Can't be strong females because they're all over the place. Same-sex relationships? If you count Liara, that was present from day 1. So what's the actual concern? I'm legitimately asking, though I probably shouldn't go down this road.
Like Broodmothers being removed from DA because they might "denigrate fat people" or Sandal being removed because the character might be seen as ableist. That sort of thing. Avoiding darker themes because the snowflakes are going to be on the look out for anything that might get their feelings very loudly hurt. Another example would be DA2's friendship/rivalry system which I personally loved as it created two different kind of relationship you could have with each character (and not needing to artificially raise their approval just to get access to all their content so it was really great for roleplaying also)... but even that has been declared as "promoting toxic relationships" by these types. For more Mass Effect specific example I liked that Shepard could be "Earth First" and bit of a space racist. Where as with Ryder they could only be played as "we're all in this together" wishy washy type. Naive, young, idiot basically (yeah I hated that character and it's the number one reason I never finished that game). I also liked that Shepard could be rude to his team mates where as with Ryder I don't remember that being an option. I really enjoy my evil playthroughs lol and sadly I feel like that aspect of older Bioware games is likely gone with the direction the games have been moving lately.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Nov 6, 2022 13:54:16 GMT
Maybe but I'm not sure this is a fear you need to worry about. The big concern people had in MEA was the trans character and that wasn't really a big deal. Ryder asked why that person came to Andromeda and got an answer. The people who got offended were the ones who couldn't deal with it. It had zero impact on the story and in subsequent plays you could just skip it it became that bothersome. Otherwise, not sure what specifically you worry about. Can't be strong females because they're all over the place. Same-sex relationships? If you count Liara, that was present from day 1. So what's the actual concern? I'm legitimately asking, though I probably shouldn't go down this road.
Like Broodmothers being removed from DA because they might "denigrate fat people" or Sandal being removed because the character might be seen as ableist. That sort of thing. Avoiding darker themes because the snowflakes are going to be on the look out for anything that might get their feelings very loudly hurt. Another example would be DA2's friendship/rivalry system which I personally loved as it created two different kind of relationship you could have with each character (and not needing to artificially raise their approval just to get access to all their content so it was really great for roleplaying also)... but even that has been declared as "promoting toxic relationships" by these types. For more Mass Effect specific example I liked that Shepard could be "Earth First" and bit of a space racist. Where as with Ryder they could only be played as "we're all in this together" wishy washy type. Naive, young, idiot basically (yeah I hated that character and it's the number one reason I never finished that game). I also liked that Shepard could be rude to his team mates where as with Ryder I don't remember that being an option. I really enjoy my evil playthroughs lol and sadly I feel like that aspect of older Bioware games is likely gone with the direction the games have been moving lately. Couldn't have said it better myself. 👍
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Post by Spectr61 on Nov 6, 2022 16:50:48 GMT
Does “Get Woke, Go Broke” have any applicability here?
Or, put another way, can I still quaff Ryncol whilst watching animals fight to the death.
While betting?
How about watching vids about new weps melting test subjects, with the testers laughing uproariously after?
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 6, 2022 23:43:18 GMT
Uuuuh, Broodmothers were not retconned out of DA lore, they are still mentioned in DAI. Darkspawn simply have a lesser role in DA2 and DAI. I've never heard of Sandal being accused of being ableist caricature, this seriously sounds more like strawman. And even then, Sandal is referenced in both DAI and Trespasser DLC. As for relationships being replaced by an approval system, BioWare simply just wanted to create a new system to make it less gamey( hence approval score was hidden). This had nothing to do with some obscure people complaining about it being allegedly toxic( which isn't at all???). Honestly, I won't address anything about issues with Ryder character, it is pretty damn clear you stubbornly want to only play as the edgelord protagonist.
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 6, 2022 23:47:43 GMT
Anyway to post my actual fears for NME.
I am very concerned BioWare may drop Ryder as the protagonist in the next game, as well more so they'll drop his/hers story along with Tempest crew and others.
Playing as the new protagonist and we get to work with Ryder would be an acceptable compromise, but I'd still much prefer to continue as Ryder( he/she does grow and mature by end of MEA).
