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Post by colfoley on Jun 28, 2023 4:47:50 GMT
I do think that is pretty much what they are going to go for which kind of is something they did before...well at least with Origins. I think long term threat versus immediete threat is going to be a very BIG part of the game and one of its major themes that they will hopefully handle well. Because the Antaam is a threat. Whatever is happening in the Anderfels is a threat. And who knows what else will be going on in the game to further make things a threat...which the thing is A. its been almost a decade, as far as we know, since Tresspasser in universe so all of these threats could get baked into the background...it will be very hard to convince people of a threat that refuses to materialize its like... the Inquisitor says "the sky is falling" and then the sky never falls. And B. more to the point since these things are actual threats then they will have to be dealt with by everyone involved. As much as the Inquisition/ Dorian/ Divine Victoria may want to get involved its hard to not deal with a threat that's over there when there is a herd of rampaging Qunari kicking your door in. And you just said what I’m afraid they’re going to do. Most people focusing on the other things while dismissing the warnings about Solas I completely get and don’t hold against them. They don’t know any better. It’s our companions who do know but then dismissing or dropping that threat that I have a problem with. To use Mass Effect as an example, I hate how Wrex won’t help against the Reapers until the Genophage is cured. He knows that they’re the bigger threat but still won’t help. Now add to that what you said where it would be like him not even thinking the Reapers are going to be a threat. That’s what I’m worried is going to happen with our DAI cast, especially since like I noted they’ve done that before. So I hope for them it’s a lot more like Legion (who wanted to help but literally couldn’t since his people were trapped) than Wrex. And that is pretty much my fear. People have their own individual problems that matter and are important to them and that they often have to solve before they can move on and help other people's problems. Someone living paycheck to paycheck for instance won't be able to neccessarily donate to charities and soup halls and what not on a regular basis until they become more financially independent as a real example. Now there is an upper limit to these situations to like there are some problems so trivial that yeah you should probably drop them in favor of dealing with the meglomaniac who wants to destroy the world. Which the genophage is a perfect example of that and I am about 90% on Wrex's side for the whole proceedings. Yes, the Reapers would've destroyed the Krogan and the entire galaxy but the genophage had been demonstrably to be just as deadly to the Krogan in the long term. And given the galactic history between the Krogan and the Council the Krogan couldn't have trusted that the Council would argue any promise to solve the issue 'later'...for various reasons...and the Council, led by the Salarians, would've very likely reneged on the deal in the first place because the 'Krogan have demonstrated that they are too dangerous to be trusted.' Hell even though the Quarians bother me far more then the Krogans in this case even they still have a point to get a planet to secure their civilians while the Fleet went to full scale war. Just in the Krogans case we did get lucky that work on a cure had already progressed to the point it had and with the Quarians that the Geth really didn't like the Reapers too much either and weren't interested in genocide. But this is the thing and I have banged on it before. When a Qunari soldier is attempting to kill you you're not going to care about some rumors that some Elf may someday destroy the world somehow. And since this is an RPG we should get many ways to deal with such questions but treating the legitimate problems with blanket arrogance of 'nah my problems are more important' shouldn't neccessarily win us any friends as it wouldn't in real life. And specifically as far as our companions are concerned many of them are in positions of leadership which also means that they have to be sensitive to the problems of their constitutents. I’ve got a distinct feeling i’m going to be very annoyed if as I suspect weekes tries to whitewash solas. I don't really think there is anything to 'white wash' in the first place. While he is trying to do legitimate horrible things and while his logic remains more then a little suspect he has always been presented as a moral, principled character that sees no alternative to doing what is actually a pretty noble objective, bring his people back, just logic and aims is a little suspect, again I stress because people around here do often tend to get uppity when it comes to moral issues. But he openly admits to not wanting to do this and he has openly admitted to the Inquisitor of hoping to be proven wrong. This is not a black character, this is not Corypheus despite the comparisons, and this isn't someone who is shoving people into ovens for the shits and gigles of it. Weekes whitewashes EVERYONE. Except the Qun for some reason. Them they made morally black and judges people who ever side with them. I've said both of these things before, and I'll say them again: Sauron was essentially Morgoth 2.0. Galadriel and Elrond led opposition to him for centuries, Gandalf was specifically resurrected to stop him, and Aragorn had the whole "vengeance and family honor" arc against him. Yet while everyone played their parts, the Dark Lord was ultimately undone by a couple of Hobbits. The Inquisitor could develop a relationship with Solas over the period of ONE game, so I see no reason a new hero couldn't create their own personal dynamic with the Dread Wolf. Of course they can. The issue is just all the