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Post by themikefest on Nov 25, 2016 15:01:07 GMT
Like that line the stupid asari says on Thessia "the next time we go to war, maybe the Alliance can spring some air support"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 15:33:44 GMT
Again, you're missing the point. It's not that they talk about meaningless things, its that what they talk about contain nothing of value. Hearing your squaddies talk about Cerberus on Mars in ME3 works, having Garrus comment on elevator rides with Tali is also good, that's not my issue here. My issue is when in whatever they talk about they're saying nothing. Like on Earth in ME3 and Anderson goes "how can we stop something so powerful!?" or Shepard saying "I suppose anything is possible" when they speculate Cerberus is "working with Reapers". It's just when the dialogue sucks, that's what I mean. Oh... like your first sentence. One definition of meaningless is "without meaning, significance, purpose, or value; purposeless; insignificant." (per Dictionary.com) Sovereign rambling on in ME1 about how we couldn't understand what Reapers were is exactly the same sort of repetitive "insult to our intelligence" as Liara saying she couldn't describe the Prothean artifacts found in the Mars Archives in a short conversation. In fact, her vagueness is probably somewhat meaningful because they left a possibility open that in future games, something yet undescribed could have been found there that is relevant to that future game. People don't like the idea of more alien tech saving the day, but that sort of premise is really common in the sci-fi genre. It's not only Bioware that has overused it in the past. My point is that there is an amount of dialogue that sucked in ME1 just as there is an amount of dialogue that sucked in ME3. Your title is targeted towards making out that the ME3 dialogue is so much worse than ME1. It's not... both games have plenty of bad moments... and plenty of good ones as well. You also have to consider that several of the lines in ME3 were intentionally poking fun at "stupid stuff" found in the earlier games and in other games and literature as well. Some of that humor did fall flat... just like any stand up comedy routine can be hit or miss.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 25, 2016 20:27:03 GMT
Thanks for looking up the word Meaningless and show I'm not wrong about what it means... I guess Yes, the Reapers are merely boasting, but they get the point well across about what they're supposed to be (in ME1) and what they represent (cycle of life and death on a larger scale). Now imagine if after Sovereign's speech Ashley goes "That ship, what it said... I think it told us something important!" now that would be in line with how I find some of those lines I've put into question in ME3. We KNOW they're significant and arrogant and they're gonna kick our ass, we don't need a redundant line of dialogue to meander that point across. And that's what I feel ME3 does too often. "There'll be blood. Real blood" is a line said by the Primarch... like, what does that even mean? "real blood" as opposed to fake blood? Shepard going "You either understand what you have to do or you don't!" to EDI and I don't get why he says that. He goes "You're either with me or against me, there's nothing grey about that!" to TIM, and that's pointless to say too, it just makes him sound like a fool. TIM talking about how EDI taking control of EVA is the same as him trying to control the Reapers saying it's necessary... so, why is it necessary to control Reapers again? There's just so much dialogue where there's put zero thought into it. Examples of bad dialogue in ME1 would be how Anderson and Shepard both assume too much about Saren and the Reapers. They say "they'll think I'm crazy" but then still go "My vision has shown me the truth! The Reapers are out there, I know it!" and that's bad dialogue and bad logic. I fail to remember any point with pointless dialogue though, aside from singular comments by squadmates that never fit the context anyway. There are bad lines that fail to reflect what happens logiclaly in the plot, like a few details of Vigil's conversation, some of the logic of Saren using the Conduit to get to the Citadel when he's already answering to the council, but there's none of that "we fight or we die!" or "I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain" kind of dialogue. Last example for this post:"We have to stand together -- this isn't about strategy or tactics, this is about survival! We fight or we die!". How is that line as good as Sovereign's speech for example, now that you claim ME3 is on the same overall level as ME1? I would argue Sovereign's speech at least has coherence. It's not meandering becuase it's the first bit of direct representation for the Reapers we experience and serves the purpose of characterizing one of them. It's not faulty logic, it's just boastful ominous sounding platitudes, but at least it's not dialogue that's in service of nothing.