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Post by Zemgus on Nov 7, 2022 12:16:57 GMT
Uuuuh, Broodmothers were not retconned out of DA lore, they are still mentioned in DAI. Darkspawn simply have a lesser role in DA2 and DAI. I've never heard of Sandal being accused of being ableist caricature, this seriously sounds more like strawman. And even then, Sandal is referenced in both DAI and Trespasser DLC. As for relationships being replaced by an approval system, BioWare simply just wanted to create a new system to make it less gamey( hence approval score was hidden). This had nothing to do with some obscure people complaining about it being allegedly toxic( which isn't at all???). Honestly, I won't address anything about issues with Ryder character, it is pretty damn clear you stubbornly want to only play as the edgelord protagonist. This was discussed in DA Twitter Thread. Apparently some Bioware devs said that the Broodmothers wouldn't be back because they're too problematic and same with Sandal. "Honestly, I won't address anything about issues with Ryder character, it is pretty damn clear you stubbornly want to only play as the edgelord protagonist" I like to replay these games and try out completely different characters for every playthrough. That's impossible to do in MEA since there's no player agency and the dialogue options are reduced to just two different ways of saying the same thing (compare that to DAO, DA2, MET and vanilla SWTOR... it's like night and day). I don't really like to play the role of the bland vanilla hero so you're not completely wrong. I prefer morally gray anti-heroes and lawful evil type of characters.
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 7, 2022 12:27:35 GMT
This was discussed in DA Twitter Thread. Apparently some Bioware devs said that the Broodmothers wouldn't be back because they're too problematic and same with Sandal. "Honestly, I won't address anything about issues with Ryder character, it is pretty damn clear you stubbornly want to only play as the edgelord protagonist" I like to replay these games and try out completely different characters for every playthrough. That's impossible to do in MEA since there's no player agency and the dialogue options are reduced to just two different ways of saying the same thing (compare that to DAO, DA2, MET and vanilla SWTOR... it's like night and day). I don't really like to play the role of the bland vanilla hero so you're not completely wrong. I prefer morally gray anti-heroes and lawful evil type of characters. To stick it to Mass Effect here, no. Ryder isn't some bland vanilla hero, it is very uncharitable characterization. Especially since Ryder CAN commit several war crimes, per player choice so "no player agency" is also bunk.
You can play as more ruthless Ryder, just not as murderous psychopath. And there's plenty of grey moral decisions to make too.
So yeah, I think you mistake gray anti-hero archetype with an edgelord archetype.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 7, 2022 13:12:57 GMT
For more Mass Effect specific example I liked that Shepard could be "Earth First" and bit of a space racist. Where as with Ryder they could only be played as "we're all in this together" wishy washy type. I don't have too much of a problem with the we're all in this together motto. It does take a team to complete a mission. The problem I have with it, is one of the squadmates was not a team player who should never have been a squadmate. Ryder was also undiscipline and incompetent. For someone who was in the military for 2-3 years, and had a father who was a former N7, they come across as a joke who can't be taken seriously. I don't care for the character. I could walk up to Ryder, smack them around like a ragdoll, then watch them fall to the ground, curl up in the fetal position and then start sucking their thumb. I liked Shepard because I can relate to a few things whereas the only thing I can relate to Ryder is being human. While I did like the few times Shepard can get in the face of their squadmates, I wanted more especially in ME3. The only time Ryder can be firm, if one wants to use that word, to a squadmate was to Kosta right after his mission. I would have shot the clown dead instead of wasting my breath. With the playthrough in my signature I don't call evil. I call it getting the job done. Ryder being evil/aggressive? I don't see that happening if MEA is anything to go by. I will say Ryder has couple of bright moments. He/she can kill the kett in the bubble when rescuing the moseha and when shooting the peepee's girlfriend. Then again, I would have done those things even if was playing as a paragon. There have been posts from people saying Ryder can mature in the next game. For me to believe the little one has done any maturing/growning a pair, I would like to see at the beginning of the game, a new squadmate ask Ryder why the peepee character and the traitor character are no longer on the roster. Ryder realized letting squadmates do stupid things can lead to bad things, and they did, had to be removed so that something worse doesn't happen. That would be a start. As I've said before. I believe killing off Alec hurt little Ryder. Having dad around could have helped grown the character throughout the game.
