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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2024 18:18:02 GMT
This whole thing just reminds me of a pair of Lower Decks episodes, one set on DS9, the other on Voyager. One was a fairly nonsensical stream of constant references, cameos, and fan service that made the plot...well there basically was no plot. The other included references but bothered to tell an original story. Both were fine in their own way, a good cameo or reference or fan service can be a fun wink at the audience. But ultimately it can't come at the expense of telling a good story or moving the story of Thedas forward.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Sept 25, 2024 18:19:49 GMT
For the love of god spare me your nonsense. You clearly haven´t follow the (plus in my case also the german) fandom over the last 10 years or more because otherwise you would know that very many players still care about their DAO warden and wanting him / her back. But hey believe what want to believe i guess. It doesn´t make it right. its not nonsense but millenia old philophical ideas. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. And based on how often I've argued this point I am very well aware of how a segment of fandom feels but how that segment feels can't reference itself if it hopes to make a strong argument because large groups of people can make illogical arguments. So can individuals. The issue here isn't what is popular or what fandom feels is right just how Bioware wants to tell their story, and I see little in the way of logical rebuttals only an appeal to one logical fallacy or another. Especially when the ideas talked about Bioware are fairly common trend lines in the industry. We see it with Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Mass Effect,BG, and yet DA is supposed to be better at something the industry hasn't figured out? Especially considering things like this also happen IRL? Again spare me your philosophical takes on life and stick to Dragon Age. I guess you don´t believe me and i couldn´t care less but you don´t have to believe me do your own research in the Internet aka the DA fandom most people are attached to their Wardens.
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Post by bierkrug on Sept 25, 2024 18:21:28 GMT
From the IGN article; "But it’s also part of the advantage of moving the setting up to Northern Thedas, Epler says, with the prior games in the series taking place in Southern Thedas, a significantly different region both geographically and sociopolitically." LOL what is this? Thedas is like Korea now where nothing passes between south and north? If you bother reading the codexes about "current" stuff relevant to other countries then were the games are set, it's all mostly rumors. They don't have internet, news travel via merchants and travellers, spoken over drinks in taverns. Or take for example Brother Genitiv's codex about Nevarra. He had issues just getting to Nevarra to visit the country and he is an official Chantry scholar. And yet in DAI we flit all over the southern half of Thedas, from left to right, with a massive mountain in between. Various characters seem to make a not that troublesome trip from Tevinter. Slaves are traded over borders. Birds are used as messengers. Sorry, but the reasoning of north and south being geographically too divided is just shoerhorned in.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 25, 2024 18:23:36 GMT
I mean I don't care about Divine Cass. It's been a decade. But when I read the southern chantry doesn't care about Anderfels, Nevarra, Antiva ? Qunari and Blighted Pagan Gods attacking those countries is actually a serious cause and an Exalted March could be called. The chantry is not just Orlais/Ferelden/Free Marches. I know why they don't want the Chantry involved, because it was a whole thing in DAI and they want to move on, and they have their faction thingies. But at least make an effort lore wise to explain it in a way that make sense. I was annoyed by this argument too. Not only that, but Tevinter really wouldn't be interested in a mage becoming Divine? Not even in, say, a correspondence between the Black Divine and one of their cardinals, for example? Really? I suspect we're getting a ME3 moment where one character gets locked into being Divine, and the others are presumed overthrown or whatever. Or it's just ignored entirely I suppose.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2024 18:26:33 GMT
I mean I don't care about Divine Cass. It's been a decade. But when I read the southern chantry doesn't care about Anderfels, Nevarra, Antiva ? Qunari and Blighted Pagan Gods attacking those countries is actually a serious cause and an Exalted March could be called. The chantry is not just Orlais/Ferelden/Free Marches. I know why they don't want the Chantry involved, because it was a whole thing in DAI and they want to move on, and they have their faction thingies. But at least make an effort lore wise to explain it in a way that make sense. I was annoyed by this argument too. Not only that, but Tevinter really wouldn't be interested in a mage becoming Divine? Not even in, say, a correspondence between the Black Divine and one of their cardinals, for example? Really? I suspect we're getting a ME3 moment where one character gets locked into being Divine, and the others are presumed overthrown or whatever. Or it's just ignored entirely I suppose. thing is there could easily have been dozens of Divene's since Inquisition. Divine Victoria does not have to be in power to have any interest in. simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes_by_length_of_reign#:~:text=Popes%20with%20the%20shortest%20reigns,-The%20list%20of&text=Celestine%20IV%20(October%2025%E2%80%93November,calendar%20days%2C%20died%20before%20consecration.