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Post by hammerstorm on Nov 25, 2016 22:29:54 GMT
My only problem with ME3 dialogue would be with Shepard. While I can accept that npc or my squad mates say things that I don't care about or is irrelevant for me (because I don't control them), I was annoyed that MY Shepard was forced to care for things. Otherwise, I didn't notice any bigger difference between the 3 games. Maybe I'm just used to this things irl.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 23:12:57 GMT
Thanks for looking up the word Meaningless and show I'm not wrong about what it means... I guess Yes, the Reapers are merely boasting, but they get the point well across about what they're supposed to be (in ME1) and what they represent (cycle of life and death on a larger scale). Now imagine if after Sovereign's speech Ashley goes "That ship, what it said... I think it told us something important!" now that would be in line with how I find some of those lines I've put into question in ME3. We KNOW they're significant and arrogant and they're gonna kick our ass, we don't need a redundant line of dialogue to meander that point across. And that's what I feel ME3 does too often. "There'll be blood. Real blood" is a line said by the Primarch... like, what does that even mean? "real blood" as opposed to fake blood? Shepard going "You either understand what you have to do or you don't!" to EDI and I don't get why he says that. He goes "You're either with me or against me, there's nothing grey about that!" to TIM, and that's pointless to say too, it just makes him sound like a fool. TIM talking about how EDI taking control of EVA is the same as him trying to control the Reapers saying it's necessary... so, why is it necessary to control Reapers again? There's just so much dialogue where there's put zero thought into it. Examples of bad dialogue in ME1 would be how Anderson and Shepard both assume too much about Saren and the Reapers. They say "they'll think I'm crazy" but then still go "My vision has shown me the truth! The Reapers are out there, I know it!" and that's bad dialogue and bad logic. I fail to remember any point with pointless dialogue though, aside from singular comments by squadmates that never fit the context anyway. There are bad lines that fail to reflect what happens logiclaly in the plot, like a few details of Vigil's conversation, some of the logic of Saren using the Conduit to get to the Citadel when he's already answering to the council, but there's none of that "we fight or we die!" or "I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain" kind of dialogue. Last example for this post:"We have to stand together -- this isn't about strategy or tactics, this is about survival! We fight or we die!". How is that line as good as Sovereign's speech for example, now that you claim ME3 is on the same overall level as ME1? I would argue Sovereign's speech at least has coherence. It's not meandering becuase it's the first bit of direct representation for the Reapers we experience and serves the purpose of characterizing one of them. It's not faulty logic, it's just boastful ominous sounding platitudes, but at least it's not dialogue that's in service of nothing. The Primarch's statement is about the "bad blood" meaning "bad feelings" vs. "real blood" meaning the Turians getting decimated on the battlefield without the help of the Krogan. As for "meaningless" - your first sentence in that post was meaningless because on one hand you said you weren't concerned that the dialogue was meaning but you were concerned that it had no value (i.e. did not contain value which is the definition of meaningless). So, on one hand, you're not concerned and on the other hand you are concerned about meaningless dialogue - which is a meaningless statement made by you. That Ashley says "my eyeballs just dried out" and Garrus says to be sure to stay hydrated on a planet that does not have a hazard level for heat indicated is meaningless dialogue. The Anderson tells Shepard re Virmire "You'll just have to go there and check it out for yourself." is meaningless dialogue. Everything about the keepers destroying themselves if approached is meaningless dialogue. That Inamorda will tell you he's drinking human blood with cinnamon is meaningless dialogue. That Kara Stirling comes back with a statement "You know what we do to cop killers on my world?" is meaningless dialogue. That Liara wil cut into the conversation with Lorik Qu'in saying that "Men have an unhealthy obsession with [the Asari] is meaningless dialogue. I could go on... ME1 has a ton of it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 3:03:42 GMT
Not at all.
I think the dialogue improved throughout the three games, with ME3 being the series' highpoint and Mass Effect 1 being it's lowest.