lost potential. Instead of developing everything that’s there, they start from scratch wasting time establishing what was already established. Sauron Vs Frodo is not a good example of a well-developed hero-villain dynamic. At the risk of engaging in projection I have always wondered if the Qunari aren't essentially a control experiment in this whole thing. Dragon Age has always been a very individualist franchise and sort of the tension between the individual and good people versus the corruption of organizations and the state as a whole. The Chantry is a hell hole, the Templar Order are visious Tyrants, the Tevinter Imperium is evil incarnate...and yet you have Cassandra, and Cullen, and Dorian, and Evangeline, and Divine Justinia, and Elthina, who are all good people who are trying to fix the situation and as a bonus you have also discovered shades of grey all over the place within these organizations as we find out more about them. The Qunari in that case since they are one of the most extreme collectovist societies out there is the direct antithesis to that role so it does make a degree of sense to cast them in the role of at least one of the villain factions especially if the ideologies of the writing team is one that is against any form of tyranny to begin with. I do stress though that, speaking of White washing, what does tend to happen is the more you know about someone or some group or some people or some country the less easy it is to generalize and the more you see shades of grey within the group as a whole and the individual members of the group. Its happened in Dragon Age, it tends to happen in real life, and we started off as the default with Solas. We got to know the guy first before we discovered that he had genocidal ambitions. But in the end we still don't know that much about the Qunari eithe rnor their history so it would be incredibly easy to 'white wash' them (a term which is becoming more ridicilious the more times I use it) and demonstrate that hey, they are a fallen and corrupted version of Koslun's ideals from way back when...which is just as likely as anything else.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 28, 2023 7:22:26 GMT
I’ve got a distinct feeling i’m going to be very annoyed if as I suspect weekes tries to whitewash solas. I don't really think there is anything to 'white wash' in the first place. While he is trying to do legitimate horrible things and while his logic remains more then a little suspect he has always been presented as a moral, principled character that sees no alternative to doing what is actually a pretty noble objective, bring his people back, just logic and aims is a little suspect, again I stress because people around here do often tend to get uppity when it comes to moral issues. But he openly admits to not wanting to do this and he has openly admitted to the Inquisitor of hoping to be proven wrong. This is not a black character, this is not Corypheus despite the comparisons, and this isn't someone who is shoving people into ovens for the shits and gigles of it. Such a moral fellow. Planning to deliberately mass murder the world to make up for his previous deliberate mass murdering and mutilation of the world. Hopefully i can leave him to the Evanuris' tender care.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 28, 2023 8:21:07 GMT
But he openly admits to not wanting to do this and he has openly admitted to the Inquisitor of hoping to be proven wrong. Only if he is on good terms with the Inquisitor. There is an alternative confrontation where he doesn't express any regret, admits he is only saving them because of the unnecessary chaos their death will cause (for all we know it might also affect his plans but he is not going to admit that) and that he stopped the Qunari from invading the south because "they offend me". Now, unless they are going to totally ignore this version and relationship with the Inquisitor (one of mutual animosity), they are going to have to develop his character in a way that is true to both. In TN, PW chose to go with the version where Solas was on good terms with the Inquisitor (or he is being an utter troll in apologising via Charter for his action, which of itself is not a positive trait), when he could have kept his portrayal more neutral. PW also admitted when talking about developing Solas' character in DAI, that originally he was meant to be more obvious duplicitous and in keeping with the Dalish portrayal of the Dread Wolf, but then the team decided to make him a more sympathetic character and adding the romance was specifically tied up with this. This did give a complexity to him that we don't find in many antagonists but I do worry about that message he gave to Varric in the Missing because it does seem to lean too heavily into the Inquisitor friendly version and to some extent contradicts his attitude in Trespasser. There he anticipated wholesale destruction but was going to carry on regardless and made no promise of trying to mitigate the damage, presumably because he knew from bitter experience that once you set these sorts of reality changing rituals into motion, you can't micromanage the outcome. So, were his words to Varric sincere or just to placate him? Is his conscience plaguing him sufficiently that he genuinely thinks he can control the outcome, a distinct possibility in view of his track record, which may only result in him making things worse. If the latter is the reason for his words, then that is not PW whitewashing him but Solas being true to his character that he thinks he and only he can be trusted to do anything and he is just becoming more deluded about his ability to control things. This is not a black character, this is not Corypheus despite the comparisons, and this isn't someone who is shoving people into ovens for the shits and gigles of it. Actually, if you take the Templar path and read what his servant says about him in the Fade, then