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Post by Zemgus on Nov 7, 2022 13:23:57 GMT
This was discussed in DA Twitter Thread. Apparently some Bioware devs said that the Broodmothers wouldn't be back because they're too problematic and same with Sandal. "Honestly, I won't address anything about issues with Ryder character, it is pretty damn clear you stubbornly want to only play as the edgelord protagonist" I like to replay these games and try out completely different characters for every playthrough. That's impossible to do in MEA since there's no player agency and the dialogue options are reduced to just two different ways of saying the same thing (compare that to DAO, DA2, MET and vanilla SWTOR... it's like night and day). I don't really like to play the role of the bland vanilla hero so you're not completely wrong. I prefer morally gray anti-heroes and lawful evil type of characters. To stick it to Mass Effect here, no. Ryder isn't some bland vanilla hero, it is very uncharitable characterization. Especially since Ryder CAN commit several war crimes, per player choice so "no player agency" is also bunk.
You can play as more ruthless Ryder, just not as murderous psychopath. And there's plenty of grey moral decisions to make too.
So yeah, I think you mistake gray anti-hero archetype with an edgelord archetype.
Another thing that annoyed me about Ryder was the inconsistency. You could choose the dialogue option that says something like "it's us or them" and then at another point in the game the autodialogue completely misses that characterization by making Ryder say "what are you doing to that person?" when she encounters someone from the Intiative torturing a Kett POW for information. Where as before you've only referred to the Kett as monsters and have had no problem with killing them. I actually quit the game after that particular point. Ryder and SAM's constant autodialogue chatter was also just another thing I disliked. "Ryder isn't some bland vanilla hero, it is very uncharitable characterization." I disagree. Not only is Ryder bland but they're also stupid, indecisive and boring. It's just part of the overall bad writing of MEA. I wish the tone of the game had been closer to the 100 series (which also had very young main characters and similar dystopian survival story) than Marvel.
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 7, 2022 13:36:11 GMT
Another thing that annoyed me about Ryder was the inconsistency. You could choose the dialogue option that says something like "it's us or them" and then at another point in the game the autodialogue completely misses that characterization by making Ryder say "what are you doing to that person?" when she encounters someone from the Intiative torturing a Kett POW for information. Where as before you've only referred to the Kett as monsters and have had no problem with killing them. I actually quit the game after that particular point. Ryder and SAM's constant autodialogue chatter was also just another thing I disliked. "Ryder isn't some bland vanilla hero, it is very uncharitable characterization." I disagree. Not only is Ryder bland but they're also stupid, indecisive and boring. It's just part of the overall bad writing of MEA. I wish the tone of the game had been closer to the 100 series (which also had very young main characters and similar dystopian survival story) than Marvel. This example is very telling.
You can view group of people as nothing but monster, but when you see them being horribly torture, it is very realistic to react empathically because it is a messed up thing to do to anyone. "Wouldn't wish it to my worst enemies" phrase exists for such cases. Also you can just let torture to continue anyway? Hell there is real life historic example of certain vile and evil individual who couldn't stomach what he was doing to "undesirable" peoples, but he continued doing it anyway just kept it out of sight from then on.
Once again, you're annoyed you can't play as psychopathic character. You can play as ruthless Ryder, just not psychopathic one. Again, you're mistaking playing edgelord with grey anti-hero.
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Post by Zemgus on Nov 7, 2022 13:56:01 GMT
Another thing that annoyed me about Ryder was the inconsistency. You could choose the dialogue option that says something like "it's us or them" and then at another point in the game the autodialogue completely misses that characterization by making Ryder say "what are you doing to that person?" when she encounters someone from the Intiative torturing a Kett POW for information. Where as before you've only referred to the Kett as monsters and have had no problem with killing them. I actually quit the game after that particular point. Ryder and SAM's constant autodialogue chatter was also just another thing I disliked. "Ryder isn't some bland vanilla hero, it is very uncharitable characterization." I disagree. Not only is Ryder bland but they're also stupid, indecisive and boring. It's just part of the overall bad writing of MEA. I wish the tone of the game had been closer to the 100 series (which also had very young main characters and similar dystopian survival story) than Marvel. This example is very telling.
