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Post by Cyberzombie on Nov 26, 2016 17:59:13 GMT
edit: I'm thinking about drafting up some kind of list of how the system adversely effected DAIMP, but I don't have enough first-hand experience with the game to be as comprehensive as I would like to be.
I'm sure someone else can articulate this better that I can, but there are basically two main issues that spring to mind.
One is game balance. This is pretty obvious. In DAMP, they started with 3 difficulties. Once you promoted enough times, you became immortal on the hardest difficulty. Then they introduced another difficulty. Once you promoted enough times, you became immortal on that difficulty. Then they introduced another difficulty...and so on and so forth. It's just a bad idea. You need to balance the game. Like when they did balance changes to ME3MP. You just can't balance the game when you have players continuously increasing their power.
The other is the divide between veteran players and new players. As you progressed in DAMP, you started progressing quicker, because you were playing harder difficulties and earning more xp faster. So new players could NEVER catch up, because they were stuck earning low xp whilst the vets were earning high xp. So they would have to be carried to the point where they could eventually contribute. Pretty boring since the entire match would be spent dead.
These are the two major fundamental flaws with the Prestige system.
Also I just want to re-iterate a point I made in another thread, in that you don't need the Prestige system to motivate people to play. You just need a bug free game that doesn't crash, a top notch netcode that allows people from around the world to play with each other without connection or terrible lag issues, and fun balanced gameplay. How easy it that?
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Post by ALTBOULI on Nov 26, 2016 18:48:43 GMT
I still lol @ some of those DAIMP players who used to brag about their "skill". What a joke. just a wild guess: Drasca?! and: sorry, couldn't resist I still remember when he said DAIMP took more skill than ME3MP. Then we found he was a cheater at ME3MP with 66666 build for all his characters...LOL |
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Post by anzer on Nov 26, 2016 19:27:22 GMT
just a wild guess: Drasca?! and: sorry, couldn't resist I still remember when he said DAIMP took more skill than ME3MP. Then we found he was a cheater at ME3MP with 66666 build for all his characters...LOL Maybe it took more skill to select which 4 abilities to have in combat, lol? But yeah, no. DAIMP had the potential to be very strategic and teamwork oriented (and it was often in the very beginning), but they flushed that down the drain with limitless stat gains. - I'm not sure how the promotion system will work in MEAMP, but if it didn't provide flat stat bonuses across all characters, that would be a good start. I could consider something like "for each promotion of a character, you gain 1 additional skill point to improve their ability loadout." Assuming there is a cap on how may points you can put into a skill (ie: 21, ala ME3MP) and how many abilities a character has, you would still get a benefit from promoting, it just wouldn't be totally game breaking like DAIMP. |
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Post by Kenny Bania on Nov 26, 2016 19:29:56 GMT
just a wild guess: Drasca?! and: sorry, couldn't resist I still remember when he said DAIMP took more skill than ME3MP. Then we found he was a cheater at ME3MP with 66666 build for all his characters...LOL Forgot about that completely. Those were fun times. |
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Post by Filippopotame on Nov 26, 2016 20:32:11 GMT
edit: I'm thinking about drafting up some kind of list of how the system adversely effected DAIMP, but I don't have enough first-hand experience with the game to be as comprehensive as I would like to be.
I'm sure someone else can articulate this better that I can, but there are basically two main issues that spring to mind.
One is game balance. This is pretty obvious. In DAMP, they started with 3 difficulties. Once you promoted enough times, you became immortal on the hardest difficulty. Then they introduced another difficulty. Once you promoted enough times, you became immortal on that difficulty. Then they introduced another difficulty...and so on and so forth. It's just a bad idea. You need to balance the game. Like when they did balance changes to ME3MP. You just can't balance the game when you have players continuously increasing their power.
The other is the divide between veteran players and new players. As you progressed in DAMP, you started progressing quicker, because you were playing harder difficulties and earning more xp faster. So new players could NEVER catch up, because they were stuck earning low xp whilst the vets were earning high xp. So they would have to be carried to the point where they could eventually contribute. Pretty boring since the entire match would be spent dead.
These are the two major fundamental flaws with the Prestige system.
Also I just want to re-iterate a point I made in another thread, in that you don't need the Prestige system to motivate people to play. You just need a bug free game that doesn't crash, a top notch netcode that allows people from around the world to play with each other without connection or terrible lag issues, and fun balanced gameplay. How easy it that?
