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Post by smilesja on Sept 24, 2024 7:19:05 GMT
What's really important to the world state? Who the Inquisitor is banging, ugh. Yes, because romance is very important to a lot of fans of the Dragon Age series. In fact, it's a staple of the franchise and many Bioware games general. I mean, half of the discourse on this subsection of the site is talking about how the female Elven Inquisitor will deal with Solas if they're romanced. I've seen plenty of people STILL talk about being dumped by Allistair, betrayed by Anders, and forced to see Solas destroy the world. I mean for me, I still remember the sweet romance with Merrill and Hawke and the Inquisitor and Cass. For all their faults lately, Bioware has always nailed romance to the point where folks look back fondly at them.
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Post by TabithaTH on Sept 24, 2024 7:30:20 GMT
What's really important to the world state? Who the Inquisitor is banging, ugh. Maybe you get a short mention of what the LI is doing and why they aren’t there, but honestly (as somebody else already mentioned) I feel like this is probably just here for Solavellans.
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Post by bierkrug on Sept 24, 2024 8:01:17 GMT
Ten years later I barely remember my Inquisitor's first name. I'd be quite content if any references to previous games would be kept short and small in number. Just like Hawke in DAI I will consider the Inquisitor as a BioWare NPC vaguely inspired by a character I played quite a while ago. There is a big subset of fans that still feels attached to all of these characters. Most of Bioware's reputation was how great they handled characters and made players care about them. They are throwing all of that out the window to please some modern audience. That is some way to treat your loyal fans that kept going for ten years while you couldn't get your shit together.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 24, 2024 8:03:52 GMT
Ten years later I barely remember my Inquisitor's first name. I'd be quite content if any references to previous games would be kept short and small in number. Just like Hawke in DAI I will consider the Inquisitor as a BioWare NPC vaguely inspired by a character I played quite a while ago. There is a big subset of fans that still feels attached to all of these characters. Most of Bioware's reputation was how great they handled characters and made players care about them. They are throwing all of that out the window to please some modern audience. That is some way to treat your loyal fans that kept going for ten years while you couldn't get your shit together. says who? Given DAI is my favorite of their casts this group looks positively delightful and interesting. Even a few very good looking women if you are into that sort of thing.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 24, 2024 8:17:05 GMT
Ah yes, Alistair, the swooping is bad guy; or Loghain, the person who spends most of Ostagar breaking the forth wall and mean mugging the camera. Not to mention poorly constructed characters like Oghren, or Swiftrunner, or even joke characters like Sanadal that people randomly decide are amazing despite being little more than a meme. (Anora is also not a particularly well written or fleshed out character, but I'm just going to pretend that was a slip of the keyboard and not actually serious.) All the epitome of great writing, right there. It's really not hard to make something sound dismissive if you've already decided you don't like it. I was referring to Inquisition’s treatment of those characters, but go off. It’s the fact that Inquisition cared enough to include a choice that not many people made. You can argue day and night about the quality that game but you can feel the effort that went into it. A good game. A good Dragon Age game. I’ve waited ten years for this and with the totality of everything shown thus far, I’d be a fool not to be skeptical. If you want to be skeptical, be skeptical. What people want out of the game is their own business. With that said… This feels like a false equivalency to me. I mean for one thing, every choice you mentioned is part of the critical path, so I’d hardly call them ‘choices barely anyone made.’ Even ignoring that, I’m as disappointed as anyone about the decision, but that has nothing to do with the amount of effort BioWare put into Veilguard. Two things can be true: 1. BioWare made a conscious design choice to better ease new players into the game, creating bad optics for returning players and 2. They still put a ton of work into the game, if only because making games is incredibly hard. And for the record, if you want your meaning to parse better, maybe don’t start with a long screed that suggests Marvel invented quips (lol) or sweeping generalizations like Sera and Bellara are similar. Sera and Bellara have about as much in common as Sera and Alistair—that is to say, none at all. Well, okay, they can all use bows, so there’s that I guess.
