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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 29, 2016 2:56:12 GMT
You are directly complaining about how the dialogue is sad or angry. Which fits the whole literal apocalypse, millions of people dying every day, etc. Where's the hope? The determination? Where is the gallows humor, the laughter that keeps you from screaming? Where is the stoicism? Where's the living for the moment, the "end of the world dancing" as Joker points out? or Or
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Post by Iakus on Nov 29, 2016 5:15:15 GMT
So Garrus knows how to unwind. Plus only two dialogue options (plus the option to shoot the bottle)for Shepard
DLC. Wrex screws with some salarians. What does this say about the option for Shepard to do so?
An example of p*ssed off Shepard. And note there's only three dialogue options for the whole conversation, which is an unusually high number for ME3
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 5:47:20 GMT
I recommend trying out a couple of free games, like Blade and Soul or Revelation on line to get a benchmark for truly awful dialogue and railroading. I do understand that saying that something is worse is not making anyone feel better about their pet peeves. But, Frankly, ME3 is enjoyable despite the liberties taken with the autodialogues. I found it grating in the beginning, but imo it was better as game progressed. It still preserved a lot of player input and alternative resolutions.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 29, 2016 13:57:37 GMT
So Garrus knows how to unwind. Plus only two dialogue options (plus the option to shoot the bottle)for Shepard DLC. Wrex screws with some salarians. What does this say about the option for Shepard to do so? An example of p*ssed off Shepard. And note there's only three dialogue options for the whole conversation, which is an unusually high number for ME3 And your examples are? Because lets be realistic here to try and post every video of ever existing in the game is a bit unrealistic.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 30, 2016 23:45:52 GMT
I recommend trying out a couple of free games, like Blade and Soul or Revelation on line to get a benchmark for truly awful dialogue and railroading. I do understand that saying that something is worse is not making anyone feel better about their pet peeves. But, Frankly, ME3 is enjoyable despite the liberties taken with the autodialogues. I found it grating in the beginning, but imo it was better as game progressed. It still preserved a lot of player input and alternative resolutions. I think everyone here knows what truly bad dialogue is, but are we really going to compare the likes of The Room to BioWare which is a self-proclaimed study that emphasis on storytelling? The reason I find it at fault is because they're falling right down there with some of the middle-bad tier developers when it comes to dialogue in a few places. There's just some absolutely thoughtless dialogue sometimes, but the good used to outweigh the bad. It still does but not as much I don't think because of too much meandering dialogue with nothing to say.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 21:09:55 GMT
Sorry, I disagree. Bioware on a bad day is miles ahead of anything else I saw on their best day. I've strayed for two games, and I am returning to the fold, tail between my legs, because I cannot stand the cheap hacks making other games. Just today, I was reading a post from a player that extolled the virtues of Role-playing, where role-playing was about creating the prettiest loli you could make and putting the prettiest dresses on her. Those games have plots and dialogues to satisfy this kind of role-players....
I was just playing a CBT for Revelation On-line, reputedly written by one of the best and popular Chinese novelists, and the most entertaining part of that rather long main story-line (I spent eight days of my game-time on it), and was that most of it was still in Chinese with a Chinese voice-over. That's bad.
ME3 had wonderful emotional moments (like Thane's or Anderson's stuff!)and I am one of the few people who obviously just landed on Planet Earth, because I've loved, just loved the endings.
I am also feel I should take into account that the autodialogue in the beginning also served the purpose of the info-dumps to bring up to speed the player who did not play previous 2 games.
I did love the short-story style of the bulk of the Mass Effect 2, with each mission being a story rotating around a companion. But, if I did end playing the game when ME2 was just released where ME2 ended, I'd be asking myself where did the game go? What did I really do save for recruiting an uber-team to do... what?
I can see ME1 being a stand-alone story, but ME2-ME3, I can't imagine without one another. It starts out with a very personal, small-scale dialogues, and then dwells on major philosophical concepts in ME3 with much less personal story. I found the Shepard's trajectory in ME3 fascinating, and the themes of personality, individuality, digital vs organic, fate etc, and also trying to handle multiple sides of the conflict, and include the tangents like Geths vs Quarians - quite a lofty goal to tackle in a video-game.
The ME3 was surprisingly more complex than the usual: will you take the Ancient Evil's Power for Yourself or Reject it, Oh, ye Prophesized One? Then ride into sunset regardless of the choice.
Were I an editor, I would have left on the floor most parts of the cutscenes with the Child-Prophet, because I found them insipid, and would have chopped a bunch of lines here and there, so Shepard wastes less time talking. Then, some modding hack would snoop through all the folders, pick it up, insert it, and everyone would go: "Oh! Ah! That's sooooo much better! We can get it now!"
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Post by warbaby2 on Dec 4, 2016 12:30:26 GMT
Yup, especially compared to newer games like Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny or the upcoming Tides of Numenara, the term creative bankruptcy comes to mind... but by now, people should be used to it with BW. Personally, I relegated myself to enjoying individual, little story beats in their games, because the overall stories are generally formulaic and predictable at best and outright illogical and ridiculous at worst.
That's what happens when you get rid of all your writers in favor of focus group directed drones...
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 5, 2016 1:02:57 GMT
A guy over at GAF kinda put his finger on something I agree with that ties into this.
It's this in particular that's become bad since ME3 and then DA:I. I haven't seen anything so far of ME:A indicating it's more of this. The dialogue in the gameplay demo sounded tight enough.
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Post by warbaby2 on Dec 5, 2016 2:03:14 GMT
A guy over at GAF kinda put his finger on something I agree with that ties into this. It's this in particular that's become bad since ME3 and then DA:I. I haven't seen anything so far of ME:A indicating it's more of this. The dialogue in the gameplay demo sounded tight enough. Maybe they got some actual writers back into the team then? That would be good... Personally, I only hope for two things for the writing... well, actually three, but that's neither here nor there: - Have an actual, believable main story - shouldn't be to hard with what is essentially a Star Trek ripoff - and "human" characters. - Cut back on the auto dialogue... I want to actually choose what Ryder says, not guess what the next 10 lines might entail. - Please please please for the love of Cthulhu: Leave your new found sociopolitical coloring out of the game... the only thing worse then weak writing is weak writing with a "message". You are entertainers, not educators...
