mikaelnovasun
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 27, 2017 1:34:30 GMT
I get this is a game but I find it interesting and a bit alarming how some stretch things to justify murder. Because in the end that is what killing Kalinda entails. She has been pacified as a threat, so it is no longer self defense or defense of another. We should be better than looking at murder as a solution to a POSSIBLE future risk.
And comparing Kalinda to Majorlaine is ridiculous. Majorlaine betrayed Leliana and left her to face death for treason, then Majorlaine seeks out Leliana to kill her thinking she(Majorlaine) needs to do so since Leliana is likely kill her as an act of revenge. Kalinda and Peebee have a rocky relationship where they were on and off again. Peebee felt like she was being used and breaks it off. Which is common in some relationships today and isn't grounds for murder.
Now who is more like Majorlaine? Kalinda who vows to leave Peebee alone or Ryder who commits an act of murder to stop a POSSIBLE future threat?
When the hero starts justifying murder, they become the villain.
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 2:11:24 GMT
I get this is a game but I find it interesting and a bit alarming how some stretch things to justify murder. Because in the end that is what killing Kalinda entails. She has been pacified as a threat, so it is no longer self defense or defense of another. We should be better than looking at murder as a solution to a POSSIBLE future risk.
And comparing Kalinda to Majorlaine is ridiculous. Majorlaine betrayed Leliana and left her to face death for treason, then Majorlaine seeks out Leliana to kill her thinking she(Majorlaine) needs to do so since Leliana is likely kill her as an act of revenge. Kalinda and Peebee have a rocky relationship where they were on and off again. Peebee felt like she was being used and breaks it off. Which is common in some relationships today and isn't grounds for murder.
Now who is more like Majorlaine? Kalinda who vows to leave Peebee alone or Ryder who commits an act of murder to stop a POSSIBLE future threat?
When the hero starts justifying murder, they become the villain. In the MET we were given the choice to commit murder to prevent future problems. I believe it was called "Renegade?" And yet so many people think Renegade options were removed from ME:A. On topic, though, Kalinda committed attempted murder, or at the very least conspiracy to commit murder by hiring the thugs to do it. Andromeda is still a bit of a frontier, so frontier justice is the rule of the day, so I'm more than fine with Kalinda getting the bullet for what she tried to do. I'm personally of the opinion that once you decide to try and take my life, you've lost your right to use of the communal oxygen supply.
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Post by izut on Apr 27, 2017 2:32:09 GMT
I get this is a game but I find it interesting and a bit alarming how some stretch things to justify murder. Because in the end that is what killing Kalinda entails. She has been pacified as a threat, so it is no longer self defense or defense of another. We should be better than looking at murder as a solution to a POSSIBLE future risk.
And comparing Kalinda to Majorlaine is ridiculous. Majorlaine betrayed Leliana and left her to face death for treason, then Majorlaine seeks out Leliana to kill her thinking she(Majorlaine) needs to do so since Leliana is likely kill her as an act of revenge. Kalinda and Peebee have a rocky relationship where they were on and off again. Peebee felt like she was being used and breaks it off. Which is common in some relationships today and isn't grounds for murder.
Now who is more like Majorlaine? Kalinda who vows to leave Peebee alone or Ryder who commits an act of murder to stop a POSSIBLE future threat?
When the hero starts justifying murder, they become the villain. No, we killed an enemy who wanted us dead, could've saved herself and could've still kill PB by pulling on her hand. That's how I saw it deciding her fate. I did that out of the lack of trust for her, to protect PB from eating the lava. I'll do it every time, even knowing she shows up at the very end because at that particular moment, my Sara simply can't trust Kalinda not pulling on PB's hand. She made her bed the moment she ordered her army of people to kill me and my team. But as for the next games it goes as a possibility of her still being an enemy and causing troubles again, that's different. It's more like a bonus of what we chose to do with her. Just like you can say saving her can end up beneficial in the future, but you also have no idea if it will. It can end up with her killing tons of innocent people of all species. With what you say, we've also murdered the kett lady in the facility when we shot her in the back, literally. Betrayed and murdered. Because, to be fair, we can't be sure if meeting us didn't change yet, right?
