FiendishlyInventive
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 24, 2023 9:14:01 GMT
If they provided any sort of post launch support for the Legendary Edition it might have sustained them a fair bit longer, and created more goodwill in the public eye, but now I fear for Bioware as an entity honestly.
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 24, 2023 9:22:09 GMT
Dreadwolf is going to suffer the same fate as Andromeda, isn't it?
And it will be the fault of EA bean-counters and suits, again.
This is such a boring and incorrect analysis.
What most likely happened is after BioWare lost SWTOR, they lost steady cash stream, so what followed are painful cuts. Since Dreadwolf is possibly close to finalizing development, they decided to let go off lower priority senior staff.
It appears primarily DA team was affected, as I haven't seen anyone from Next Mass Effect game being let go.
Which leads for me to believe as BW hasn't released a new game in 4 years and has lost SWTOR cash stream, they needed to change their development structure. Short term lay off 50 people to balance out the budget, medium term to release Dreadwolf( next year?) and long term with DAD cashflow they can focus on NME and return to steady timeline of releasing games.
Remember back in the day BioWare would release a game every year, which led to steady cash flow. This is not realistic with current era of game development, but being able to release games every 2 years( 4 years developing DA and ME each) would bring stability.
Loss of BW Montreal, multiple reboots of DAD, Anthem being disappointment and general mismanagement over the decade within BioWare has done damage. Oh and btw, if not for the EA suits, Anthem would have been far greater disaster since Old Guard BioWare heads just couldn't settle on a vision and just expected for everything to work itself out magically. EA executives had to intervene and force a vision for the game and it was a good call as what they made BioWare do was the best part of Anthem.
People cry for old BioWare, but it was old BioWare that led this company into this situation today. New heads were left to sort their mistakes out.
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 24, 2023 9:42:55 GMT
Dreadwolf is going to suffer the same fate as Andromeda, isn't it?
And it will be the fault of EA bean-counters and suits, again.
You mean be a good game? Oh, the horror! Thinking back though, Ironically, I feel that EA should've interfered sooner with Bioware especially with Anthem. They've surprisingly treated Bioware with kids' gloves over the years (I know microtransactions and all that, but it was hardly the worst they've treated a studio) but when Bioware management couldn't decide on a direction, it really lead to crunching and burnout. Sometimes you really need to kick upper management and force them to produce a game that you've invested a lot of money in. But still EA is corporate to its core and I don't like how they've treated long time employees as expendable. Sadly, they're not the only ones who engage in this practice. I'd like to add some reality check.
EA is a corporation. BioWare is a corporation, it was even before EA acquired them. Larian Studios is a corporation, even before working on Baldur's Gate 3. Some indie dev team with few people or just one person? Also a corporation.
No matter how much passionate game studio is to create what they love, they will always face material realities and will have make compromises for financial gains.
Another thing, we really shouldn't make seniority making you untouchable. It will be poor morale for junior staff that no matter what priorities are being made, senior staff will get to keep their jobs even if their future input is limited. All the while junior staff gets the boot despite being needed, which also leads to short-staffing so further poor morale.
After all Dreadwolf is almost a decade in development, so likely writing is mostly concluded hence why Mary Kirby was let go. It is not something BioWare or even EA wanted to do, that is two decades of experienced employee lost, but for sake of short and medium term goals, they had to do it. Perhaps they hope in future to rehire her when things stabilize, although it depends on multiple variables so it isn't likely, but it does happen.
Again, ME team appears to be untoached, so likely BioWare wants to conclude Dreadwolf development, release it( next year?), maybe do DLCs( too early to discuss any of that) and then focus on NME to return to steady game releases for cash flow. Afterall, material needs can not be ignored. Larian studio put BG3 under early access afterall, had a steady cashflow from early access purchases.
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Post by river82 on Aug 24, 2023 9:50:11 GMT
Dreadwolf is going to suffer the same fate as Andromeda, isn't it?
And it will be the fault of EA bean-counters and suits, again.
This is such a boring and incorrect analysis.
What most likely happened is after BioWare lost SWTOR, they lost steady cash stream, so what followed are painful cuts. Since Dreadwolf is possibly close to finalizing development, they decided to let go off lower priority senior staff.
