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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 18, 2016 17:39:56 GMT
Disappointing if they follow DAI template. Imo, far better if each planet feel like a damn good episode from Star Trek...detect anomaly, go in, discover some cool story about some past civilization, first contact, etc. Hell, they've already got their source material written for them and no one would give a damn. Exploration, but only within scope of the mission. For main story focus on crew end up involved in more "local" affairs like Genophage and Quarian/Geth conflicts, instead of another generic chase after villains. I tend to agree with this. I don't really mind the DA:I comparison too much. As long as they pick the right parts of DA:I as inspiration, it could work very well. DA:I was not really bad in terms of the concept, it just had a few very specific issues in its execution that souredeven the good parts of the experience. But in general, big areas to explore with smaller quests and things to discover might lend itself way better to the Mass Effect world than it does to the Dragon Age one. Also, I think the more long range real time shooter combat might work better then the tactical party based system in this environment (but that might just be me, as I like this style of combat much better anyway). BUT: I completely agree with the sentiment that the planets should feel like episodes that we visit, do our thing there and then move on. Given the vastness of space, going back and forth between planets only makes sense in a well developed region with established hubs like the council space in the milky way. If they do want to give us the feeling of exploring and pushing forward into a new frontier (like they did in ME1 to large degree), then they should keep backtracking to a minimum IMO. Therefore, I don't like the diea of those "Superbosses" that you might have to come back to. What could be the point of going back for them in terms of the story (not just gameplay)? If I am a pathfinder and say, I find a planet that has some resources or an interesting alien temple or something but I can't defeat the monster that guards this point of interest, wouldn't it make much more sense for Ryder to just move on with the Tempest but send a report to the larger force at your back to deal with it? S/he is supposed to be some sort of scout after all, not the main force. Another thing I am a bit concerned about is the fact that the Nomad has no weapons. While driving is fun, having some real vehicular combat could add a lot of diversity to that sort of gameplay, especially if we end up spending a lot of time in the car. I'm a bit afraid it'll end up a bit like the horses in DA:I (and I hated those) or at best like the driving in the Mad Max game, which was ok but certainly wasn't something that kept me excited for long. Anyway, we'll see how that turns out. There is a lot of good ideas in the Andromeda concept I feel but there are a few aspects to what's been revealed so far that could still make or break the entire thing.
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Post by 10k on Nov 18, 2016 18:00:18 GMT
I dont get the relation with the Nomad. Inquisition didn't lack enemies. Also, they said it's similar to the switch from DA2 to DAI in terms of linear leves to bigger areas, not necessarily about the areas being empty. No weapons on Nomad could possibly be because there will be nothing hostile in the areas we travel through, that's the relation. Inquisition areas felt empty, sure it had groups of random enemies here and there. But overall the world felt empty, that's the point. Yeah I know what they meant by "switch between DA2 and Inquisition in terms of linear levels to bigger areas" but why is that good when Inquisition felt empty and dead? I know it's not about areas being empty. They want bigger areas like they did with inquisition, but as I said they'll probably feel as empty and dead as Inquisition. Vast areas of basically nothingness, I wouldn't be surprised.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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PSN: rodelbjerg
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Post by Nihilus on Nov 18, 2016 18:32:34 GMT
I dont get the relation with the Nomad. Inquisition didn't lack enemies. Also, they said it's similar to the switch from DA2 to DAI in terms of linear leves to bigger areas, not necessarily about the areas being empty. No weapons on Nomad could possibly be because there will be nothing hostile in the areas we travel through, that's the relation. Inquisition areas felt empty, sure it had groups of random enemies here and there. But overall the world felt empty, that's the point. Yeah I know what they meant by "switch between DA2 and Inquisition in terms of linear levels to bigger areas" but why is that good when Inquisition felt empty and dead? I know it's not about areas being empty. They want bigger areas like they did with inquisition, but as I said they'll probably feel as empty and dead as Inquisition. Vast areas of basically nothingness, I wouldn't be surprised. Empty and dead is more fitting here though. Empty barren planets is not an uncommon thing out there, along with the occasional explored and civilized planets. The trick is for bioware to maintain this and still manage to make it interesting and exciting. Unlike DAI, which I agree was very empty and dead, and it felt like a totally unnecessary thing to implement in that franchise. The mass effect franchise though, started with this in its first installment. And I feel there is great potential in exploring this, it just goes hand in hand with the setting, being out there in a strange and unfamiliar place.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 18, 2016 18:40:25 GMT
Vast areas of basically nothingness, I wouldn't be surprised. Well, as I said above, I'd be all for the Nomad having weapons (at least they said we'd be able to ram enemies or something like that, so it's not like there will be absolutely no possible way to "interact" with enemies while driving the vehicle). On the empty levels thing, though, I think this might work a bit better for ME:A than it did with DA:I. At least ME:A takes place in space (at least in part) on uncharted worlds or moons and such. I'd say it does make some sense if we had areas where we get to drive through pretty vast desolate areas (like in ME1). I could imagine that this feels more natural in an ME game, than it did in a DA game. But that said, I do agree that this should not be used as an excuse for lazy level design and I do hope that vast empty areas - if they exist - are used very carefully and specifically to make the point that during space exploration, one just will feel small and alone within the vastness of the universe sometimes.