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Post by Pearl on Nov 26, 2016 20:46:49 GMT
edit: I'm thinking about drafting up some kind of list of how the system adversely effected DAIMP, but I don't have enough first-hand experience with the game to be as comprehensive as I would like to be.
I'm sure someone else can articulate this better that I can, but there are basically two main issues that spring to mind.
One is game balance. This is pretty obvious. In DAMP, they started with 3 difficulties. Once you promoted enough times, you became immortal on the hardest difficulty. Then they introduced another difficulty. Once you promoted enough times, you became immortal on that difficulty. Then they introduced another difficulty...and so on and so forth. It's just a bad idea. You need to balance the game. Like when they did balance changes to ME3MP. You just can't balance the game when you have players continuously increasing their power.
The other is the divide between veteran players and new players. As you progressed in DAMP, you started progressing quicker, because you were playing harder difficulties and earning more xp faster. So new players could NEVER catch up, because they were stuck earning low xp whilst the vets were earning high xp. So they would have to be carried to the point where they could eventually contribute. Pretty boring since the entire match would be spent dead.
These are the two major fundamental flaws with the Prestige system.
Also I just want to re-iterate a point I made in another thread, in that you don't need the Prestige system to motivate people to play. You just need a bug free game that doesn't crash, a top notch netcode that allows people from around the world to play with each other without connection or terrible lag issues, and fun balanced gameplay. How easy it that? Good starting point, will comb through this thread and look for other sentiments. Anyone who wants to add their two cents is welcome to, either here or in PM. I may not have time to respond to everything, but I'll be reading it all. I'm not quite sure what I want to do with this list once it's complete, maybe hang on to it until we know more about how it will work in Andromeda and then decide, but I'd rather do this now and not need it than have to throw something together in response to our worst fears coming true. |
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Post by SalMasRac on Nov 26, 2016 22:47:07 GMT
We are DOOMED"5. Prestige One of the biggest challenges for any multiplayer mode is hanging onto players over time. Long-term rewards help to keep them invested beyond the simple enjoyment of playing a fun game. Mass Effect 3 saw continued support for a year after release, but even so, the progression plateaued. “If you really got into the ME 3 multiplayer, you could always collect more cards and get more items, but at a certain point, you’re playing because you like to play,” Frazier says. “There was no systemic benefit at a certain point.” Andromeda addresses that with the concept of prestige XP. As you play, you accrue prestige XP alongside standard XP. Instead of being used to advance a single character, prestige XP accumulates across a particular character styles. For instance, characters that occupy a tank role in combat share prestige progress, so any time you play one of those kits, you earn XP building toward their next prestige level. When you hit that threshold, you earn a bonus – like a health boost – across all characters (not just the tanks). The more you play, and the more you vary your playstyle, the more of these prestige bonuses you will earn. This is a slower burn than standard progression; we didn't get enough hands-on time at BioWare Montreal to see the prestige mechanics in action, but the idea has us excited to sink time into Andromeda's multiplayer." Source www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2016/11/25/five-major-changes-to-mass-effects-multiplayer-and-one-big-question.aspxSo guys, what de we do ? Cancel pre-order ? A petition ? Get drunk and high with Nightman ? Cry on QMR's pillow ? All of the above? “If you really got into the ME 3 multiplayer, you could always collect more cards and get more items, but at a certain point, you’re playing because you like to play,” Frazier says. “There was no systemic benefit at a certain point.” So we shouldn't be playing because we like the game, we should be playing because we are chasing a carrot, and whether or not we like the game is inconsequential. |
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Post by SalMasRac on Nov 26, 2016 22:51:17 GMT
Still don't care. Buying it, playing it enough to get my monies worth. I expect I'll see most of y'all doing the same. I've had enough of your chronic optimism. |
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Post by Ernie on Nov 26, 2016 23:24:05 GMT
Maybe we should share this on Reddit as well? It seems like they are willing to give some answers. I know I am not only one around here with a Reddit account, but I have been somewhat active on /r/mecoop in the past, so if you want me to I will share with others. Just so we can push to get as many answers as possible before it is too late.