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phantomrachie
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Post by phantomrachie on Apr 27, 2017 7:27:26 GMT
She could say no and eat the bullet. She's not paying a debt in that moment. She would be stupid if she tried to leave us, she was outnumbered. Also, it's not stealing if you kill her. Breaking into MY ship, stealing something that belongs to one of MY crew, breaking it up because it wasn't useful to her (she never intended to return it, she simply didn't find it useful so she left it, broken, like she left PB when she stopped being useful to her, also broken), but meant something to PB (she knew that so she chose to hurt PB's feelings again). It's not a silly game. It's disgusting and dangerous to my people because she proved she's ready to kill if someone prevents or rivals her from getting what she want. So I'm paranoid for seeing her as a threat even tho she just tried to kill me by sending plenty of her goons on me... ok... I guess they had water guns and I just imagined them shooting at me with real bullets... Kalinda's orders and disgusting comments were probably my imagination too. PB loved Kalinda. Really loved her. If she didn't, it wouldn't hurt her so much that she was treated like a trash. Ask her about Kalinda and you'll hear she's manipulative and the way PB describes her, you can understand she was abusive too. She used PB's feelings, she played an ugly game with her, knowing about PB's feelings and didn't give a damn about it. PB end up with heavy trust issues, broken and in pain. If you take PB and Jaal to Nomad, there'll be a conversation between them about Jaal seeing PB packing and unpacking over and over again. Connect the dots of what she told you and will tell later on and you'll see she was afraid of getting involved and attached to you and Tempest crew. She was afraid of getting hurt and she's afraid of hurting other people too. Hell, she made POC as a friend for herself because she could turn it off without hurting its feelings. Looks like you should play this game again. I wonder how stats looks like about her fate. Here and on other forums it looks like most of players see her as a threat for the future so they kill her. So Kalinda doesn't save you, in your mind, because you could have killed her and taken her stuff instead? I'm sorry but that's utter madness. If I choose to give you £10 you don't get to say 'well, if I killed you, I could steal all your money so actually you gave me nothing!" It's complete nonsense. Furthermore, if Kalinda was the diabolical bitch queen you paint her as, why would she even show up against the Archon? The 'debt' she owes only applies if you're applying a moral attitude to her that you're immediately disregarding by assuming she would try to kill you after having risked her life to save you. I understand Peebee's character. She was hurt because she opened up to someone and the relationship turned sour somehow. I love her as much as anyone else here, but, boohoo. Sometimes relationships fail. Sometimes you put yourself out there and the other person doesn't reciprocate. It hurts, but it doesn't equal emotional abuse. Peebee was lost after her break-up, to avoid the pain she decided to take a laissez faire attitude to everything, including you and the Tempest crew. Unless there's some straight up abusive content I'm completely forgetting like Kalinda gaslighting Peebee or physically abusing her then I just don't see a messy break up as a horrible crime. Peebee's inability to deal with rejection shouldn't be considered a sign of deeper trauma, in my opinion. Edit: Doesn't she place a tracking device inside POC for the explicit purpose of being able to follow Peebee to whether she thinks the Remtech is? Given that she placed the tracker there, it seems fair to me that she was always planning to have POC return to Peebee. It comes across as a part of a game to be played with Peebee. Quick Question - did you ask Peebee about her relationship with Kalinda after her loyal mission? Because the way Peebee describes her relationship with Kalinda is the description of a classic abusive relationship. The relationship didn't turn sour. What Peebee describes a cycle of abuse, which didn't really end because Kalinda just expected she could turn up and get back with Peebee. The summary of their relationship goes like this: Kalinda & Peebee get together by Kalinda being sweet to her, Kalinda eventually turns aggressive towards Peebee and eventually leaves her (making Peebee think it was her fault but really it was because Kalinda had no further use for her), Kalinda & Peebee get back together by Kalinda being sweet to her, etc. According to Peebee, this had happened multiple times, just because Kalinda had broken up with her now, is no reason to think she wouldn't turn up again, act all sweet and try to get back with Peebee. This is a classic cycle of abuse, not a relationship turned sour. That being said there are still reasons to keep Kalinda alive, my own original reason was an RP reason BUT you can't say their relationship was not emotionally abusive.
