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Post by cloud9 on Sept 28, 2016 10:25:08 GMT
Why are you putting words into my mouth of something that I never said? I never said that I don't like her because of her looks, I said she's a stereotype. Work on your comprehension skills and use your brain for once. Sheesh! This isn't you then? You can look back on the very first page of the thread to verify it, in fact. BioWare obviously create Isabella as a typical African American Jezebel stereotype; a black woman who sleeps with everyone and getting STDs.Emphasis mine, obviously. The only reason I didn't carry on with the 'harlot' bit is because you've already been called out on that. Tell you what. I'll practise my comprehension skills when you improve your writing skills and your memory. Now who's, to use your favourite expression, butthurt? You're the one who's getting worked up and I have the right to call out character flaws even it involves with race and sex.
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Post by Beregond5 on Sept 28, 2016 10:49:16 GMT
This isn't you then? You can look back on the very first page of the thread to verify it, in fact. BioWare obviously create Isabella as a typical African American Jezebel stereotype; a black woman who sleeps with everyone and getting STDs.Emphasis mine, obviously. The only reason I didn't carry on with the 'harlot' bit is because you've already been called out on that. Tell you what. I'll practise my comprehension skills when you improve your writing skills and your memory. Now who's, to use your favourite expression, butthurt? You're the one who's getting worked up and I have the right to call out character flaws even it involves with race and sex. The only one getting worked up is you, my dear. I, personally, have a lot of fun seeing you jumping from 'I never said I didn't like her because she's a black woman!' to 'I have every right to call out character flaws even if it involves race!'
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 28, 2016 10:58:03 GMT
This trolling run hasn't angered or upset me at all. It has made me a little sad. Because a human being has decided that the best way for him to gain affirmation of his existence is to besmirch fictional characters.
I understand that some feel the need to point and laugh, but it all seems rather wasteful and soul deadening.
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Beregond5
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Post by Beregond5 on Sept 28, 2016 11:01:02 GMT
This trolling run hasn't angered or upset me at all. It has made me a little sad. Because a human being has decided that the best way for him to gain affirmation of his existence is to besmirch fictional characters. I understand that some feel the need to point and laugh, but it all seems rather wasteful and soul deadening. True enough. Stopping as of now. And to return to proper topic, here's some art. Source: link
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Sept 28, 2016 11:58:01 GMT
I really like the art, and every artist is free to have their own interpretation... but to me Isabela here is just way to pale. There are so few POC females in gaming as it is, I would prefer if people stayed true to that part of their character. Not saying this to cause a debate or anything, just my opinion.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Beregond5 on Sept 28, 2016 12:20:57 GMT
I really like the art, and every artist are free to have their own interpretation... but to me Isabela here is just way to pale. There are so few POC females in gaming as it is, I would prefer if people stayed true to that part of their character. Not saying this to cause a debate or anything, just my opinion. No worries, I'll be the first to admit that. I like it for her confident poise.
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 12:33:50 GMT
The block button even hides their posts, but then I'd see people arguing with no one so I didn't turn it on. This person ruined the Who should rule Orlais thread on BSN prime. Going on about how Celene never loved Briala and la la la. And people kept arguing with thisperson instead of ignoring so they'd quote him and that sort of encourages him to come back and defend his stance. Ignore the troll. And kiss a pirate .
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 28, 2016 12:34:48 GMT
I like that she is comfortable in her own skin. She knows who she is. What I really like is that she actually develops as a character in DA2 depending upon your choices. All of the companions do, to a certain extent, but I find Isabela's growth specially satisfying.