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 5, 2016 19:34:50 GMT
A guy over at GAF kinda put his finger on something I agree with that ties into this. It's this in particular that's become bad since ME3 and then DA:I. I haven't seen anything so far of ME:A indicating it's more of this. The dialogue in the gameplay demo sounded tight enough. Maybe they got some actual writers back into the team then? That would be good... Personally, I only hope for two things for the writing... well, actually three, but that's neither here nor there: - Have an actual, believable main story - shouldn't be to hard with what is essentially a Star Trek ripoff - and "human" characters. - Cut back on the auto dialogue... I want to actually choose what Ryder says, not guess what the next 10 lines might entail. - Please please please for the love of Cthulhu: Leave your new found sociopolitical coloring out of the game... the only thing worse then weak writing is weak writing with a "message". You are entertainers, not educators... What is the difference between educators and entertainers? Why can't you be both?
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Post by warbaby2 on Dec 6, 2016 1:08:00 GMT
Maybe they got some actual writers back into the team then? That would be good... Personally, I only hope for two things for the writing... well, actually three, but that's neither here nor there: - Have an actual, believable main story - shouldn't be to hard with what is essentially a Star Trek ripoff - and "human" characters. - Cut back on the auto dialogue... I want to actually choose what Ryder says, not guess what the next 10 lines might entail. - Please please please for the love of Cthulhu: Leave your new found sociopolitical coloring out of the game... the only thing worse then weak writing is weak writing with a "message". You are entertainers, not educators... What is the difference between educators and entertainers? Why can't you be both? In BW case? Because they became bad at both... not saying that it's a universal contradiction.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 6, 2016 2:03:11 GMT
What is the difference between educators and entertainers? Why can't you be both? In BW case? Because they became bad at both... not saying that it's a universal contradiction. Including openly homosexual characters that could be romanced is a sociopolitical action. Particularly given the time the games were released that sort of open display of homsosexually in major games wasn't even vaugly common. Not that it is exactly super common right now.
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Post by warbaby2 on Dec 6, 2016 2:33:46 GMT
In BW case? Because they became bad at both... not saying that it's a universal contradiction. Including openly homosexual characters that could be romanced is a sociopolitical action. Particularly given the time the games were released that sort of open display of homsosexually in major games wasn't even vaguely common. Not that it is exactly super common right now. So? Why should it be? Just because identity politics seam to be so damn important in our real world right now, doesn't mean they have to be represented in every fictional setting too... You want to have openly homosexual characters in your game? Fine, but don't make those characters only about that. Real life people aren't like that. I've known fiends of mine for months before the topic of their homosexuality even came up, and it was a total non issue. Don't sit the player down and give them a 10 minute explained about what transgenderism is (Kram in DAI), especially when it's irrelevant to the story...
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 6, 2016 6:05:47 GMT
Including openly homosexual characters that could be romanced is a sociopolitical action. Particularly given the time the games were released that sort of open display of homsosexually in major games wasn't even vaguely common. Not that it is exactly super common right now. So? Why should it be? Just because identity politics seam to be so damn important in our real world right now, doesn't mean they have to be represented in every fictional setting too... You want to have openly homosexual characters in your game? Fine, but don't make those characters only about that. Real life people aren't like that. I've known fiends of mine for months before the topic of their homosexuality even came up, and it was a total non issue. Don't sit the player down and give them a 10 minute explained about what transgenderism is (Kram in DAI), especially when it's irrelevant to the story... And yet by adding those to the game they normalize them in the general public's view. Taking a side group that is normally ignored by the greater population and bringing them to the light. How do you think so many social issues have been altered across time? DAI takes around 150 hours to complete everything. Lets for sake of argument say 100. That 10 minutes to explain transgenderism represents a grand total of 0.16% of total time played in game. If they want to get up on a soap box for less time then it takes to complete the tutorial level in Skyrim from start to finish. I think we can all grin and bare it. Mass Effect is full of it rather ironically. The way the Krogan and Quarians are treated just drips with social commentary. Cerberus the anti alien pro human group. Oh so easy with so many moments to replace Quarian with any race, religion or sexual orientation and have it still fit. You want to talk about writing that gets on a soap box and never gets off to the point they render the plot near incoherent with their constant denouncing of a character because they aren't the second incarnation of (insert deity). Read the Halo Kilo-Five Trilogy written by Karen Traviss. That trilogy gets up on a soap box about the Spartan 2 project and Halsey and never gets off. To the point the author alters and warps establish characters and their established lore simply so they can continue to go after Halsey. I don't know if it was the author her self or 343 Studios who pushed her into making it like that. But sweet mary jane does the book have massive plot inconsistency and plot holes simply so they can stand on their soap box.