You can view group of people as nothing but monster, but when you see them being horribly torture, it is very realistic to react empathically because it is a messed up thing to do to anyone. "Wouldn't wish it to my worst enemies" phrase exists for such cases. Also you can just let torture to continue anyway? Hell there is real life historic example of certain vile and evil individual who couldn't stomach what he was doing to "undesirable" peoples, but he continued doing it anyway just kept it out of sight from then on.
Once again, you're annoyed you can't play as psychopathic character. You can play as ruthless Ryder, just not psychopathic one. Again, you're mistaking playing edgelord with grey anti-hero. That would be great if it was optional... but the problem is it's autodialogue line that every Ryder says every time. That's my main issue with MEA and what I'm actually annoyed with. Again compare that with DAO, DA2, MET and SWTOR's class stories. Even if you're the biggest MEA/Ryder Stan you can't deny the lack of player agency and dialogue options that are actually different and not just the same thing said slightly differently.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 7, 2022 16:51:52 GMT
Like Broodmothers being removed from DA because they might "denigrate fat people" or Sandal being removed because the character might be seen as ableist. Is this true or just something you believe is true? I've honestly never heard about this.
Edit: I've looked into this and can't find a trace. Twitter stuff is very well archived in search engines. I checked DuckDuckGo (my default), Bing and Google. One of them had to have a reference. And do you even know anyone who dislikes Sandal?
For more Mass Effect specific example I liked that Shepard could be "Earth First" and bit of a space racist. Where as with Ryder they could only be played as "we're all in this together" wishy washy type. Yes, but this made sense. The AI set out together to build something new. Whatever they might have done had things gone as planned, the ruined Golden Worlds required pulling on all resources. And let's be honest. The AI would have been dead in the water if not for SAM.
Edit: By the above, I mean that SAM was an entirely human creation and the "Uber SAM" (the one with special abilities" was strictly for humans. For Ryders, actually. Sounds to me like humanity was put first. Otherwise why not invest this tech for all the Pathfinders?
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Post by Zemgus on Nov 7, 2022 17:02:59 GMT
Like Broodmothers being removed from DA because they might "denigrate fat people" or Sandal being removed because the character might be seen as ableist. Is this true or just something you believe is true? I've honestly never heard about this. For more Mass Effect specific example I liked that Shepard could be "Earth First" and bit of a space racist. Where as with Ryder they could only be played as "we're all in this together" wishy washy type. Yes, but this made sense. The AI set out together to build something new. Whatever they might have done had things gone as planned, the ruined Golden Worlds required pulling on all resources. And let's be honest. The AI would have been dead in the water if not for SAM. I heard about the Broodmother thing from Dragon Age Twitter Thread so it might be cap. I certainly hope it is. As for Sandal I remember that's something David Gaider talked about. It does make sense but I would've liked the option to play as someone who still thinks humanity first > other species second. And makes choices accordingly.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 7, 2022 17:29:29 GMT
It does make sense but I would've liked the option to play as someone who still thinks humanity first > other species second. And makes choices accordingly. My Shepard's are always humanity first. However, they have to play politics to help humanity advance. And they do it well. MEA was a different beast because it didn't have the backing of its race. It was a relatively small contingent that was meant to seed its own worlds. That plan went to shit and required all the resources available just to survive. And it's worth noting that the Tempest took off without proper authorization so they didn't just kiss the Nexus's ass. But they still needed its resources in the form of a safe haven and a way to expand humanity's base. A powerful humanity would end up having a major place on whatever Council rose up. It will always have a bit of tech no one else has and it will always be able to impact the very environment of many worlds. Seems like some major leverage, even if unintended. Humanity is the major player. Not a single other race could have survived without SAM, a human creation. That moron running the Nexus was always going to lose power though he's actually more helpful than the Council in the MW. I don't think we're on the same page. I do prefer a rougher protagonist than Ryder. I was hoping Ryder could grow into the role in MEA2, and I think we saw growth in the character along the way. But that's neither here nor there because we don't, and probably never will, know what changes might have been made. I expect a new protagonist in the next ME game that will probably run closer to Shepard than Ryder. Pretty easy to do when the galaxy is a mess post-Reaper War.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 7, 2022 19:23:30 GMT
I'm afraid R/G/B will still be a thing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 7, 2022 21:23:42 GMT
Anyway to post my actual fears for NME. I am very concerned BioWare may drop Ryder as the protagonist in the next game, as well more so they'll drop his/hers story along with Tempest crew and others. Playing as the new protagonist and we get to work with Ryder would be an acceptable compromise, but I'd still much prefer to continue as Ryder( he/she does grow and mature by end of MEA). If we are a new protagonist, I’d prefer we don’t work with Ryder or they show up at all. Have them be busy in another part of the galaxy helping on that front. That way it avoids the inevitable bastardization they’d get like Revan and Hawke.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 8, 2022 1:48:04 GMT
Not a direct sequel to Andromeda.
