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Post by ddraigcoch123 on Nov 4, 2016 11:43:43 GMT
Had another of those late night thoughts and hell I have no shame so I'm gonna share... again... The timing of the leaving of the Arc's (if we are going to stay aligned to the MW lore) and the level of secrecy around it will require greater or lesser suspension of 'belief' and/or 'artistic licence'. Now I'm not saying any of that is in any way deal breaking, lets face it we are playing a vid game it isn't the actual history of the Galaxy we're dealing with I just don't want it to jar to harshly. So the issues that came up were these 1. Every ending except the refuse will work to keep our AI mission 'safe' from the Reapers 2. If anyone did the refuse ending (hoist by your own petard BW) then the Reapers are free to garner all the 'public' information about the AI and at liberty to follow us to Andromeda and 'finish the job' - and please someone tell me why they wouldn't? 3. There was an understanding after ME1 that the Reapers used the Galaxy's own data and information against previous civilisations to hunt them down and eradicate them so again I'm left with the assumption that the AI has nothing to do with the Reapers and is done and dusted by the time their threat becomes a reality or else it would be heavily protected by off grid/off extranet secrecy So if it's 3 it raises a few other questions... Why 'new home for humanity' - which does sound like we are moving as a species wholesale or does have the 'lifeboat' edge to it Why would other MW species come along with us? To another Galaxy? When so much of the MW is still unexplored. We have Krogans with us but until the end of ME1 and Shepard's relationship with Wrex (anyone who killed Wrex on the beach does not deserve to go to Andromeda go back and fix that now ) they would not be humanities choice as a travelling companion? The Ark's are obviously based on the technology of the Citadel but we really didn't get much further than scanning the keepers in terms of our understanding of the Citadel and only became aware of the Citadel's capability as a relay at the end of ME1 and that it 'might' indeed also be able to be its own relay when the Reapers grabbed it and moved it the Sol system in ME3 So that was as far as I got before I fell into a troubled sleep... Obviously all of this is spit balling and filling in the void until we actually find out how the gods of our particular universe (aka BW writers) have arranged things so that our epic saga can continue without to many plot holes or lore loopholes
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Post by hammerstorm on Nov 4, 2016 11:56:48 GMT
I don't have any real answers to any of it. But there is already an exception to the Reapers "all knowledge", when the Protheans was able to erase the knowledge of Ilos and keep it hidden from the Reapers EVEN when they was around for a long time. So it is not impossible for the AI to remain secret from the Reapers.
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ddraigcoch123
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Post by ddraigcoch123 on Nov 4, 2016 12:01:40 GMT
I don't have any real answers to any of it. But there is already an exception to the Reapers "all knowledge", when the Protheans was able to erase the knowledge of Ilos and keep it hidden from the Reapers EVEN when they was around for a long time. So it is not impossible for the AI to remain secret from the Reapers. Totally agree but that's my point that 'we' would need to erase the knowledge of the AI or keep it secret from the beginning... sigh but soon we will know... soon
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Post by The Elcor Spectre on Nov 4, 2016 13:30:01 GMT
If "We" means us as Commander Shepard, I doubt it because I feel like we were too busy uniting the galaxy and throwing parties in a penthouse in the citadel
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2016 13:31:13 GMT
Had another of those late night thoughts and hell I have no shame so I'm gonna share... again... The timing of the leaving of the Arc's (if we are going to stay aligned to the MW lore) and the level of secrecy around it will require greater or lesser suspension of 'belief' and/or 'artistic licence'. Now I'm not saying any of that is in any way deal breaking, lets face it we are playing a vid game it isn't the actual history of the Galaxy we're dealing with I just don't want it to jar to harshly. So the issues that came up were these 1. Every ending except the refuse will work to keep our AI mission 'safe' from the Reapers 2. If anyone did the refuse ending (hoist by your own petard BW) then the Reapers are free to garner all the 'public' information about the AI and at liberty to follow us to Andromeda and 'finish the job' - and please someone tell me why they wouldn't? 3. There was an understanding after ME1 that the Reapers used the Galaxy's own data and information against previous civilisations to hunt them down and eradicate them so again I'm left with the assumption that the AI has nothing to do with the Reapers and is done and dusted by the time their threat becomes a reality or else it would be heavily protected by off grid/off extranet secrecy So if it's 3 it raises a few other questions... Why 'new home for humanity' - which does sound like we are moving as a