Corypheus has more complexity to him than people give him credit for. Back in ancient times, his servant says that Cory was worried about a falling off in the faithful. We never did discover what was meant by this, since the Chantry version is this only happened after the First Blight started and the gods fell silent. He was cutting himself ever more deeply and desperately, suggesting that perhaps he was trying to contact his god through blood magic, as he had done in the past, but it wasn't working. If you think about this, if the welfare of Tevinter depends on the patronage of the Old Gods and the chief of them is no longer speaking to him, of course he is going to panic. (There are some further references to the silence of the gods in JoH but unfortunately no time reference, so it is unclear if this was before or after the start of the First Blight). So, did Dumat ultimately respond and invite him to the Golden City as a reward for his devotion, or did he go there in order to try and find answers? The servant makes it clear that Corypheus was never a cruel master and, it would seem from the account, was more likely to use his own blood rather than that of his slaves but he felt the situation demanded extreme measures. Does that not sound a bit like Solas? Then, he discovered that the Golden City was in fact black and no one was at home. The throne of the gods was empty. It would seem he was then ejected back to Thedas and since there is no record of him actually taking any part in the First Blight, I assume it probably left him comatose for its duration whilst Dumat was on the rampage and that he only revived after the death of his god. He didn't seem aware of this but was strangely attracted to the corpse, which was how the Wardens were able to capture him. Another thousand years or so of imprisonment follows, when he is effectively slumbering, and when he awakens he discovers that the Imperium is a shadow of its former glory, Old God worship has ceased and the Chantry has replaced them with a god and a story that he knows not to be true, from his PoV. He and his companions have also been framed as the villains in previous events, which he feels is unjust. He then sets about trying to rectify this and restoring the world he knew. Doesn't that sound like Solas too? So, whilst they aren't entirely the same, there are some parallels in their story which justify people drawing comparisons between them.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 28, 2023 8:56:48 GMT
Weekes whitewashes EVERYONE. Except the Qun for some reason. Them they made morally black and judges people who ever side with them. I've said both of these things before, and I'll say them again: Sauron was essentially Morgoth 2.0. Galadriel and Elrond led opposition to him for centuries, Gandalf was specifically resurrected to stop him, and Aragorn had the whole "vengeance and family honor" arc against him. Yet while everyone played their parts, the Dark Lord was ultimately undone by a couple of Hobbits. The Inquisitor could develop a relationship with Solas over the period of ONE game, so I see no reason a new hero couldn't create their own personal dynamic with the Dread Wolf. Of course they can. The issue is just all the lost potential. Instead of developing everything that’s there, they start from scratch wasting time establishing what was already established. Sauron Vs Frodo is not a good example of a well-developed hero-villain dynamic. If you take this whole "the Inquisitor is the only one who should stop Solas" argument to it's logical extreme, then Inky should've never been created, and Hawke should've been Corypheus' primary foe. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 28, 2023 9:10:54 GMT
Except the Qun for some reason. Them they made morally black and judges people who ever side with them.Of course they can. The issue is just all the lost potential. Instead of developing everything that’s there, they start from scratch wasting time establishing what was already established. Sauron Vs Frodo is not a good example of a well-developed hero-villain dynamic. If you take this whole "the Inquisitor is the only one who should stop Solas" argument to it's logical extreme, then Inky should've never been created, and Hawke should've been Corypheus' primary foe. That’s never been my argument. My argument has always been the Inquisitor is the best to defeat Solas because it has the best story due to their relationship built throughout DAI. I’ve always said others can defeat him, just then it’s a Corypheus 2.0 plot since to a new PC Solas is just another ancient mage who wants to destroy the world to remake his own. As for Hawke Vs Corypheus, not applicable since as they repeatedly establish they thought Corypheus was dead. If Cory showed up at the very end and gave the same kind of speech Solas did in Trespasser absolutely it should have been Hawke then. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 28, 2023 9:24:04 GMT
And you just said what I’m afraid they’re going to do. Most people focusing on the other things while dismissing the warnings about Solas I completely get and don’t hold against them. They don’t know any better. It’s our companions who do know but then dismissing or dropping that threat that I have a problem with. To use Mass Effect as an example, I hate how Wrex won’t help against the Reapers until the Genophage is cured. He knows that they’re the bigger threat but still won’t help. Now add to that what you said where it would be like him not even thinking the Reapers are going to be a threat. That’s what I’m worried is going to happen with our DAI cast, especially since like I noted they’ve done that before. So I hope for them it’s a lot more like Legion (who wanted to help but literally couldn’t since his people were trapped) than Wrex. And that is pretty much my fear. People have their own individual problems that matter and are important to them and that