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 24, 2024 8:23:48 GMT
Ten years later I barely remember my Inquisitor's first name. I'd be quite content if any references to previous games would be kept short and small in number. Just like Hawke in DAI I will consider the Inquisitor as a BioWare NPC vaguely inspired by a character I played quite a while ago. There is a big subset of fans that still feels attached to all of these characters. Most of Bioware's reputation was how great they handled characters and made players care about them. They are throwing all of that out the window to please some modern audience. That is some way to treat your loyal fans that kept going for ten years while you couldn't get your shit together. I get that, I really do. The DA protagonists I played were my characters - I created them, I made decisions for them and all - until the curtain came down and the credits rolled. Then they became BioWare's characters. BioWare decided what happened to the Warden, Hawke and the Inquisitor afterwards. I was just at the helm during their time of glory, within the scope BioWare's game gave me. But if I can't control my returning former protagonist then it's not really mine again anyway, no matter how many decisions are being imported. And the new protagonist, Rook in this case, doesn't know my previous "incarnation" anyway - I can't imagine, for example, my Rook caring about who the Inquisitor is/was romantically involved with, which seems to be one of the few things you can pick. There's darkspawn out there eating people, I don't have time for gossip.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 24, 2024 8:43:26 GMT
While choice and consequences are nice but the most important thing is telling a cohesive story. Which can be weighed down by references and cameos. Again would be nice but the vast majority of choices in Inquisition wouldn't necessarily matter ten years later and half a continent away.
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Post by emissaryoflies on Sept 24, 2024 10:07:17 GMT
I was referring to Inquisition’s treatment of those characters, but go off. It’s the fact that Inquisition cared enough to include a choice that not many people made. You can argue day and night about the quality that game but you can feel the effort that went into it. A good game. A good Dragon Age game. I’ve waited ten years for this and with the totality of everything shown thus far, I’d be a fool not to be skeptical. If you want to be skeptical, be skeptical. What people want out of the game is their own business. With that said… This feels like a false equivalency to me. I mean for one thing, every choice you mentioned is part of the critical path, so I’d hardly call them ‘choices barely anyone made.’ Even ignoring that, I’m as disappointed as anyone about the decision, but that has nothing to do with the amount of effort BioWare put into Veilguard. Two things can be true: 1. BioWare made a conscious design choice to better ease new players into the game, creating bad optics for returning players and 2. They still put a ton of work into the game, if only because making games is incredibly hard. And for the record, if you want your meaning to parse better, maybe don’t start with a long screed that suggests Marvel invented quips (lol) or sweeping generalizations like Sera and Bellara are similar. Sera and Bellara have about as much in common as Sera and Alistair—that is to say, none at all. Well, okay, they can all use bows, so there’s that I guess. What people want out of the game is their own business most of the time. It clearly isn't always the case. Choices barely anyone made, making Loghain a warden was indeed a choice made by a small number of people. It was far from popular. I digress. The point is that these choices had lots of nuances that Inquisition respected. Down to whether the father was Alistair, whether he was alive, whether he was a grey warden, a king. Just for example. That's it. That's the whole point. And Veilguard looks like its not going to follow suit or be a downgrade in that department. That's it. That's the point. And because I'm in a good mood and enjoy your candor, I'll grant that they worked very hard on the game. I'll grant that they cared about it as if it were a babe. Fine. It changes absolutely nothing about the product. The problems are still there. It's just a matter of the degree of severity. I'm hoping on ok. Not even good. Just ok. And they're making me doubt even that. Making games is hard? Lots of things are hard. My job is hard, your job is hard, his job is hard, Perry from accounting's job is hard. Not a big deal. It's not like they had 10 years or anything. I'll bet money that Sera and Bellara are the same archetype of 'zany' LoL IM SO WEIRD AND QUIRKY' cliched nonsense. If that introduction scene is anything to go by, I wish you luck in the wager. Hope that's clear enough for ya.