I just played through ME1 again recently and much of the dialogue is awful. Tali and Liara are walking codex entries whose word budget was spent near entirely on info dumps about their species (Tali being the worst offender, she's a snooze fest in ME1), Garrus has almost none of his later personality, and Kaidan varies from whiny to boring. All of the romance arcs feel rushed and don't progress naturally. Characters also stand ramrod still during conversations, making the conversation scenes far less natural or cinematic than they were in the third game.
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Post by Lavochkin on Nov 26, 2016 3:08:50 GMT
Not at all. I think the dialogue improved throughout the three games, with ME3 being the series' highpoint and Mass Effect 1 being it's lowest. I just played through ME1 again recently and much of the dialogue is awful. Tali and Liara are walking codex entries whose word budget was spent near entirely on info dumps about their species (Tali being the worst offender, she's a snooze fest in ME1), Garrus has almost none of his later personality, and Kaidan varies from whiny to boring. All of the romance arcs feel rushed and don't progress naturally. Characters also stand ramrod still during conversations, making the conversation scenes far less natural or cinematic than they were in the third game. The voice direction was also at it's lowest with ME1, the VAs sounded like they were simply reading off the script and didn't have the natural flair as the sequels' voice acting did.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 13:16:30 GMT
Not at all. I think the dialogue improved throughout the three games, with ME3 being the series' highpoint and Mass Effect 1 being it's lowest. I just played through ME1 again recently and much of the dialogue is awful. Tali and Liara are walking codex entries whose word budget was spent near entirely on info dumps about their species (Tali being the worst offender, she's a snooze fest in ME1), Garrus has almost none of his later personality, and Kaidan varies from whiny to boring. All of the romance arcs feel rushed and don't progress naturally. Characters also stand ramrod still during conversations, making the conversation scenes far less natural or cinematic than they were in the third game. The voice direction was also at it's lowest with ME1, the VAs sounded like they were simply reading off the script and didn't have the natural flair as the sequels' voice acting did. There's that, also. I just started playing ME2 again and having played ME1 shortly before, it is really noticeable.
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Post by Darth Dennis on Nov 26, 2016 16:15:12 GMT
I think ME2 had the best dialogue overall, despite a weak main plot. Not really that much to say about it. I even liked the silly one-liners Shepard got given.
ME1 was alright for me, although quite bad sometimes - e.g. a lot of Karpyshyn-written characters didn't have much personality to them and sounded a bit weird to speak to. The Council meetings were also unpleasant to watch after the first playthrough, and Benezia was as wooden as a tree.
I find the dialogue in ME3 was good when talking to old friends and characters from previous installments, but I found most of the other stuff to be really bad. Everytime Kai Leng or TIM spoke, it sounded really bad (Martin Sheen and Troy Baker did his best with the more questionable lines lines he was given). Other characters whose dialogue I didn't like was EDI/Joker in their romance side plot; James, who I didn't particularly think fit the tone of the series. Special shout-out to Allers who was especially awful.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Nov 27, 2016 5:26:03 GMT
"You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!" ME1 Shep auto-dialogue.
See? You can cherrypick vapid lines from all the games.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 28, 2016 1:13:17 GMT
"You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!" ME1 Shep auto-dialogue. See? You can cherrypick vapid lines from all the games. I didn't feel the writer struggling to come up with a line with that one though, and that's in general for even the bad lines of ME1. In ME3 you can feel through the dialogue when the writers wanted to say a certain thing but didn't put in the effort to really go through with it. The ME1 line you point out is just a corny line.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 16:57:54 GMT
I think ME2 had the best dialogue overall, despite a weak main plot. Not really that much to say about it. I even liked the silly one-liners Shepard got given. ME1 was alright for me, although quite bad sometimes - e.g. a lot of Karpyshyn-written characters didn't have much personality to them and sounded a bit weird to speak to. The Council meetings were also unpleasant to watch after the first playthrough, and Benezia was as wooden as a tree. I find the dialogue in ME3 was good when talking to old friends and characters from previous installments, but I found most of the other stuff to be really bad. Everytime Kai Leng or TIM spoke, it sounded really bad (Martin Sheen and Troy Baker did his best with the more questionable lines lines he was given). Other characters whose dialogue I didn't like was EDI/Joker in their romance side plot; James, who I didn't particularly think fit the tone of the series. Special shout-out to Allers who was especially awful. Kai Leng just did not belong in the verse. I would have preferred Kaiden or Ashley in the personal nemesis role, but I guess they were short on LI at this point. Anyways, just a random impulsive statement, nothing to see here.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 28, 2016 18:05:23 GMT
umm, there's just as many equally dumb lines in ME2..