they often have to solve before they can move on and help other people's problems. Someone living paycheck to paycheck for instance won't be able to neccessarily donate to charities and soup halls and what not on a regular basis until they become more financially independent as a real example. Now there is an upper limit to these situations to like there are some problems so trivial that yeah you should probably drop them in favor of dealing with the meglomaniac who wants to destroy the world. Which the genophage is a perfect example of that and I am about 90% on Wrex's side for the whole proceedings. Yes, the Reapers would've destroyed the Krogan and the entire galaxy but the genophage had been demonstrably to be just as deadly to the Krogan in the long term. And given the galactic history between the Krogan and the Council the Krogan couldn't have trusted that the Council would argue any promise to solve the issue 'later'...for various reasons...and the Council, led by the Salarians, would've very likely reneged on the deal in the first place because the 'Krogan have demonstrated that they are too dangerous to be trusted.' Hell even though the Quarians bother me far more then the Krogans in this case even they still have a point to get a planet to secure their civilians while the Fleet went to full scale war. Just in the Krogans case we did get lucky that work on a cure had already progressed to the point it had and with the Quarians that the Geth really didn't like the Reapers too much either and weren't interested in genocide. But this is the thing and I have banged on it before. When a Qunari soldier is attempting to kill you you're not going to care about some rumors that some Elf may someday destroy the world somehow. And since this is an RPG we should get many ways to deal with such questions but treating the legitimate problems with blanket arrogance of 'nah my problems are more important' shouldn't neccessarily win us any friends as it wouldn't in real life. And specifically as far as our companions are concerned many of them are in positions of leadership which also means that they have to be sensitive to the problems of their constitutents. That real world example you gave isn’t the best one. If anything it fits more on my side since you established that they want to help but cannot in any way. That’s not what I’m worried about. I’m worried about having them able to help but either not doing so or only conditionally. And that shouldn’t have mattered to Wrex. It never did before yet he promised to help, only when the time came he only would if we do everything he wants first. The Quarians were also complete idiots since they could have dropped their civilians off anywhere until the war was finished. It’s not like they’ll immediately adjust even on Rannoch. But no it has to be the homeworld. But didn’t use them because they are NPCs not companions (same reason I didn’t include the Council) and the only Admiral on that board that was is potentially Tali and she tried to get them to focus on the Reapers first. I’m not saying we should be completely dismissive of those other threats, and in fact support dealing with them as well. Same with me not having issue with companions worrying about their people’s problems. But it’s them abandoning the cause they agreed to support when still able to that concerns me. Especially the ones not in those super precarious circumstances. For example unless they act like Wrex I’ll be a lot more lenient towards ones like Dorian or Josephine compared to ones like Leliana/Cassandra/Vivienne, Sera, etc. As for your part responding to my comments on Patrick’s feelings towards the Qunari and people who sided with them or see the greyness, that wasn’t what I was talking about. Also also completely disagree with your portrayal of Solas, but that wasn’t responding to me so won’t respond further unless you desire it. |
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 28, 2023 11:36:44 GMT
At the risk of engaging in projection I have always wondered if the Qunari aren't essentially a control experiment in this whole thing. As for your part responding to my comments on Patrick’s feelings towards the Qunari and people who sided with them or see the greyness, that wasn’t what I was talking about. I think what Hanako was referencing was that PW had definitely said that he thought those who sacrificed the Chargers were terrible people, which does seem to go directly against the idea of "shades of grey", which can make either option equally valid and in fact moral. It is true that we had been introduced to the Chargers personally, which I assume was deliberate in order to guilt us into PW's preferred path, but it was only the briefest of introductions and, like everyone who signed on with the Inquisition, their welfare was always going to be subordinate to the success of our enterprise. The alliance with the Qun was seen as integral to that, although it is noticeable that you only acquire this quest if you have sufficient approval with Iron Bull and in my case, this was not down to any particular action other than I took him on a dragon hunt. I originally didn't get it my first run, learned about it and went back to my last appropriate save point, went on the dragon hunt with Iron Bull in the party and hey presto, suddenly I'm worthy of an alliance with the Qun. Anyway, leaving aside this stupid and trivial justification for it, assuming that their co-operation is going to be helpful in preventing the spread of red lyrium throughout Thedas, the Inquisitor could feel that saving the dreadnought and its crew was the first priority. It is not the evil choice but a pragmatic one. I would say here that I feel that the writers generally do favour a particular path as the "good" one in a lot of the decisions we make, even as far back as DAO. Usually it is more case that you are not penalised for taking a path that on the face of it should result