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 18, 2016 18:41:33 GMT
I dont get the relation with the Nomad. Inquisition didn't lack enemies. Also, they said it's similar to the switch from DA2 to DAI in terms of linear leves to bigger areas, not necessarily about the areas being empty. No weapons on Nomad could possibly be because there will be nothing hostile in the areas we travel through, that's the relation. Inquisition areas felt empty, sure it had groups of random enemies here and there. But overall the world felt empty, that's the point. Yeah I know what they meant by "switch between DA2 and Inquisition in terms of linear levels to bigger areas" but why is that good when Inquisition felt empty and dead? I know it's not about areas being empty. They want bigger areas like they did with inquisition, but as I said they'll probably feel as empty and dead as Inquisition. Vast areas of basically nothingness, I wouldn't be surprised. It depends on how varied the planets will be. I don't think that all have to be full of quest or have the same aumont of content. Some could be more about exploration, but there should be some with a lot more of quantity content then compared to the areas in DAI.
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Agent 46
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Nov 18, 2016 18:53:26 GMT
Oh, great. Just great. Now I'm envisioning driving the Nomad towards some map marker so I can unlock establish a new base camp as an instant pit stop.
I hope this won't be too much about collecting things again. The less MEA's exploration will be like DAI's, the better.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 18, 2016 19:09:17 GMT
Oh, great. Just great. Now I'm envisioning driving the Nomad towards some map marker so I can unlock establish a new base camp as an instant pit stop. I hope this won't be too much about collecting things again. The less MEA's exploration will be like DAI's, the better. I've been envisioning this ever since that 2014 survey leak, and since we basically started to confirme every bit of that information with the official footage. I've been saying it for a while now and I'm sure it's ME Inquisition moreso than it is ME1 2.0, and I have very muted expectations for it, but to be frank I've felt that especially since I saw the PS4pro footage. It's going to be fun, and if they manage the story right it could be excellent even, but I doubt it considering Mac said they "started with characters" and not in the "let's find out a plot from these characters" way, because much like Mike Laidlaw he seemed to brush story aside "yeah, yeah, there's the storytelling BioWare is known for... BUT THERE'S ALSO...!"
Sounds like they're excusing themselves, and it doesn't bode well because I don't want ME:A to be more a framework than an interactive story. At best it could feel like a season of a TV-show I guess, but even the Loyalty quests are said to be "shorter than the critical path levels" in the article and Mac confirms they don't impact the ending, so really, it sounds like the companion "inner circle" quests from DA:I which were essentially the same as the ME1 "loyalty missions". I really feel they're abusing the term considering ME2's loyalty quests were every bit as long and substantial as the main recruitment missions which were basically just critical path missions. I'm not sure I really care for having a bunch of "likeable, endearing(TM)" characters I need to get to know and they each have their own tangent-stories to the main narrative, which isn't even subplots, and that's all good and well written but nothign contributes to the sense of whole in the narrative. I just want a BioWare story that can top KOTOR in terms of building up all its companions and reinforcing the main story through them, "wide-open areas" be damned. They can totally make the open-world area approach work but I think in the future they should stop the "you're the leader of x organization" crap. Bigger is rarely better and I don't want to be the Mary Sue Protagonist of Shepard ME3 or Inquisitor and possibly Ryder, where there's only snippets of good storytelling that I've roleplayed in between the crappy, bloated main narrative.
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Stealing Your Bike ;)
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
XBL Gamertag: Deebo314
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Post by deebo305 on Nov 18, 2016 19:24:33 GMT
Inquisition had problems but it wasn't terrible not sure why all the hate?
In any case this game needs to be seen by the general public, I really don't care what some random guy I don't care about thought of it, make a stream and show it off already!
