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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 16, 2016 6:36:57 GMT
... Also, if Saren is traveling around the galaxy inside Sovereign... then Sovereign is at Ilos but obviously doesn't arrive at the Citadel through the Conduit... taking the long way around through the regular relay network anyways... yet, it's Saren's attack on the Citadel that causes the Citadel arms and the relay network to be closed... So, shouldn't Sovereign be trapped outside of the Citadel system the same way Joker was before Shepard opened the relays? The Reapers are able to travel from dark space to Council space in the span of 6 months without mass relays. Speeds like that are unknown to any Council race. I'm conjecturing that Sovereign could make the journey from Ilos to the Citadel quickly. Also, conceivably, Sovereign could manipulate the relays to take it to a destination of choice rather than something pre-programmed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 13:58:20 GMT
... Also, if Saren is traveling around the galaxy inside Sovereign... then Sovereign is at Ilos but obviously doesn't arrive at the Citadel through the Conduit... taking the long way around through the regular relay network anyways... yet, it's Saren's attack on the Citadel that causes the Citadel arms and the relay network to be closed... So, shouldn't Sovereign be trapped outside of the Citadel system the same way Joker was before Shepard opened the relays? The Reapers are able to travel from dark space to Council space in the span of 6 months without mass relays. Speeds like that are unknown to any Council race. I'm conjecturing that Sovereign could make the journey from Ilos to the Citadel quickly. Also, conceivably, Sovereign could manipulate the relays to take it to a destination of choice rather than something pre-programmed. Then, why didn't Saren just blow up the Conduit to keep Shepard from following and then hop aboard Sovereign and beeline for the Citadel. Send a portion of his geth forces to create a distraction to draw the fleets and Destiny Ascension away from the Citadel. Have another force of asari commandos infiltrate the plaza, walk calmly up to the Council chambers before striking. That way, Sovereign doesn't have face much resistance at all because the Citadel defenders are occupied with Saren's geth elsewhere, the Council dies because they can't get aboard the Destiny Ascension, the arms stay open long enough to Sovereign to just waltz right in there, etc. The added benefit is Shepard is trapped on Ilos since the Normandy can't get back to the Citadel as fast as Sovereign (and apparently the geth fighters who accompanying Sovereign in that last battle) can go. It's AS effective as using the Conduit (really the same battle either way)... because the Conduit only leads to the public area in front of the tower... and that's my point.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 16, 2016 15:22:32 GMT
... Also, if Saren is traveling around the galaxy inside Sovereign... then Sovereign is at Ilos but obviously doesn't arrive at the Citadel through the Conduit... taking the long way around through the regular relay network anyways... yet, it's Saren's attack on the Citadel that causes the Citadel arms and the relay network to be closed... So, shouldn't Sovereign be trapped outside of the Citadel system the same way Joker was before Shepard opened the relays? The Reapers are able to travel from dark space to Council space in the span of 6 months without mass relays. Speeds like that are unknown to any Council race. I'm conjecturing that Sovereign could make the journey from Ilos to the Citadel quickly. Also, conceivably, Sovereign could manipulate the relays to take it to a destination of choice rather than something pre-programmed. Nah unless Relay is specially designed like Alpha or Omega. They can only connect from Primary to Primary or Secondary to Primary/Secondary
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dmc1001
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 17, 2016 4:47:03 GMT
It's AS effective as using the Conduit (really the same battle either way)... because the Conduit only leads to the public area in front of the tower... and that's my point. Mainly, I'm not convinced Saren knew exactly where on the Citadel the Conduit would lead him to. You're acting as if he knew that mini relay was something more than a statue. We don't actually know that he did. If he's looking to be brought to a secret control room or something then he wouldn't assume it would lead him to an open space.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 17, 2016 4:48:22 GMT
The Reapers are able to travel from dark space to Council space in the span of 6 months without mass relays. Speeds like that are unknown to any Council race. I'm conjecturing that Sovereign could make the journey from Ilos to the Citadel quickly. Also, conceivably, Sovereign could manipulate the relays to take it to a destination of choice rather than something pre-programmed. Nah unless Relay is specially designed like Alpha or Omega. They can only connect from Primary to Primary or Secondary to Primary/Secondary Right, that makes sense. Otherwise, the Reapers would have appeared wherever they wanted whenever they wanted. They went through more than one relay in ME3 to get to Earth.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2016 5:03:08 GMT