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Post by fairdragon on Sept 25, 2024 18:34:47 GMT
Seems like the only three choices have been confirmed. It's a bit disappointing, I admit. Mostly because it probably means we won't get much of an update of previous companions and what they are up to ? I understand that the choices had minor consequences, but at least I like keeping tabs on characters. So there you doubters have your official confirmation.
Just those 3 choices from all the three games besides the fact for example that Morrigan and Varric are back. I don´t need Kieran in Veilguard but Morrigan should have mentioned that she has a son or not depending on DAO choice. And Varric there should a few minor dialogue difference if Varric and Hawke / Inquisitor are friends or not.
Edit: And its a shame that they don´t use Zevran besides the heavy Antivan crow focus and Fenris because of his Tevinter background.
As i said before i don't need much, but i have expected more. At least with Morrigan in the game. This is after gameplay (which they have made neutrale with no death option) the second bad information. But the thing that hurt me the most is the well choice. It feels for me like a Leliana situation and i am not a fan of that.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 25, 2024 18:35:46 GMT
The HoF is never coming back, people are going to need to accept that. It would be a nightmare and Inquisition-Hawke complaints amplified by x100. At best, they're dead in all timelines, whether because of the Calling or the Fifth Blight, and we'll see some sort of memorial at Weisshaupt. And frankly, I'd be fine with them being dead. The main theme of Origins is sacrifice, at some point the warden is going to have to pay their due.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Sept 25, 2024 18:39:23 GMT
The HoF is never coming back, people are going to need to accept that. It would be a nightmare and Inquisition-Hawke complaints amplified by x100. At best, they're dead in all timelines, whether because of the Calling or the Fifth Blight, and we'll see some sort of memorial at Weisshaupt. And frankly, I'd be fine with them being dead. The main theme of Origins is sacrifice, at some point the warden is going to have to pay their due. I want to think that most players have accept that HOF won´t come back in a physical role aka similiar to Hawke. But they should be mention like Hawke in a few Varric dialogues mostly if they are alive. And what DAI did this already and people seem to like it. So why not for Veilguard?
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Post by fairdragon on Sept 25, 2024 18:40:38 GMT
It's just strange how Solas was so dramatic over my inky drinking the Well, and now it's just....nothing. Huh. He freed you when he killed Flemythal... Then they should never give us this choice. I feel like all choices have consequences, but only this one i don't see any not even in DAI.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Sept 25, 2024 18:42:53 GMT
Then they should never give us this choice. I feel like all choices have consequences, but only this one i don't see any not even in DAI.
If the big spoiler decision is true what is the point in making this decision when the sequels doesn´t acknowledge it?
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Post by fairdragon on Sept 25, 2024 18:43:50 GMT
It's just strange how Solas was so dramatic over my inky drinking the Well, and now it's just....nothing. Huh. Yeah I think this is a recurring BioWare problem with choices that feel important at the time, but then in retrospect aren't. Like the Dark Ritual in DAO, when I first played I sat there debating for half an hour what to do, but knowing the effects now it is basically just a get of jail free card so why not do it? I think Well of Sorrows (and probably other decisions here and there) will similarly feel less important on replays going forward. But at least their was an outcome with the warden live and the soul getting to flemeth over Kieran. With the well we have only a dragon in comebat nothing more.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2024 18:45:52 GMT
It would be really funny actually. Seems Bioware is playing whack-a-mole with fandom and personal complaints this entire marketing campaign so its gonna be real amusing if you get to choose more choices through dialog in game.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 25, 2024 18:47:59 GMT
The Well choice had an impact in Tresspasser and let you translate glyphs on your own, so it wasn't entirely inconsequential.
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Post by bierkrug on Sept 25, 2024 18:56:04 GMT
It would be really funny actually. Seems Bioware is playing whack-a-mole with fandom and personal complaints this entire marketing campaign so its gonna be real amusing if you get to choose more choices through dialog in game. Copium for everyone!
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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2024 18:58:03 GMT
It would be really funny actually. Seems Bioware is playing whack-a-mole with fandom and personal complaints this entire marketing campaign so its gonna be real amusing if you get to choose more choices through dialog in game. Copium for everyone! not copium in the least. Again I am perfectly fine with the choices presented, a little annoyed with how they are presented though. And I also highly doubt it will happen just it would be hilarious if it did.