The whole "Alliance are dumb, let's work together with Cerberus" after seeing Freedom's Progress. Joker's "hell yeah, I join Cerberus". The whole altered y-chromosome line in Miranda's. Mordin's comments about hallucinogenic venom, acidic dextro semen and the whole "the girl have a severe immune condition and she'll die if she have sex with you." and then you get "we have feelings for each other, its okay as long as I get laid" and how it didn't matter anyway.
Also choosing between arms-wide "GARRUS!" or a more neutral "Garrus" and he'd pout about why you're not happy seeing him and Shepard reiterate that she's too 'shocked' to see him. *facepalm* Liara's getting mad back at you for "You're the reason why Cerberus had me". Tela Vasir's line about being hypocrite and Shepard's "It didn't matter" for all Ruthless/SS/Blitz background. Oh yes, of course, it matters a lot.
Honestly, anyone can nitpick everything the game.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 28, 2016 20:58:28 GMT
Not at all. I think the dialogue improved throughout the three games, with ME3 being the series' highpoint and Mass Effect 1 being it's lowest. I just played through ME1 again recently and much of the dialogue is awful. Tali and Liara are walking codex entries whose word budget was spent near entirely on info dumps about their species (Tali being the worst offender, she's a snooze fest in ME1), Garrus has almost none of his later personality, and Kaidan varies from whiny to boring. All of the romance arcs feel rushed and don't progress naturally. Characters also stand ramrod still during conversations, making the conversation scenes far less natural or cinematic than they were in the third game. ME3's dialogue was, simply, cr*p. I barely got any options on what to say, and when I did there was typically only two options: sad or p*ssed off. This might make the conversations feel more "natural" (I'm sure the conversations flow much better when there are only red and blue channels to account for) but it certainly doesn't feel much like an RPG. More like a shooter with dialogue options.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 28, 2016 21:11:24 GMT
Not at all. I think the dialogue improved throughout the three games, with ME3 being the series' highpoint and Mass Effect 1 being it's lowest. I just played through ME1 again recently and much of the dialogue is awful. Tali and Liara are walking codex entries whose word budget was spent near entirely on info dumps about their species (Tali being the worst offender, she's a snooze fest in ME1), Garrus has almost none of his later personality, and Kaidan varies from whiny to boring. All of the romance arcs feel rushed and don't progress naturally. Characters also stand ramrod still during conversations, making the conversation scenes far less natural or cinematic than they were in the third game. ME3's dialogue was, simply, cr*p. I barely got any options on what to say, and when I did there was typically only two options: sad or p*ssed off. This might make the conversations feel more "natural" (I'm sure the conversations flow much better when there are only red and blue channels to account for) but it certainly doesn't feel much like an RPG. More like a shooter with dialogue options. Wait you mean a literal apocalypse happening as we speak. Millions of people being killed entire platoons being wiped out in single attacks. And the conversation is suppose to be light hearted and cheerful?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 21:35:00 GMT
Not at all. I think the dialogue improved throughout the three games, with ME3 being the series' highpoint and Mass Effect 1 being it's lowest. I just played through ME1 again recently and much of the dialogue is awful. Tali and Liara are walking codex entries whose word budget was spent near entirely on info dumps about their species (Tali being the worst offender, she's a snooze fest in ME1), Garrus has almost none of his later personality, and Kaidan varies from whiny to boring. All of the romance arcs feel rushed and don't progress naturally. Characters also stand ramrod still during conversations, making the conversation scenes far less natural or cinematic than they were in the third game. ME3's dialogue was, simply, cr*p. I barely got any options on what to say, and when I did there was typically only two options: sad or p*ssed off. This might make the conversations feel more "natural" (I'm sure the conversations flow much better when there are only red and blue channels to account for) but it certainly doesn't feel much like an RPG. More like a shooter with dialogue options. ME1 did not give the player more dialogue choices than ME3. It just provided the illusion of more options, by giving you three choices where two of the options were actually identical. ME1 even when it actually gives you three options has more clunkers than every other game in the trilogy. The dialogue is painfully bad and the companion characters largely poorly developed.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 28, 2016 21:37:03 GMT