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Post by warbaby2 on Dec 6, 2016 9:46:50 GMT
So? Why should it be? Just because identity politics seam to be so damn important in our real world right now, doesn't mean they have to be represented in every fictional setting too... You want to have openly homosexual characters in your game? Fine, but don't make those characters only about that. Real life people aren't like that. I've known fiends of mine for months before the topic of their homosexuality even came up, and it was a total non issue. Don't sit the player down and give them a 10 minute explained about what transgenderism is (Kram in DAI), especially when it's irrelevant to the story... And yet by adding those to the game they normalize them in the general public's view. Taking a side group that is normally ignored by the greater population and bringing them to the light. How do you think so many social issues have been altered across time? DAI takes around 150 hours to complete everything. Lets for sake of argument say 100. That 10 minutes to explain transgenderism represents a grand total of 0.16% of total time played in game. If they want to get up on a soap box for less time then it takes to complete the tutorial level in Skyrim from start to finish. I think we can all grin and bare it. Mass Effect is full of it rather ironically. The way the Krogan and Quarians are treated just drips with social commentary. Cerberus the anti alien pro human group. Oh so easy with so many moments to replace Quarian with any race, religion or sexual orientation and have it still fit. You want to talk about writing that gets on a soap box and never gets off to the point they render the plot near incoherent with their constant denouncing of a character because they aren't the second incarnation of (insert deity). Read the Halo Kilo-Five Trilogy written by Karen Traviss. That trilogy gets up on a soap box about the Spartan 2 project and Halsey and never gets off. To the point the author alters and warps establish characters and their established lore simply so they can continue to go after Halsey. I don't know if it was the author her self or 343 Studios who pushed her into making it like that. But sweet mary jane does the book have massive plot inconsistency and plot holes simply so they can stand on their soap box. Well, as I said, there is fitting social commentary presented by the story of the game, and then there is outright "education" through dialogue... and I just think the latter is just not what games should do. It's cheap, and it also does nothing to "normalize" a topic - if anything it shines a spotlight on it and pulls the player out of the narrative to look at it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 12:50:50 GMT
A guy over at GAF kinda put his finger on something I agree with that ties into this. It's this in particular that's become bad since ME3 and then DA:I. I haven't seen anything so far of ME:A indicating it's more of this. The dialogue in the gameplay demo sounded tight enough. Maybe they got some actual writers back into the team then? That would be good... Personally, I only hope for two things for the writing... well, actually three, but that's neither here nor there: - Have an actual, believable main story - shouldn't be to hard with what is essentially a Star Trek ripoff - and "human" characters. - Cut back on the auto dialogue... I want to actually choose what Ryder says, not guess what the next 10 lines might entail. - Please please please for the love of Cthulhu: Leave your new found sociopolitical coloring out of the game... the only thing worse then weak writing is weak writing with a "message". You are entertainers, not educators... Since this thread title is really saying ME3 was worse than ME1 or ME2, lets compare them on these points. I really don't think ME3 was worse. Believable main story: ME1 - An Unknowable "god" left behind by his mates corrupts a Turian spectre and convinces him to hire a geth army to terrorize a galaxy and find an illusive conduit to sneak into the Citadel Council chambers... when said spectre could just walk into those same council chambers any day of the week. Turian spectre also engages in completely unnecessary Krogan breeding experiments and Salarian indoctrination (with the cooperation of said "god') for purposes absolutely unnecessary to the stated mission of opening up the citadel to allow the other unknowable "gods" to return and kill every space-faring species in the galaxy anyways. ME1's story was always unbelievable. Amount of Autodialogue: ME1 we were continually given choices that weren't choices at all. You could select the left paraphrase or the right paraphrase and the PC would utter the exact same line. ME3 just took out the need to select either a left or right paraphrase. In short, it just streamlined a problem that already existed in ME1. Furthermore, in ME1, a lot of the paragon and renegade choices did not result in any significant difference to the course of events or even in the reaction of the NPC to the dialogue. For example, in the Major Kyle mission, you could choose "He needs my help" or "He'll get you all killed" and, regardless, the response was basically that "Father Kyle will see you now." IMO, ME3 actually offered a larger number of pertinent dialogue choices than ME1 - i.e. choices that were actually choices and that actually resulted in different outcomes during the game. (Only the ending faltered in this respect.) New Found Sociopolitical Coloring: ME1 (L'Etoile) gave us a definite lecture from Ashley on religion. "Haven't you people looked out a window..." and we have a clear lecture on sexual tolerance from Liara. The game was also going on and on about the uselessness of bureacracy (i.e. in the form of the Council), and Garrus' ranting about C-Sec was a definite lecture in this regard. We also had a lecture on military spending (Admiral Mikhailovich), and on conflicts of interest in finance (Barla Von) and on class systems (again, Barla Von - Presidium "people like us" bit vs. Wards "surprises, but most of them are pleasant bit)... need I go on? The sociopolitical lecturing element was there in the ME Trilogy from the start. IMO, it was actually toned down a lot AFTER ME1. Also, from the level of many of the discussions here, I think, people gravitate towards the Mass Effect Trilogy BECAUSE it's story is so sociopolitical... not in spite of it. As I told linkenski, if you can take off the rose-colored glasses regarding ME1 (i.e. set aside any personal love compaigns for certain ME1 authors and personal hate campaigns against particular ME3 authors) and maybe you'd be able to see that, in many respects, the writing in the Mass Effect Trilogy actually improved a little between ME1 and ME3. Certainly, ME3 has its flaws and the writing could still use a great deal of improvement... but it was simply not worse than the writing in ME1.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 7, 2016 18:03:04 GMT
Believable main story: ME1 - An Unknowable "god" left behind by his mates corrupts a Turian spectre and convinces him to hire a geth army to terrorize a galaxy and find an illusive conduit to sneak into the Citadel Council chambers... when said spectre could just walk into those same council chambers any day of the week. Turian spectre also engages in completely unnecessary Krogan breeding experiments and Salarian indoctrination (with the cooperation of said "god') for purposes absolutely unnecessary to the stated mission of opening up the citadel to allow the other unknowable "gods" to return and kill every space-faring species in the galaxy anyways. ME1's story was always unbelievable. You are assuming Saren knew all along what was wrong with Sovereign's signal and he knew what to do to get the Citadel going again. I do not believe he knew until shortly before Shepard did (ie, he had to get to Ilos to figure it out as well) It's also a very old story. Compare to Babylon 5's Shadow Wars, Fred Saberhagen's Berserker series, Star Trek's borg, etc. Streamlining =/="fixing" If anyhting it makes the problem more apparent. Fixing would be giving dialogue that actually mattered. As it is, there's plenty of binary dialogue chocies i ME3 that don't do anything more than changes the first line of the responce given by the NPC before the conversation goes back on the rails.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 18:20:04 GMT