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Post by fairdragon on Sept 25, 2024 18:58:59 GMT
honestly some of these people can still make appearances. Cassandra and Dorian, they just don't have to reference anything quantum about their characters, since they for instance are both cannonically Alice. Long shot though. Dorian no problem. His personal DAI quest also doesn´t matter anymore. His father is dead. But Cassandra how on earth can possible explain that Cassandra or Vivienne aren´t Divines if for some players they clearly are? No Cassandra won´t make a return and that´s ok. She also has been in DA2 so a break is not that bad. Easy. They call her Divine Victoria and all 3 aren't in the game. Every gamer will have one of the 3 as picture. She will not be mentionted much anyway. I would set the but with Fenris, because he in Tevinter would have been interessting.
Edit: I know why they don't want the Chantry involved, because it was a whole thing in DAI and they want to move on, and they have their faction thingies. But at least make an effort lore wise to explain it in a way that make sense. I don't see them not involving the chantry only the divine will not show up. But i think we will see other people from the chantry.
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Post by lk13 on Sept 25, 2024 19:12:41 GMT
I still mantain that this could be relatively easy to "fix" through in-game dialogue options that reflect past choices without even the need of a "list" to fill in before the game starts. Obviously not before release, but if they want to open themselves to post-launch additions to the game recording several lines about the current Divine or who rules in Orlais would be a good opportunity in my opinion. Like, I feel that expecting cameos from Leliana, Cassandra and\or Vivienne and the current Orlesian emperor\empress might be too much, but I'd like some lines about how the Divine is supportive of the fight against the big baddies or how Orlais is surely oh so deeply concerned ( ) about the situation in Tevinter but sadly cannot offer help.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Sept 25, 2024 19:22:56 GMT
not copium in the least. Again I am perfectly fine with the choices presented, a little annoyed with how they are presented though. And I also highly doubt it will happen just it would be hilarious if it did. Copium is when you lightly speculate in a non-pessimistic way, apparently. What are you, a filthy minority of the fandom??? Re: The Well. I was expecting the knowledge in it to help counter/defeat Solas and/or the blighted elven gods. And the drinker could possibly be controlled by Solas due to taking Flemythal's soul. I also was hoping the old god soul would have some effect or consequence. Again, disappointing knowing now they won't (in DATV at least).
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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2024 19:32:34 GMT
not copium in the least. Again I am perfectly fine with the choices presented, a little annoyed with how they are presented though. And I also highly doubt it will happen just it would be hilarious if it did. Copium is when you lightly speculate in a non-pessimistic way, apparently. What are you, a filthy minority of the fandom??? Re: The Well. I was expecting the knowledge in it to help counter/defeat Solas and/or the blighted elven gods. And the drinker could possibly be controlled by Solas due to taking Flemythal's soul. I also was hoping the old god soul would have some effect or consequence. Again, disappointing knowing now they won't (in DATV at least). my biggest annoyance with the well choice is its a low key spoiler about where they are going in the game and where that soul ended up. Which is why I was a big advocate of them including a bunch of choices from Inquisition whether they mattered or not including the well. Like make it obvious that some of the decisions WOULDN'T matter by including some obscure ones that way we'd be guessing and speculating rather then knowing.
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Post by emissaryoflies on Sept 25, 2024 20:01:32 GMT
1. It depends. What is the opinion and why do I disagree? If the topic is about character and narrative construction, that's fine, no problem. I love talking about the art of writing, how you structure a story and the tools used to define characters, create tone, build toward complex ideas that let us better understand the human condition... whether it lands or not for the majority of people, and why. Have as strong an opinion as you want on that front, whether positive or negative. If the topic is about character creation and people are throwing out dog whistles like "female mutilation", or they're diagnosing and psycho-analyzing the writers from the comfort of their keyboard--I'm going to be abrasive and dismissive at best, or I'm just going to block/ignore them. Or there's people like the Frost guy, who seemingly just ctrl+v the same sentence over and over, saying very little of meaningful substance. That type of thing gets ignored. This is just me, of course. I, obviously, cannot police how people respond to anything, the only ones who can are mods, and they also have to pick and choose their battles because they can't go around deleting any conversation purely for being confrontational. How a message is conveyed is just as important as what the message is. That's a key element of rhetoric. Not only that, but if the authority of the person you're using to make your point is compromised, you suddenly have to defend your argument on two fronts instead of one. As an analogy, it would be like using a doctor to argue some detail about covid, only for it to turn out they lost their license/failed their clinicals.