Having nothing at all to do with Andromeda.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 8, 2022 13:31:35 GMT
For more Mass Effect specific example I liked that Shepard could be "Earth First" and bit of a space racist. Where as with Ryder they could only be played as "we're all in this together" wishy washy type. Yes, but this made sense. The AI set out together to build something new. Whatever they might have done had things gone as planned, the ruined Golden Worlds required pulling on all resources. And let's be honest. The AI would have been dead in the water if not for SAM. While I agree about the sam voice thing, but would the refugees, I mean Initiative, have gone to Andromeda without the golden world thing? Wasn't that information provided by a quarian who infiltrated the geth telescope? What's interesting is it appears Alec was the only one in the galaxy to have the brain power to do this. Of course the Benefactor stepped in to help finish the job. With the intelligence the salarians have, I wouldn't have been surprised if they came up with that long ago.
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Post by Storm on Nov 8, 2022 18:41:56 GMT
I have no worries about the content itself. Sorry for going a little off-topic, but I'm concerned that EA might close the studio if BioWare continues to underperform EA and shareholders' expectations.
Only slightly concerned, though. I think Dreadwolf will deliver and the supposed scrapping of GaaS elements was probably for the best.
It would suck if we never got more Mass Effect and Dragon Age games, at least made by BioWare if EA keeps the IPs. If the studio were to close I hope they find a new home at Inflexion Games, Archetype Entertainment, Skeleton Key or something new entirely, creating new worlds with similar BioWare magic. (It's cool that Wizards of the Coast houses two studios both located in Austin and consisting of ex-BioWare devs. Seems nice that Austin BioWare devs potentially have a familar place to go to, if they leave their current job for whatever reason.) Perhaps leading to the creation of a Mass Effect spiritual successor, similar to The Callisto Protocol. But a lot of the existing ME races would be dearily missed.
Oh, I just realized my concern for the next game! That we don't see enough of "minor" races like vorcha, elchor, volus and hanar. It's time some of them became squadmates.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 10, 2022 16:05:12 GMT
I'm afraid R/G/B will still be a thing. I can't imagine how. How do you implement the Reapers being there/not being there, or AI (bots, not MEA) being alive/organics being greenish tinted? Unless the Reapers went somewhere else, and I'd have a hard time buying into that one. Or if the obvious effects (green tint) went away and the nature of AI just isn't discussed. But then why bother having RGB at all?
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 10, 2022 16:10:01 GMT
While I agree about the sam voice thing, but would the refugees, I mean Initiative, have gone to Andromeda without the golden world thing? Wasn't that information provided by a quarian who infiltrated the geth telescope? That would mean the golden worlds were wrecked over a fairly short time period. This actually isn't out of line (time-wise) with things mentioned in MEA. What's interesting is it appears Alec was the only one in the galaxy to have the brain power to do this. Of course the Benefactor stepped in to help finish the job. With the intelligence the salarians have, I wouldn't have been surprised if they came up with that long ago. I believe Alec had backing all along. We know humanity was working on AI as far back as when Anderson and Saren first met (despite what they said) and we know they were working on it during the time of ME1 (despite what they say about it). I'd say Alec had secret funding all along. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Cerberus were part of the funding, or at least the people who threw money at Cerberus.
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