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Post by hookntackle on Jun 21, 2024 14:53:11 GMT
Yes "controversy". Sorry 'bout that. Since you're here - a totally hot take I've been meaning to get off my chest without joining in the shouting matches on social media:
I think it'd be the best for everyone if BW just stopped beating around the bush regarding the combat gameplay philosophy: It's ME (Andromeda)'s. This is a good thing - it was arguably the single best functioning thing about the latest ME game. It makes sense to build on good things you develop.
That's why you have two companions, one left, one right. That's why the focus on combos, primers & detonators.
That's why the power wheel is back and thank god for it - which is ME's variant of tactics mode. That's why you have three skills - yes only three, but they also fundamentally changed how these work. It's not just "three tricks until cooldown" - every skill had been reworked, most notably the biotics, to be much more dynamic - tap, double tap, hold down, mash, all the while interacting with the environment, too. They're not just another bonus weapon you shoot for the same size explosion in 30 second intervals (as they used to).
My point being, it's a system that develops a flow which allows for very intricate gameplay and -yes- tactics. Except it's not top down camera. That does not mean it is braindead button mashing. Personally, I welcome this step as it sort of "bringing the systems together", as Dragon Age has always been this raging identity crisis while ME was just gradually improved -ahem- altered.
PS I dare anyone to go back to DA2 and seriously experience the combat AFTER Varric's faux intro sequence, for what it actually was. I find it rather uncalled for to use it has the lower end of the "combat-IQ-o-meter" as it has been in the whole debate so far, because it isn't nearly as button mashy (beyond easy mode) and I personally found it had some of the best and most interestings skills/talents in the series.
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Post by theascendent on Jun 21, 2024 15:06:59 GMT
Well thought out and well reasoned.
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Post by Croatsky on Jun 21, 2024 15:17:07 GMT
I don't like how your control of squadmates in MEA was so limiting, but DAVG is going closer to ME3's approach with tactical menu.
This is good since MEA didn't really had tactical menu, just weapons wheel. So likely gonna go back to roots for Next Mass Effect game on that department.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 21, 2024 15:26:11 GMT
The only complaints I’ve seen about the combat system is that it’s not like BG3 lol.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 21, 2024 15:42:14 GMT
The only complaints I’ve seen about the combat system is that it’s not like BG3 lol. And i am very happy about that. This is an system i can quickly get my hang on it. For BG3 i have to studi first to get what i have to do. I am very excited to see mage and warrior as well. It looks much better than DA2.
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Post by TabithaTH on Jun 21, 2024 15:57:23 GMT
All I know is, this might be the first DA game I can finish on something other than lowest difficulty.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 21, 2024 16:05:40 GMT
MEA's combat was alright. It lacked the power wheel making the squadmates useless, or as I like to put it, more as decorations. Because it had no power wheel I ranked it last among the ME games. Now it's in this game except there's an ability wheel. During the gameplay, using the ability wheel wasn't available that early in the game? Why? Do I need to be at a certain level? Have enough points to use it? Better yet, why isn't it available from the beginning?
In all three previous game's, there were 3 companions. All could be controlled. I enjoyed the few times I controlled a companion to use for the whole game while the main character followed. In DAO, all talents were available to use. The same for DA2. DAI I could use up to 8. This game appears to only have 3, at least for the main character. Might be the same for companions. So what changed? I watched a youtube video with the person showing the explanation. It was an explanation......if that's what it wants to be called. I have not played every game out there, but how many other games offer the player to control their followers instead of the main character?
In the gameplay, the first encounter with baddies, I see everyone hopping around like grasshoppers. It seemed like the main character was doing more of that than anything else. I think what takes the cake is Neve. Seeing her hopping around. Does that mean there's a mage talent for jumping/hopping? Will the upgrade be to jump higher or jump further?
What I like to see, before the game is released, is combat from the middle part of the game, but as a mage and/or warrior.