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phantomrachie
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Post by phantomrachie on Apr 27, 2017 7:35:12 GMT
I get this is a game but I find it interesting and a bit alarming how some stretch things to justify murder. Because in the end that is what killing Kalinda entails. She has been pacified as a threat, so it is no longer self defense or defense of another. We should be better than looking at murder as a solution to a POSSIBLE future risk.
And comparing Kalinda to Majorlaine is ridiculous. Majorlaine betrayed Leliana and left her to face death for treason, then Majorlaine seeks out Leliana to kill her thinking she(Majorlaine) needs to do so since Leliana is likely kill her as an act of revenge. Kalinda and Peebee have a rocky relationship where they were on and off again. Peebee felt like she was being used and breaks it off. Which is common in some relationships today and isn't grounds for murder.
Now who is more like Majorlaine? Kalinda who vows to leave Peebee alone or Ryder who commits an act of murder to stop a POSSIBLE future threat?
When the hero starts justifying murder, they become the villain. Seriously what did BioWare have to do to get some people to understand how abusive Peebee & Kalinda's relationship was. At a certain point, I thought that they were being a tad heavy-handed about it but it seems unless Peebee screams, "this was an abusive relationship" some people just don't get it. It was not rocky & Peebee never broke it off because she was feeling used. Kalinda always broke up with her and then was sweet to her to get her back, this occurred multiple times Kalinda always broke up with her and then was sweet to her to get her back, this occurred multiple times. How Peebee describes her relationship is the classic definition of an emotionally abusive relationship. Maybe lots of people are just lucky and never saw their friends go through a similar thing.
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Post by salariansupremacist on Apr 27, 2017 10:17:36 GMT
So Kalinda doesn't save you, in your mind, because you could have killed her and taken her stuff instead? I'm sorry but that's utter madness. If I choose to give you £10 you don't get to say 'well, if I killed you, I could steal all your money so actually you gave me nothing!" It's complete nonsense. Furthermore, if Kalinda was the diabolical bitch queen you paint her as, why would she even show up against the Archon? The 'debt' she owes only applies if you're applying a moral attitude to her that you're immediately disregarding by assuming she would try to kill you after having risked her life to save you. I understand Peebee's character. She was hurt because she opened up to someone and the relationship turned sour somehow. I love her as much as anyone else here, but, boohoo. Sometimes relationships fail. Sometimes you put yourself out there and the other person doesn't reciprocate. It hurts, but it doesn't equal emotional abuse. Peebee was lost after her break-up, to avoid the pain she decided to take a laissez faire attitude to everything, including you and the Tempest crew. Unless there's some straight up abusive content I'm completely forgetting like Kalinda gaslighting Peebee or physically abusing her then I just don't see a messy break up as a horrible crime. Peebee's inability to deal with rejection shouldn't be considered a sign of deeper trauma, in my opinion. Edit: Doesn't she place a tracking device inside POC for the explicit purpose of being able to follow Peebee to whether she thinks the Remtech is? Given that she placed the tracker there, it seems fair to me that she was always planning to have POC return to Peebee. It comes across as a part of a game to be played with Peebee. Quick Question - did you ask Peebee about her relationship with Kalinda after her loyal mission? Because the way Peebee describes her relationship with Kalinda is the description of a classic abusive relationship. The relationship didn't turn sour. What Peebee describes a cycle of abuse, which didn't really end because Kalinda just expected she could turn up and get back with Peebee. The summary of their relationship goes like this: Kalinda & Peebee get together by Kalinda being sweet to her, Kalinda eventually turns aggressive towards Peebee and eventually leaves her (making Peebee think it was her fault but really it was because Kalinda had no further use for her), Kalinda & Peebee get back together by Kalinda being sweet to her, etc. According to Peebee, this had happened multiple times, just because Kalinda had broken up with her now, is no reason to think she wouldn't turn up again, act all sweet and try to get back with Peebee. This is a classic cycle of abuse, not a relationship turned sour. That being said there are still reasons to keep Kalinda alive, my own original reason was an RP reason