species wholesale or does have the 'lifeboat' edge to it Why would other MW species come along with us? To another Galaxy? When so much of the MW is still unexplored. We have Krogans with us but until the end of ME1 and Shepard's relationship with Wrex (anyone who killed Wrex on the beach does not deserve to go to Andromeda go back and fix that now ) they would not be humanities choice as a travelling companion? The Ark's are obviously based on the technology of the Citadel but we really didn't get much further than scanning the keepers in terms of our understanding of the Citadel and only became aware of the Citadel's capability as a relay at the end of ME1 and that it 'might' indeed also be able to be its own relay when the Reapers grabbed it and moved it the Sol system in ME3 So that was as far as I got before I fell into a troubled sleep... Obviously all of this is spit balling and filling in the void until we actually find out how the gods of our particular universe (aka BW writers) have arranged things so that our epic saga can continue without to many plot holes or lore loopholes Even Refuse still works using my scenario that the only step taken during the Reaper War was to put a population into stasis (likely on Ilos... just revamping and using the Prothean facility there) and having that population wake up long after the Reaper War or Reaper Harvest has ended... unaffected by and unaware of any of the events of the ME3 endings. Javik survived the previous harvest in stasis, as did a dozen of the scientists put into stasis on Ilos. The ones that died did so because of a power shortage. All the current cycle has to solve then, between the events of ME1 and ME3 is the power shortage issue at the Prothean stasis facility on Ilos. As long as the Reapers believe their harvest was complete... they just return to dark space to wait for the next cycle. The tech for traveling to Andromeda is something for the stasis population to work out after they wake up... and they can be given any number of years to work that out. If dark energy is killing the Milky Way... that's their incentive to leave for another galaxy.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 4, 2016 16:48:35 GMT
Why does the mission really need to be "kept safe" for the Reapers? This is an issue that is trivially easy to write out of the picture. I'll bite, I guess, and speculate a bit to illustrate why I think this is not a big deal.
If we leave before learning about the Reapers, we are no threat to them, and not worth chasing. Life in Andromeda may not even be a concern for the Reapers at all. It certainly wasn't mentioned by the Catalyst. Even if the worst comes to pass, the Reaper War is lost, and the Ai is discovered by the Reapers, they'd have no impetus to pursue. We are no threat to them. We don't even know they exist. Their purpose and goal remains unchallenged.
At best (or worst?), they decide that the progress of the Andromeda colonists must be watched, lest they return some day, an advanced, unknown threat. We could've inadvertently dragged the Reaper threat to Andromeda, since they may very well have decided to "impose order" after assessing the chaos in the new galaxy. This likely would've been many centuries, maybe thousands of years down the road, though.
As I said, this is all trivially easy to write around and avoid. It's fun to speculate about, perhaps, but it wouldn't be good for the game to involve the Reapers any further. Their day is done. We defeated them (well, most of us did) and are moving on to a new story. I think it's best they are mentioned as little as possible in MEA; not at all would be great.
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Post by jackievakarian on Nov 4, 2016 19:48:44 GMT
Why does the mission really need to be "kept safe" for the Reapers? This is an issue that is trivially easy to write out of the picture. I'll bite, I guess, and speculate a bit to illustrate why I think this is not a big deal. If we leave before learning about the Reapers, we are no threat to them, and not worth chasing. Life in Andromeda may not even be a concern for the Reapers at all. It certainly wasn't mentioned by the Catalyst. Even if the worst comes to pass, the Reaper War is lost, and the Ai is discovered by the Reapers, they'd have no impetus to pursue. We are no threat to them. We don't even know they exist. Their purpose and goal remains unchallenged. At best (or worst?), they decide that the progress of the Andromeda colonists must be watched, lest they return some day, an advanced, unknown threat. We could've inadvertently dragged the Reaper threat to Andromeda, since they may very well have decided to "impose order" after assessing the chaos in the new galaxy. This likely would've been many centuries, maybe thousands of years down the road, though. As I said, this is all trivially easy to write around and avoid. It's fun to speculate about, perhaps, but it wouldn't be good for the game to involve the Reapers any further. Their day is done. We defeated them (well, most of us did) and are moving on to a new story. I think it's best they are mentioned as little as possible in MEA; not at all would be great. Completely agreed. I've had enough of the Reapers to last a life time. I want their story to be over now. Let other villains take the spotlight. I'm really hella interested in the Khet.