N7 day trailer was OK but this game needs a good 10 to 30 minutes showing
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 18, 2016 19:24:52 GMT
I honestly don't see the difference between ME and DAI's open world. ME had large empty areas with a few points of interest. It might've had some few interesting quests, but that's not something that can't happen for MEA. We have to say how thet worked on the ratio between the type of quests, as well a in the quality of the writing of them. I'm pretty glad loyalty quests aren't as important as in ME2. Because while I enjoyed them, the downside was that the main plot was left to the side (with ME3 rendered completely useless in the end).
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Isn't Bioware just the greatest??
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Post by swagmaster97 on Nov 18, 2016 19:31:00 GMT
I believe I heard that you could RAM enemies with your NOMAD (reminds me of the good old days of parking my MAKO ontop of geth and pirates).
I am hearing alot of DA:I comparisons (big open maps full of nothingness & fetchquests). To me it rings of ME:1 with its big-open maps (only this time they look unique and beautiful like DA:I). Also supposedly this time these maps while contain hazards (think ME:1 or No Man's Sky) such as fire tornadoes, acid pools, or the local wildlife.
The linear, story based sections are pretty standard fair for Mass Effect/Dragon Age. It sure sounds like ME:1 only we may be required to explore the optional planets in order to progress the main-story (think finding Liara in ME:1).
Already I am filled with dread at the idea of quality quests such as "oh, you must be the Pathfinder. Listen, I need ten spacebear pelts cuz reasons" or "Hey Pathfinder, there are three Khet outposts in the region that are pestering us, you know what to do". Hopefully they can do a better job than DA:I at populating these areas with fun stuff to do. At the very least; let us skip the fetch quests (you need to find more blankets so the Inquisition has the power to unlock a real quest, lordinquisitor).
I am really hoping for a new & improved ME:1 experience. And the way they handle the open-ish world segments could MAKO or BRAKO the game (thanks gameinformer).
Still. I am confident Bioware can create a great addition to the Mass Effect franchise (DA:I was the only time they have ever really dropped the ball in my opinion; and that was their first shot at a cross-gen game on a new engine, with a game structure foreign to Dragon Age. I am personally willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Besides, I am just grateful to finally have a new Mass Effect game within a few short months).
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Post by javeart on Nov 18, 2016 19:38:01 GMT
The critical difference for me between ME1 and DAI is that I could ignore all the (for me) awfully boring driving around in planets with nothing but rocks to get some minerals or whatever... Of course, that results in an 8-10 hours playthrought and feels a little but I still prefere that to be force to make a 15 hours playthrough where 5-7 of them are a little like going to work (a work you don't like, of course ) Ideally I'd have a maybe 20-30 hours playthrough with main and ployalty missions and a few side quest with their own cinematics and all that are actually interesting... And it might seem like asking too much, but I got that in ME2 and ME3 and DAO and DA2, I wish I could have it again
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 18, 2016 21:06:16 GMT
... considering Mac said they "started with characters" and not in the "let's find out a plot from these characters" way, because much like Mike Laidlaw he seemed to brush story aside "yeah, yeah, there's the storytelling BioWare is known for... BUT THERE'S ALSO...!"
Sounds like they're excusing themselves, and it doesn't bode well because I don't want ME:A to be more a framework than an interactive story. At best it could feel like a season of a TV-show I guess, but even the Loyalty quests are said to be "shorter than the critical path levels" in the article and Mac confirms they don't impact the ending, so really, it sounds like the companion "inner circle" quests from DA:I which were essentially the same as the ME1 "loyalty missions". I really feel they're abusing the term considering ME2's loyalty quests were every bit as long and substantial as the main recruitment missions which were basically just critical path missions. I'm not sure I really care for having a bunch of "likeable, endearing(TM)" characters I need to get to know and they each have their own tangent-stories to the main narrative, which isn't even subplots, and that's all good and well written but nothign contributes to the sense of whole in the narrative. I just want a BioWare story that can top KOTOR in terms of building up all its companions and reinforcing the main story through them, "wide-open areas" be damned. They can totally make the open-world area approach work but I think in the future they should stop the "you're the leader of x organization" crap. Bigger is rarely better and I don't want to be the Mary Sue Protagonist of Shepard ME3 or Inquisitor and possibly Ryder, where there's only snippets of good storytelling that I've roleplayed in between the crappy, bloated main narrative. Couldn't agree more! Sure, characters are important but I think both ME2 and 3 have shown that you absolutely NEED to put them into a good story as well. They may be likable and all but if the reasons for their actions are not believable how could anyone really relate to them? IMO, the best case scenario that we can hope for now is that the main plot will be very simplistic. At least in that case, chances are they won't screw it up. In the end, I still hope tha they did learn these lessons from ME1-3 and maybe did finally get someone who makes sure they get basic logic right within their plots. But based on what Mac said so fr, it looks like they might go back to rool of cool all the way.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 18, 2016 21:25:42 GMT