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 12:46:29 GMT
I really like the art, and every artist is free to have their own interpretation... but to me Isabela here is just way to pale. There are so few POC females in gaming as it is, I would prefer if people stayed true to that part of their character. Not saying this to cause a debate or anything, just my opinion. One time I read on th forum that no one makes non Caucasian protagonists, even when darker shade is available. So, I started making dusky men and women- in DAI, anyway. The shades of non white in the first two games just look unnatural. Greenish, yellow purple ish palettes. Nothing that looked as good as Isabella, that's for sure. And Isbella always came off as (non thedas) Mediterranean to me, not African American. And I can't think of any sexual stereotypes about that region. The most sex positive Warden I had (wanted to sleep with everyone, think Isabella had higher standards) was white. STDs can be caught by anyone. My sister lost her virginity, and caught like... something treatable, and that was her first time ever. And she's way more monogamous than I am,married to her third lover I believe, whereas I've had 14 ish lovers and never caught anything. STD is not the official stamp of sexual promiscuity that punishes you for bad acts any more than getting lice as a kid is a sign you don't wash properly.
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 12:50:59 GMT
I like that she is comfortable in her own skin. She knows who she is. What I really like is that she actually develops as a character in DA2 depending upon your choices. All of the companions do, to a certain extent, but I find Isabela's growth specially satisfying. Yeah. Friendship path calms Fenris down. And friendship path for Isabella had her sounding quite sentimental too. Although, man, they give her a lot of flirt lines. My last Hawke wasn't interested in her in that fashion, and I remember this one conversation where it was two flirt lines and two non flirt and I struggled between the two non flirts as something my character would actually say. And then the next reply seemed to have the same setup and I'm like...GAME, I AM Red Hawke WITH FENRIS, STOP IT. I patted myself in the back for getting through sounding like myself and NOT flirting.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Sept 28, 2016 12:53:22 GMT
phoray I'm not sure if the part about sexual stereotypes was directed at someone else? I just commented because I prefer Isabela more as she is depicted in the game.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 13:07:08 GMT
I never done the Isabela's romance, and I admit, in my early playthrough I mostly lost her, and I rarely took her with my group, but for a while I found that she really interesting character. Since then, she always bring back the Koslun ... The rivalry worth with her, if I not romance her?
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 13:09:57 GMT
phoray I'm not sure if the part about sexual stereotypes was directed at someone else? I just commented because I prefer Isabela more as she is depicted in the game. Haha it was aimed at the presence of a certain poster who should never be quoted, sorry. And the skin tone thoughts were a response to you.
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 13:15:24 GMT
I never done the Isabela's romance, and I admit, in my early playthrough I mostly lost her, and I rarely took her with my group, but for a while I found that she really interesting character. Since then, she always bring back the Koslun ... The rivalry worth with her, if I not romance her? I've played 3 times, and lost her twice so I was in the same boat. The key to Isabella is you have to use her the first two acts or you will definitely lose her. The first time, I didn't know. The second time, I had been too focused on metegame friendship Carver and rival Anders. She's tricky, because she never gives big piles of points. You have to chip away at her like 5 points at a time, which requires you to ...meta game, IMO. It's easy to rival her if you're a kind hero Hawke. She had a harsh life where back stabbing helped her. If you rival her, you show her that those ways aren't necessary and she kind of becomes a more normal society morality person. Friendship is by confirming her beliefs that bribing and blackmailing are the correct things to doto get by in the world.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 13:27:30 GMT