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Frost
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Post by Frost on Jun 21, 2024 16:11:32 GMT
I hate the new combat system for mages! I don’t mind action combat or not having control of companions, but that doesn’t mean they had to gut the mage class and only give mages 3 spells to pick! They could have either had more spells available to pick when paused or, when not paused, had spell selections you could toggle through (like FF16) or keybind. Instead they gutted the mage class.
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Post by necrowaif on Jun 21, 2024 16:15:20 GMT
I think what takes the cake is Neve. Seeing her hopping around. Not so much hopping around as jumping RIGHT NEXT to enemies, as though she wanted to hit them with a melee attack. That prompted a couple shakes of my head, though it was still less jarring than Neve's flat delivery of her lines.
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Post by jennica on Jun 21, 2024 16:18:46 GMT
In the gameplay, the first encounter with baddies, I see everyone hopping around like grasshoppers. It seemed like the main character was doing more of that than anything else. DAVe's rogues are pretty much DA2's rogues on steroids, as far as animations go.
Edit: grammar
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Post by grallon on Jun 21, 2024 16:20:23 GMT
The only complaints I’ve seen about the combat system is that it’s not like BG3 lol.
DA4 appears to have been designed with console and controllers in mind. Not everyone enjoys the fidgety, jittery, jumpy stuff that usually comes with that. And yes, combat in BG3 is actually fun, as opposed to a slog you have to go through between plot points and cut-scenes. You can sit and plan your moves in details, and the execution is never the same twice. One of the few games where I enjoyed the combat system as much as the story. But I suppose it's a matter of temperament.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 21, 2024 16:22:36 GMT
In the gameplay, the first encounter with baddies, I see everyone hopping around like grasshoppers. It seemed like the main character was doing more of that than anything else. DAVe's rogue's is pretty much DA2's rogue on steroids, as far as animations go. On steroid's? Yes, though they might need to reduce the dosage a bit.
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Post by jennica on Jun 21, 2024 16:29:35 GMT
All I know is, this might be the first DA game I can finish on something other than lowest difficulty. At this point, i think i saw an equal amount of people who's dreading new combat because they're bad with action games and those who's looking forward to it because they're good with action games
Personally, i'm cautiously optimistic because i prefer action games. Finally playing melee classes will be fun and engaging to me. However, i can aslo understand those who for whatever reason dislike combat like this.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Jun 21, 2024 16:40:59 GMT
Better off using ME3 as a comparison because in MEA you had zero input into your squadmates other than telling them where to stand. I am keeping an open mind about the combat in DAV until I play it. I was never overly attached to the combat in previous DA games where I am too bothered by the changes but not being able to take direct control of different party members is a loss of control. That said if it is at least similar to the input we had in the MET it should be able to feel fine in a DA game.
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Post by Kendaric on Jun 21, 2024 16:41:29 GMT
The combat system is my greatest dislike about DAV. I play on PC with keyboard and mouse, I really hate how much the combat seems to be influenced by console & controller. I'd have prefered a tactical turn-based combat like BG 3/DOS 1 & 2 or a system similar to DAO. Of course it's too early to really judge, but I suspect I'll have to play on the lowest possible difficulty and I'll find it most likely extremely challenging to play for me. As an older player my reflexes just aren't as good as once were (and they were never great to begin with ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/uYQYVMAupPAfTXFFwWlB.png) ) and admittedly being disabled due to a stroke several years back doesn't help either.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 21, 2024 16:59:39 GMT
The combat system is my greatest dislike about DAV. I play on PC with keyboard and mouse, I really hate how much the combat seems to be influenced by console & controller. I'd have prefered a tactical turn-based combat like BG 3/DOS 1 & 2 or a system similar to DAO. Of course it's too early to really judge, but I suspect I'll have to play on the lowest possible difficulty and I'll find it most likely extremely challenging to play for me. As an older player my reflexes just aren't as good as once were (and they were never great to begin with ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/uYQYVMAupPAfTXFFwWlB.png) ) and admittedly being disabled due to a stroke several years back doesn't help either. Play like me on the no die difficulty. And you should be okay. And i really don't think EA/Bioware would do TB.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 21, 2024 17:12:56 GMT
I hate the new combat system for mages! I don’t mind action combat or not having control of companions, but that doesn’t mean they had to gut the mage class and only give mages 3 spells to pick! They could have either had more spells available to pick when paused or, when not paused, had spell selections you could toggle through (like FF16) or keybind. Instead they gutted the mage class. That isn't really right. Some spells are on the same spot as dodge etc. They said that the magic shield will be on the same botton as dogde for rogue. If i remeber right.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on Jun 21, 2024 17:15:07 GMT
That's why the focus on combos, primers & detonators. All 3 DA games had combos, "primers" and "detonators". Iit was a big focus of mage gameplay in DAO and a big focus got all classes in DAI. It's not a new focus for DAVe...