It appears primarily DA team was affected, as I haven't seen anyone from Next Mass Effect game being let go.
Which leads for me to believe as BW hasn't released a new game in 4 years and has lost SWTOR cash stream, they needed to change their development structure. Short term lay off 50 people to balance out the budget, medium term to release Dreadwolf( next year?) and long term with DAD cashflow they can focus on NME and return to steady timeline of releasing games.
Remember back in the day BioWare would release a game every year, which led to steady cash flow. This is not realistic with current era of game development, but being able to release games every 2 years( 4 years developing DA and ME each) would bring stability.
Loss of BW Montreal, multiple reboots of DAD, Anthem being disappointment and general mismanagement over the decade within BioWare has done damage. Oh and btw, if not for the EA suits, Anthem would have been far greater disaster since Old Guard BioWare heads just couldn't settle on a vision and just expected for everything to work itself out magically. EA executives had to intervene and force a vision for the game and it was a good call as what they made BioWare do was the best part of Anthem.
People cry for old BioWare, but it was old BioWare that led this company into this situation today. New heads were left to sort their mistakes out.
Most of Mass Effects writers had already gone - Walters, Schlerf, Dombrow recently, Hudson, Lemay, Cathleen Rootsaert, Joanna Berry, did Kristhanson just get fired? Then he's another one. What Bioware looked like they've done is just gutted the writing staff, which raises questions what their future games will look like
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 24, 2023 10:06:11 GMT
Most of Mass Effects writers had already gone - Walters, Schlerf, Dombrow recently, Hudson, Lemay, Cathleen Rootsaert, Joanna Berry, did Kristhanson just get fired? Then he's another one. What Bioware looked like they've done is just gutted the writing staff, which raises questions what their future games will look like While this current loss is of concern for long term, however I do not think more junior writers and future new hires wouldn't be able to continue the vision of either ME or DA.
In fact it could be beneficial, as afterall most questionable writing decision done in BioWare games were done by, well, old guard. So while worthy of concern, it can potentially even be beneficial.
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Post by river82 on Aug 24, 2023 10:07:54 GMT
Most of Mass Effects writers had already gone - Walters, Schlerf, Dombrow recently, Hudson, Lemay, Cathleen Rootsaert, Joanna Berry, did Kristhanson just get fired? Then he's another one. What Bioware looked like they've done is just gutted the writing staff, which raises questions what their future games will look like While this current loss is of concern for long term, however I do not think more junior writers and future new hires wouldn't be able to continue the vision of either ME or DA.
In fact it could be beneficial, as afterall most questionable writing decision done in BioWare games were done by, well, old guard. So while worthy of concern, it can potentially even be beneficial.
They have to hire them first. As an exercise I went to the Mass Effect Andromeda IMDB page and they listed 13 writers and I'm struggling to find 1 still at the company EDIT: Sheryl Chee. Hooray. Hopefully they escaped the cuts.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Aug 24, 2023 10:31:31 GMT
This is the worst bit for me. To lay off so many is horrible, but to cut Mary Kirby and others from the old guard is, quite frankly, disturbing in regards to the future of the company. BioWare is gone. Also the start of that press release is so corporate speak it makes me teeth hurt to read it 😬 I've never really thought that this overly melodramatic argument is especially effective or helpful to any debate. BioWare still exists and they will continue to do so for the forseable future. Indeed since the 'corporate speak' has reaffirmed their commitment to both Dragon Age and Mass Effect moving forward then this still means they have years still. As for the team there have been several people which have been there for years and reprsent the 'old guard'. Fewer and fewer, sure, but BioWare still has people in key leadership positions which have been with the company as long as Mary Kirby. Leadership which will continue to ensure some continuity as they train the next generation, hopefully, of BioWare devs and continue to ensure the companies standars remain. Overly dramatic? They've just fired a quarter of the team, including most of the people who wrote the content I loved, and played multiple times. So I reserve the right to have a Victorian fainting fit, tyvm. Retiring is a very different vibe tho. The woman who wrote Varric, many questlines, Vivienne etc, was FIRED. That speaks volumes about the future of the company. I've always assumed the shitty dialogue and stories in Andromeda were written by the 'next generation'. If so, then the future is bleak.