I would much rather have piss poor plot then piss poor characters. The ME game that i consider had the strongest plot was my least favorite where my two favorte bw games had strong casts. Even games like Witcher 3 suffered from a weak cast.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 18, 2016 21:27:42 GMT
- Ryder's story takes on a more traditional Hero's Journey after enterting the status of Pathfinder. (Good vs Evil I guess?)' For reference: You can bet that the writers are well versed' in Campbell's concept. This table from Wikipedia compares different takes on the hero's journey: Act | Campbell (1949) | David Adams Leeming (1981)[9] | Phil Cousineau (1990)[10] | Christopher Vogler (2007)[11]
| I. Departure | 1. The Call to Adventure 2. Refusal of the Call 3. Supernatural Aid 4. Crossing the Threshold 5. Belly of the Whale
| 1. Miraculous conception and birth 2. Initiation of the hero-child 3. Withdrawal from family or community for meditation and preparation
| 1. The Call to Adventure | 1. The Ordinary World 2. The Call to Adventure 3. Refusal of the Call 4. Meeting with the Mentor 5. Crossing the Threshold to the Special World
| II. Initiation | 6. The Road of Trials 7. The Meeting with the Goddess 8. Woman as Temptress 9. Atonement with the Father 10. Apotheosis 11. The Ultimate Boon
| 4. Trial and Quest 5. Death 6. Descent into the underworld
| 2. The Road of Trials 3. The Vision Quest 4. The Meeting with the Goddess 5. The Boon
| 6. Tests, Allies and Enemies 7. Approach to the Innermost Cave 8. The Ordeal 9. Reward
| III. Return | 12. Refusal of the Return 13. The Magic Flight 14. Rescue from Without 15. The Crossing of the Return Threshold 16. Master of Two Worlds 17. Freedom to Live
| 7. Resurrection and rebirth 8. Ascension, apotheosis, and atonement
| 6. The Magic Flight 7.The Return Threshold 8.The Master of Two Worlds
| 10. The Road Back 11. The Resurrection 12. Return with the Elixir
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 18, 2016 21:35:08 GMT
I would much rather have piss poor plot then piss poor characters. The ME game that i consider had the strongest plot was my least favorite where my two favorte bw games had strong casts. Even games like Witcher 3 suffered from a weak cast. I think the problem is to look at those aspects seperately. There is no reason to have a trade-off between quality of plot and quality of characters. On the contrary, I think they are synergistic. Of course I would like great characters but I can't really get into them if the universe around them stops making sense.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 18, 2016 21:40:37 GMT
I would much rather have piss poor plot then piss poor characters. The ME game that i consider had the strongest plot was my least favorite where my two favorte bw games had strong casts. Even games like Witcher 3 suffered from a weak cast. I think the problem is to look at those aspects seperately. There is no reason to have a trade-off between quality of plot and quality of characters. Of course I would like great characters but I can't really get into them if the universe around them stops making sense. wouldn't that fall under the perview of setting though? I mean sure if a plot is absolutly and entirely horrible i am sure nothing can save it. But in my experience strng characters can carry a weak story much better than a strong plot can carry weak characters.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 18, 2016 21:45:13 GMT
I think the problem is to look at those aspects seperately. There is no reason to have a trade-off between quality of plot and quality of characters. Of course I would like great characters but I can't really get into them if the universe around them stops making sense. wouldn't that fall under the perview of setting though? I mean sure if a plot is absolutly and entirely horrible i am sure nothing can save it. But in my experience strng characters can carry a weak story much better than a strong plot can carry weak characters. That is a matter of preference. I for one tend to lean the other way. But as I said, I already consider needing to choose a pretty bad scenario to start with. Mac always seems to have this view of those aspects competing against each other, which makes me think hunder his direction, the writing team will be less likely to work towards an IMO much needed balance. That is it which makes me more skeptical towards the whole thing.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 18, 2016 21:45:47 GMT
wouldn't that fall under the perview of setting though? I mean sure if a plot is absolutly and entirely horrible i am sure nothing can save it. But in my experience strng characters can carry a weak story much better than a strong plot can carry weak characters. That is a matter of preference. I for one tend to lean the other way compared to you for example. But as I said, I already consider needing to choose a pretty bad scenario to start with. Mac always seems to have this view of those aspects competing against each other, which makes me think hunder his direction, the writing team will be less likely to work towards an IMO much needed balance. That is it which makes me more skeptical towards the whole thing.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 18, 2016 22:04:42 GMT
Besides, i heard once that Mac was a lot better at character writing then plots. If true then I would much rather him stick to what he knows then try and force himself into a writing box, which helps no one.