ME3's dialogue was, simply, cr*p. I barely got any options on what to say, and when I did there was typically only two options: sad or p*ssed off. This might make the conversations feel more "natural" (I'm sure the conversations flow much better when there are only red and blue channels to account for) but it certainly doesn't feel much like an RPG. More like a shooter with dialogue options. Wait you mean a literal apocalypse happening as we speak. Millions of people being killed entire platoons being wiped out in single attacks. And the conversation is suppose to be light hearted and cheerful? Yes. That's exactly what i said.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 28, 2016 21:38:49 GMT
ME3's dialogue was, simply, cr*p. I barely got any options on what to say, and when I did there was typically only two options: sad or p*ssed off. This might make the conversations feel more "natural" (I'm sure the conversations flow much better when there are only red and blue channels to account for) but it certainly doesn't feel much like an RPG. More like a shooter with dialogue options. ME1 did not give the player more dialogue choices than ME3. It just provided the illusion of more options, by giving you three choices where two of the options were actually identical. ME1 even when it actually gives you three options has more clunkers than every other game in the trilogy. The dialogue is painfully bad. Sometimes sure. But instead of improving it, they "streamlined" it. Making the railroaded nature feel even more...railroaded...
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 28, 2016 22:06:54 GMT
Wait you mean a literal apocalypse happening as we speak. Millions of people being killed entire platoons being wiped out in single attacks. And the conversation is suppose to be light hearted and cheerful? Yes. That's exactly what i said. I agree with Iakus, and I'm not asking for options to be happy or make unfitting jokes, I was just disappointed it wasn't possible to pick the "let's keep ourselves coolheaded and get the job done!" option in many scenarios. I did like they tried to make more dramatically charged dialogue, the same approach DA2 had in some fashion becuase it helps immerse you in the plot rather than simply roleplaying with you character being an extension of yourself. They tried to make Shepard a character in ME3 and I hated it because that's not the character he had just been in my previous playthroughs. Had they just avoided breaking the continuity of my character from ME1 and ME2 I would've been less harsh about the railroaded dialogue. The autodialogue is IMO terrible in BioWare games in general unless it's like in DA2 and it follows your tendency of behavior rather than being prescribed, but whenever you DO get a choice I want to be able to say no to the sort of melodrama the paragon/renegade options in ME3 were typically charged with. I played most of ME2 with the idea that my character was emotioanlly invested but when performing a mission and being under pressure to, perhaps, save Miranda's sister in time there's no time for them to speculate about whether Niket is trustworthy or not and my Shepard's responses would be level-headed to reflect that sense of "Let's just wait and see what happens". In ME3 I was forced to tell several military people of high ranking how their morale sucked and Shepard would preach about honor, constantly changing characters around him like he's jesus because everything he says the characters just gobble up like it's gold because "Oh, praise the lord, it's Shepard!" and to me that felt really lame and melodramatic. One of the most groan-worthy moments was when I picked the paragon option for the lack of a neutral line on Tuchanka about to launch the Genophage Cure plan, the Krogan queen asks "Who wants to cure the genophage?" and Shepard makes an overly theatrical pose right in the center of attention and says "I do!!"... Ugh. He's obnoxious in that game. That's kind of another issue of ME3's writing than what I initially highlighted in the topic though. I think the meandering dialogue is worse than the overdramatic dialogue. The melodrama has the same effect as the corny dialogue of ME1. It's bad but it's written with an intent without copping out of that.
