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Post by vonuber on Nov 18, 2023 18:41:15 GMT
And once again, Lae'zel is not evil.
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Post by RelevantRevenant on Nov 18, 2023 20:05:12 GMT
Neither is Astarion.
THB,the whole argument about good vs evil is too black and white. Everyone, in fiction or real life, exist mainly in areas of grey.
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Post by river82 on Nov 18, 2023 21:01:17 GMT
Neither is Astarion. THB,the whole argument about good vs evil is too black and white. Everyone, in fiction or real life, exist mainly in areas of grey. People are too used to Paragon/Renegade or light side/dark side points
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Post by githcheater on Nov 18, 2023 21:25:38 GMT
Neither is Astarion. THB,the whole argument about good vs evil is too black and white. Everyone, in fiction or real life, exist mainly in areas of grey. Except for politicians, lawyers ... and CEOs of publicly traded companies.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 20, 2023 8:34:20 GMT
And once again, Lae'zel is not evil. Neither is Astarion. THB,the whole argument about good vs evil is too black and white. Everyone, in fiction or real life, exist mainly in areas of grey. People are too used to Paragon/Renegade or light side/dark side points People playing BG1 and BG2 like me, are used to it. And i like it for the BG franchise. And i am very happy Pathfinder have it. I wouldn't put it on DA or DOS. Because they aren't that way. What is Lae'zel then for you alignment wise?
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Post by wickedcool on Nov 20, 2023 12:29:19 GMT
That’s a good question on laezel
In some ways she is lawful neutral She follows a code and everything she does is for that by any means necessary She doesn’t lie or backstab No interest in wealth or personal power She hasn’t grown up in a society that fosters love
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Post by RelevantRevenant on Nov 20, 2023 21:32:22 GMT
Lae'zel reminds me of people I've met in real life. The kind of people who don't suffer fools, time-wasters or mistakes. I bet Lae'zel would be a good friend but a frightening co-worker. Friends you get to know better but not necessarily co-workers so she'd keep that brusque attitude.
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Post by fylimar on Nov 21, 2023 11:11:39 GMT
In DnD terms, Lae'zel starts out as lawful evil, but she changes or can change throughout the game and I would put her into the lawful neutral category later on. She is pretty cruel in the beginning and even racist towards the Faerun cultures, because that is, what her society taught her. She opens up after some evwnts from her own backstory, starts to question a lot of her former believes and gradually changes. She is a very well written character, that goes through a lot of character development.
Wyll is the most lawful good character, I have ever encountered. He would even have put Keldorn, Mazzy and Ajantis to shame back in the day. That is, why I level him as a paladin afetr a certain point in his story.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 21, 2023 14:45:29 GMT
In DnD terms, Lae'zel starts out as lawful evil, but she changes or can change throughout the game and I would put her into the lawful neutral category later on. She is pretty cruel in the beginning and even racist towards the Faerun cultures, because that is, what her society taught her. She opens up after some evwnts from her own backstory, starts to question a lot of her former believes and gradually changes. She is a very well written character, that goes through a lot of character development. Wyll is the most lawful good character, I have ever encountered. He would even have put Keldorn, Mazzy and Ajantis to shame back in the day. That is, why I level him as a paladin afetr a certain point in his story. I agree for Lae'zel.
Wylls story makes it hard for me to put him anywhere. I would agree if his story where a bit different and than he would be an amazing character. But as it is, it is difficult for me.
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Post by fylimar on Nov 21, 2023 18:19:08 GMT
In DnD terms, Lae'zel starts out as lawful evil, but she changes or can change throughout the game and I would put her into the lawful neutral category later on. She is pretty cruel in the beginning and even racist towards the Faerun cultures, because that is, what her society taught her. She opens up after some evwnts from her own backstory, starts to question a lot of her former believes and gradually changes. She is a very well written character, that goes through a lot of character development. Wyll is the most lawful good character, I have ever encountered. He would even have put Keldorn, Mazzy and Ajantis to shame back in the day. That is, why I level him as a paladin afetr a certain point in his story. I agree for Lae'zel.
Wylls story makes it hard for me to put him anywhere. I would agree if his story where a bit different and than he would be an amazing character. But as it is, it is difficult for me.
I actually like his story. He was a bit over the place storywise in EA, but in the full game, it works for me. And having the fiend warlock as the morally best character is an interesting move.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 22, 2023 7:12:10 GMT
I agree for Lae'zel.