Believable main story: ME1 - An Unknowable "god" left behind by his mates corrupts a Turian spectre and convinces him to hire a geth army to terrorize a galaxy and find an illusive conduit to sneak into the Citadel Council chambers... when said spectre could just walk into those same council chambers any day of the week. Turian spectre also engages in completely unnecessary Krogan breeding experiments and Salarian indoctrination (with the cooperation of said "god') for purposes absolutely unnecessary to the stated mission of opening up the citadel to allow the other unknowable "gods" to return and kill every space-faring species in the galaxy anyways. ME1's story was always unbelievable. You are assuming Saren knew all along what was wrong with Sovereign's signal and he knew what to do to get the Citadel going again. I do not believe he knew until shortly before Shepard did (ie, he had to get to Ilos to figure it out as well) It's also a very old story. Compare to Babylon 5's Shadow Wars, Fred Saberhagen's Berserker series, Star Trek's borg, etc. Streamlining =/="fixing" If anyhting it makes the problem more apparent. Fixing would be giving dialogue that actually mattered. As it is, there's plenty of binary dialogue chocies i ME3 that don't do anything more than changes the first line of the responce given by the NPC before the conversation goes back on the rails. IF Sovereign itself knew what was wrong, then Saren had the best chance of knowing what was wrong of anyone in the galaxy and Saren was well aware that he was searching for the Conduit and that activating the Conduit would enable the return of the Reapers (per Tali's recording). What's unbelievable is that Sovereign didn't know it needed to access the Citadel to recall the Reapers... the Conduit just being a convoluted way to access the Citadel. You can try to reconcile it a number of ways, but the basic premise of this "unknowable and eternal entity" not being able to figure out that it needed access to the Citadel when the lowly Protheans could figure it out is simply unbelievable. Also, I'm not the one making an assumption... you are, since neither Sovereign nor Saren ever gives any indication that they don't know what went wrong with the signal. I agree that the better solution would be more dialogue choices that truly matter... although that would make it more and more difficult to "house" the game on the old-gen console systems since content covering all those different possible choices would also have to be included. Even as it is, I believe there are more relevant choices to be made in ME3 than in ME1 and the autodialogue mostly just does away with the extra step of having to select a paraphrase from two that results in the exact same line being delivered either way. Furthermore, ME3 actually made a number of the choices from ME1 that had absolutely no relevance to the ending of that game at least relevant to the trilogy overall... e.g. Shooting Wrex or not made absolutely no lick of difference in ME1 but became a very significant choice in ME3; choosing whether or not to get Jenna out of Chora's Den made no difference at all in ME1... but was made relevant to saving Verner in ME3. There were still many many choices made in ME1 that had no impact anywhere - It simply didn't matter whether or not you took the paragon or renegade route with the preaching Hanar or whether or not you told Rebekah to go with the gene therapy on her child or not or even whether or not you had sex with Sha'ira. Having the autodialogue rather than a false choice IS, IMO, an improvement even if it isn't a complete fix for the problem... The REAL problem being a lack of computing resources to offer full and relevant choices for every decision each player might want to be able to make on behalf of their player character. The game quite simply has to have some limits or it gets too unwieldy... too many flags and toggles and too many different voiced lines and cut scene animations to fit on an old-gen console.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 7, 2016 19:06:23 GMT
The Reapers are amazing. I shudder every time someone goes with the "they were too big a threat" argument or stuff like that. First of all I didn't even expect there would be some kind of openscale war against them in ME3 - that's a seperate matter, but thematically they represent a lot of the idea behind Mass Effect as a universe, not just because they created the Mass Effect we know but because the entire idea of life beyond Earth and humanity is given a larger perspective with them and it doesn't matter whether you view them as the unknowable gods of ME1 or the stupid synthetic abominations of ME3 - they just remind you by their existence that the further you go out into space, the more you'll probably find that we'll never find out the "truth" of the world and we aren't meant to. The threat they pose is also related to the cycle of life or as they label it "cycle of destruction". It's like the "everything is nothing" kind of thinking. They simply represent the cycle of existence. It's awesome, stop making them sound like a bad idea.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 19:15:14 GMT
The Reapers are amazing. I shudder every time someone goes with the "they were too big a threat" argument or stuff like that. First of all I didn't even expect there would be some kind of openscale war against them in ME3 - that's a seperate matter, but thematically they represent a lot of the idea behind Mass Effect as a universe, not just because they created the Mass Effect we know but because the entire idea of life beyond Earth and humanity is given a larger perspective with them and it doesn't matter whether you view them as the unknowable gods of ME1 or the stupid synthetic abominations of ME3 - they just remind you by their existence that the further you go out into space, the more you'll probably find that we'll never find out the "truth" of the world and we aren't meant to. The threat they pose is also related to the cycle of life or as they label it "cycle of destruction". It's like the "everything is nothing" kind of thinking. They simply represent the cycle of existence. It's awesome, stop making them sound like a bad idea. I reserve the write not to idolize the ME1 authors as gods the same way you do. The story is not the be all and end all of sci-fi that you want to make it out to be... and I never said the Reapers were "too big a threat" - just not a believable characterization of such a threat from the start. The problems people keep citing about the ME Trilogy story, like it or lump it, began in ME1 with the writers who conceived at that time. They did not just pop in with ME3 because L'Etoile and Karpyshyn left. The story premise was always on the level of a child's comic. It was never Shakespeare and was never going to be Shakespeare. However, all three instalments were reasonably good video games.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 7, 2016 19:27:17 GMT