BUT you can't say their relationship was not emotionally abusive. I did speak to Peebee about Kalinda. I can't remember the specifics of what she said, which is annoying, but based on my recollections and the summary you give, I just don't feel comfortable calling it abusive. I, unfortunately, know somebody in the late stages of a divorce because the man she married turned out to be an abusive psycho who listens to all her phone calls and tries to control where she goes and who she sees. That's abusive. Telling someone you intend to kill yourself if they don't continue a relationship is abusive. Gaslighting is abusive, and I suppose you could say Kalinda did that depending on exactly how the break-ups went down, but we're not privy to those details, we only have Peebee's take on the relationship. I don't want to get into disgusting 'two sides' arguments though that implicitly support abusers though which is why I've asked for concrete details on things that I may have forgotten. As it stands though, the summary of their relationship could easily be applied to half a dozen people I knew at University. It's the sort of relationship I've seen emotionally immature people engage in all the time.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 27, 2017 11:03:04 GMT
I didn't kill Kalinda, because Peebee asked me not to.
Not saying that I don't think that Kalinda deserves to die for all she's put Peebee through, the stunts she pulls in MEA and how casually she disregards the lives of her own lackeys.
But if she was going to die, then I think it really falls down to Peebee to make that decision.
Why should Ryder get to make that decision for her? It's not a life or death situation where shooting Kalinda is necessary to protect Peebee from imminent danger or because Kalinda is threatening her in any way? Instead Ryder's shooting her in the back, right after Peebee told us to save her, under the rationale that it's to protect Peebee from something Kalinda might do in the future.
Again, Kalinda would definitely have it coming, but I don't think the scenario justifies us being the one to take her out.
Ultimately I think it depends on whether she sticks to her new leaf or slips back to her old ways again. In the latter case, I definitely wouldn't give her a second chance, especially if she does something to hurt Peebee again. And if in the long-run it turns out that mercy wasn't the best option, I'll probably concede that taking her out earlier was the better outcome.
(Incidentally, I did let Drack drop Aroane to his death. I figured that since Drack was the one holding him over the ledge and it was his people that were threatened, this was his call to make. Pity that Spender didn't receive half as bad a punishment, despite being the ringleader)
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Post by phantomrachie on Apr 27, 2017 11:06:47 GMT
Quick Question - did you ask Peebee about her relationship with Kalinda after her loyal mission? Because the way Peebee describes her relationship with Kalinda is the description of a classic abusive relationship. The relationship didn't turn sour. What Peebee describes a cycle of abuse, which didn't really end because Kalinda just expected she could turn up and get back with Peebee. The summary of their relationship goes like this: Kalinda & Peebee get together by Kalinda being sweet to her, Kalinda eventually turns aggressive towards Peebee and eventually leaves her (making Peebee think it was her fault but really it was because Kalinda had no further use for her), Kalinda & Peebee get back together by Kalinda being sweet to her, etc. According to Peebee, this had happened multiple times, just because Kalinda had broken up with her now, is no reason to think she wouldn't turn up again, act all sweet and try to get back with Peebee. This is a classic cycle of abuse, not a relationship turned sour. That being said there are still reasons to keep Kalinda alive, my own original reason was an RP reason BUT you can't say their relationship was not emotionally abusive. I did speak to Peebee about Kalinda. I can't remember the specifics of what she said, which is annoying, but based on my recollections and the summary you give, I just don't feel comfortable calling it abusive. I, unfortunately, know somebody in the late stages of a divorce because the man she married turned out to be an abusive psycho who listens to all her phone calls and tries to control where she goes and who she sees. That's abusive. Telling someone you intend to kill yourself if they don't continue a relationship is abusive. Gaslighting is abusive, and I suppose you could say Kalinda did that depending on exactly how the break-ups went down, but we're not privy to those details, we only have Peebee's take on the relationship. I don't want to get into disgusting 'two sides' arguments though that implicitly support abusers though