Wylls story makes it hard for me to put him anywhere. I would agree if his story where a bit different and than he would be an amazing character. But as it is, it is difficult for me.
I actually like his story. He was a bit over the place storywise in EA, but in the full game, it works for me. And having the fiend warlock as the morally best character is an interesting move. I mean the pact with Mizora. A good Character and Mizora doesn't fit. And the story they created to explain this, is ridiculous for me. It doesn't fit with his character before. They should have choose between warlock and his backstory. They doesn't fit together in my eyes.
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Post by fylimar on Nov 22, 2023 17:03:03 GMT
I actually like his story. He was a bit over the place storywise in EA, but in the full game, it works for me. And having the fiend warlock as the morally best character is an interesting move. I mean the pact with Mizora. A good Character and Mizora doesn't fit. And the story they created to explain this, is ridiculous for me. It doesn't fit with his character before. They should have choose between warlock and his backstory. They doesn't fit together in my eyes. I think, it makes perfectly sense. He needed help and Mizora granted it in exchange of getting someone capable to do her dirty work. I can't find any foult with that. Good people can get in bad situations with bad people.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 23, 2023 3:42:51 GMT
Uhm. Lae'zel is definitely evil. She represents an evil culture which she adheres to very nearly without question no matter what you do in your playthrough or how she feels about your character personally. She endorses cruelty and violence as the first response to any resistance, and the murder and torment of children as part of a healthy upbringing. Her superiors murdering indiscriminately doesn't faze her at all, and if they told her to she would do the same. And most likely has numerous times, and most likely will again even if she converts. Just because she has the potential to develop a slightly more tolerant view than before and isn't completely beyond mixed feelings doesn't make her anything less than a brutal killer of innocents.
Same goes for Astarion. He might change somewhat in your playthrough, but he's still fundamentally a bloodthirsty sadist who sees almost everyone as toys and tools, and gleefully encourages anything that hurts anyone but himself. That's not a neutral character, and doesn't become a neutral character just because he falls in love or you improve his manners and self-esteem enough not to go for ultimate power at any cost in the end.
You can have good relationships with them, and do good things with them, and I guess if you babysit and micromanage them long enough they might someday develop enough conscience and sensitivity to start making something approaching ethical decisions on their own. But that's still quite a bit below the standard we hold even tolerably decent people to. The only Dragon Age companions who come even close are Zevran and Iron Bull, and they're nowhere near as bloodthirsty.
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mrobnoxiousuk
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Nov 23, 2023 4:08:43 GMT
And once again, Lae'zel is not evil. What does the character sheet state her alignment as?
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Post by river82 on Nov 23, 2023 5:36:59 GMT
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mrobnoxiousuk
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Nov 23, 2023 5:49:48 GMT
Pretty sure most Githyanki are lawful evil
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 23, 2023 8:19:44 GMT
I mean the pact with Mizora. A good Character and Mizora doesn't fit. And the story they created to explain this, is ridiculous for me. It doesn't fit with his character before. They should have choose between warlock and his backstory. They doesn't fit together in my eyes. I think, it makes perfectly sense. He needed help and Mizora granted it in exchange of getting someone capable to do her dirty work. I can't find any foult with that. Good people can get in bad situations with bad people. Yes i know. To real world for me. I give you an exemple: Apart from the fact that in the real world such a character is labeled as criminal and therefore as evil. The only exception from this is when the character is a child.
I think Wyll's backstory is very similar to Minsc. Can you imagine that minsc would do something like that. i can't. It's one side to want to save someone, another to make a pact to do so.
The reason why I like alignment. Because they are simple black and white. I don't have to think to much.
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Post by fylimar on Nov 25, 2023 10:16:08 GMT
I think, it makes perfectly sense. He needed help and Mizora granted it in exchange of getting someone capable to do her dirty work. I can't find any foult with that. Good people can get in bad situations with bad people. Yes i know. To real world for me. I give you an exemple: Apart from the fact that in the real world such a character is labeled as criminal and therefore as evil. The only exception from this is when the character is a child.
I think Wyll's backstory is very similar to Minsc. Can you imagine that minsc would do something like that. i can't. It's one side to want to save someone, another to make a pact to do so.
The reason why I like alignment. Because they are simple black and white. I don't have to think to much.
I'm not too much into black and white characters, I think, being on a grey scale is more realistic.