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Post by goishen on Nov 4, 2016 20:36:02 GMT
I'm not actually certain that the Khet are gonna be the biggest threat. Might be the remnants, ya never know.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 4, 2016 21:18:44 GMT
^ True. While its likely they'll be present, we've not even received official confirmation of Khet presence in the game, yet.
Three more days...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2016 22:42:06 GMT
Yes, no villains remotely resembling or echoing the Reapers.
Tied up with a pretty bow on top in the original trilogy, Andromeda needs to establish itself away from that, and explore new stories and characters and villains.
In that vein, I'm hoping secondary antagonists are better this time around.
Tela Vasir is the only one I can think of as being particularly good, strong enough that I'd argue she trumped the Shadow Broker in that DLC.
But Benezia, The Collector General, Kai friggin' Leng, were so underwhelming and poorly written. Secondary antagonists, or even henchmen, can be better fleshed out than those I'd hope.
Off topic, sorry, but I agree with the sentiment that the Reapers should have hardly any reference in Andromeda. I'm interested in the new villains, and don't mind if its the Khet or Remnant, another race or species as the antagonists if you will, as long as they are sparsely different in design and goal than the Reapers.
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ddraigcoch123
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Post by ddraigcoch123 on Nov 4, 2016 22:46:59 GMT
Yeah don't get me wrong I would totally prefer there to be hardly any reference to Reapers and certainly no hard connection between them and Andromeda.
And I'm really looking forward to more grey scale antagonists and villains who are hero's to their own people which I think we might get as we have moved away from the binary renegade paragon dichotomy.
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Post by Petroshenko on Nov 5, 2016 3:58:52 GMT
I don't have any real answers to any of it. But there is already an exception to the Reapers "all knowledge", when the Protheans was able to erase the knowledge of Ilos and keep it hidden from the Reapers EVEN when they was around for a long time. So it is not impossible for the AI to remain secret from the Reapers. Until they log in on extranet and see pictures of the Arks plastered everywhere and 17 million articles on the big journey to Andromeda. This was clearly not a secret project, the giant arks were built out in the open (that we already know so far) and it seems like there was an open recruirement drive too. There's no way to hide event like this. Bioware pretty much has to write it that some kind of a warning was sent to the Arks about possible danger in case Reapers win and decide to go after the Arks to finish eradicating the species.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 4:06:51 GMT
I don't have any real answers to any of it. But there is already an exception to the Reapers "all knowledge", when the Protheans was able to erase the knowledge of Ilos and keep it hidden from the Reapers EVEN when they was around for a long time. So it is not impossible for the AI to remain secret from the Reapers. Until they log in on extranet and see pictures of the Arks plastered everywhere and 17 million articles on the big journey to Andromeda. This was clearly not a secret project, the giant arks were built out in the open (that we already know so far) and it seems like there was an open recruirement drive too. There's no way to hide event like this. Bioware pretty much has to write it that some kind of a warning was sent to the Arks about possible danger in case Reapers win and decide to go after the Arks to finish eradicating the species.Or, even more likely, they just ignore the Reapers altogether. The Reapers weren't always a known threat. There is plenty of timeline in which to work that is Reaper-free. I'd use that time, were I writing this story. I'd ignore them and never bring them into this story at all.
