Ivory Samoan
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Post by Ivory Samoan on Nov 20, 2016 11:29:58 GMT
MGS3 Snake Eater for me is still best in the franchise overall. Big Boss is by far my favorite videogame character ever and as such you can see how disappointed I was with how TPP handled that story. I think you might have kicked off a MGS->MGS2->MGS3 playthrough....such an amazing series, so trippy in parts and always fun to play SNAAAAAAAAAKE!!!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 20, 2016 11:30:13 GMT
Spoilered my response to the spoilered response IT Megathread veteran here ( 4000+ posts) I've probably discussed or observed every single question relating to IT there was, so I'll try to answer yours Why are you locked into destroy with low EMS? This might be a long answer. First, "EMS" in the Indoctrination Interpretation translates, in practice, to Effective Mental Strength, as opposed to Military. They're tied together because they represent (in a flawed way since they're just numbers) Shepard's confidence. The more War Assets, the more resolve. But that's not all it means. The premise behind IT is that the Reapers want to indoctrinate Shepard, but not just turn them into a husk. They want a long-term agent, like TIM or Saren (who happen to represent the other ending options). To do that, they need to use slow, patient indoctrination. This is consistent with such oddities as Anderson dying removing 1000 EMS. This comes with a caveat: That Shepard would be worth the effort. If they do a terrible job at uniting the galaxy, maybe they weren't that special after all (low-EMS). If they manage to get a lot of support on the other hand... (high-EMS). So what does that mean? The more Shepard proves themselves, the more options open up as vehicles for indoctrination. To what end? Depends on the sub-theory. The most obvious reason would be to use such a pivotal figure to sow as much well-placed chaos as possible. After all, the Protheans' (and presumably most others') order of battle was fractured because of separatists who wanted to control the Reapers (and probably some like Saren who willingly let themselves be "upgraded" o promote synthesis). At worst, they'd simply eliminate Shepard from the equation. The "slow, patient indoctrination" part is key to the theory, because while the Reapers can quickly enthrall someone, they lose any uniqueness in the process. The reason Reaper Indoctrination is insidious isn't because it makes you do what the Reapers want, it's because it makes you want to - often while you still think you're in control. That's why it's More Than Mind Control. The reason it would work in the endgame is because ultimately, Shepard chooses how to move forward. Stick to your guns (literally), or try a too-good-to-be-true strategy? This sort of thing probably happened to TIM and Saren at some point, whether they remember it or not. Anyway, another idea floating around was that they want Shepard specifically to complete this harvest's new Reaper. This goes with Reapers making one Sovereign-class Reaper per cycle out of the most threatening species and making the rest into Destroyer-class ships. So the idea is that each cycle, the Reapers also select an influential individual to serve as a "guiding intelligence" for that Reaper (à la Control ending). Last time, they wanted Javik, the Avatar of Vengeance, but he evaded them, and that's the reason there was never a Prothean Reaper. This time it's Shepard, spearhead of the resistance, Avatar of Victory. So that would fit with Shep not being valuable enough to use long-term indoctrination on in low-EMS scenarios. All of the above ties in with the Breath Scene, not synthesis, requiring the most EMS to achieve (and therefore being the best ending by all accounts ) The last thing to remember is that the Reapers aren't letting Shepard destroy them. That option has to be there, because it's been Shepard's objective since the beginning, and this is in Shepard's head. All they can do is add alternatives. And since it's in Shep's head, they're not letting you destroy them in that sense either. Anyway, there are a lot of interpretations even under the IT umbrella. That's one. Hope it helps! I, too, hoped beyond hope that they'd have a post-ending DLC where Shepard wakes up and you actually finish the fight. Hell, maybe that was even the plan originally, but the ending backlash forced out the EC and made the literal endings canon. Damage control. Imagine that! The fans unwittingly ruining their own ending because they cared too much. That's some serious irony. Now, I'm not saying that's what happened. But it's a thought. I agree the EC made things worse in most cases. That is the most convoluted grasping at straws I have ever heard. That's the fascinating thing about theories though, you can make anything fit them. It's fun if not taken too seriously. So thanks for sharing! I participated a bit in the discussion right after it spread, but never