I don't know, what you mean with Minsc and Wyll having similar backstories? Minsc is a trained berserker of Rashemen, there is to my knowledge not much known about his upbringing.
Wyll is the son of a noble in Baldurs Gate, who was tricked into a pact by Mizora, by forcing him into an unfavourable decision - say yes to the pact and I help you save your city or refuse it and the city dies. That is her modus operandi and he didn't know, what else to do.
He is a genuinely good character, which gets clear, when we meet Karlach and he realised, that she isn't soem evil fiend, but an innocent tiefling and he refuses to kill her, knowing, that he will be punished.
He and Karlach are also the only characters always leaving your party, if you side with the Absolutists. All other companions will stay, even Gale, who is a genuinely nice person too most of the time.I also don't understand your example tbh. So he was tricked into this pact and that makes him a criminal? Warlocks are not automatically criminals or evil, their patrons don't have to be evil. Mizora could have turned out to be a Crowley like devil (Crowley from Good Omens) for example.
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helios969
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Nov 25, 2023 15:02:56 GMT
Well I like 'em both for different reasons. Things I like about BG3: It's cool being able to converse with animals...or the dead. And the charisma unlocks are astounding. There are a lot of different paths you can take to resolve quests too. I like the character creator better because what I craft actually looks the same in cutscenes...obviously the hair options blows DA away. I was hesitant to play because of the turn based combat but it ended up flowing pretty well and gives you plenty of ways to take enemies down...I still prefer DA2/DAI's style of combat (but loathed DAO's). I'm impressed with depth and breadth of the world...and the versatility of character builds/specializations. Things it sucked at was companion swapping, inventory management, and armor customization.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Nov 25, 2023 15:10:22 GMT
Pretty sure most Githyanki are lawful evil That's what I assumed based on her behavior...and taking into account DnD rules.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 27, 2023 9:11:32 GMT
Yes i know. To real world for me. I give you an exemple: Apart from the fact that in the real world such a character is labeled as criminal and therefore as evil. The only exception from this is when the character is a child.
I think Wyll's backstory is very similar to Minsc. Can you imagine that minsc would do something like that. i can't. It's one side to want to save someone, another to make a pact to do so.
The reason why I like alignment. Because they are simple black and white. I don't have to think to much.
I'm not too much into black and white characters, I think, being on a grey scale is more realistic.
I don't know, what you mean with Minsc and Wyll having similar backstories? Minsc is a trained berserker of Rashemen, there is to my knowledge not much known about his upbringing.
Wyll is the son of a noble in Baldurs Gate, who was tricked into a pact by Mizora, by forcing him into an unfavourable decision - say yes to the pact and I help you save your city or refuse it and the city dies. That is her modus operandi and he didn't know, what else to do.
He is a genuinely good character, which gets clear, when we meet Karlach and he realised, that she isn't soem evil fiend, but an innocent tiefling and he refuses to kill her, knowing, that he will be punished.
He and Karlach are also the only characters always leaving your party, if you side with the Absolutists. All other companions will stay, even Gale, who is a genuinely nice person too most of the time.I also don't understand your example tbh. So he was tricked into this pact and that makes him a criminal? Warlocks are not automatically criminals or evil, their patrons don't have to be evil. Mizora could have turned out to be a Crowley like devil (Crowley from Good Omens) for example.
The backstory isn't simular. But both are the heroic hero which save everyone. OK, that's my mistake. I thought he chose it and wasn't tricked. Sorry i get it now. The criminal part was a reference to the real world. If you are in need of money or so and you make a deal with mafia. Doing jobs for them. Even if you was a very good person before that, after you are helping the mafia you are a criminal.
That was when i thought Wyll chose to get help from mizora. I don't know if i understand your last sentence right. Maybe i need more knowledge about Patrons.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 27, 2023 9:48:26 GMT
Well I like 'em both for different reasons. Things I like about BG3: It's cool being able to converse with animals...or the dead. And the charisma unlocks are astounding. There are a lot of different paths you can take to resolve quests too. I like the character creator better because what I craft actually looks the same in cutscenes...obviously the hair options blows DA away. I was hesitant to play because of the turn based combat but it ended up flowing pretty well and gives you plenty of ways to take enemies down...I still prefer DA2/DAI's style of combat (but loathed DAO's). I'm impressed with depth and breadth of the world...and the versatility of character builds/specializations. Things it sucked at was companion swapping, inventory management, and armor customization. What do you think of Face options? For me the CC in BG3 do a lot right. But i like the Pathfinder clarity better (for classes). And some things i don't want to modify.