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 24, 2023 10:39:50 GMT
Overly dramatic? They've just fired a quarter of the team, including most of the people who wrote the content I loved, and played multiple times. So I reserve the right to have a Victorian fainting fit, tyvm. Losing 15% to 20% of staff is still a far cry from a quarter. Geez, you're a moral booster for junior staff.
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Post by azarhal on Aug 24, 2023 10:49:36 GMT
So looks like SWTOR moving to another studio was bad for Edmonton as an ex-Dev expected when the news happened. Looks like BioWare was using the game revenue to keep Edmonton afloat and now they can't anymore so "cut". I have a question. If Bioware was using SWTOR revenue to keep Edmonton afloat, does this mean that SWTOR will be in a better place if Broadsword can redirect that revenue back into the game? We don't know EA deal with Broadsword, it's possible a part of the game revenue goes back to EA/Disney more than if it had stayed with BioWare. Also, only about half the team went to Broadsword in the deal so they technically have less people. But development should be more stable, since now the devs won't be taken to work on other non-SWTOR things (which happened all the time when they were with BioWare).
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Post by wright1978 on Aug 24, 2023 10:55:48 GMT
What the Fuck also Lukas Kristjanson who has been at Bioware since 1996?!? What is happening?!? And there are rumors that Sheryl Chee has been fired. I loved Sheryl's writing of Isabela. Hope she's not gone too. So a studio that's strength has always been story, is getting rid of all its good writers. That's going to end well.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Aug 24, 2023 10:55:57 GMT
Losing 15% to 20% of staff is still a far cry from a quarter. Sure but this isn´t just the those 50. Remember the 70-80 who moved from Bioware Austin to Broadsword to contuine support SWTOR and the ones who they lay off. And who knows how many people like John Dombrow left on their own terms. In this year lost many good, loyal and long serving employees. Who cares what the fandom thinks about this. The team morale is after pretty low and it will be an enormous efford to make a Dreadwolf a good game. It also doesn´t help that they failed to renewed their agreement with their playtester group Keyword Studios.
But yeah everything is fine.
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 24, 2023 11:09:55 GMT
Sure but this isn´t just the those 50. Remember the 70-80 who moved from Bioware Austin to Broadsword to contuine support SWTOR and the ones who they lay off. And who knows how many people like John Dombrow left on their own terms. In this year lost many good, loyal and long serving employees.
That was entirely on EA investors feeling unenthusiastic to back an old game, despite being profitable. BioWare was simply screwed as there was nothing they could say to keep SWTOR being developed.
That was a mutual failure by both groups. EA refused to agree to Keyword demands while Keyword refused to compromise. Negotiations failed and now both groups suffer.
Also both of your statements are irrelevant to my points.
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Post by river82 on Aug 24, 2023 11:16:05 GMT
I have a question. If Bioware was using SWTOR revenue to keep Edmonton afloat, does this mean that SWTOR will be in a better place if Broadsword can redirect that revenue back into the game? We don't know EA deal with Broadsword, it's possible a part of the game revenue goes back to EA/Disney more than if it had stayed with BioWare. Also, only about half the team went to Broadsword in the deal so they technically have less people. But development should be more stable, since now the devs won't be taken to work on other non-SWTOR things (which happened all the time when they were with BioWare). Like a lot of MMO players I'm scared of hopping into an MMO that will shut down xD I might bite the bullet and reinstall though, considering there's really nothing on the MMO horizon til next year (unless Chrono Odyssey or Pax Dei pull a surprise release). Thanks for the answer
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Post by Gwydden on Aug 24, 2023 11:18:41 GMT
I'd like to add some reality check. Corporate apologia, gross. Right now all my empathy is occupied on the folks who got fired, not the suits who "gotta" make the "tough decisions" that don't actually affect them. So Bioware's bleeding money, that much is easy enough to surmise from the following causes: - They lost some or all of their steady revenue stream in SW:TOR.