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Post by Kendaric on Jun 21, 2024 17:41:50 GMT
Play like me on the no die difficulty. And you should be okay. That's what it will boil down to, yes. Is it literally a mode where you can't die though or just a fancy way of saying "Hey, we have story mode"? And i really don't think EA/Bioware would do TB. Modern BioWare certainly won't, but the BioWare of old might have. After all, even BG 1 was planned as TB originally, it was changed since ATARI (who held the D&D video game license at that time) wanted it to be RTwP to increase sales. But I'd be perfectly fine with an improved DAO combat system, especially as DAO allowed warriors to dual-wield and use every type of weapon except for mage staves.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jun 21, 2024 17:59:27 GMT
The only complaints I’ve seen about the combat system is that it’s not like BG3 lol. Yeah only issu e I had reall ywas wit hthe speed of it but then I hin kwit ha lower difficult ysetting (as I'm guessing th egampla yvid was don eon normal/meduim difficulty) and a bit o fpractice I thin k I coul dhandle i tit'll likel ydepend on ho wmuc hdamage incomin gprojectiles d oon th eeasire settings
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 21, 2024 18:04:00 GMT
Play like me on the no die difficulty. And you should be okay. That's what it will boil down to, yes. Is it literally a mode where you can't die though or just a fancy way of saying "Hey, we have story mode"? And i really don't think EA/Bioware would do TB. Modern BioWare certainly won't, but the BioWare of old might have. After all, even BG 1 was planned as TB originally, it was changed since ATARI (who held the D&D video game license at that time) wanted it to be RTwP to increase sales. But I'd be perfectly fine with an improved DAO combat system, especially as DAO allowed warriors to dual-wield and use every type of weapon except for mage staves. I give you a direct feedback from a dev. He is here sometimes. [abbr data-timestamp="1718275265000" class="o-timestamp time" title="Thu Jun 13 2024 12:41:05 GMT+0200 (Mitteleuropäische Sommerzeit)"]Jun 13, 2024 at 12:41pm[/abbr] fairdragon said:If you can, say thanks to the people making the no die option possible. I love you . I will be able to play the game. Done! My team handles this stuff so I let them know 😊 We got the info were they said it is a no die difficulty. So it is deffintly the case that you can't die.