Do you like the Ending?
For me, the confusion is a big problem for combat. Some Let's play have help me a little, but i don't get it really. As long as i understand and be able to manage everything like in DAO, DAI, FE three houses and Pathfinder i am okay with combat.
And i agree with you on the things that sucked.
But for me the most impressive thing is that the world react to my race and even background. And please more classes in DA. I don't need a lot of classes, but i would love 3 more. mage - cleric fighter - fernkämpfer fighter
rogue - ranger
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
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Post by helios969 on Dec 1, 2023 17:53:43 GMT
What do you think of Face options? For me the CC in BG3 do a lot right. But i like the Pathfinder clarity better (for classes). And some things i don't want to modify.
Do you like the Ending?
For me, the confusion is a big problem for combat. Some Let's play have help me a little, but i don't get it really. As long as i understand and be able to manage everything like in DAO, DAI, FE three houses and Pathfinder i am okay with combat.
And i agree with you on the things that sucked.
But for me the most impressive thing is that the world react to my race and even background. And please more classes in DA. I don't need a lot of classes, but i would love 3 more. mage - cleric fighter - fernkämpfer fighter
rogue - ranger I liked the face options. A bit more limiting than other RPG's but I was able to craft workable characters for my made up backstory. Yeah, I loved the world reaction to race and background. I did a female Drow Cleric (Drizz't inspired) on my first playthrough and loved the suspicion I received. I'm generally fine with DA classes but I would like them to bring back putting points in the abilities such as STR and DEX...as well as have CHA be a meaningful stat that opens up dialogue options and alternative solutions. I always work the CHA when it's a significant part of the game.
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Post by fylimar on Dec 12, 2023 8:39:17 GMT
I'm not too much into black and white characters, I think, being on a grey scale is more realistic.
I don't know, what you mean with Minsc and Wyll having similar backstories? Minsc is a trained berserker of Rashemen, there is to my knowledge not much known about his upbringing.
Wyll is the son of a noble in Baldurs Gate, who was tricked into a pact by Mizora, by forcing him into an unfavourable decision - say yes to the pact and I help you save your city or refuse it and the city dies. That is her modus operandi and he didn't know, what else to do.
He is a genuinely good character, which gets clear, when we meet Karlach and he realised, that she isn't soem evil fiend, but an innocent tiefling and he refuses to kill her, knowing, that he will be punished.
He and Karlach are also the only characters always leaving your party, if you side with the Absolutists. All other companions will stay, even Gale, who is a genuinely nice person too most of the time.I also don't understand your example tbh. So he was tricked into this pact and that makes him a criminal? Warlocks are not automatically criminals or evil, their patrons don't have to be evil. Mizora could have turned out to be a Crowley like devil (Crowley from Good Omens) for example.
The backstory isn't simular. But both are the heroic hero which save everyone. OK, that's my mistake. I thought he chose it and wasn't tricked. Sorry i get it now. The criminal part was a reference to the real world. If you are in need of money or so and you make a deal with mafia. Doing jobs for them. Even if you was a very good person before that, after you are helping the mafia you are a criminal.
That was when i thought Wyll chose to get help from mizora. I don't know if i understand your last sentence right. Maybe i need more knowledge about Patrons. Sorry, I wasn't on here for a while. The last sentence was a reference to a character of Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, which was made into a tv show a while ago. WHat I meant was, that Crowley is a devil in that story, who is actually good, if snarky, and works with an angel to stop the end of the world (the biblical Armageddon) , because he likes to live on Earth more than in hell.
I just meant, that when Mizora came up to Wyll to offer the pact in exchange for helping him saving BG, she could in the long run have turned out to be like Crowley instead of the awful character, she is. Wyll took the deal out of desperation, but he didn't know, in how much trouble he was, until after he got to know Mizora better.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 601 Likes: 1,155
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Sept 28, 2024 13:42:32 GMT
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TabithaTH
601
Jul 22, 2018 12:32:26 GMT
July 2018
teatabitha
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by TabithaTH on Dec 13, 2023 15:13:43 GMT
How do the new endings from BG3 compare to DOS2? Having just finished the latter I feel like the epilogues were rather lackluster.
Edit: Also how do the romances compare? In DOS2, it feels like the devs gave all the attention on the ones they assumed would be most popular. At least of the 3 I tried, there was a clear difference in what you got.
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