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The Elder King
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,370 Likes: 8,285
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 18, 2016 22:06:50 GMT
Besides, i heard once that Mac was a lot better at character writing then plots. If true then I would much rather him stick to what he knows then try and force himself into a writing box, which helps no one. His role seems to be more about controlling the other writers then directly write characters or plots though. It seems now he's back to be the lead writer as well, though I'm not sure he wrote characters.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 19, 2016 1:09:23 GMT
Everyone is overreacting to the DAI comparison. I've had this GI all along, and the comparison was not a major theme. Relax. Honestly, I figured any who wanted to know what was in the article would've made the effort to find out by now. I guess I should've posted a thread like this last week. Thanks, Link"Guess"ski , for being the one to do so. I don't think I'd have emphasized the same points from the article. That said, my poor health limits my motivation in offering my own detailed take, at present. (The same reason I didn't start a thread, truthfully.) The article is actually very heartening, in my opinion. I approached this game expecting loads of asspulls and retcons, and left this article with the impression of a well developed concept and story. The new gameplay mechanics sound promising, too. I really look forward to diving into this game.
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
Prime Posts: 1876
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
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MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Nov 19, 2016 1:18:03 GMT
Everyone is overreacting to the DAI comparison. I've had this GI all along, and the comparison was not a major theme. Relax. Honestly, I figured any who wanted to know what was in the article would've made the effort to find out by now. I guess I should've posted a thread like this last week. Thanks, Link"Guess"ski , for being the one to do so. I don't think I'd have emphasized the same points from the article. That said, my poor health limits my motivation in offering my own detailed take, at present. (The same reason I didn't start a thread, truthfully.) The article is actually very heartening, in my opinion. I got the impression of a well developed concept and story. The new gameplay mechanics sound promising. I really look forward to diving into this game. There is actually a thread with the article here (in page 2 from this section if i am not wrong). Instead of making a tempest in a tea cup people should go there a read the article for themselves instead of making assumptions based on what someone else thought about said article.
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Element Zero
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elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 19, 2016 1:19:45 GMT
Everyone is overreacting to the DAI comparison. I've had this GI all along, and the comparison was not a major theme. Relax. Honestly, I figured any who wanted to know what was in the article would've made the effort to find out by now. I guess I should've posted a thread like this last week. Thanks, Link"Guess"ski , for being the one to do so. I don't think I'd have emphasized the same points from the article. That said, my poor health limits my motivation in offering my own detailed take, at present. (The same reason I didn't start a thread, truthfully.) The article is actually very heartening, in my opinion. I got the impression of a well developed concept and story. The new gameplay mechanics sound promising. I really look forward to diving into this game. There is actually a thread with the article here (in page 2 from this section if i am not wrong). Instead of making a tempest in a tea cup people should go there a read the article for themselves instead of making assumptions based on what someone else thought about said article. Thanks. I'll check out that thread, also. The more discussion the merrier!
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linkenski
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 19, 2016 1:26:12 GMT
Besides, i heard once that Mac was a lot better at character writing then plots. If true then I would much rather him stick to what he knows then try and force himself into a writing box, which helps no one. He's better at writing conversational dialogue, except... sometimes he's not because clearly he didn't know where he was going with any of TIM's dialogue in ME3, and his other characters, Garrus ME1, Aria and James are all kind of stubborn characters, but I like them, I just think it was good back then that Mac was only a small part that balanced out the other writers' styles but as Lead his style kinda ruined the overall tone of the story to me, since ME3 was full of military acronyms and generic dialogue like "god help us all" and shit, and Shepard had a lot of "bro dialogue" which was cool, but it just wasn't anything like how he could emote back in ME1 or 2 and then at times he got downright annoying with it too. I think there's a slight misconception in the "character-writing vs plot-writing" notion though. They're not mutually exclusive at all. @element_Zero I should've kept my very subjective emphasis out of posting the facts of the article in my first post, and I should've noted down more things I left out as well. There's a lot of interesting details in it, but personally my impression when I was done reading it was that it's really, really similar to Inquisition and I just reacted to that having suspected it a lot beforehand.
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