got to the part about low EMS. That's... certainly one way of explaining it. *g* Can't really say it makes much sense to me. Why the reapers would want an agent at this point where the extinction has already begun. They had Saren for the blitz attack and TIM to make things difficult for Shepard. And the reapers were winning. No need to have another disruptive force. All they really ever needed was ONE person to grant the reapers access. That person was Saren. And it would have worked if it wasn't for Shepard and her crew. So, are you saying that for this theory to work, Shepard must awake indoctrinated?? And with low EMS Shepard just dies and... what? The reapers are still alive? Because it's all in Shepard's head, right? So the crucible never fires. HOW would the IT then be a good thing? How would Shepard beat the reapers then in the destroy ending after waking up? I'm confused... I thought the whole point of the IT was that the reapers want to manipulate Shepard into NOT waking up? Into choosing one of the other choices and die thinking everyone got saved. By resisting the temptation of wanting to save everyone by all means (green and blue), choosing the sacrifice instead, Shepard breaks the spell. Which is why the low EMS situation still breaks IT imo. It's true that the ending you have to work for the most is not synthesis but the breathing scene. If you take the ending literally then it doesn't all add up perfectly either. If synthesis is so cool, then why is high EMS destroy the most rewarding? Indeed. My guess is that yes, the ending are to be taken literally. That each choice is valid and a good outcome. But that Destroy is the one Bioware sees as the right one. The only one where you don't completely force something on everyone. The games were all about freedom and individuality after all. And there is freedom in choosing death over making everyone the same. Legion agreed. EDI gave Shep her blessing too. Sacrificing them is the right thing to do. They want it that way. And it's also the scenario where Shepard's survival is the least unlikely. (It's literally impossible for Shepard the human being to survive Control.) They probably put less thought into it than we did. They wanted to add a reward for those who did "everything right". So they slapped the breathing scene on Destroy... Low EMS only makes 100% sense to me if everything is real and the Catalyst does not lie. It's a stupid computer program that allows its own destruction because the system is now broken and awaiting instructions what to do next. It tells you exactly what will happen. And from its point of view Destroy is a bad choice because it doesn't solve the problem. But since its really just a toaster, it will accept whatever Shepard chooses. Bioware punishes the player here for playing a ruthless asshole not just because the funky green happy pill option is not available but because Earth gets destroyed. THIS is the reason why low EMS is so bad. You messed up. ANY other ending would be better than this. Even synthesis and control if taken literally. But you have NO choice here. I guess you could reason that Shepard is told everyone on Earth will die so that s/he fires at the Starbrat out of frustration, thus letting the reapers continue. But then you learn the next cycle beat the reapers. So the reapers lose either way. And the refuse ending wasn't even an option in the original version, so... The more you think about IT, the less it makes sense. Which is why I didn't and just ignored the low EMS mess. It is cool when you can make yourself believe Shepard wakes up and the real victory happens after that. No space magic crucible. OR when you say pushing the button was real and Shepard was just being manipulated into not pushing the red one. So the space magic is real, the crucible fires, but the outcome of green and blue would not have been victory but defeat. Like taking a poison pill. Either is cool. Now hush on the low EMS scenario. That never happened... What I don't see isn't there. In any case, my Shepard is alive! And that alone is a cool thing. And despite everything, the trilogy will remain my favorite game forever. I'm still as madly in love as I was after ME1. And nothing can take that from me. Even if Andromeda turns out to be a terrible game, I'll still have the trilogy. *goes to pray in front of the Shepard shrine*
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 20, 2016 11:43:31 GMT
Eh, I wouldn't have minded if their real plan was IT, but I seriously doubt they considered it seriously. Two of the three endings are simply the rapresentation to the two different stances in the two main human factions in the trilogy (Alliance destroy, Cerberus control). Synthesis-Space Magic ftw was already shown in ME3 as a solution for another synthetic-organic conflict, between geth and quarians. Ironically, the three ending choices were rapresented since ME2 by the quarian admirals , Gerrel (Destroy), Xen (Control) and Koris (Synthesis).