1 and 2 are incredible and 3 is really good and at the same time really crappy. I'd say 1 is awesome from a writing standpoint and IMO 2 is as well just minus a sensible plot, but 3 while it has better atmosphere, better sense of urgency has shit-tier writing several times. When ME1's writing is in lower tier it's only so because it sounds dorky or not like dialogue you would actually say outloud as opposed to read in a book, but the story behind it is usually fine. In ME3 there's just so much crappy dialogue with no fucking point to it. Period So naturally, if you value the presentation (glitches aside) and gameplay or adrenaline-factor more, obviously ME3 is a fine game. If you however weigh a lot in on the story and game-design outside of just shooty shooty bang bang, ME3 is a bad game and doesn't fall into the same tier of "great" as the other two. I also don't think any of it is shakespeare. It's fine if it's comic book but for ME3 they target a lower common denominator and michael bay-style garbage coupled with grimdark writing over the nerdier but more substantial craft of the previous games.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 7, 2016 20:52:22 GMT
1 and 2 are incredible and 3 is really good and at the same time really crappy. I'd say 1 is awesome from a writing standpoint and IMO 2 is as well just minus a sensible plot, but 3 while it has better atmosphere, better sense of urgency has shit-tier writing several times. When ME1's writing is in lower tier it's only so because it sounds dorky or not like dialogue you would actually say outloud as opposed to read in a book, but the story behind it is usually fine. In ME3 there's just so much crappy dialogue with no fucking point to it. Period So naturally, if you value the presentation (glitches aside) and gameplay or adrenaline-factor more, obviously ME3 is a fine game. If you however weigh a lot in on the story and game-design outside of just shooty shooty bang bang, ME3 is a bad game and doesn't fall into the same tier of "great" as the other two. I also don't think any of it is shakespeare. It's fine if it's comic book but for ME3 they target a lower common denominator and michael bay-style garbage coupled with grimdark writing over the nerdier but more substantial craft of the previous games. But it isn't. The common theme with all your posts is you cheery pick good parts and then ignore the bad parts and the declare it better then any of the other ones while at the same time doing the cherry picking. Every example you have given that I have seen is exactly how I have heard people in the real world talk. So some how it being bad because it is more realistic (at least in my experiences) doesn't fit. That is a far greater improvement over characters simply being mouth pieces for story and nothing beyond that. Which is a lot of what the characters in ME 1 were. 1.5D characters who exist only to introduce their race and it's back story. Garrus, Tali, Wrex, and Liara don't really gain a 2nd or 3rd dimension as a character till ME 2/3 beyond this is the average personality of X race. Ash is pretty much just an ignorant military grunt finally interacting with something that isn't human and coming off as mildly racists if not xenophobic. Kaden is the only one who seems to have more then 1 dimension to his character. But even he is limited to simply being a mouth piece about early biotic implants.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 8, 2016 17:55:13 GMT
"You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!" ME1 Shep auto-dialogue. I still don't understand why everyone hates on that line. It's a little cheesy sure, but why is it dumb? Shepard is just dismissing Sovereign's claims of unknowable higher intellect, going so far as to disregard his very claim to sapience. And of course ME3 validates him on that. There are people here who to this day refer to geth as toasters, flat out denying anything special about them, despite all evidence to the contrary. I don't agree with them, but I don't they're stupid for doing so. The Reapers are way above geth, to be sure, but that's not to say you can't dismiss them the same way, as highly advanced but ultimately still dumb robots following orders. Again, as the ending does anyway. Believable main story: ME1 - An Unknowable "god" left behind by his mates corrupts a Turian spectre and convinces him to hire a geth army to terrorize a galaxy and find an illusive conduit to sneak into the Citadel Council chambers... when said spectre could just walk into those same council chambers any day of the week. Turian spectre also engages in completely unnecessary Krogan breeding experiments and Salarian indoctrination (with the cooperation of said "god') for purposes absolutely unnecessary to the stated mission of opening up the citadel to allow the other unknowable "gods" to return and kill every space-faring species in the galaxy anyways. ME1's story was always unbelievable. You assume that just because Saren can walk into the Citadel Tower at any time, he can also fiddle with the main control console in full view of everyone with no one batting a eye. That he wouldn't be gunned down the moment someone (especially the Council) told him to stop and he refused, especially when they detected a giant warship of unknown configuration speeding towards them, crashing through their fleet and all that was keeping the arms open was Saren. As for Virmire, the krogan cloning was likely to supplement geth ground troops for taking the Citadel. How many geth did he have with him anyway, more to the point, how many ground platforms could they spare, while keeping enough programs in their ships to be effective for the fleet battle? And ultimately if you can back your forces up with the current second strongest (debatably strongest) species in the galaxy, why wouldn't you? The salarians as I recall were captured STG. IF Sovereign itself knew what was wrong, then Saren had the best chance of knowing what was wrong of anyone in the galaxy and Saren was well aware that he was searching for the Conduit and that activating the Conduit would enable the return of the Reapers (per Tali's recording). What's unbelievable is that Sovereign didn't know it needed to access the Citadel to recall the Reapers... the Conduit just being a convoluted way to access the Citadel. You can try to reconcile it a number of ways, but the basic premise of this "unknowable and eternal entity" not being able to figure out that it needed access to the Citadel when the lowly Protheans could figure it out is simply unbelievable. Also, I'm not the one making an assumption... you are, since neither Sovereign nor Saren ever gives any indication that they don't know what went wrong with the signal. Pretty big if. Sovereign sends signal to keepers, keepers return 403: Access Denied (or don't even respond at all). Sovereign wasn't exactly in a position to troubleshoot. It must've assumed the Protheans did something to stop the signal. But how to find out? Well it can't bumrush the Citadel, because even it would be destroyed alone. Even with teh geth, they might defeat the Citadel fleet but the Citadel itself would still be closed, forcing Sovereign to take who knows how long to burn through. So if you can't investigate the effect yet, investigate the source- the Protheans. Well they're all dead so you can't question them. Oh but it seems they left these beacon things behind. That might work. Oh- it can't access the beacons because they're coded to organics. Clever, but not clever enough. Let's indoctrinate someone with power and influence who can go looking for beacons and find out. They found a beacon on Eden Prime- it's go time. From there, the quest is the same as Shepard's only one step ahead. It's a reasonable chain of inferences. The bad guys not letting on what they did or didn't know is irrelevant since we don't see any scenes of them discussing among themselves, apart from Saren's freakout in the beginning. The Reapers are amazing. I shudder every time someone goes with the "they were too big a