I never done the Isabela's romance, and I admit, in my early playthrough I mostly lost her, and I rarely took her with my group, but for a while I found that she really interesting character. Since then, she always bring back the Koslun ... The rivalry worth with her, if I not romance her? I've played 3 times, and lost her twice so I was in the same boat. The key to Isabella is you have to use her the first two acts or you will definitely lose her. The first time, I didn't know. The second time, I had been too focused on metegame friendship Carver and rival Anders. She's tricky, because she never gives big piles of points. You have to chip away at her like 5 points at a time, which requires you to ...meta game, IMO. It's easy to rival her if you're a kind hero Hawke. She had a harsh life where back stabbing helped her. If you rival her, you show her that those ways aren't necessary and she kind of becomes a more normal society morality person. Friendship is by confirming her beliefs that bribing and blackmailing are the correct things to doto get by in the world. Oh, as Fenris: if Hawke in friendship with him, he will be calmer, but still blame the magic... Isabela get much friendship points for flirt... and for the humorous answers, and as I see, he dont likes the serious answers. Maybe I need to try a kind, boring Hawke
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 13:38:05 GMT
I've played 3 times, and lost her twice so I was in the same boat. The key to Isabella is you have to use her the first two acts or you will definitely lose her. The first time, I didn't know. The second time, I had been too focused on metegame friendship Carver and rival Anders. She's tricky, because she never gives big piles of points. You have to chip away at her like 5 points at a time, which requires you to ...meta game, IMO. It's easy to rival her if you're a kind hero Hawke. She had a harsh life where back stabbing helped her. If you rival her, you show her that those ways aren't necessary and she kind of becomes a more normal society morality person. Friendship is by confirming her beliefs that bribing and blackmailing are the correct things to doto get by in the world. Oh, as Fenris: if Hawke in friendship with him, he will be calmer, but still blame the magic... Isabela get much friendship points for flirt... and for the humorous answers, and as I see, he dont likes the serious answers. Maybe I need to try a kind, boring Hawke Diplomatic Hawke who would never blackmail or bribe a soul would rival Isabella. Sarcastic Mercenary Hawke who turns down missions that don't pay would be friendship with her. But I accept all missions, so Ive had to leave her behind,go accept a mission, get her again, then go do the.mission at least once. That deep roads mission.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 13:54:12 GMT
Oh, as Fenris: if Hawke in friendship with him, he will be calmer, but still blame the magic... Isabela get much friendship points for flirt... and for the humorous answers, and as I see, he dont likes the serious answers. Maybe I need to try a kind, boring Hawke Diplomatic Hawke who would never blackmail or bribe a soul would rival Isabella. Sarcastic Mercenary Hawke who turns down missions that don't pay would be friendship with her. But I accept all missions, so Ive had to leave her behind,go accept a mission, get her again, then go do the.mission at least once. That deep roads mission. Oh, NOT blackmail and bribe not that hard thing, I dont like to use that tools so much (squeamish thing I know). Maybe that was the reason (and my Hawkes only rarely flirted with her), that she often escaped.
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 14:49:23 GMT
Part 1 Catilina I looked into it more. For a hero type Hawke to rival her: Act 1 Agree to help Fenris without accusing him of trying to trick you.
Once you find out that Marten's cargo is poison, don't tell him it where it is.
Unfortunately, agreeing to help Isabella on her Act 1 quest gets you friendship, unless you complain that you're not a charity (aggressive option) before agreeing. Hero Hawke wouldn't say something like that, so maybe humour options for this quest, which get friendship, but less freindship. I think this is a bit ironic; help anyone else and she thinks badly of you. Treat her the same way she wants you to treat other people, and she thinks badly of you.
Help the man find his wife (that Quentin killed and you only end up with her ring) with "Can I help in any way?" Same with Emeric in the same quest.
Don't kill the apostate Prostitute that tries to mind control you.
Offer the Mine workers a raise.
Be pious with Elthina when discussing the Blight.
And Diplomatic Hawke talks the elves out of killing the Werewolf
This will get 40 Rival Points, with a possible 5-10 freinship points for being nice to her on her own personal quest.
Net: 30-40 Rivalry for Helpful Hawke Act 2 Luckily, if you're already in the direction of rivalry, her Act 2 present of a tiny boat gets you 10 rival points for free.
Tell Orana to come work for you as a paid servant.
Agree to go to the Deep Roads to help the Dwarf find his sons.
Give Aveline a "Friendly Ultimatum" about Donnic and their romance.
Believe Gaspard when he says he's not involved and let him live.
Act 2 Questioning beliefs quest, the Diplomatic Option makes her unahppy. Also tell her it's none of her business or be sarcastic when the tries to talk to you about your love interest.
Demand she give the Relic back to the Qunari.
Optional: If Fenryiel was Sent to the Dalish, BEFORE night Terrors quest, you can travel to Sundermont and side with either Dalish or Templars because Templars are looking for him. Isabella thinks you should stay out of it, so helping either side makes her rival.