I never expected EC to fix the problems behind the concept of the Starbrat, so I was fine with what they did. And ParaControl's speech is pretty cool.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 12:37:35 GMT
There's a difference, IMO, between criticizing something that's already been released (fair) and trashing something before it's released without knowing what it's actually even going to be like. Here (i.e. in the ME:A threads of this website), a lot of the latter seems to go on and on and on; and it does make it difficult to try to even discuss the possibilities of this game "unemotionally." Absolutely. However, the same people who cocked up ME3's ending are in charge of ME:A and have not acknowledged in any way that they may have made a mistake. That immediately raises legitimate concerns for many of us about the quality of ME:A's story. I'm not a 'whinger' or a 'cry-baby' and genuinely want ME:A to be great (I'll be pre-ordering). However, I'm also perfectly happy to complain about various failings of the ME series where I think they relate to ME:A, not because I want ME:A to fail but because I want it to succeed. Back to the OP: not a direct connection but not to mention Shepard at all would be bizarre considering s/he's a hero of galactic stature if the arks leave after ME2. I have heard Mac in interviews indicate clearly that they feel they have learned a lot from their past efforts. IMO, that is basically an admission of past mistakes. Writing the EC was an admission of sorts... so I disagree with the assessment that they "have not acknowledged in any way that they may have made a mistake." They just haven't acknowledged it in THE way you are apparently still demanding. As I said... criticizing what's been done in the past is one thing and OK. Pre-criticizing what might be in ME:A without really knowing what is in ME:A is quite another, IMHO; and makes no real sense. It seems Mac can't hint at anything in the game without the people here running it out to the worst possible outcome they can imagine (just an observation - shrug). Back OT - Mentioning Shepard, even if Alec knows Shepard extremely well, can be done in an innocuous way. The younger Ryder(s) do not have to be allowed to question Alec at length about details about Shepard nor does the mention have to include any assessment of what Shepard was doing regarding the Reapers. It can be a worded as a means of introducing some specifics about Shepard into the game by the player (by allowing for dialogue choices if (as rumored) there is a point in the game where the player is controlling Alec. I wouldn't mind Alec having a "past" that includes knowing Shepard... but I'll wait to see if or how Bioware decides to incorporate it after the game is released before criticizing them on it.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2016 12:44:48 GMT
...well, except for ONE thing. With low EMS the only option you get is Destroy, right?
Wrong. If ems is below 1750, there is only one option for Shepard to choose. Control or destroy. If the collector base was saved, control is the only option. If the base is destroyed, destroy is the only option. If playing a default ME3 playthrough, the game assumes the base was destroyed.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2016 12:46:42 GMT
A bit off topic, but was there any proof that they didn't made the protheans into a reaper? All I remember is that EDI speculated that they couldn't, because protheans weird DNA. Leviathan says every cycle ends in the birth of a reaper.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 20, 2016 12:53:13 GMT
...well, except for ONE thing. With low EMS the only option you get is Destroy, right?
Wrong. If ems is below 1750, there is only one option for Shepard to choose. Control or destroy. If the collector base was saved, control is the only option. If the base is destroyed, destroy is the only option. If playing a default ME3 playthrough, the game assumes the base was destroyed. Ah, I didn't know that. I only ever saw the Destroy-only scenario. That's interesting. I love these little details in Bioware games. Thanks for the input!
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2016 12:55:13 GMT
Ryder: Hey dad? Do you remember watching the vid showing Commander Shepard becoming the first human spectre? dad: Yeah. What about it? Ryder: Could that of been you? dad: Hmmm. Never gave it much thought. Its possible if I never joined the Andromeda Initiative project. Ryder: Are you jealous of Shepard? dad: What? No. Why are you mentioning this? Ryder: Its just something that popped in my head.
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Post by hipi07 on Nov 20, 2016 13:25:05 GMT
MGS3 Snake Eater for me is still best in the franchise overall. Big Boss is by far my favorite videogame character ever and as such you can see how disappointed I was with how TPP handled that story. I think you might have kicked off a MGS->MGS2->MGS3 playthrough....such an amazing series, so trippy in parts and always fun to play SNAAAAAAAAAKE!!! MGS2's gameplay is near perfection. I have a confession... I've never actually played MGS1. Being the PS Exclusive it is I never had the chance and only played MGS4 (which was the first one I played) because my uncle had it on PS3.