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Post by Darth Dennis on Nov 28, 2016 22:52:50 GMT
This thread makes me realise how much better Mass Effect would be without the dialogue wheel.
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Post by midnightwolf on Nov 28, 2016 23:12:34 GMT
Yup, much of Shepards auto-dialogue irritates me in ME:3, and makes him feel like he isn't mine anymore. Which defies the point of "role-playing". The worst one for me, was his reaction to Thessia and the dialogue choices afterward. WHY was he so upset? Why couldn't he tell the Asari that they brought it on themselves. And had they gotten down from their "superior high horse" and joined the War effort, maybe they wouldn't be wiped out?!
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themikefest
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Post by themikefest on Nov 28, 2016 23:20:09 GMT
Yup, much of Shepards auto-dialogue irritates me in ME:3, and makes him feel like he isn't mine anymore. Which defies the point of "role-playing". The worst one for me, was his reaction to Thessia and the dialogue choices afterward. WHY was he so upset? Why couldn't he tell the Asari that they brought it on themselves. And had they gotten down from their "superior high horse" and joined the War effort, maybe they wouldn't be wiped out?! Yep. At times I felt like I was playing my Shepard's stunt double.
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gothpunkboy89
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 29, 2016 1:03:39 GMT
Wait you mean a literal apocalypse happening as we speak. Millions of people being killed entire platoons being wiped out in single attacks. And the conversation is suppose to be light hearted and cheerful? Yes. That's exactly what i said. You are directly complaining about how the dialogue is sad or angry. Which fits the whole literal apocalypse, millions of people dying every day, etc.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Nov 29, 2016 1:47:41 GMT
Yes. That's exactly what i said. You are directly complaining about how the dialogue is sad or angry. Which fits the whole literal apocalypse, millions of people dying every day, etc. Where's the hope? The determination? Where is the gallows humor, the laughter that keeps you from screaming? Where is the stoicism? Where's the living for the moment, the "end of the world dancing" as Joker points out?
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Link"Guess"ski
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linkenski
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 29, 2016 2:05:36 GMT
You are directly complaining about how the dialogue is sad or angry. Which fits the whole literal apocalypse, millions of people dying every day, etc. Where's the hope? The determination? Where is the gallows humor, the laughter that keeps you from screaming? Where is the stoicism? Where's the living for the moment, the "end of the world dancing" as Joker points out? Exactly this. We're being railroaded into something that feels patronizing. If the DA:I designers had worked ME3 they would've given us the opportunity to select from different viewpoints and not just "I'm sad about Earth" and "I'm just angry, fuck the Reapers!" I do have a feeling the overall design was due to the incredible ambition of the project being planned for a 1.5 year dev cycle so they chose to cut the dialogue, but another part in me believes they actively wanted to skimp on it to make a "better story" or something or because they were lazy or something. And again, I just hated how both option A and B were really caught up in emotionalism. I know everything is very dire, but it's even a theme in the game that Shepard is under pressure, so one side of that should've been to tackle everything with a mask or you know.... the NEUTRAL DIALOGUE that worked so well in ME1 and ME2? Like, why? I think it's nonsense to say, as Patrick and Mac did on Twitter, that "Because it's war there's no middle-ground" or something to that effect. That's a total BS excuse for half the dialogue which has nothing to do with picking sides -- none of it is about picking sides, it doesn't even relate. I'm just glad they've allegedly gone away from this again, for Mass Effect Andromeda, I mean. Honestly though, I don't mind it too much if the Ryders have a decent amount of autodialogue. If it means there's distinct "default" characterization for brother and sister then I actually WANT there to be more autodialogue, because it would reinforce replayability. Best outcome would be to give us options in both that still reflect them being two different characters.
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