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Post by bierkrug on Sept 24, 2024 10:24:10 GMT
says who? Given DAI is my favorite of their casts this group looks positively delightful and interesting. Even a few very good looking women if you are into that sort of thing. Me, for one. And taking all the saltiness about the imported decisions across reddit, youtube and co into account, plenty more people too. But if I can't control my returning former protagonist then it's not really mine again anyway, no matter how many decisions are being imported. I still like to know how they're (my ex-MCs and their companions) are doing. I would have liked to know whether HoF found a taint cure for one. This can be done via letters and codices with little effort from the developer but even that was too much apparently.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 24, 2024 10:45:48 GMT
says who? Given DAI is my favorite of their casts this group looks positively delightful and interesting. Even a few very good looking women if you are into that sort of thing. Me, for one. And taking all the saltiness about the imported decisions across reddit, youtube and co into account, plenty more people too. But if I can't control my returning former protagonist then it's not really mine again anyway, no matter how many decisions are being imported. I still like to know how they're (my ex-MCs and their companions) are doing. I would have liked to know whether HoF found a taint cure for one. This can be done via letters and codices with little effort from the developer but even that was too much apparently. What is the relevance of those choices? Its been 22 years since Ostagar. How many of these people are dead? Retired? Hearing the calling? Would the people or the events of the Imperium really care about said choices? DA 2 already was a bit weird in how random choices were just showed up and made cameos of people just randomly showing up in Kirkwall because the proatagonist was there. And the other thing is that these choices can be referenced or standardized in any number of ways through letters or codicies. Maybe someone else cured the calling? The fact remains that it was very unlikely that most of our choices in Inquisition would have mattered let alone DA 2 and Origins. Even the choice with Mythal makes a fair bit of sense to not be referenced given what happened at the end of Inquisition and how its now likely to go in Veilguard. Heck that is one of the reasons why I really wish they did go big or go home, whether or not the choices mattered or not, that way we wouldn't have gotten onto their trail and we know pretty much how certain plot points are going to go because the 'quantum' of them have been collapsed.
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Post by bierkrug on Sept 24, 2024 11:03:05 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Sept 24, 2024 11:04:53 GMT
Just what I said. And I agree. Actually reading through the article and I agree 110%. The only thing that matters is if these characters have meaningful contributions to make. Trying to stretch on a character's story that already ended/ had a satisfactory ending is a recipe for disaster.
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Post by Envisionary on Sept 24, 2024 11:19:15 GMT
Another thing that I lament the lost potential of.
We're probably never getting closure on the Architect. The time for that was Here Lies the Abyss but they chose against it.
Unless they decide that he survives no matter what, he's just another shafted plot line.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 24, 2024 11:24:26 GMT
Another thing that I lament the lost potential of. We're probably never getting closure on the Architect. The time for that was Here Lies the Abyss but they chose against it. Unless they decide that he survives no matter what, he's just another shafted plot line. Not really and that is kind of the thing that BioWare is doing with Dragon Age because when you are dealing with fiction at this level of interconnected plotlines...but also constraints of budget, time, resources, technical limitations, and even if you can solve all of that availability of actors and what not, in industry fiction things happen. Its a sad fact of reality but even long term storylines like Marvel, Star Wars, and Babylon 5 have had to deal with these kinds of issues...but the goal is to be flexible enough to continue on these stories in ways that may not involve the participation of the original characters or organizations or what not. Hence the Architect story really is not that important in the grand scheme of things. His story was always about developping and advancing the Darkspawn. Him being likely one of the 7 his plotline was also continued with Corypheus who basically served largely the same purpose as him in Inquisition and Legacy. Kate Mulgrew got 'too expensive' to keep so they had to not hire her again and thus probably have transferred most of her plot to Morrigan. The list goes on.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 24, 2024 11:57:19 GMT
And the new protagonist, Rook in this case, doesn't know my previous "incarnation" anyway - I can't imagine, for example, my Rook caring about who the Inquisitor is/was romantically involved with, which seems to be one of the few things you can pick. There's darkspawn out there eating people, I don't have time for gossip. The romance choice is just there because the Inquisitor might have romanced Solas and whatever presence the Inquisitor has in-game will involve Solas. Might also impact Dorian if he is in and they get to interact with the Inqy in a scene.