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Post by Petroshenko on Nov 5, 2016 4:13:09 GMT
Or, even more likely, they just ignore the Reapers altogether. The Reapers weren't always a known threat. There is plenty of timeline in which to work that is Reaper-free. I'd use that time, were I writing this story. I'd ignore them and never bring them into this story at all. That would feel forced though. A news as big as galaxy-spanning megawar would be huge for Andromeda colonists or at least the government, even if it happened centirues ago and was delt with. To have no one mention it would be just obvious sidetracking.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 4:25:31 GMT
Or, even more likely, they just ignore the Reapers altogether. The Reapers weren't always a known threat. There is plenty of timeline in which to work that is Reaper-free. I'd use that time, were I writing this story. I'd ignore them and never bring them into this story at all. That would feel forced though. A news as big as galaxy-spanning megawar would be huge for Andromeda colonists or at least the government, even if it happened centirues ago and was delt with. To have no one mention it would be just obvious sidetracking. It's easy to write a plausible reason for severed communications, if as a writer you need to sever communications. Equipment could be damaged. Strange, never before encountered quantum phenomena could be encountered that disrupt even QEC. (Who'd have thought that was possible?) When you're writing the story, a scifi story, and you have years to work out the details, you can come up good stuff.
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Post by Petroshenko on Nov 5, 2016 4:49:23 GMT
That would feel forced though. A news as big as galaxy-spanning megawar would be huge for Andromeda colonists or at least the government, even if it happened centirues ago and was delt with. To have no one mention it would be just obvious sidetracking. It's easy to write a plausible reason for severed communications, if as a writer you need to sever communications. Equipment could be damaged. Strange, never before encountered quantum phenomena could be encountered that disrupt even QEC. (Who'd have thought that was possible?) When you're writing the story, a scifi story, and you have years to work out the details, you can come up good stuff. Severed communications would create a major topic for the story in itself. It's completly unplausible every colonist would be super cool not being even able to contact anyone in the Milky Way and never bring it up. Removing Milky Way from the context fully is not possible.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 5:23:11 GMT
It's easy to write a plausible reason for severed communications, if as a writer you need to sever communications. Equipment could be damaged. Strange, never before encountered quantum phenomena could be encountered that disrupt even QEC. (Who'd have thought that was possible?) When you're writing the story, a scifi story, and you have years to work out the details, you can come up good stuff. Severed communications would create a major topic for the story in itself. It's completly unplausible every colonist would be super cool not being even able to contact anyone in the Milky Way and never bring it up. Removing Milky Way from the context fully is not possible. I disagree. If I leave home for a galaxy 2.537 Million Light Years/600 FTL Years away, I know I'm never going home. Everyone I know is dead. QECs are precious, so the average Joe was never going to get to hop on the horn back home, anyway. (Who would they call 600 years after departure?) Only the highest levels of governance were going to be in communication with the folks back home, and they'd be equipped and prepared for the "what if we can't call home?" scenario. The more appropriate question is, what story purpose is served by having us call home to the Milky Way? How does that drive the Andromeda plot forward -- the plot about finding a new home for everyone in Andromeda? That plot isn't served by calling our old home, in my opinion. It isn't necessarily hurt, though it could be. It just isn't helped in any way. It would be needless clutter, and the first thing to hit the cutting room floor. I'm not saying that my way is the only way. I do think they've jumped through a lot of hoops to get clear of the original trilogy ending, though. It seems senseless to get bogged down by storylines and foes from that original trilogy, now. They chose to go to Andromeda precisely for this reason.
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Post by Ahriman on Nov 5, 2016 14:03:07 GMT
If you are the Alliance and spend billions of credits and some of your best troops on exploration project you'd be interested in seeing results of this. If you are a colonist you'd interested in technologies which are six centuriers ahead of what you have.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 14:20:57 GMT
Ballad of "Red" Ryder and the Helios Custer-F*ckers
Mass Effect: Andromeda Game Prologue ...
Come and listen to my story about a man named Red A poor N7, barely kept his family fed, And then one day he was shootin at some Merc, When Hackett called, “Ryder, got ya some work.”
Ark that is, stasis pods, intergalactic travel.