- ME:A and Anthem were mismanaged and performed less than well. Some might dispute that last point, but ME:A didn't receive any DLC and Anthem was shut down after a couple years, facts that I think speak for themselves.
- DA:D has been stuck in development hell for a decade.
None of this is the fault of the folks getting fired. I doubt they got to control whether the MMO stayed or went or the management of ME:A, Anthem, and DA:D's development. The irony is that the folks responsible are likely quite safe from being fired if not doing the firing themselves. Trying to spin this move as senior staff being fired for incompetence is bananas.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Aug 24, 2023 11:25:14 GMT
Also both of your statements are irrelevant to my points.
Ok right they are irrelevant. Wow well i strongly disagree. Both have a major impact on Bioware as a company. Remember when Bioware Austin supported and even created their own DLCs like DAI: The Descent? Most of those people aren´t not longer at the company. If they lucky they are at Broadsword. I do not know exatly how many people Bioware Edmonton and Austin had at beginning of this year but they lose more than 100 hundred.
And Keyword is hard to find a replacement that quickly without any interruptions so this also makes work much more harder for the rest of the Dreadwolf team.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 24, 2023 11:27:58 GMT
I've never really thought that this overly melodramatic argument is especially effective or helpful to any debate. BioWare still exists and they will continue to do so for the forseable future. Indeed since the 'corporate speak' has reaffirmed their commitment to both Dragon Age and Mass Effect moving forward then this still means they have years still. As for the team there have been several people which have been there for years and reprsent the 'old guard'. Fewer and fewer, sure, but BioWare still has people in key leadership positions which have been with the company as long as Mary Kirby. Leadership which will continue to ensure some continuity as they train the next generation, hopefully, of BioWare devs and continue to ensure the companies standars remain. Overly dramatic? They've just fired a quarter of the team, including most of the people who wrote the content I loved, and played multiple times. So I reserve the right to have a Victorian fainting fit, tyvm. Retiring is a very different vibe tho. The woman who wrote Varric, many questlines, Vivienne etc, was FIRED. That speaks volumes about the future of the company. I've always assumed the shitty dialogue and stories in Andromeda were written by the 'next generation'. If so, then the future is bleak.
No she was not fired, she was laid off. A deliberate abuse of the English language is not going to help this situation any.
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Post by DragonRacer on Aug 24, 2023 11:30:31 GMT
This is the worst bit for me. To lay off so many is horrible, but to cut Mary Kirby and others from the old guard is, quite frankly, disturbing in regards to the future of the company. BioWare is gone. Also the start of that press release is so corporate speak it makes me teeth hurt to read it 😬 Ehhh it's more of the old guard getting laid off rather than Bioware being "gone" but it's still sad to see. For some of us, BioWare was the old guard who gave it heart and soul. As more of the old guard now get carved away and cast aside as if garbage after 20+ years of writing some of our most beloved characters such as Varric... then, yes, for those of us who loved THAT BioWare, that version of it is slowly dying/gone. As much as you ask for people to understand you, it would be pleasurable if you would try to understand where others are coming from as well.
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Post by DragonRacer on Aug 24, 2023 11:39:21 GMT
What the Fuck also Lukas Kristjanson who has been at Bioware since 1996?!? What is happening?!? And there are rumors that Sheryl Chee has been fired. I think Patrick was listing all of Mary Kirby's written characters (Varric, Vivienne, etc), is my interpretation of the post? Not that I have seen definitie news of Lukas or Sheryl, nor would either surprise me. Seems they want to save money by cutting the oldest aka likely highest-paid non-management staff. You know, very logical for a story-driven studio, cut your veteran writers and all.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 24, 2023 11:40:46 GMT
While this current loss is of concern for long term, however I do not think more junior writers and future new hires wouldn't be able to continue the vision of either ME or DA.
In fact it could be beneficial, as afterall most questionable writing decision done in BioWare games were done by, well, old guard. So while worthy of concern, it can potentially even be beneficial.
They have to hire them first. As an exercise I went to the Mass Effect Andromeda IMDB page and they listed 13 writers and I'm struggling to find 1 still at the company EDIT: Sheryl Chee. Hooray. Hopefully they escaped the cuts. Most of this no doubt owing to them closing down Montrael.