2. Perhaps. Although it could also lead to bloat. To be clear, I loved the little one off lines in Inquisition referencing my warden, I loved the conversation with Hawke (although I know a lot of people were unhappy with their portrayal), I loved getting to meet Kieran. Morrigan's character arc, for me, comes full circle in Inquisition because of Kieran specifically. I'm sad we're not get anything like that in the new game.
3. I just don't see it, even going off the minimal amount of information we have. Peebee, sure. I can see some echoes of Peebee here, although Bellara already seems a lot more mature. But Sera is kinda her own thing, in general.
1. It's generally true that how a message is conveyed is as important as the message. The problem is that it isn't always true. If a doctor is brash, rude, and nasty, like House, but he ends up telling you something that saves your life, does it matter how mean the bad man was? No. 2. This one hurts. Three choices from hundreds of hours of gameplay. It's good to know ahead of time, but it dampens the mood. And apparently they might revisit these choices in future titles, if there are to be future titles. The thing that is misunderstood by some on this topic is that they think people who are skeptical want the game to fail or that they're haters of Bioware. In my case, it would be far from the truth. The harsh criticisms and vitriolic language might ruffle feathers, but comes from a place of passion and love. And to see anything that suggests that the quality of Veilguard won't live up to the rest of the franchise hurts. Ten years is a long time. And too many franchises have fallen off to be coy about the flaws of this title. And at this point, it would be beneficial if they delayed it for another year and put in some of those choices, corrected the Qunari, alienized the elves and other races and made them more distinct from Humans. Looks like it's too late. Hoping for ok.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 25, 2024 20:06:56 GMT
If you bother reading the codexes about "current" stuff relevant to other countries then were the games are set, it's all mostly rumors. They don't have internet, news travel via merchants and travellers, spoken over drinks in taverns. Or take for example Brother Genitiv's codex about Nevarra. He had issues just getting to Nevarra to visit the country and he is an official Chantry scholar. And yet in DAI we flit all over the southern half of Thedas, from left to right, with a massive mountain in between. Various characters seem to make a not that troublesome trip from Tevinter. Slaves are traded over borders. Birds are used as messengers. Sorry, but the reasoning of north and south being geographically too divided is just shoerhorned in. So tell me what's the birth name of the Black Divine. Or the current Archon. Or who rules Rivain. Who sit on the throne of Antiva... What's the name of the king of the Anderfels
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Post by Reznore on Sept 25, 2024 20:17:25 GMT
And yet in DAI we flit all over the southern half of Thedas, from left to right, with a massive mountain in between. Various characters seem to make a not that troublesome trip from Tevinter. Slaves are traded over borders. Birds are used as messengers. Sorry, but the reasoning of north and south being geographically too divided is just shoerhorned in. So tell me what's the birth name of the Black Divine. Or the current Archon. Or who rules Rivain. Who sit on the throne of Antiva... What's the name of the king of the Anderfels We don't know but they have diplomats who know all of that? People like Josephine exists because there's relationship between countries.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2024 20:23:12 GMT
Oh, this is going to be another Hawke situation where they don’t represent how a lot of players played them, isn’t it? Actually it’ll be worse since we have even less input now.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 25, 2024 20:25:13 GMT
So tell me what's the birth name of the Black Divine. Or the current Archon. Or who rules Rivain. Who sit on the throne of Antiva... What's the name of the king of the Anderfels We don't know but they have diplomats who know all of that? People like Josephine exists because there's relationship between countries. The point was more that outside a few very specific situational things, in-game NPCs don't talk specific. It's the Archon, the Divine (black or white) or the Queen of Antiva. Why should it be different in Veilguard just because we know who it is as someone who played the previous games? Dorian doesn't even give the name of the current black Divine when he comes up in one of his conversation. Unless something happened since 9:40, his name is Urian Nihalias and you need to read World of Thedas vol 2 to know that.
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September 2016
azarhal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by azarhal on Sept 25, 2024 20:27:43 GMT
Oh, this is going to be another Hawke situation where they don’t represent how a lot of players played them, isn’t it? Actually it’ll be worse since we have even less input now. I read an interesting suggestion on another place, the Inquisitor might only show up in some Solas fade memory. So whatever representation of them in-game would be tainted by how Solas perceive the Inquisitor.
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