Optional: Encourage Isabella to let go of her quest to find the artifact. Diplo response-> Sarc response "Rats" when she doesn't agree to give it up. <- I think it's weird for a helpful Hawke to tell her to give up on it, but maybe Hawke think it's unhealthy for her to be obsessed about it for 4 years.
Optional: Bring Isabella to the Fade, and tell her "don't turn on me." gets 5 points. I think a nice Hawke would say this. and when you come back to confront her about her betrayal, say, "You backstabber." +10 <- I can see Helpful Hawke being mad about this, but maybe some people don't like calling her names and forgive her. so, 5-10 points for this quest.
Optional: Sleep with Isabella and agree it's just a one night stand with the "Maybe you're right."
N et: 70 Rival Points + 30 Optional Rival Points. Leaving 40 points as "Extra" between the two acts. But all of that is just those quests. Maybe you do something she likes during other quests, and so you lose some and the Extra points maybe aren't so extra. She doesn't have to be at max to come back with the Koslun book, but I think it's 80. So, you COULD not use her in Act 1 at all, but Act 2 is very important to do exactly just the above to rival her and her come back with the book. This is why I tell people she is most important to focus on first two acts, otherwise she is a slippery pirate.
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 15:29:49 GMT
Part 2 This is follow up to previous post about trying to Rival Isabella as a Hero/Helpful Hawke. Because sometimes Isabella kinda likes the "moral/good" option, as you will see. Catilina If in the Mercy Quest to help the mages in the cave, you tell the mages that you'll lie to Ser Thrask about killing them so that they can escape, you get 5 friendship points.
If you tell Javaris that you'll help him so you can hunt Outlaws (which makes Kirkwall a safer place) she gives 5 friendship
Agreeing to help Merten find his cargo AT ALL gets you 5 friend points, which cancels out 5 of the rival points out of 10 you get for not telling him where the cargo is later because it's poison.
If you want to be a non religious Hawke, telling Elthina that the Blight wasn't the maker makes Isabella happy. +5 so, depends on your Hawke. I like non religious Hawkes, so I'd not bring Isabella for this discussion. A religious hero hawke should bring her.
Loose ends: the quest where depending on who you worked for earlier that year gives you one more job? Don't do the bad thing, then lie about it to Meeria/Atheneril. She'll like you for lying about your goodness. LOL
When you save Seamus and choose the polite option of staying out of the argument between him and his father, Isabella likes this.
A Hawke that doesn't want Orana the elf to work as a paid servant can give her gold instead and let her find a new life. This is nice, and Isabella will like you for it = not good for rivalry.
When Isabella betrays you in the fade, say "I can't beat that." If you forgive Isabella for betraying you in the fade, your nice Hawke will get paid with 10 friendship points= 15 total friendship points
Telling Aveline to set up a patrol gets +10 friendship.
If you are nice to her on her questioning beliefs quest and let her tease you about your romance options, +15
I can see a nice Hawke thinking that the Qunari are just bad and don't deserve the Koslun book, so if you let her keep it, +15
Defend your morally grey friend to the Arishok, "You can't have her!"
So, even a hero Hawke can friend Isabella depending on how they feel about things. Lying, specifically. The Flavor of Isabella when you rival her is that you feel like you've shown her a kinder way of living. Get involved, help people, not just for money! She grumbles a bit, but a lot of people feels like it makes her "grow." She comes back with the book, because you're making a hero out of her. Friendship path, you're pretty much doing the things that she thinks the world is. People lie to get out of trouble. People only help if they get paid or if it makes their life easier. Honor among theives, everyone else can shove it. And she comes back with the book, because she can't turn her back on a friend (honor among theives) even if it's makes her one of those goodie two shoes. This is all lovely, but makes it supremely hard to rival OR friend her without metagaming. Her character is way more complex than Anders or Fenris.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 16:06:05 GMT
This is why I like Isabela.