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Post by Cirvante on Nov 27, 2016 0:56:02 GMT
All of the above? “If you really got into the ME 3 multiplayer, you could always collect more cards and get more items, but at a certain point, you’re playing because you like to play,” Frazier says. “There was no systemic benefit at a certain point.” So we shouldn't be playing because we like the game, we should be playing because we are chasing a carrot, and whether or not we like the game is inconsequential. What? The players are playing our game for fun and not to make virtual numbers bigger? Quick, let's turn it into a skinner box. What really pisses me off is that the prestige rewards apply to all characters and that apparently you can't avoid them. In DAMP you could just not promote and never get stat gains, but this sounds like you'll earn that exp just by playing certain chars. And if it's a measure to keep people playing for longer, then it won't just cap at +10% health for example. Veteran players will have bonus stats forced on them just for playing a lot, making the game piss-easy as a result.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 1:02:19 GMT
This isn't directed anywhere specific and I'm glancing at stuff (at work and don't have much time these days.) FYI the only reason I continued to play ME3MP as long as I did is the exact opposite of this statement. "Long-term rewards help to keep them invested beyond the simple enjoyment of playing a fun game." Nope. I played it because the actual gameplay was enjoyable. The reward mechanism was a broke ass piece of shit that I hate to this day and resulted in the loss of players who may still be playing it. It's like they forgot to ask everyone who maxed their manifest what the game should be like. When maxing it should've been an immediate "in" for at the least a questionnaire or feedback of some-sort. On the plus side this thread is interesting reading. I haven't had the itch to play ME3MP for a while now, I think I'm actually kinda done with it. Looking at MEAMP but, well... I dunno. My avatar's apathy only goes so far. Also, I should go. |
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Post by Crim on Nov 29, 2016 15:59:40 GMT
Taking DAIMP prestige notes into ME MP eh, totally fuckin' lame news. Yeeesh, my interest is already minimal about this game, hope this isn't implemented. Also, the earlier lols about DAIMP skillz posters makes me miss the fact that we can't just look up those old posts anymore. Boooooooo.  Remember those days, funny, not as funny as the Me3MP board in it's prime but still, had the odd chuckle here and there. |
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 29, 2016 16:40:40 GMT
 Wasn't actually expecting to get a response. I ran this through the Bullshit Translator, and this is what it returned: "It will be pretty much the same, so we're not going to talk about it until we get more preorders." It was kinda similar with DAIMP. They talked about prestiging and dodged any question whether there would be a cap to that. It's not like you have to play it first to realise uncapped power creep might have some negative impact on the experience. |
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 7, 2016 14:27:49 GMT
Good points made all around. I too am dreading the fact that we might be seeing a promotion/prestige grind in MEAMP that will ultimately suck the fun out of multiplayer all together.
The only thing a prestige system will do is divide the player base into "time played" groups rather than "skill groups" and once the players with far more free time on their hands start to push their prestige bonuses to the point of becoming immortal BioWare will implement an exponentially harder difficulty that will further drive a wedge between newer and veteran players. And I am not someone to sit and grind for hours on end just so I can meet some arbitrary prerequisite to play the harder difficulties.
I can remember back in MEMP when me and a buddy jumped into a random platinum match for a laugh and my friend; running a Drell Vanguard with only three promotions to his name armed with a Saber II and a Phalanx VI; was able to solo two waves after the rest of the team died because of his skill with the class. You couldn't do anything like that in DAMP, not only because of the promotion grind required, but also the fact that ability power was tied to weapon damage, and if MEAMP is taking notes from Dragon Age's failed attempt I worry that such moments won't be happing in Andromeda either.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 7, 2016 17:50:10 GMT
The 'invincibility from promoting angle of DAIMP vs ME3MP is way, way, way over stated. Other than a very select few, even with tons of promotions you are far from auto winning at all levels. Sure some classes with high promotions are over powered, just like ME3mp some classes are over powered, but opponent and level of difficulty is still there and you are far from unkillable for many classes and even some that are you will take a long long time to finish a match.