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Post by river82 on Aug 24, 2023 11:43:15 GMT
They have to hire them first. As an exercise I went to the Mass Effect Andromeda IMDB page and they listed 13 writers and I'm struggling to find 1 still at the company EDIT: Sheryl Chee. Hooray. Hopefully they escaped the cuts. Most of this no doubt owing to them closing down Montrael. Nah, almost all of the Edmonton Mass Effect Writers have also gone. Oh if Lukas didn't get cut that means we have maybe 2 Mass Effect writers still around. Nice
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Aug 24, 2023 11:45:55 GMT
No she was not fired, she was laid off. A deliberate abuse of the English language is not going to help this situation any. Jesus Christ are we now at the moment there users have to use the right prober words? I think we all know that they are legal difference between firing and laying of somebody but can you really blame folks that they don´t care and used fired more than laid off? At the end long serving Bioware employees like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson are not longer at the company.
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 24, 2023 11:46:06 GMT
I'd like to add some reality check. Corporate apologia, gross. Right now all my empathy is occupied on the folks who got fired, not the suits who "gotta" make the "tough decisions" that don't actually affect them. So Bioware's bleeding money, that much is easy enough to surmise from the following causes: - They lost some or all of their steady revenue stream in SW:TOR.
- ME:A and Anthem were mismanaged and performed less than well. Some might dispute that last point, but ME:A didn't receive any DLC and Anthem was shut down after a couple years, facts that I think speak for themselves.
- DA:D has been stuck in development hell for a decade.
None of this is the fault of the folks getting fired. I doubt they got to control whether the MMO stayed or went or the management of ME:A, Anthem, and DA:D's development. The irony is that the folks responsible are likely quite safe from being fired if not doing the firing themselves. Trying to spin this move as senior staff being fired for incompetence is bananas. This is a childish response and also wrong. People responsible for mismanagement has left BioWare years ago.
EA also gives their studio great amount of autonomy, BioWare especially so.
As well at no point did I suggest they were fired for incompetence, this truly bad faith interpretation to what I have posted. Good and productive workers often lose their jobs because company shifts to different priorities, whatever for better or worse. In fact it's been pointed out significant amount of people who lost their jobs are writers or related to narrative in some fashion. Dreadwolf has been in development for nearly a decade, likely writing part has been largely concluded. However since rest of the game still needs to be worked one, largely due to soft reboot removing online components, priority shifted to conclude mechanics and polish of the game so sadly writers had to go to manage resources better.
This seems to be a sad reality and hopefully ex-staff will get new jobs quickly. As well perhaps down the line could be rehired back to BioWare if Dreadwolf becomes a success and with NME next providing long term stable financial outlook.
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Post by azarhal on Aug 24, 2023 11:46:28 GMT
What the Fuck also Lukas Kristjanson who has been at Bioware since 1996?!? What is happening?!? And there are rumors that Sheryl Chee has been fired. I think Patrick was listing all of Mary Kirby's written characters (Varric, Vivienne, etc), is my interpretation of the post? Not that I have seen definitie news of Lukas or Sheryl, nor would either surprise me. Seems they want to save money by cutting the oldest aka likely highest-paid non-management staff. You know, very logical for a story-driven studio, cut your veteran writers and all. Aveline, Sera, ME characters and Minsc were written by Lukas.
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Post by Gwydden on Aug 24, 2023 11:47:07 GMT
I think Patrick was listing all of Mary Kirby's written characters (Varric, Vivienne, etc), is my interpretation of the post? That doesn't quite work because I don't think Mary Kirby wrote for any of the Baldur's Gate (Minsc) or Mass Effect (Liam, Kaidan, Jacob, Grunt, Joker) games.
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Post by river82 on Aug 24, 2023 11:49:19 GMT
I think Patrick was listing all of Mary Kirby's written characters (Varric, Vivienne, etc), is my interpretation of the post? That doesn't quite work because I don't think Mary Kirby wrote for any of the Baldur's Gate (Minsc) or Mass Effect (Liam, Kaidan, Jacob, Grunt, Joker) games. RIP
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