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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 9, 2024 17:51:48 GMT
It says nowhere in what you quoted that those people believed Dumat was trapped underground which is the part I'm saying was a post-1st Blight addition. Oh I see. But we know the other Old Gods were located underground. Urthemiel's lair was even referred to in the Descent. Also the Architect found him and woke him up as he told us in DAA. I suppose what we don't know for certain if they were actually imprisoned or simply in Uthenera, sleeping. Incidentally, I never believed it was the darkspawn finding them and breaking in that corrupted them because of the fact that their song attracted them and the Grey Wardens can also hear it. If the Old Gods weren't blighted, how can Grey Wardens hear them when they haven't awoken and arisen as an Arch-demon? Also the place where Urthemiel had been was totally corrupted, which would be odd if it only acquired the corruption on the darkspawn finding it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 9, 2024 18:00:32 GMT
They thought their gods were in the Golden City. "I have seen the throne of the gods and it was empty."- Corydelulu. I knew there was somehing from Corypheus that showed he didn't worship a dragon underground, Dumat encouraged him to go to the Golden City and it is true they always thought that was the realm of their gods, just as the elves and the Avvar did, just calling it by a different name. However, it is still hard to know how they saw them as dragons so presumably they must have told them they were. The Neromenians believed their heroes were reborn as dragons but there seems no indication they actually thought their gods were, although given the Cult of Andraste in Haven believed she had been reborn as a dragon and worshiped her, there does seem to be a bit of a clue that perhaps all the ancient barbarians imagined their gods as dragons too. |
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Post by azarhal on Sept 9, 2024 19:55:46 GMT
It says nowhere in what you quoted that those people believed Dumat was trapped underground which is the part I'm saying was a post-1st Blight addition. Oh I see. But we know the other Old Gods were located underground. Urthemiel's lair was even referred to in the Descent. Also the Architect found him and woke him up as he told us in DAA. I suppose what we don't know for certain if they were actually imprisoned or simply in Uthenera, sleeping. Incidentally, I never believed it was the darkspawn finding them and breaking in that corrupted them because of the fact that their song attracted them and the Grey Wardens can also hear it. You seems to think I'm saying there is no dragon trapped undergound that gets turned into an archdemon. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying what is trapped underground isn't what ancient Tevinter was worshipping (or believed they worshipped). Corypheus, an High Priest of Dumat, refers to the Golden City as the seat of the gods and was surprised to find it empty. Multiple sources says that Old Gods whispered from the Golden City to the Magisters. Corypheus never think/talk of his god as being trapped underground. There is zero mention of ancient Tevinter worshippers mounting expeditions to go free their gods from underground. As far as ancient Tevinter knew, their gods were in the Golden City. The Mother reveals the Architect's experiments on Urthemiel is what caused its corruption in DAA. You clearly never asked yourself " Why do the Darkspawns free only one at a time?" while playing DAO and " Why did the archdemon corpse still called to Corypheus?" after reading about it in Legacy.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2024 21:07:02 GMT
Oh I see. But we know the other Old Gods were located underground. Urthemiel's lair was even referred to in the Descent. Also the Architect found him and woke him up as he told us in DAA. I suppose what we don't know for certain if they were actually imprisoned or simply in Uthenera, sleeping. Incidentally, I never believed it was the darkspawn finding them and breaking in that corrupted them because of the fact that their song attracted them and the Grey Wardens can also hear it. You seems to think I'm saying there is no dragon trapped undergound that gets turned into an archdemon. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying what is trapped underground isn't what ancient Tevinter was worshipping (or believed they worshipped). I think people associate Archdemons with Old Gods for two reasons - wherever they lingered, the Old Gods presented themselves to their worshippers as dragons, and Archdemons are corrupted dragons. The second is that after the Magisters Sidereal went on a trip to the Golden City their gods went silent and Blights began happening, implying direct correlation - if anything, it's a correlation that is convenient to enemies of Tevinter, of which there were many (+it also helps discredit their religion). To be honest, I don't think locations of the whispers really matter, given that the Fade is wholly magical, and also there's a strong suggestion that there are entities capable of being in many places at ones (Mythal in DA2: "Must I be in only one place? Bodies are such limiting things"). I'm also quite sure that the entities that whispered to their Tevinter priests were also quite invested in obscuring their true nature - and clearly, whatever goal they've tried to achieve lied in breaching the Veil and travelling to the Golden City, and not digging up things from under ground.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 9, 2024 23:04:46 GMT