threat" argument or stuff like that. First of all I didn't even expect there would be some kind of openscale war against them in ME3 - that's a seperate matter, but thematically they represent a lot of the idea behind Mass Effect as a universe, not just because they created the Mass Effect we know but because the entire idea of life beyond Earth and humanity is given a larger perspective with them and it doesn't matter whether you view them as the unknowable gods of ME1 or the stupid synthetic abominations of ME3 - they just remind you by their existence that the further you go out into space, the more you'll probably find that we'll never find out the "truth" of the world and we aren't meant to. The threat they pose is also related to the cycle of life or as they label it "cycle of destruction". It's like the "everything is nothing" kind of thinking. They simply represent the cycle of existence. It's awesome, stop making them sound like a bad idea. I agree with most of this but they were still too big a threat. The problem is twofold- one, going straight to the cosmic level threat when you could've spent some time developing more local enemies and building the world. And the second and more important, the resulting clash of themes and intents. The story of Shepard is the power fantasy, the badass everyone swoons over who can solve every problem with bullets and/or red/blue shouting vs the story of the Reapers, the cosmic horror inevitable destruction of everything you hold dear. Unstoppable force, meet immovable object. Something had to give. Either Shepard would be cheapened and falter or the Reapers would. Turns out it was both, hence why the ending is a total piece of shit. They wrote themselves into a corner, and procrastinated until the last moment. So what we ended up with should come as no surprise. If I could venture an opinion as to this topic of writing overall (I know this thread is about dialogue, but I don't have much to say on the matter, I find no faults with dialogue in any of the games apart from some dumbass lines or forced autodialogue), it's this: while the writers got better technically as they became familiar with this world and what they wanted it to say, the overall writing went down the drain for the reasons I stated above. They found their voices, which was good, but they used said voices to spout increasingly nonsensical stuff, which was bad.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 18:34:05 GMT
"You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!" ME1 Shep auto-dialogue. I still don't understand why everyone hates on that line. It's a little cheesy sure, but why is it dumb? Shepard is just dismissing Sovereign's claims of unknowable higher intellect, going so far as to disregard his very claim to sapience. And of course ME3 validates him on that. There are people here who to this day refer to geth as toasters, flat out denying anything special about them, despite all evidence to the contrary. I don't agree with them, but I don't they're stupid for doing so. The Reapers are way above geth, to be sure, but that's not to say you can't dismiss them the same way, as highly advanced but ultimately still dumb robots following orders. Again, as the ending does anyway. Believable main story: ME1 - An Unknowable "god" left behind by his mates corrupts a Turian spectre and convinces him to hire a geth army to terrorize a galaxy and find an illusive conduit to sneak into the Citadel Council chambers... when said spectre could just walk into those same council chambers any day of the week. Turian spectre also engages in completely unnecessary Krogan breeding experiments and Salarian indoctrination (with the cooperation of said "god') for purposes absolutely unnecessary to the stated mission of opening up the citadel to allow the other unknowable "gods" to return and kill every space-faring species in the galaxy anyways. ME1's story was always unbelievable. You assume that just because Saren can walk into the Citadel Tower at any time, he can also fiddle with the main control console in full view of everyone with no one batting a eye. That he wouldn't be gunned down the moment someone (especially the Council) told him to stop and he refused, especially when they detected a giant warship of unknown configuration speeding towards them, crashing through their fleet and all that was keeping the arms open was Saren. As for Virmire, the krogan cloning was likely to supplement geth ground troops for taking the Citadel. How many geth did he have with him anyway, more to the point, how many ground platforms could they spare, while keeping enough programs in their ships to be effective for the fleet battle? And ultimately if you can back your forces up with the current second strongest (debatably strongest) species in the galaxy, why wouldn't you? The salarians as I recall were captured STG. IF Sovereign itself knew what was wrong, then Saren had the best chance of knowing what was wrong of anyone in the galaxy and Saren was well aware that he was searching for the Conduit and that activating the Conduit would enable the return of the Reapers (per Tali's recording). What's unbelievable is that Sovereign didn't know it needed to access the Citadel to recall the Reapers... the Conduit just being a convoluted way to access the Citadel. You can try to reconcile it a number of ways, but the basic premise of this "unknowable and eternal entity" not being able to figure out that it needed access to the Citadel when the lowly Protheans could figure it out is simply unbelievable. Also, I'm not the one making an assumption... you are, since neither Sovereign nor Saren ever gives any indication that they don't know what went wrong with the signal. Pretty big if. Sovereign sends signal to keepers, keepers return 403: Access Denied (or don't even respond at all). Sovereign wasn't exactly in a position to troubleshoot. It must've assumed the Protheans did something to stop the signal. But how to find out? Well it can't bumrush the Citadel, because even it would be destroyed alone. Even with teh geth, they might defeat the Citadel fleet but the Citadel itself would still be closed, forcing Sovereign to take who knows how long to burn through. So if you can't investigate the effect yet, investigate the source- the Protheans. Well they're all dead so you can't question them. Oh but it seems they left these beacon things behind. That might work. Oh- it can't access the beacons because they're coded to organics. Clever, but not clever enough. Let's indoctrinate someone with power and influence who can go looking for beacons and find out. They found a beacon on Eden Prime- it's go time. From there, the quest is the same as Shepard's only one step ahead. It's a reasonable chain of inferences. The bad guys not letting on what they did or didn't know is irrelevant since we don't see any scenes of them discussing among themselves, apart from Saren's freakout in the beginning. The Reapers are amazing. I shudder every time someone goes with the "they were too big a threat" argument or stuff like that. First of all I didn't even expect there would be some kind of openscale war against them in ME3 - that's a seperate matter, but thematically they represent a lot of the idea behind Mass Effect as a universe, not just because they created the Mass Effect we know but because the entire idea of life beyond Earth and humanity is given a larger perspective with them and it doesn't matter whether you view them as the unknowable gods of ME1 or the stupid synthetic abominations of ME3 - they just remind you by their existence that the further you go out into space, the more you'll probably find that we'll never find out the "truth" of the world and we aren't meant to. The threat they pose is also related to the cycle of life or as they label it "cycle of destruction". It's like the "everything is nothing" kind of thinking. They simply represent the cycle of existence. It's awesome, stop making them sound like a bad idea. I agree with most of this but they were still too big a threat. The problem is twofold- one, going straight to the cosmic level threat when you could've spent some time developing more local enemies and building the world. And the second and more important, the resulting clash of themes and intents. The story of Shepard is the power fantasy, the badass everyone swoons over who can solve every problem with bullets and/or red/blue shouting vs the story of the Reapers, the cosmic horror inevitable destruction of everything you hold dear. Unstoppable force, meet immovable object. Something had to give. Either Shepard would be cheapened and falter or the Reapers would. Turns out it was both, hence why the ending is a total piece of shit. They wrote themselves into a corner, and procrastinated until the last moment. So what we ended up with should come as no surprise. If I could venture an opinion as to this topic of writing overall (I know this thread is about dialogue, but I don't have much to say on the matter, I find no faults with dialogue in any of the games apart from some dumbass lines or forced autodialogue), it's this: while the writers got better technically as they became familiar with this world and what they wanted it to say, the overall writing went down the drain for the reasons I stated above. They found their voices, which was good, but they used said voices to spout increasingly nonsensical stuff, which was bad. No, I'm not assuming anything. The Conduit only took Saren to the plaza in front of the Citadel Tower because that's where Shepard wound up as well. Saren still had to get to the Control console... which would have been much easier to do just by quietly walking into the Citadel Tower instead of just appearing on the plaza. Admittedly, his geth minions would not have likely gone unnoticed... but he could have just as easily organized an infiltration using his numerous Asari commandos (dressed up as dancing girls if necessary). Sovereign is supposed to be essentially an all knowing entity and has been at this over an untold number of cycles, so he had to know that the ultimate trouble was that he couldn't get the Citadel relay activated in order to let the other Reapers in. He doesn't have to troubleshoot anything. The keepers are not responding so he knows that he has to get someone on the Citadel to activate the relay. The whole Conduit route is just an unnecessary circular path to the obvious... which makes ME1's main plot pretty much a bunch of unnecessary fluff. The writers could have prevented this simply by having the Conduit directly access an previously unaccessible area of the Citadel rather than the public plaza... but they didn't... and that's simply bad writing. It's not "horrid" writing... but it's not writing that's heads and heals above ME3's writing either... which is my point. The writing is not all that much better or worse in any of the games. Even though the nature of the major flaws changes... all three games have flaws in the writing... and good parts as well. One of the good parts of ME3 was that it took decisions made in ME1 that had no impact on the end game within ME1 and made those decisiolns very relevant to the plot line of ME3. The most profound example is the shooting of Wrex... which was completely irrelevant in ME1 (i.e. the game could end exactly the same way - line for line - regardless of whether Wrex was alive or dead). However, in ME3, whether Wrex was alive or dead is exactly what the future of the Krogan if cured of the genophage relied on. Furthermore, it tied directly into the concerns expressed by Mordin in ME2 about the scenarios that predicted a "fractured" vs. "united" krogan government. I have already said that the ending of ME3 faltered... so I will not go into that further again. I've also explained why I feel the autodialogue is actually also present in ME1. There's just a "pacifier" for the kiddies who want to think they're being allowed a choice when they're not really getting any choice at all. The player can click on different paraphrases... but the dialogue delivered regardless is exactly the same. I've also given examples of loads of "nonsense" dialogues in ME1 - Ashley saying her eyeballs dried out on Therum or Kaidan saying the tiles reminded him of a bathroom floor. Sure, nonsense lines do exist in ME3... but there are quite a number of them in ME1 as well. In ME1, there were also several dialogues where different "investigate" lines repeated information found in other "investigate" lines. Investigating things with Mira and Dr. Cohen is one example of that sort of repetitiveness... or questioning the VI about the nature of the Thorian. Also, ME1 offered a very limited number of conversations with your squad mates on the ship. Most of the time, Garrus would be thanking you, Tali would just ask if you needed something, Kaidan would tell you there would be time for personal debriefings later, and Wrex would just say Shepard. Overall, ME3 squad mate comments were richer... even changing if you did mission in different orders or took different squad mates with you. For example, if you had Ashley aboard and reordered things to take Tali on the Turian bomb and platoon missions, you could overhead a wonderful conversation between them on the ship. ME1 had no moments like that.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 8, 2016 19:59:12 GMT
No, I'm not assuming anything. The Conduit only took Saren to the plaza in front of the Citadel Tower because that's where Shepard wound up as well. Saren still had to get to the Control console... which would have been much easier to do just by quietly walking into the Citadel Tower instead of just appearing on the plaza. Admittedly, his geth minions would not have likely gone unnoticed... but he could have just as easily organized an infiltration using his numerous Asari commandos (dressed up as dancing girls if necessary). And then what? Fiddle with the main control console, which I doubt even Spectres can just do willy nilly in full view of everyone, and then hold that position until Soverign actually docks with the Citadel. Him and a few commandos against the entirety of C-Sec and whatever other military personnel might be stationed there who may be drafted to help. And if he fails? The organics are now on guard, they'll begin investigating in earnest and Sovereign just lost its most influential puppets. I don't think so. Sovereign is supposed to be essentially an all knowing entity and has been at this over an untold number of cycles, so he had to know that the ultimate trouble was that he couldn't get the Citadel relay activated in order to let the other Reapers in. He doesn't have to troubleshoot anything. The keepers are not responding so he knows that he has to get someone on the Citadel to activate the relay. The whole Conduit route is just an unnecessary circular path to the obvious... which makes ME1's main plot pretty much a bunch of unnecessary fluff. The writers could have prevented this simply by having the Conduit directly access an previously unaccessible area of the Citadel rather than the public plaza... but they didn't... and that's simply bad writing. I don't know where you get "all knowing" from. Even at the height of their mysticism, the Reapers were never once referred to as omniscient. Sovereign sent the signal, got the wrong response or maybe no response at all. I don't see why he should "magically" know that the Protheans screwed with the keepers who then refused to listen to the signal. So yes, troubleshooting is required. The end goal may seem simple but trust me, when dealing with complex systems the cause can be