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Post by lk13 on Sept 24, 2024 12:56:09 GMT
The 'Architect & sentient-friendly Darkspawn' plot point is a can of worms that shouldn't have been opened in the first place IMHO. Or that it should've been opened and closed in Awakening. Or, as a very last resort, in Inquisition - even if it took a War Table mission or something like that. It's something that fundamentally alters one aspect of the world of Thedas that is true anywhere, which is that Darkspawn are inherently evil and impossible to coexist with (the whole discourse\controversy about 'evil-by-nature races' in fantasy is another issue I don't want to dip my toes in, it gets people heated ). So I don't blame writers from not pursuing it afterwards when they wanted to move the spotlight away from the Darkspawn once the 5th Blight was over to focus on other aspects of the world of Thedas (though the Blight and its manifestation have always been relevant in some form of course) But by Veilguard, without spoiling too much, we're dealing with threats that are by themselves even worse\more dangerous than the Blight. A sentient Darkspawn and his small band of Disciples by now are not really high on the list of priorities when you have to face quasi-divine beings that have a much closer relation to the Blight than even the Architect\Corypheus themselves have.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Sept 24, 2024 13:00:43 GMT
What's really important to the world state? Who the Inquisitor is banging, ugh. Guys, I saw one of the codices and it doesn't look David Mamet-penned, the new Manic Plucky Bioware Companion™ is too manic and plucky (I actually mean it this time!), the art style is degenerate and objectively wrong compared to old statue drawing, and the moderns replaced all the Uber-Femme shapes with WOKE scars. I haven't played the game yet? Of course not, I'm a gamer. QED
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 24, 2024 13:04:58 GMT
And the new protagonist, Rook in this case, doesn't know my previous "incarnation" anyway - I can't imagine, for example, my Rook caring about who the Inquisitor is/was romantically involved with, which seems to be one of the few things you can pick. There's darkspawn out there eating people, I don't have time for gossip. The romance choice is just there because the Inquisitor might have romanced Solas and whatever presence the Inquisitor has in-game will involve Solas. Might also impact Dorian if he is in and they get to interact with the Inqy in a scene. Ah, thank you, I actually completely forgot about that.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 24, 2024 13:13:12 GMT
What people want out of the game is their own business most of the time. It clearly isn't always the case. In what way? It's not about whether or not it was popular, it's about you always having to choose between Alistair and Loghain. You must always have a second Grey Warden to potentially do either the Dark Ritual or sacrifice themself in your stead. Compare this with, say, choosing to have a rivalry with Varric. This is completely optional, chosen by few people, and thus entirely ignored by BioWare. Hawke and Varric are always best friends. That's the difference between a critical path and non-critical path choice.
That's really only true for Alistair though. The only other character that comes close to that level of reactivity is Morrigan. We may or may not get a similar level of reactivity between Solas and the Inquisitor. We just don't know enough to say one way or another. Hmmm... this is moving goalposts... but fine, I'll bite. Yes, it's true that hard work does not equal quality work. Brandon Sanderson and Marlon James both work hard, but there's an obvious gap in talent when it comes to their artistic endeavors. If you want to be generous and describe Sanderson's writing as artistic, even. That said, branching paths doesn't guarantee high quality writing either. In fact, it's likely to create more variance. In Hushed Whispers is a good quest, but completing it with Alistair is much stronger dramatically compared to completing it with Stroud. When you choose to make a deal to sacrifice Connor down the line to the demon, you don't get a different scene where you talk with said demon in Inquisition, you just get nothing. If the goal is the highest quality writing possible, game design principle and basic guidelines of dramaturgy are more often than not at odds. Why? I don't understand how what we've seen so far is in any way reminiscent of Sera. Setting aside that quirky is nebulous term, it's also descriptive rather than prescriptive. It'd be like saying Sten, Cullen and Solas are all cliche archetypes because they're all varying degrees of stoic--which would be ridiculous. A character is more than a personality trait. Their background, upbringing, motivations, all factors that define them. And I mean, we've seen both introductions. Let's compare them: Sera takes initiative and leads you around on a treasure hunt, before guiding you to a noble plotting against you. She appears out of nowhere and shoots the noble, explaining the situation in the least helpful way imaginable. (She also hits you with an S-tier pun in breeches/Breaches, but that's less important.) Bellara, meanwhile, has to be sought out, and is involved in ancient ruins. So deeply involved in ruins that she doesn't leave them even when the current events cause a stir in Arlathan. This alone makes her extremely different from Sera, because Sera is a both keenly observant of what's going on in the world and an anti-intellectual; she's intended to be a parallel and foil to Vivienne, a representation of populism and a deconstruction of the Robin Hood mythos. (As well as the idea of the noble poor.) None of this describes what we know so far about Bellara. Bellara in her introduction is immediately helpful, speaks clearly and to the point--even with slang incorporated into the dialogue--listens without interruption, and doesn't run screaming in the opposite direction at the mention of anything elven. The opposite, in fact, in that she seeks such history out. Not only that, but Sera has severe issues of self-hatred and internalized racism, and we've seen nothing to indicate any of that from Bellara. They don't even share the same speech patterns: Sera's accent is incredibly specific! The only similarities I can see is that they're both elves, they both use bows, they both are introduced shooting an enemy, and MAYBE they're both going through some form of a crisis of faith. And, I guess, that people find them annoying. But like... even then, Sera was annoying in an abrasive way, while if you argue for annoying from Bellara, it's likely more sycophantic.