in a poorer outcome even though you might consider it the "good" choice. I always cite leaving Connor alive whilst you go to the Circle and nothing bad happening as a result, so it was always the better option. There is also the choice over the Grey Wardens in DAI, where they actually flag up the possibility of something bad happening if you let them stay because Corypheus can still control them. I opted for banishing them for their own safety and our security, not because I wanted to punish them for being idiots, yet in the epilogue it results in a really bad outcome for the Wardens, whilst keeping them had no adverse implications when fighting Corypheus (you see Wardens with him no matter which choice you make) and they have a much better outcome in the epilogue. However, the decision with regard to the Chargers is the most obvious example of the writer favouring one outcome and not only condemning players who take the other but then actively punishing them for this in Trespasser. This latter outcome would be okay if they hadn't had Par Vollen disown the Viddasala prior to that confrontation with her when Hissrad follows her orders. Why? Hadn't they informed their agent that she was out of favour? Why was he happy to take our orders against the Chargers but not now in order to preserve our alliance with the Qun? Considering Par Vollen are happy to attempt a reconciliation and reaffirmation of that alliance in the epilogue, what are we to make of the outcome with regard to Iron Bull other than it being another instance of the writer punishing the player for not taking their preferred path?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 28, 2023 11:43:56 GMT
I don't really think there is anything to 'white wash' in the first place. While he is trying to do legitimate horrible things and while his logic remains more then a little suspect he has always been presented as a moral, principled character that sees no alternative to doing what is actually a pretty noble objective, bring his people back, just logic and aims is a little suspect, again I stress because people around here do often tend to get uppity when it comes to moral issues. But he openly admits to not wanting to do this and he has openly admitted to the Inquisitor of hoping to be proven wrong. This is not a black character, this is not Corypheus despite the comparisons, and this isn't someone who is shoving people into ovens for the shits and gigles of it. Such a moral fellow. Planning to deliberately mass murder the world to make up for his previous deliberate mass murdering and mutilation of the world. Hopefully i can leave him to the Evanuris' tender care. First off his first 'mass murdering and mutilation of the world' was not deliberate. Probably what makes it a bit sympathetic because he did have a fairly good plan, or what he thought of one, just out of either anger which made him rash or just failing to see the long term picture he failed to account for just how much damage the Veil would do to the world. From there though it does kind of touch on what I've already mentioned in that comment up there that he has given the Inquisitor a way out. He does not want to do this, extentuating circumstances perhaps (which I will get to more when I talk to gervaise) but we do know in the right circumstances he does have compassion and does want a solution where everyone is happy. At least I take it at face value. Then we have to deal with character flaws and flawed logic...which we can all fall victim to these things of guilt or anger contributing to us making rash decisions just in this case it was a really rash decision which he is then trying to undo. The scale of what he did and what he is trying to do is so hard to put into perspective because its not something that any of us have experienced or are really capable of but it is sympathetic because imagine if we believe that what we did led to the death of our people? Yes, I will stress that Solas's plan is horrible, he is arrogant...but he is also trying his darndest to make up for a mistake where he killed his entire people and brought about their down fall. Wouldn't that drive any one of us crazy? But he openly admits to not wanting to do this and he has openly admitted to the Inquisitor of hoping to be proven wrong. Only if he is on good terms with the Inquisitor. There is an alternative confrontation where he doesn't express any regret, admits he is only saving them because of the unnecessary chaos their death will cause (for all we know it might also affect his plans but he is not going to admit that) and that he stopped the Qunari from invading the south because "they offend me". Now, unless they are going to totally ignore this version and relationship with the Inquisitor (one of mutual animosity), they are going to have to develop his character in a way that is true to both. In TN, PW chose to go with the version where Solas was on good terms with the Inquisitor (or he is being an utter troll in apologising via Charter for his action, which of itself is not a positive trait), when he could have kept his portrayal more neutral. PW also admitted when talking about developing Solas' character in DAI, that originally he was meant to be more obvious duplicitous and in keeping with the Dalish portrayal of the Dread Wolf, but then the team decided to make him a more sympathetic character and adding the romance was specifically tied up with this. This did give a complexity to him that we don't find in many antagonists but I do worry about that message he gave to Varric in the Missing because it does seem to lean too heavily into the Inquisitor friendly version and to some extent contradicts his attitude in Trespasser. There he anticipated wholesale destruction but was going to carry on regardless and made no promise of trying to mitigate the damage, presumably because he knew from bitter experience that once you set these sorts of reality changing