Well the first thing you know ol Reapers are out there, The kinfolk said "Red move away from there" Said "Andromeda is the place you ought to be" So they loaded up the Ark and they moved to Helios-3
Cluster, that is. Revenant vaults, aliens. The Helios Cluster-F*ckers
Epilogue ... after game credits ...
Well now it's time to say good bye to Red and all his kin. And they would like to thank you folks fer kindly droppin in. You're all invited back next game to this locality To have a heapin helpin of their Andro-hostility
Helios Clulster-F*ckers that is. Shoot some Khet Cast some spells biotic powers, Take your armor off. Y'all come back now, y'hear?
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 14:21:31 GMT
If you are the Alliance and spend billions of credits and some of your best troops on exploration project you'd be interested in seeing results of this. If you are a colonist you'd interested in technologies which are six centuriers ahead of what you have. That's real-world thinking, with which I'd agree. I asked what purpose it would serve for the plot. I don't think it would really help the game. They could write the plot in such a way that such a call works, of course. I just don't think it meshes with all of their efforts to avoid dealing with post-Reaper Milky Way. Why go there at all?
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Post by Ahriman on Nov 5, 2016 14:52:50 GMT
If you are the Alliance and spend billions of credits and some of your best troops on exploration project you'd be interested in seeing results of this. If you are a colonist you'd interested in technologies which are six centuriers ahead of what you have. That's real-world thinking, with which I'd agree. I asked what purpose it would serve for the plot. I don't think it would really help the game. They could write the plot in such a way that such a call works, of course. I just don't think it meshes with all of their efforts to avoid dealing with post-Reaper Milky Way. Why go there at all? The point of the plot is to get away from endings. I honestly don't see any point of speculating about it. They'll retcon stuff and that's pretty much it.
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Post by Petroshenko on Nov 6, 2016 1:46:42 GMT
I disagree. If I leave home for a galaxy 2.537 Million Light Years/600 FTL Years away, I know I'm never going home. Everyone I know is dead. QECs are precious, so the average Joe was never going to get to hop on the horn back home, anyway. (Who would they call 600 years after departure?) Only the highest levels of governance were going to be in communication with the folks back home, and they'd be equipped and prepared for the "what if we can't call home?" scenario. The more appropriate question is, what story purpose is served by having us call home to the Milky Way? How does that drive the Andromeda plot forward -- the plot about finding a new home for everyone in Andromeda? That plot isn't served by calling our old home, in my opinion. It isn't necessarily hurt, though it could be. It just isn't helped in any way. It would be needless clutter, and the first thing to hit the cutting room floor. I'm not saying that my way is the only way. I do think they've jumped through a lot of hoops to get clear of the original trilogy ending, though. It seems senseless to get bogged down by storylines and foes from that original trilogy, now. They chose to go to Andromeda precisely for this reason. There's a big difference between moving far away, which people do on a daily basis, and having zero contact with the "roots". Also, Asari & Krogan 1000 years lifespan says hi. And for every 10 people who will not care about "calling home", there will inevitably happen to be someone who cracks down and wants to go back or at the very least goes obsessed with what was left behind. That's how it works when you ship a lot of people somewhere, different things happen and they react differently, regardless of prior training and conviction to leave. We're not talking a mission with 5 carefully selected austronauts who know they will return 3 months later and can call home anyday. No it doesn't drive the plot forward, but the issue of roots is always an integral part of any expedition. Humans ain't robots who can switch on a flip to be 100% solely focused on forward. It would siply be realistic to raise Milky Way questions because it would happen in a situation like this, at least to a certain degree with some section of the colonists/people involved in the project. Do we want a plausible setting or one that circles around obvious topics just not to tickle bad memories of ME3 ending drama?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 2:46:33 GMT
QEC is a paired setup. Destroy one end, you've bricked the other end. You can't just build a replacement. They are unique pairs ... that's the entanglement part. QECs, absent some other form of space magic communication, is the only show in town.
The primary reason for the QECs is to report back to their respective governments, upon arriving in Andromeda ... plus periodic status updates on how exploration and colonization is going. From an operational perspective, if none of the QECs worked ... and that is highly possible ... it would concern those in charge of the Ai. The inhabitants of the Ark ships most likely knew of the Reapers, prior to departure and if ALL the QECs were silenced ... it would seem ominous ... but turn the Arks around and head back? No, they are not going to head back to the MWG because of this.