anything but. It would also appear that it opening the dark space relay at that point requires a Reaper or specially designed creatures like the keepers (who are no longer an option). Otherwise you could make the case that even with the Conduit once Saren's in the tower why doesn't he just open the relay directly instead of doing the whole thing with opening the arms and closing them once Sovereign's in. Of course, you could make the case that the whole keeper plot is dumb anyway because why would the Reapers, hyperintelligent machines then rely on weak, inferior, designed organics to operate the most crucial piece of their technology. They should've set it up to beam teh signal directly, or better yet, not bother with a signal at all, and have some sort of presence on the Citadel already that just opens it when it's time. You know... kind of like they ended up having in ME3... But then you wouldn't have a game, you'd have a short sentence along the lines of: "Once there were a whole bunch of aliens living peacefully on this space station, until one day giant robot cuttlefish popped out of nowhere and killed them all. The End." It's the same with why the relay network isn't immediately shut down when the Reapers get here in ME3. So yeah, there's been stupid things and plot progression because idiot ball since the start. Just at different points than you think. The idiocy was written to allow plot but if you accept the initial idiocy the rest of it mostly works. Not much of an endorsement but meh. It's not "horrid" writing... but it's not writing that's heads and heals above ME3's writing either... which is my point. The writing is not all that much better or worse in any of the games. Even though the nature of the major flaws changes... all three games have flaws in the writing... and good parts as well. One of the good parts of ME3 was that it took decisions made in ME1 that had no impact on the end game within ME1 and made those decisiolns very relevant to the plot line of ME3. The most profound example is the shooting of Wrex... which was completely irrelevant in ME1 (i.e. the game could end exactly the same way - line for line - regardless of whether Wrex was alive or dead). However, in ME3, whether Wrex was alive or dead is exactly what the future of the Krogan if cured of the genophage relied on. Furthermore, it tied directly into the concerns expressed by Mordin in ME2 about the scenarios that predicted a "fractured" vs. "united" krogan government. I have already said that the ending of ME3 faltered... so I will not go into that further again. I've also explained why I feel the autodialogue is actually also present in ME1. There's just a "pacifier" for the kiddies who want to think they're being allowed a choice when they're not really getting any choice at all. The player can click on different paraphrases... but the dialogue delivered regardless is exactly the same. I've also given examples of loads of "nonsense" dialogues in ME1 - Ashley saying her eyeballs dried out on Therum or Kaidan saying the tiles reminded him of a bathroom floor. Sure, nonsense lines do exist in ME3... but there are quite a number of them in ME1 as well. In ME1, there were also several dialogues where different "investigate" lines repeated information found in other "investigate" lines. Investigating things with Mira and Dr. Cohen is one example of that sort of repetitiveness... or questioning the VI about the nature of the Thorian. Also, ME1 offered a very limited number of conversations with your squad mates on the ship. Most of the time, Garrus would be thanking you, Tali would just ask if you needed something, Kaidan would tell you there would be time for personal debriefings later, and Wrex would just say Shepard. Overall, ME3 squad mate comments were richer... even changing if you did mission in different orders or took different squad mates with you. For example, if you had Ashley aboard and reordered things to take Tali on the Turian bomb and platoon missions, you could overhead a wonderful conversation between them on the ship. ME1 had no moments like that. The problem is, you can let the initial idiocy go to just enjoy a story, but when they continue with the same sort of dumb writing it gets more and more glaring. Like I said above, ME only works because they built in a really stupid way for the Reapers to operate- using the keepers instead of a direct connection to the Citadel, or actually having the vanguard/monitor on the Citadel the whole time. They also gave Saren an initial idiot ball- attacking Eden Prime as opposed to just quietly going in and taking the beacon. That's where subterfuge would've done wonders over charging in guns blazing. If Saren had just shown up in a nondescript transport with an asari matriach and some commandos and told them he was taking the beacon for the Council, no would've batted an eye. Nihlus and the Normandy crew would've shown up, gone wtf?, Nihlus would've called it in, the Council would've called Saren asking why he got the beacon, Saren could've made up some bullshit and told them he was en route, then disappeared with it, maybe even stage an accident or geth attack and boom- zero suspicion, no Shepard on his tail, no one would've been the wiser. But then again, we wouldn't have a story. It's not the best way to write, asking the audience to accept illogical things, but if you do it, and the rest of the story works and makes sense you sort of get away with it. The problem is in the sequels there's more stupidity that's on the same level. "Ah yes Reapers", the Collectors and the TermiReaper, the implausibility of Cerberus, Shepard's herpaderp jail time and when the Reapers finally get here, the focus on Earth, the relays still being operational, the deus ex machina right under our noses as well as a literal deus ex machina for the Reapers again literally under our noses. That last is the worst of the bunch because not only is it monumentally stupid, it compounds the stupidity of the initial dumb thing we had to accept to kick the series off in the first place. So that's why the flaws in the later games are more glaring and more often pointed out. It's not fundamentally worse stupidity, it's just stupidity compounded. As for squadmates, replaying ME1 now and conversations with them don't seem to be markedly different from later games. I can tell when they only have stock phrases and repeat information vs after you've just done a major story mission and you can now progress to the next stage with them in all games. And please Garrus in ME1 vs ME2? In ME1 you can mentor and shape him into essentially a version of you (which the later games mostly ran with) vs ME2 and its infamous calibrations. ME1 Garrus also gives us the proto loyalty mission with going after Dr. Saleon. As far as I can tell it doesn't impact any variables practically but you could tell they used that and ran with it in the sequels. Tali and Liara did have most of their initial conversations be a guided tour of their species, but it was the first game and thus the first opportunity to learn that stuff. How many other quarians or even asari do you meaningfully interact with in ME1? Even in the later games we learn nothing new about the asari's culture or society until Samara. And speaking of, Samara in ME2 and Miranda serve the same purpose initially, exposition on justicars and Cerberus respectively. As for ME3, while squadmates conversing with each other was a nice touch, I'm not sure the cost of less fleshed out conversations with the player was worth it. Everyone became click to talk unless they had a new major thing to talk about or at best you'd get a "walk by" convo where a click to talk would turn in to a few autoreplies from Shepard as well. I hesitate to call it an improvement.
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