rituals into motion, you can't micromanage the outcome. So, were his words to Varric sincere or just to placate him? Is his conscience plaguing him sufficiently that he genuinely thinks he can control the outcome, a distinct possibility in view of his track record, which may only result in him making things worse. If the latter is the reason for his words, then that is not PW whitewashing him but Solas being true to his character that he thinks he and only he can be trusted to do anything and he is just becoming more deluded about his ability to control things. This is not a black character, this is not Corypheus despite the comparisons, and this isn't someone who is shoving people into ovens for the shits and gigles of it. Actually, if you take the Templar path and read what his servant says about him in the Fade, then Corypheus has more complexity to him than people give him credit for. Back in ancient times, his servant says that Cory was worried about a falling off in the faithful. We never did discover what was meant by this, since the Chantry version is this only happened after the First Blight started and the gods fell silent. He was cutting himself ever more deeply and desperately, suggesting that perhaps he was trying to contact his god through blood magic, as he had done in the past, but it wasn't working. If you think about this, if the welfare of Tevinter depends on the patronage of the Old Gods and the chief of them is no longer speaking to him, of course he is going to panic. (There are some further references to the silence of the gods in JoH but unfortunately no time reference, so it is unclear if this was before or after the start of the First Blight). So, did Dumat ultimately respond and invite him to the Golden City as a reward for his devotion, or did he go there in order to try and find answers? The servant makes it clear that Corypheus was never a cruel master and, it would seem from the account, was more likely to use his own blood rather than that of his slaves but he felt the situation demanded extreme measures. Does that not sound a bit like Solas? Then, he discovered that the Golden City was in fact black and no one was at home. The throne of the gods was empty. It would seem he was then ejected back to Thedas and since there is no record of him actually taking any part in the First Blight, I assume it probably left him comatose for its duration whilst Dumat was on the rampage and that he only revived after the death of his god. He didn't seem aware of this but was strangely attracted to the corpse, which was how the Wardens were able to capture him. Another thousand years or so of imprisonment follows, when he is effectively slumbering, and when he awakens he discovers that the Imperium is a shadow of its former glory, Old God worship has ceased and the Chantry has replaced them with a god and a story that he knows not to be true, from his PoV. He and his companions have also been framed as the villains in previous events, which he feels is unjust. He then sets about trying to rectify this and restoring the world he knew. Doesn't that sound like Solas too? So, whilst they aren't entirely the same, there are some parallels in their story which justify people drawing comparisons between them. A. Kind of a context is for kings thing but I am well aware of both the backstory you learn in the Templar path, being my preferred path, and the simularities between their characters as I have discussed. The thing is though that it is their differences in action and goal which do make them entirely different characters and types of characters for the purposes of the narrative. While I do have the same sympathy for Corypheus as Solas, both being responsible for the falls of their people in a way, both waking up after centuries of slumber to a very different world...Corypheus main objective was his own self aggrandizement and that of a restored Tevinter so they can once again rule all the primitives in the South and restore the proper order to the universe. This is very different to Solas who has no interest in godhood and also has no interest in seeing the Elves rule anyone given his stance on the Evanuris. B. I don't have as firm a leg to stand on here because you are right, his dialogue does change based on approval and the fact he only gets a connection to the Inquisitor is what causes him to have sympathy for the current inhabitants of Thedas does speak to the issue of what happens if he never makes that connection? However the mere fact that connection exists in any timeline does show he is capable of having a consiounce. Again I'm on weak ground here because I also can't see him really getting along with most of Inquisition's cast to use as a stand in for the Inquisitor but it is possible that he forms a connection with someone else between games which helps him see the people of Thedas as people. And that is pretty much my fear. People have their own individual problems that matter and are important to them and that they often have to solve before they can move on and help other people's problems. Someone living paycheck to paycheck for instance won't be able to neccessarily donate to charities and soup halls and what not on a regular basis until they become more financially independent as a real example. Now there is an upper limit to these situations to like there are some problems so trivial that yeah you should probably drop them in favor of dealing with the meglomaniac who wants to destroy the world. Which the genophage is a perfect example of that and I am about 90% on Wrex's side for the whole proceedings. Yes, the Reapers would've destroyed the Krogan and the entire galaxy but the genophage had been demonstrably to be just as deadly to the Krogan in the long term. And given the galactic history between the Krogan and the Council the Krogan couldn't have trusted that the Council would argue any promise to solve the issue 'later'...for