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Post by javeart on Nov 20, 2016 13:41:53 GMT
Eh, I wouldn't have minded if their real plan was IT, but I seriously doubt they considered it seriously. Two of the three endings are simply the rapresentation to the two different stances in the two main human factions in the trilogy (Alliance destroy, Cerberus control). Synthesis-Space Magic ftw was already shown in ME3 as a solution for another synthetic-organic conflict, between geth and quarians. Ironically, the three ending choices were rapresented since ME2 by the quarian admirals , Gerrel (Destroy), Xen (Control) and Koris (Synthesis). I never expected EC to fix the problems behind the concept of the Starbrat, so I was fine with what they did. And ParaControl's speech is pretty cool. A little OT once last time, spoiler tags again, just in case You see, I wouldn't have minded it if representing the two factions and the correlated two possible attitudes toward the reaper problem would have been the real intention of M3. I mean, I'd because it'd probably end up breaking the MW anyway, and that's what bothers me the most of it all xD But still, if at least the choice woudl have been given earlier in the game, so that you'd have picked between working with TIM or with the Alliance (instead of forcing you to confront indoctrinated TIM all the time), and you get to do something to actually achive one goal or another instead of just choosing to press one button or another, I might have hated it a litlles less I mean, at least throughout all ME2 you could choose to support Cerberus goals, unlike wht happens with the organic-synthetics dilemma, that comes out of nowhere (yes, I know there's people that thinks it is a core theme of the ME series, I just disagree) And, ok, I'm letting it go now
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 20, 2016 13:47:33 GMT
Eh, I wouldn't have minded if their real plan was IT, but I seriously doubt they considered it seriously. Two of the three endings are simply the rapresentation to the two different stances in the two main human factions in the trilogy (Alliance destroy, Cerberus control). Synthesis-Space Magic ftw was already shown in ME3 as a solution for another synthetic-organic conflict, between geth and quarians. Ironically, the three ending choices were rapresented since ME2 by the quarian admirals , Gerrel (Destroy), Xen (Control) and Koris (Synthesis). I never expected EC to fix the problems behind the concept of the Starbrat, so I was fine with what they did. And ParaControl's speech is pretty cool. A little OT once last time, spoiler tags again, just in case You see, I wouldn't have minded it if representing the two factions and the correlated two possible attitudes toward the reaper problem would have been the real intention of M3. I mean, I'd because it'd probably end up breaking the MW anyway, and that's what bothers me the most of it all xD But still, if at least the choice woudl have been given earlier in the game, so that you'd have picked between working with TIM or with the Alliance (instead of forcing you to confront indoctrinated TIM all the time), and you get to do something to actually achive one goal or another instead of just choosing to press one button or another, I might have hated it a litlles less I mean, at least throughout all ME2 you could choose to support Cerberus goals, unlike wht happens with the organic-synthetics dilemma, that comes out of nowhere (yes, I know there's people that thinks it is a core theme of the ME series, I just disagree) And, ok, I'm letting it go now I completely agree. I wanted in ME3 to have the choice of supporting either the Alliance or Cerberus, and have a more choices on developing Shepard on either side of the value. Not because I support Cerberus, but because it'd have been consistent with the previous games.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2016 14:01:09 GMT
Wrong. If ems is below 1750, there is only one option for Shepard to choose. Control or destroy. If the collector base was saved, control is the only option. If the base is destroyed, destroy is the only option. If playing a default ME3 playthrough, the game assumes the base was destroyed. Ah, I didn't know that. I only ever saw the Destroy-only scenario. That's interesting. I love these little details in Bioware games. Thanks for the input! If interested, here's a post about ems when heading to Earth.
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Ivory Samoan
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Raising Hell with the Flavor XX
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Post by Ivory Samoan on Nov 20, 2016 14:43:04 GMT
I think you might have kicked off a MGS->MGS2->MGS3 playthrough....such an amazing series, so trippy in parts and always fun to play SNAAAAAAAAAKE!!! MGS2's gameplay is near perfection. I have a confession... I've never actually played MGS1. Being the PS Exclusive it is I never had the chance and only played MGS4 (which was the first one I played) because my uncle had it on PS3. You owe it to yourself to hunt out a PS3 or PS4 and grab the emulated version on PSN: it's easily as good as MGS3, you'll freak out with happiness I guarantee!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 15:00:44 GMT
I'd rather Shepard does not become another Revan.
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