So ... let's say each Ark ship has two QECs (if you like, we can make it 20 or 200 ... IDC) ... in this example, one QEC has it's paired companion on the Citadel ... maybe in the Councilor's office for the race the QEC is meant to serve. The other Ark ship QEC is on the home world for the race it is intended to serve. Unless they were moved at some point, the QECs on the Citadel are toast. Similarly, QECs on Earth, Palavin and Thessia are toast. Surkesh ... I don't know. Maybe the Salarian's QEC survived ... or we simply don't see what happened to Surkesh and it is no better off than the others. Tuchunka ... don't know and frankly, I don't think the Krogan will care. Maybe I met different Krogan in my plays-through.
With respect for "ETs" need to phone home, the Ark ships seem to include families ... so who are they so desperate to call? I'm having trouble thinking that Krogan are going to give a flying pyjak about calling home. As far as the Asari are concerned, Samara was just fine not having any contact with two of her daughters for hundreds of years. Since time will not have passed, from the perspective of those in stasis, it won't seem any more than, "a few minutes" since they left. I doubt they will be hankering for a call, because of any sense that "it's been such a long time" will not be there.
The lack of dial tone (i.e. the QEC not having anyone pick up on the other end) might cause concern, but if these folks left before the Reapers arrived, they would not necessarily jump to the conclusion that the Citadel and all the home worlds were destroyed. But even if that is what they feared, they're not going back. By the time they got back, NO ONE they knew will still be alive. No Krogan, no Asari. Certainly no humans, Salarians or Turians. So exactly what would they be going back to, a Shepard memorial?
If individuals are non-functional because of their "feels," put them in charge of cleaning latrines on the Ark trip ... no clean, no eat. If they are too disruptive to the Ark, the crews, the Andromeda Initiative or a threat to the survival of others, rapid cranial insertion of a micro slug, accelerated using miniaturized mass effect fields should be sufficient to alleviate the problem. Wet cleanup on aisle six.
tl;dr: QECs aboard the Ark ships are most likely a thing, but lack of communication with folks in the MWG is not a mission no-go item and will not trigger a return to the MWG.
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Petroshenko
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Post by Petroshenko on Nov 6, 2016 3:04:01 GMT
tl;dr: QECs aboard the Ark ships are most likely a thing, but lack of communication with folks in the MWG is not a mission no-go item and will not trigger a return to the MWG. tl;dr point is that no one is talking about turning back but simply about the topic of Milky Way and communication with it (or lack of it/losing it) being rather unavoidable, it should come up naturally in multiple ways without any instant "omg lets turn back!" hyperbole. If it is actively avoided, it will feel forced and like a cop-out due to fan reactions to ME3. Nothing more. Everyone knows why they're "shipping" the franchise to Andromeda so the best way about it is to own it and work with it, within the narrative in particular.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 3:26:28 GMT
I did the overly long, spoilered piece to show a natural reason for the lack of communication. Also why the inhabitants wouldn't care too much. Now, if the destruction of the QEC paired device in the MWG did not occur, then communications would be available. Limited, but available.
I tried to address this comment of yours: "There's a big difference between moving far away, which people do on a daily basis, and having zero contact with the "roots". Also, Asari & Krogan 1000 years lifespan says hi" in the second and third paragraphs of the spoilered piece ... so my Asari and Krogan say hi to your Asari and Krogan.
Also, I tried to address this part of your comment: "there will inevitably happen to be someone who cracks down and wants to go back or at the very least goes obsessed with what was left behind. That's how it works when you ship a lot of people somewhere, different things happen and they react differently, regardless of prior training and conviction to leave" ... I addressed how to handle those that cracked. I addressed why operationally, the command structure would have a limited reaction to loss of QEC communications.
Why do I spoiler it? Because when it gets overly long, lots of folks won't want to bother with a post. It makes it easier to scroll down past my post, especially for folks with tablets or phones.
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