various reasons...and the Council, led by the Salarians, would've very likely reneged on the deal in the first place because the 'Krogan have demonstrated that they are too dangerous to be trusted.' Hell even though the Quarians bother me far more then the Krogans in this case even they still have a point to get a planet to secure their civilians while the Fleet went to full scale war. Just in the Krogans case we did get lucky that work on a cure had already progressed to the point it had and with the Quarians that the Geth really didn't like the Reapers too much either and weren't interested in genocide. But this is the thing and I have banged on it before. When a Qunari soldier is attempting to kill you you're not going to care about some rumors that some Elf may someday destroy the world somehow. And since this is an RPG we should get many ways to deal with such questions but treating the legitimate problems with blanket arrogance of 'nah my problems are more important' shouldn't neccessarily win us any friends as it wouldn't in real life. And specifically as far as our companions are concerned many of them are in positions of leadership which also means that they have to be sensitive to the problems of their constitutents. That real world example you gave isn’t the best one. If anything it fits more on my side since you established that they want to help but cannot in any way. That’s not what I’m worried about. I’m worried about having them able to help but either not doing so or only conditionally. And that shouldn’t have mattered to Wrex. It never did before yet he promised to help, only when the time came he only would if we do everything he wants first. The Quarians were also complete idiots since they could have dropped their civilians off anywhere until the war was finished. It’s not like they’ll immediately adjust even on Rannoch. But no it has to be the homeworld. But didn’t use them because they are NPCs not companions (same reason I didn’t include the Council) and the only Admiral on that board that was is potentially Tali and she tried to get them to focus on the Reapers first. I’m not saying we should be completely dismissive of those other threats, and in fact support dealing with them as well. Same with me not having issue with companions worrying about their people’s problems. But it’s them abandoning the cause they agreed to support when still able to that concerns me. Especially the ones not in those super precarious circumstances. For example unless they act like Wrex I’ll be a lot more lenient towards ones like Dorian or Josephine compared to ones like Leliana/Cassandra/Vivienne, Sera, etc. As for your part responding to my comments on Patrick’s feelings towards the Qunari and people who sided with them or see the greyness, that wasn’t what I was talking about. Also also completely disagree with your portrayal of Solas, but that wasn’t responding to me so won’t respond further unless you desire it. I mean we have had the Solas conversation a few times already I think.  And really I think I agree with you probably on, hmm, conservatively eighty percent of this. I just think that he is giving us a way out of this situation but again not sure how much I want to get into it per se.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 28, 2023 12:10:04 GMT
Look, I'll be honest: I hate the whole "Solas as Corypheus 2.0" plot. I think it's lazy and dumb and repetitive. I think that the Dread Wolf should've been dealt with in Trespasser one way or another.
But that's not what we got. So rather than throw out the baby with the bathwater and completely write off DA:DW, I hope (however maybe futile) for something, anything more. Maybe Solas' monologue to the Inquisitor were misdirecting lies. Maybe Solas is addicted to chaos and desperately wants to change, but can't. Because if he, and by proxy the writers, were being completely straight, that's objectively bad writing. Especially since if he really wants to succeed in tearing down the Veil, it would have been easier to say nothing or lie.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 28, 2023 12:22:05 GMT
While I get the practically of scraping it to focus on making frostbite work for dai - it is a shame that da2 didn't get its expansion for Hawke to face Corypheus and the red Templars, allowing room for Solas to be the sole antagonist of inquisition (and probably escaped evanuris to be the antagonist of da4).
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 28, 2023 16:02:13 GMT
Look, I'll be honest: I hate the whole "Solas as Corypheus 2.0" plot. I think it's lazy and dumb and repetitive. I think that the Dread Wolf should've been dealt with in Trespasser one way or another. Dealing with Solas in a new game was never the problem; that was nicely set up with that final scene in the main game. The bit that creates problems is him confronting the Inquisitor and telling them about it. Maybe Solas' monologue to the Inquisitor were misdirecting lies. Anything is possible at this point. It does seem really strange him telling them what he has planned for the world and then imagining they would think: "Oh well, let's just eat, drink and be merry then, for tomorrow we die". In some ways it made more sense that he did confront an Inquisitor who hated his guts, particularly one that had punched him. Certainly, the Dread Wolf narrated by the Dalish would take a sort of perverse pleasure in telling them their efforts had all been futile in the long run. It is the Solas who keeps apologising and trying to justify his actions that is harder to understand, especially when specifically asked why his action is so necessary, he answers he can't tell them because the Inquisitor is too good at working things out, which suggests there is a way to stop him, we just haven't discovered it yet. Still, if that is the case, why tell the Inquisitor at all? Now he has them, or their allies, running around trying to find him and, presumably, risking them getting in his way and foiling his plans, whereas if he had left them in ignorance he could have got on with things undisturbed. Yet, to say, as some people do, that he wants us to stop him, makes no sense either because why not give the Inquisitor all the pertinent facts? Especially since if he really wants to succeed in tearing down the Veil, it would have been easier to say.nothing or lie. That's it in a nutshell. So, I'm hoping there is a good reason for this.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jul 4, 2023 0:19:56 GMT