There are a few things to worry about re the new MP for sure but this one is not that big of an issue if you ask me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 18:12:22 GMT
The 'invincibility from promoting angle of DAIMP vs ME3MP is way, way, way over stated. Other than a very select few, even with tons of promotions you are far from auto winning at all levels. Sure some classes with high promotions are over powered, just like ME3mp some classes are over powered, but opponent and level of difficulty is still there and you are far from unkillable for many classes and even some that are you will take a long long time to finish a match. There are a few things to worry about re the new MP for sure but this one is not that big of an issue if you ask me. That's nice to hear as well. Basically, since promoting the first time, in the existing version of the MP, I considered the Promotion to actually be a Demotion. For me it meant that I did not like the character build, and want to start from scratch. The N7 rank does not really impact anything. A meaningful progression is actually a nice concept. Let's hope it will not be a hindrance to the enjoyment and is accompanied by the mechanisms to attract the new players and not punish those of us who are just having fun. |
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Heroicmass
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Post by Heroicmass on Dec 7, 2016 19:21:00 GMT
my only worry is that we won't be able to have legit thunderdome challenges
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 8, 2016 13:34:13 GMT
The 'invincibility from promoting angle of DAIMP vs ME3MP is way, way, way over stated. Other than a very select few, even with tons of promotions you are far from auto winning at all levels. Sure some classes with high promotions are over powered, just like ME3mp some classes are over powered, but opponent and level of difficulty is still there and you are far from unkillable for many classes and even some that are you will take a long long time to finish a match. There are a few things to worry about re the new MP for sure but this one is not that big of an issue if you ask me. DAMP's difficulties are exponentially harder than MEMP's, artificially so, in order to force a promotion and store grind out of the players. Promotions might not grant you god-mode status but the whole system was designed around locking newer players out of higher level play until they had dumped X amount of hours into the grind. In MEMP, I can jump into a Platinum match with a level 20 version of the vanilla Turian Sentinel equipped with nothing but the Avenger and still do reasonably well for myself. I will most likely not beat the match without a coordinated team but I can at least hold my own and take out several enemies by myself by playing it smart, taking cover and the like. In DAMP, if I try and jump into a perilous or heartbreaker match as a level 20 dwarf warrior with no promotions equipped with nothing but the basic weapons it won't matter how good I play or how effectively I use cover, I will literally be dealing no damage to even the lowest tier enemies and I will be one hit killed by everything. It's troubling that BioWare is looking at the system enacted by DAMP for their next iteration of multiplayer rather than sticking with what worked in MEMP. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 13:39:41 GMT
Well, is not it logical that you play on the lower difficulty till your character is powerful enough to advance to the higher difficulty? Maybe it's not such a bad thing? I know the rewards are higher in the higher difficulty matches, but as long as the content on each tear is appropriate to your character's power level, why is it bad that you advance through the multiple tiers, rather than just playing one, highest, tier? Obviously, if playing in the lower tiers gives you absolutely nothing, sure, but if it is like in ME3MP, when you are basically pushed to try the next tier because you can no longer unlock more stuff with the credits you are earning, it is not that different, save for it is cumulative of the unlocks and the promotions. And, it makes promotions worth something.
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 8, 2016 14:04:40 GMT
Well, is not it logical that you play on the lower difficulty till your character is powerful enough to advance to the higher difficulty? Maybe it's not such a bad thing? I know the rewards are higher in the higher difficulty matches, but as long as the content on each tear is appropriate to your character's power level, why is it bad that you advance through the multiple tiers, rather than just playing one, highest, tier? Obviously, if playing in the lower tiers gives you absolutely nothing, sure, but if it is like in ME3MP, when you are basically pushed to try the next tier because you can no longer unlock more stuff with the credits you are earning, it is not that different, save for it is cumulative of the unlocks and the promotions. And, it makes promotions worth something. Yes, there is a progression involved wherein you improve in skill and familiarity with the game and unlock some new characters and equipment along the way. My problem is the "requirement" placed on the grind under the DAMP system. You can't advance on to this difficulty stage until you have promoted your warriors x amount of times, and not until RNGebus has graced you with the appropriate gear to meet this prerequisite. It's a system where grind trumps skilled play. You can be a below average player but sink enough time into the mindless grind and you will automatically be better than that highly skilled new player over there because of all the inflated stats and buffs you get. It's the same reason I hated the special events and weekend challenges, not all of us have mountains of extra time to devote to multiplayer, and because of that we are effectively punished by being denied certain gear pieces. |
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Post by Lvca on Dec 8, 2016 14:13:06 GMT
Well, is not it logical that you play on the lower difficulty till your character is powerful enough to advance to the higher difficulty? Maybe it's not such a bad thing? I know the rewards are higher in the higher difficulty matches, but as long as the content on each tear is appropriate to your character's power level, why is it bad that you advance through the multiple tiers, rather than just playing one, highest, tier? Obviously, if playing in the lower tiers gives you absolutely nothing, sure, but if it is like in ME3MP, when you are basically pushed to try the next tier because you can no longer unlock more stuff with the credits you are earning, it is not that different, save for it is cumulative of the unlocks and the promotions. And, it makes promotions worth something. Because it shouldn't be about your character, it should be about yourself. Play whichever difficulty you're more comfortable playing, knowing that the most important thing keeping you from playing the higher difficulties is your own understanding of the game. Not time spent grinding promotions (which i also think is an incredibly boring mechanic). Promoting should not be a requisite nor a help to play in the higher difficulties imo.