It's AS effective as using the Conduit (really the same battle either way)... because the Conduit only leads to the public area in front of the tower... and that's my point. Mainly, I'm not convinced Saren knew exactly where on the Citadel the Conduit would lead him to. You're acting as if he knew that mini relay was something more than a statue. We don't actually know that he did. If he's looking to be brought to a secret control room or something then he wouldn't assume it would lead him to an open space. No, I'm "not behaving like" anything... I'm saying that the writers would have better closed that loophole in their plot IF they had just written it such that the mini-relay was the device that got Saren into a previously inaccessible area of the Citadel. The writers knew "all along" what they were writing about and could have chosen not to write the story in such a needlessly circular manner. I did say several posts ago that I do use this sort of head canon type of reasoning to get around this bit of bad writing. They could have used their plot device (i.e. the mini relay) in a much more effective way. Another example of bad writing in ME1 is the Virmire decision (discussion is now going on in another thread). They wrote the decision such that the player is encouraged to send Ashley with the Salarians and Kaidan with the bomb. Ashley outright tells Kaidan "The Commander will need you to arm the nuke." However, the Commander really has two far more qualified candidates for arming that nuke already on the ship. The nuke is a jerry-rigged device from a Salarian ship's drive. The squad mate with the most experience with alien ship drives is Tali... and then there is even Engineer Adams who is also far more familiar with ship's drives than Kaidan. Then, of course, really shouldn't it be a Salarian arming their own jerry-rigged bomb? The decision is a major plot point... yet the situation that sets it up is open to logical questioning from the players... just as the battle mini-relay is open to logical questioning from the players. Good writing would take better care to set up those major plot points is a more solid fashion and not leave them open to such questioning... but ME1 writing is not THAT good. It's pretty much on par with ME3. For the Virmire decision, the situation could have been written such that Shepard has to send both Kaidan and Ashley with separate Salarian teams to coordinate comms between the two Salarian teams and Shepard's team. Both Salarian teams could get overwhelmed and Shepard has to simply choose which team to assist... with the team he/she doesn't assist simply getting wiped out... then we wouldn't keep having the debate over who, between Ashley and Kaidan, is better qualified to arm a bomb.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 17, 2016 5:53:37 GMT
Nah unless Relay is specially designed like Alpha or Omega. They can only connect from Primary to Primary or Secondary to Primary/Secondary Right, that makes sense. Otherwise, the Reapers would have appeared wherever they wanted whenever they wanted. They went through more than one relay in ME3 to get to Earth. Plus even the Batarians figured out the Alpha Relay. Giving all Relays that kind of power would be a bit dangerous for them as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 14:24:01 GMT
I was going through some ME2 videos on Youtube and rediscovered how, I think despite how ME3 generally had more of a real plot, ME2 had the best dialogue and writing (not plotting but prose and dialogue) in the series. It felt natural and it felt like it was worthwhile. By ME3 they started bloating their script with too many platitudes and cliches like "Get to cover!" or "It's now or never" or just other filler lines that don't need to be there but they were because BioWare's writers don't know what to write half the time. (snip) I know this clip is infamous for establishing the whole retcon of ME1 with the galaxy denying the existence of the Reapers, but still, they take their time with the dialogue. They even try to defend it by having Shepard argue back and forth with the council and the counterarguments are pretty solid. there's not a predominant sense of vagueness in the script as if they're trying to make it sound as if they're covering for not knowing what to write. I want to expound a bit on some of the differences I see in the writing of ME1 vs. ME3 that I think really do contribute to why some people genuinely prefer ME1 to ME3. I don't see it being a case of a writers not knowing what to write though, but more do to a change in the style of how the dialogue is presented in the two games. ME1 was the introductory game and L'Etoile's writing includes a lot of long and detailed info dumps about numerous topics. These long info dumps were presented to the player within dialogue wheels that were multi-tiered and had usually at least 3 "investigate" options (with further options inside them) and the player was required to "click" on these options to elicit the information out of the NPC. In ME3, the dialogue wheels are not generally as multi-tiered and, when an NPC is just providing background information, the conversation continues with Shepard generally without any ability to interrupt it (i.e. autodialogue). ME1 starts with a quick dialogue wheel (with Joker), but follows soon after with two very long multi-tiered dialogue wheels (with Pressly and Chakwas/Jenkins) that really are only about gathering background information about the story. ME3, by comparison, handles all of that with a long automatic conversation between Shepard and Anderson, interrupted only briefly by 2 "quick-choice" dialogue wheels. Many players, as a result, doesn't connect as strongly with Shepard in the beginning of ME3 as he/she does with Shepard in ME1. Furthermore, ME3 doesn't go into the "technobabble" info dumps to the same degree as ME1 because a lot of that information was already introduced in ME1 and the entries simply appear in the codex for the player read at their leisure. Again, this has the side-effect of "disconnecting" the player a bit from Shepard in ME3. For the record, my personal preference is the latter (ME3) method, since I don't like having to click and click and click when no actual decision is being made and the selections will not make any difference in Shepard's characterization in the game or in the course of events during the game. However, having the interactive clicking does draw the player more easily into feeling invested in Shepard at the beginning of the game. I do, however, think ME3 does reflect L'Etoile's absence with the lack of the long, convoluted, multi-tiered dialogue wheels. ME2's prologue had a few and shorter dialogue wheels than ME1, but those wheels were a little longer than the ones in ME3's prologue. It is the game that seemed to have the best "balance" in this regard and, hopefully, the dialogue wheels in ME:A will see a return of some multi-tiering... although I hope they don't go back to the degree of it they had in ME1.
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