I'm not really, when they name their planned next game after Inquisition's villain, I feel like assumptions that it'll be about Inquisition's villain are safe enough to make I thought it was fairly apparent what I was referring to, but I guess not. I disagreed with your clam that telling the rest of the story planned for DAI in a subsequent release (so, DA4) was "fixing" the prior iteration somehow, when all they seem to be doing is merely finishing the story they had planned all along. You can't fix DAI without, well, fixing DAI. But DAI was published in 2014, Trespasser in 2015. They aren't going back to "fix" DAI at this point, DAI is what it is, and they've moved on to the next entry in the series. And your other assumption, that they're wasting time developing this Solas/Dreadwolf/Elvhen Orb plotline at the expense of the "name game as its own story", when we have no reason to think that the Solas/Veil/Evanuris stuff isn't the intended "name game's own story". Trespasser tells us that the ELves were originally spirits, and that many ancient Elves could and did take on the form of dragons (and got in trouble for it, once the most powerful elvan leaders restricted the form of dragons to their own order of the Evanuris. So if Solas is planning on bringing down the Veil separating the physical world from all those powerful ancient Elves that can turn themselves into dragons strikes me as hewing pretty close to the title of the franchise. Would liberating a race of spiritual beings who can tranform into dragons NOT be a perfectly fitting outcome for a series titled "Dragon Age"?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 4, 2023 8:31:05 GMT
Would liberating a race of spiritual beings who can tranform into dragons NOT be a perfectly fitting outcome for a series titled "Dragon Age"? Just nitpicking here but the reason for the title Dragon Age is largely because events take place in the Dragon Age, as defined by the Chantry. It is also likely that if Solas were to succeed in his plan this would herald a new age, as alluded to by Flemeth to the Inquisitor/Herald. According to DG (I think), there was originally no intention for the Old Gods to be in dragon form but, as the name suggests, actual Arch-demons. The concept art even confirms this. Then someone pointed out that calling the game Dragon Age when there were so few dragons involved, did seem a bit strange, so the connection was made between the Old Gods and dragons and, presumably, the link with the ancient elven gods grew from this. So, the game was originally about a race of spiritual beings that became gods to lesser creatures in the world of Thedas, with the name of the game just being chosen because it sounded cool and because people are always attracted to anything connected with dragons (plus it grew out of the Dungeons and Dragons gaming world). That is not to say that once the dragon link had been made, the writers didn't run with it and that is why the dragon gods are an ongoing theme, but if Solas' story was always part of the ongoing narrative from the outset, it was due to the fact that he was an ancient being with a close affinity to spirits, not anything to do with the name of the franchise.
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Post by q5tyhj on Aug 9, 2023 18:22:43 GMT
Would liberating a race of spiritual beings who can tranform into dragons NOT be a perfectly fitting outcome for a series titled "Dragon Age"? Just nitpicking here but the reason for the title Dragon Age is largely because events take place in the Dragon Age, as defined by the Chantry. It is also likely that if Solas were to succeed in his plan this would herald a new age, as alluded to by Flemeth to the Inquisitor/Herald. Of course that's why the series is titled "Dragon Age", and no doubt how it came to be titled such. I was talking about the fact that it would be a highly appropriate ending given that the series is called "Dragon Age". And I agree, an ending along the lines I mentioned would strongly imply that the Dragon Age had thereby ended and a new one began. And I think these two considerations count in favor of the plausibility of this particular prediction... which means its only 98% likely to be wrong, instead of 99.9% likely to be wrong. 
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Post by cmdr Chobankovich on Aug 10, 2023 20:36:00 GMT
Dual protagonist? Absolutely no. The way I see it, you can have a deep, flashed out character or two half-assed ones with twice the work and half the charisma.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 10, 2023 22:02:04 GMT
Dual protagonist? Absolutely no. The way I see it, you can have a deep, flashed out character or two half-assed ones with twice the work and half the charisma. Then you need your eyes checked since quite a few games had done the former while having two or more protagonists. |
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Post by cmdr Chobankovich on Aug 11, 2023 0:34:32 GMT
Care to name those few, because I know a lot where it was unnecessary, poorly executed, pointless and hurt the story.
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And really I think I agree with you probably on, hmm, conservatively eighty percent of this. I just think that he is giving us a way out of this situation but again not sure how much I want to get into it per se. 