Right now you grind loots, which you don't really "need" as the vanilla kits are really good and the guns, while not very good on average, are not a must if you know how to get the most out of them (play combo classes, use them as ammo appliers, etc). Don't add promotions to the mix.
Also, in the current system, an experienced player can take a new player to a higher difficulty and the new player can still contribute, and even perform really well. Not so sure about that if the damage done and/or received is heavily affected by the number of promotions.
And there are more things I can think of, but I'm needed elsewhere. Maybe I'll add them up later. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 14:15:34 GMT
I guess, because I just have never had skill that was so amazing that it allowed me to shine without levelling the character and carefully gearing him up, that I believe it is very logical to well, continue to do so. I am sorry if it will limit some folks' options.
I do enjoy a moderate amount of levelling and gearing up, because, well, acquisition is fun. In a way, I feel that promotions are not really level 1 to 20, but every time you promote, I guess it's more like level 21 to 41 now, etc, and it will be cool to give a bit of a sense of achievement for playing if you are not talented enough to jump the Tiers.
RNG is a part of the current system as well, and, well, it does have impact on accumulating the gear, particularly when you are ready to switch the tier, and try to save up for the next step (for example, trying to unlock Silver weapons/mods with Bronze earnings, before joining a Silver game).
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 8, 2016 14:53:14 GMT
The 'invincibility from promoting angle of DAIMP vs ME3MP is way, way, way over stated. Other than a very select few, even with tons of promotions you are far from auto winning at all levels. Sure some classes with high promotions are over powered, just like ME3mp some classes are over powered, but opponent and level of difficulty is still there and you are far from unkillable for many classes and even some that are you will take a long long time to finish a match. There are a few things to worry about re the new MP for sure but this one is not that big of an issue if you ask me. DAMP's difficulties are exponentially harder than MEMP's, artificially so, in order to force a promotion and store grind out of the players. Promotions might not grant you god-mode status but the whole system was designed around locking newer players out of higher level play until they had dumped X amount of hours into the grind. In MEMP, I can jump into a Platinum match with a level 20 version of the vanilla Turian Sentinel equipped with nothing but the Avenger and still do reasonably well for myself. I will most likely not beat the match without a coordinated team but I can at least hold my own and take out several enemies by myself by playing it smart, taking cover and the like. In DAMP, if I try and jump into a perilous or heartbreaker match as a level 20 dwarf warrior with no promotions equipped with nothing but the basic weapons it won't matter how good I play or how effectively I use cover, I will literally be dealing no damage to even the lowest tier enemies and I will be one hit killed by everything. It's troubling that BioWare is looking at the system enacted by DAMP for their next iteration of multiplayer rather than sticking with what worked in MEMP. Only because you have played the game a ton, know the choke points, know the places to get out of trouble and are very experienced and a good player, as in have played alot. Either way you have to play alot. Stick a new person with the load out you talk about in plat and they;d be dead in 3 seconds. |
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 8, 2016 15:01:55 GMT
DAMP's difficulties are exponentially harder than MEMP's, artificially so, in order to force a promotion and store grind out of the players. Promotions might not grant you god-mode status but the whole system was designed around locking newer players out of higher level play until they had dumped X amount of hours into the grind. In MEMP, I can jump into a Platinum match with a level 20 version of the vanilla Turian Sentinel equipped with nothing but the Avenger and still do reasonably well for myself. I will most likely not beat the match without a coordinated team but I can at least hold my own and take out several enemies by myself by playing it smart, taking cover and the like. In DAMP, if I try and jump into a perilous or heartbreaker match as a level 20 dwarf warrior with no promotions equipped with nothing but the basic weapons it won't matter how good I play or how effectively I use cover, I will literally be dealing no damage to even the lowest tier enemies and I will be one hit killed by everything. It's troubling that BioWare is looking at the system enacted by DAMP for their next iteration of multiplayer rather than sticking with what worked in MEMP. Only because you have played the game a ton, know the choke points, know the places to get out of trouble and are very experienced and a good player, as in have played alot. Either way you have to play alot. Stick a new person with the load out you talk about in plat and they;d be dead in 3 seconds. There is a difference between knowing the finer points of the game mechanics and how to effectively play than being placed in a situation that is literally impossible for you to even do marginally well because of inflated health and attack stats though. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 15:27:55 GMT
But what is so inherently wrong about starting out at the lower tiers if they are challenging for that character? I mean, I see the reverse all the time, people in bronze with Harriers by reasons that escape my understanding... but if the challenge and fun are there, why is it bad to play lowbies with a lowbie character?
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