You seems to think I'm saying there is no dragon trapped undergound that gets turned into an archdemon. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying what is trapped underground isn't what ancient Tevinter was worshipping (or believed they worshipped). I think people associate Archdemons with Old Gods for two reasons - wherever they lingered, the Old Gods presented themselves to their worshippers as dragons, and Archdemons are corrupted dragons. The second is that after the Magisters Sidereal went on a trip to the Golden City their gods went silent and Blights began happening, implying direct correlation - if anything, it's a correlation that is convenient to enemies of Tevinter, of which there were many (+it also helps discredit their religion). To be honest, I don't think locations of the whispers really matter, given that the Fade is wholly magical, and also there's a strong suggestion that there are entities capable of being in many places at ones (Mythal in DA2: "Must I be in only one place? Bodies are such limiting things"). I'm also quite sure that the entities that whispered to their Tevinter priests were also quite invested in obscuring their true nature - and clearly, whatever goal they've tried to achieve lied in breaching the Veil and travelling to the Golden City, and not digging up things from under ground. They linked the archdemon to Dumat because it looked similar (but corrupted) to how the Tevinter depicted Dumat, whatever the source for its appearance was. We got a lore entry about it. Side step. I'm not sure if back 2000 years ago, "the Old Gods" was Tevinter pantheon name. It seems a bit weird to me. The Golden City was an honey pot trap. Tyrdda Bright-Axe was invited there with promise of power and riches about ~1420 years before Cory and friends made their trip. The stanza speak of whispers coming from it as well.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Sept 9, 2024 23:49:39 GMT
I think people associate Archdemons with Old Gods for two reasons - wherever they lingered, the Old Gods presented themselves to their worshippers as dragons, and Archdemons are corrupted dragons. The second is that after the Magisters Sidereal went on a trip to the Golden City their gods went silent and Blights began happening, implying direct correlation - if anything, it's a correlation that is convenient to enemies of Tevinter, of which there were many (+it also helps discredit their religion). To be honest, I don't think locations of the whispers really matter, given that the Fade is wholly magical, and also there's a strong suggestion that there are entities capable of being in many places at ones (Mythal in DA2: "Must I be in only one place? Bodies are such limiting things"). I'm also quite sure that the entities that whispered to their Tevinter priests were also quite invested in obscuring their true nature - and clearly, whatever goal they've tried to achieve lied in breaching the Veil and travelling to the Golden City, and not digging up things from under ground. They linked the archdemon to Dumat because it looked similar (but corrupted) to how the Tevinter depicted Dumat, whatever the source for its appearance was. We got a lore entry about it. Indeed. They know the Archdemon of the Fight Blight is Dumat because his priests recognised him when he attacked Tevinter. Here's one of the notes you find in the Raw Fade in DAI:
"I made the expected offerings this morning, but the gods remained silent. The priests are frightened. All of Tevinter is frightened. Our gods have led our people for centuries. Now, they have gone still. Are we alone here in this world, no better than the savages to the south who beg for guidance from spirits? And what of the strange creatures who come from underground, like our friends the dwarves? These spawn of the darkness and the plague they carry... Why do our gods not protect us from this? Now the ground shakes. The statue cuts my hand as I fall against it. A great roar sounds. It is massive, shaking the temple market, and I see the silhouette cut the sky. It is a dragon. No, it is Dumat! I have made the offerings so many times—his form is as familiar as my own hand. He has returned in glory to destroy these darkspawn that threaten us, to lead Tevinter back to an age of glory and wonder! But no, his scales are sickly and mottled, his form twisted and corrupt, like the darkspawn themselves. He opens his great maw, and fire billows forth, igniting the market. The flames rush toward me. What did we do wrong?"
(Oh, and you're right - they weren't the 'Old' gods at the time, just the gods.)
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Post by colfoley on Sept 10, 2024 0:43:29 GMT
They linked the archdemon to Dumat because it looked similar (but corrupted) to how the Tevinter depicted Dumat, whatever the source for its appearance was. We got a lore entry about it. Indeed. They know the Archdemon of the Fight Blight is Dumat because his priests recognised him when he attacked Tevinter. Here's one of the notes you find in the Raw Fade in DAI:
"I made the expected offerings this morning, but the gods remained silent. The priests are frightened. All of Tevinter is frightened. Our gods have led our people for centuries. Now, they have gone still. Are we alone here in this world, no better than the savages to the south who beg for guidance from spirits? And what of the strange creatures who come from underground, like our friends the dwarves? These spawn of the darkness and the plague they carry... Why do our gods not protect us from this? Now the ground shakes. The statue cuts my hand as I fall against it. A great roar sounds. It is massive, shaking the temple market, and I see the silhouette cut the sky. It is a dragon. No, it is Dumat! I have made the offerings so many times—his form is as familiar as my own hand. He has returned in glory to destroy these darkspawn that threaten us, to lead Tevinter back to an age of glory and wonder! But no, his scales are sickly and mottled, his form twisted and corrupt, like the darkspawn themselves. He opens his great maw, and fire billows forth, igniting the market. The flames rush toward me. What did we do wrong?"
(Oh, and you're right - they weren't the 'Old' gods at the time, just the gods.)
Damn another kabosh on one of my interpretations to one of my theories. 
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