As for the improved DAO system, maybe try Greedfall 2.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jun 21, 2024 18:16:03 GMT
Better off using ME3 as a comparison because in MEA you had zero input into your squadmates other than telling them where to stand. I am keeping an open mind about the combat in DAV until I play it. I was never overly attached to the combat in previous DA games where I am too bothered by the changes but not being able to take direct control of different party members is a loss of control. That said if it is at least similar to the input we had in the MET it should be able to feel fine in a DA game. So am I really I'm not goin gto succesfull yjudge it her eI don' tthin k. Yes I was concerned about th espeed but I kno wtha tBioware's games aer generall ygoo dwit haccessibility o ra tleas thabve been in the past It's on eo fthe main reasons why I like their games and I thin kwit ha bit o fpractic eI can adapt t oi tbut I do thin kI'l need to pla yit eithe rin Story o rCasua lmode s I doub tI'd b eable t ocop eon norma lo rhigher
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jun 21, 2024 18:26:07 GMT
That's what it will boil down to, yes. Is it literally a mode where you can't die though or just a fancy way of saying "Hey, we have story mode"? Modern BioWare certainly won't, but the BioWare of old might have. After all, even BG 1 was planned as TB originally, it was changed since ATARI (who held the D&D video game license at that time) wanted it to be RTwP to increase sales. But I'd be perfectly fine with an improved DAO combat system, especially as DAO allowed warriors to dual-wield and use every type of weapon except for mage staves. I give you a direct feedback from a dev. He is here sometimes. [abbr data-timestamp="1718275265000" class="o-timestamp time" title="Thu Jun 13 2024 12:41:05 GMT+0200 (Mitteleuropäische Sommerzeit)"]Jun 13, 2024 at 12:41pm[/abbr] fairdragon said:If you can, say thanks to the people making the no die option possible. I love you . I will be able to play the game. Done! My team handles this stuff so I let them know 😊 We got the info were they said it is a no die difficulty. So it is deffintly the case that you can't die.
As for the improved DAO system, maybe try Greedfall 2.
Yeah genreall yI woul dsa yBioware's games have always been accessible yes thereaer occasions wher thing smight get a little hectic in them bu tfor the mos tpart the games aer manageable on the lower settings. Beacause on a couple of times I hav ecranked th edifficulty up t onormas land while I was sti ll abl et ohandl eth emooks I wa sfindin g bosses like Pride Demons a bi ttoo much. So generall y I stic kwith Casual mod ewhen playing bu tthen I pla ywi thkeyboard an dmous ewith a disability as ewl lit's no teas ybu tdoable with a bit of practice
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Post by biggydx on Jun 21, 2024 19:08:56 GMT
I've never really been wetted to any one type of gameplay system. I'm a variety gamer, so fast-paced action or slower turn-based strategy is something I can mold myself around with no problems. I think it's more that I need developer to be willing to go all-in with one in mind.
Inquisition was fine, and with the DAI multiplayer kits, I could at least see what they wanted to do from an action perspective. But much of the gameplay still felt prodding, and it led to some of my friends really not enjoying it.
This new system seems like it leverages faster-paced action more, with recent developer comments suggesting that prior abilities have now been baked into the basic attack system. I actually don't have a problem with this honestly. I do have an issue with us only getting 3 abilities to use at a time (barring the ultimate). I know there's also word about there being opportunities for other abilities to be used via gear, but I still want to wait and see on this one. I'm imagining the end-of-content-update accessories for DAI multiplayer.
If they were going to pull from Mass Effects ability, than it would have been nice if we could also swap out abilities that we shortcut. I also think a sizable number of PC players are going to potentially be unamused about being limited with their abilities again (especially for mage classes).
So for me:
+ Faster-paced combat + Abilities baked into basic attacks + What looks to be a fairly sizable skill tree
- Lack of additional skill buttons (i.e. limited to 3 active abilities) - Can't control companions (this sucks since - apparently - they're leveraging companions having more unique abilities) - I still miss the Tactics menu
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Post by colfoley on Jun 21, 2024 19:35:47 GMT
Yeah there has been a bit of a theme in some circles that no/ limited P&P will mean we'll have more useless companions or no tactics can't be further from the truth. Tactical decisions in real life happen in real time all the time. So I find such systems to be less Tactical and more cheating because if you have unlimited time to make Tactical decisions it really lowers the stakes. And companions still have their uses in a system like this as long as you are fighting together as a team. Again a military leader does not have the luxury of 'pausing time' to give orders.
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