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 16:37:21 GMT
This is why I like Isabela. I like her too, but game mechanics require you to metagame her or she leaves with the book. On my first play through, I lost Fenris in the Gallows because he kept swinging back and forth hard core on the bar. Friendship for being anti slavery and helping non mage people, rivalry for every helping mages. he was like 50 points on the rivalry path for my pro freedom mage Hawke. It was really frustrating to have to kill my game companion because I sided with the mages but not enough in his presence to have totally rivaled him. If I had brought Isabella around with me my first game, it would have been the same problem of back and forth and then she leaves with the book. As it was, I lost her twice because I was a rogue my first time and didn't need another rogue, and the second time because I was a squishy mage and wanted more tanks. I had to super metagame my third round to keep her around with my evil Hawke and finally she stays. At least now that I know Anders and Fenris, their likes and dislikes are obvious enough to know when I shouldn't bring them on a mission. But Isabella is okay with you doing good moral things so long as you lie about them later. That is a subtlety that is super not easy to follow. I don't even understand why she doesn't want to help Yevhen. The only other quest she doesn't want you to take is that My Wife is Missing Quest, but that's obviously because of her back story of an unhappy marriage.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 28, 2016 16:55:20 GMT
The best part of Isabela is her and Aveline. I like the dialogue both have.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 17:01:18 GMT
This is why I like Isabela. I like her too, but game mechanics require you to metagame her or she leaves with the book. On my first play through, I lost Fenris in the Gallows because he kept swinging back and forth hard core on the bar. Friendship for being anti slavery and helping non mage people, rivalry for every helping mages. he was like 50 points on the rivalry path for my pro freedom mage Hawke. It was really frustrating to have to kill my game companion because I sided with the mages but not enough in his presence to have totally rivaled him. If I had brought Isabella around with me my first game, it would have been the same problem of back and forth and then she leaves with the book. As it was, I lost her twice because I was a rogue my first time and didn't need another rogue, and the second time because I was a squishy mage and wanted more tanks. I had to super metagame my third round to keep her around with my evil Hawke and finally she stays. At least now that I know Anders and Fenris, their likes and dislikes are obvious enough to know when I shouldn't bring them on a mission. But Isabella is okay with you doing good moral things so long as you lie about them later. That is a subtlety that is super not easy to follow. I don't even understand why she doesn't want to help Yevhen. The only other quest she doesn't want you to take is that My Wife is Missing Quest, but that's obviously because of her back story of an unhappy marriage. I never lost character in DA2 except Isabela, because I don't knew, that she so likes to flirt (+25(!) friendship), and I took Varric everywhere. Maybe it's not worth it to risk our life for some stupid kid? I do not know, to me she's never seemed so practical ...
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Post by phoray on Sept 28, 2016 17:14:12 GMT
I don't even understand why she doesn't want to help Yevhen. The only other quest she doesn't want you to take is that My Wife is Missing Quest, but that's obviously because of her back story of an unhappy marriage. I never lost character in DA2 except Isabela, because I don't knew, that she so likes to flirt (+25(!) friendship), and I took Varric everywhere. Maybe it's not worth it to risk our life for some stupid kid? I do not know, to me she's never seemed so practical ... I don't want to flirt with someone I'm not interested in if I don't want to romance them. Especially Isabella, she just shows up at your mansion and tries to sex you after like ONE flirt. It'd be awkward if I had to be like...uh, I was just mining points? Please leave? My evil Hawke got her max friendship pretty good, no flirting, before even the Koslun book decision.
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Wanted Apostate
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 17:18:53 GMT
I never lost character in DA2 except Isabela, because I don't knew, that she so likes to flirt (+25(!) friendship), and I took Varric everywhere. Maybe it's not worth it to risk our life for some stupid kid? I do not know, to me she's never seemed so practical ... I don't want to flirt with someone I'm not interested in if I don't want to romance them. Especially Isabella, she just shows up at your mansion and tries to sex you after like ONE flirt. It'd be awkward if I had to be like...uh, I was just mining points? Please leave? My evil Hawke got her max friendship pretty good, no flirting, before even the Koslun book decision. Oh, yes, haha, my Hawke just refused her... but was fun. And even someone complains that Anders easily attracted to Hawke... (Anyway: she deserve a little teasing, constantly shamelessly flirting with Fenris...)
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