Look, I can't say whether or not someone will like Bellara; what I can say is that comparing her to Sera is reductive bullshit. Much more clear, yes.
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Post by fairdragon on Sept 24, 2024 14:45:58 GMT
But i don't think that is likely and their are more importent choices i want to show up. Those aren´t important choices like most ones to be fair but it makes your world state different than mine or compared to someone else. And some dwarf (maybe in Kal-Sharok?) could mentioned it like in DAI at the Winter palace. This choice is important enough that people could talk about in a complete different part of Thedas. Ok we do know what the Inquisition choices are so what could possible be the ones from DAO and DA2? If DAO and DA2 has also just 4 well i could imagine that Page 1 is about the Warden / Hawke minus the option to costumize them in the character editor, Page 2 is who was their romance and 3 & 4 now its getting interessting.
For DAO i would guess Page 3 fate of Zevran and Page 4 does Kieran exist? DA 2 Page 3 Fate of Fenris and Page 4 fate of Anders (or Merrill but i would retcon her death)
Personal i would also have a option if Varric is friends or not with Hawke same as for Inquisitor but this won´t happen. Edit: Bartrand fate could be interesting for a Varric conversation but i guess he could have died between DAI and Veilguard.
DAO As the warden is not in the game we will have one page more. (no need to know the race or class)
1. the warden dead or searching for the cure.
2. Romance of the warden.
3. Kieran
4. Zevran
DA2 This will be hard to fill. Their wasn't many choices in the game. 1. Class of Hawke (Bethany/Carver) This would be much work, but it would be cool.
2. Romance of Hawke
3. Fenris
4. Isabela
The only think i would miss will be the well quest. I am quite sad about it.
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Post by q5tyhj on Sept 24, 2024 15:05:08 GMT
Another thing that I lament the lost potential of. We're probably never getting closure on the Architect. The time for that was Here Lies the Abyss but they chose against it. Unless they decide that he survives no matter what, he's just another shafted plot line. And such a good plotline. What a wasted opportunity. But yeah I think that ship has probably sailed.
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Post by fairdragon on Sept 24, 2024 15:12:00 GMT
What's really important to the world state? Who the Inquisitor is banging, ugh. No. What really matter is if Solas is the romance option or not. Maybe Dorian if he is in the game.
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Post by fairdragon on Sept 24, 2024 15:18:32 GMT
Ten years later I barely remember my Inquisitor's first name. I'd be quite content if any references to previous games would be kept short and small in number. Just like Hawke in DAI I will consider the Inquisitor as a BioWare NPC vaguely inspired by a character I played quite a while ago. There is a big subset of fans that still feels attached to all of these characters. Most of Bioware's reputation was how great they handled characters and made players care about them. They are throwing all of that out the window to please some modern audience. That is some way to treat your loyal fans that kept going for ten years while you couldn't get your shit together. Don't you think you're exaggerating?
We get Morrigan, Solas, Varric and Harding at least. They don't throwing out, they only try to find a mittle ground. The only choice i really miss if we only get the 4 is the well choice.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 24, 2024 15:23:08 GMT
Would the people or the events of the Imperium really care about said choices?
Gamers care, that should be the entire point.
Which gamers? Because there are many types of gamers who like different aspects of a said game.
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cuthbertbeckett
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Sept 24, 2024 16:09:00 GMT
That's actually the type of cameos I find totally pointless and a waste of time for me the player. I thought that just a few days ago when I meet Connor in my current DAI PT world state, I put him in because it had been a while that I haven't done that, then after meeting him I remembered why. I don't need a NPC who's only purpose is to tell me why he's there or expose about the previous game they were in I put them in my world state, I know why they are there and what happened...and then he does nothing (outside die off-screen in a non-existing future). He's just a "wink" at the player for putting a check in a checkbox somewhere. The "Sacred Ashes" in DA2 is a good cameo. The King of Orzammar stuff in DA2 is a good cameo. Gianna Parasini in ME2 is a good cameo. The King/Queen of Ferelden showing up in DAI is a good cameo. Drunk Alistair in DA2 is a good cameo (actually average). King Alistair in DA2 is a bad cameo. Leliana in DA2 is a bad cameo. Connor in DAI is a bad cameo. I liked the Connor DAI cameo could it be better? Yeah but without DAI Redcliffe as a returning location would even be blander. Also i don´t get your point you seem to enjoy those in general. By the way i never heard from someone who prefer the Alstair DAI king scene over DA 2.
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