which is why I've asked for concrete details on things that I may have forgotten. As it stands though, the summary of their relationship could easily be applied to half a dozen people I knew at University. It's the sort of relationship I've seen emotionally immature people engage in all the time. I get that there are way worse types of abusive then what Peebee went through, but that does negate her experience. The conversation about the break up goes something like this. Ryder: Tell me about the breakup Peebee: which time, she'd thrown my aside so many times I felt like a yo, yo, each more cruelly than the last. Each time she'd come back telling me her feelings were so intense that she got scared until she disappeared when I found my first ruin. Throwing someone aside cruelly, then sweet talking them back with the excuse that you just 'cared too much for them' is one of the hallmarks of the abuser. Many behaviours the people write off has just two emotionally immature people, can actually be an abusive relationship, particularly if it's as one-sided as this one. I've seen people's lives destroyed by behaviour people excuse because the other person is "emotionally immature" Peebee frames Kalinda helping her live off grid as being nice, BUT given what else we know about her behaviour, it was also a way of making Peebee rely on her. Peebee needed Kalinda to get resources to live on the Nexus, Kalinda gaslighted her into thinking that she was doing it to be nice, but really it was to control Peebee so when Peebee discovered something important like Remtech, she could exploit it. Kalinda never told Peebee anything important about herself and treated her like her property or a resource to be exploited. There is alot of evidence for this: Peebee says Kalinda made her feel special but we also know that Kalinda diminished Peebee's achievements & trotted her out at parties as a status symbol, this indicates that gaslighting was part of their relationship. She leaves Peebee as soon as she makes an important discovery, she diminishes a breakthrough Peebee has made by calling it a toy and steals and destroys it because Peebee is just another resource to be mined. She refers to Ryder, a person Peebee has an important relationship with (either as a friend or lover) as just another toy that she can break, she spies on Peebee so she can loot & exploit anything that she discovers. This is not to say that she automatically deserves to die. That is up to the individual player and their RP. I think there are valid arguments for both.
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mikaelnovasun
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 27, 2017 11:19:40 GMT
Quick Question - did you ask Peebee about her relationship with Kalinda after her loyal mission? Because the way Peebee describes her relationship with Kalinda is the description of a classic abusive relationship. The relationship didn't turn sour. What Peebee describes a cycle of abuse, which didn't really end because Kalinda just expected she could turn up and get back with Peebee. The summary of their relationship goes like this: Kalinda & Peebee get together by Kalinda being sweet to her, Kalinda eventually turns aggressive towards Peebee and eventually leaves her (making Peebee think it was her fault but really it was because Kalinda had no further use for her), Kalinda & Peebee get back together by Kalinda being sweet to her, etc. According to Peebee, this had happened multiple times, just because Kalinda had broken up with her now, is no reason to think she wouldn't turn up again, act all sweet and try to get back with Peebee. This is a classic cycle of abuse, not a relationship turned sour. That being said there are still reasons to keep Kalinda alive, my own original reason was an RP reason BUT you can't say their relationship was not emotionally abusive. I did speak to Peebee about Kalinda. I can't remember the specifics of what she said, which is annoying, but based on my recollections and the summary you give, I just don't feel comfortable calling it abusive. I, unfortunately, know somebody in the late stages of a divorce because the man she married turned out to be an abusive psycho who listens to all her phone calls and tries to control where she goes and who she sees. That's abusive. Telling someone you intend to kill yourself if they don't continue a relationship is abusive. Gaslighting is abusive, and I suppose you could say Kalinda did that depending on exactly how the break-ups went down, but we're not privy to those details, we only have Peebee's take on the relationship. I don't want to get into disgusting 'two sides' arguments though that implicitly support abusers though which is why I've asked for concrete details on things that I may have forgotten. As it stands though, the summary of their relationship could easily be applied to half a dozen people I knew at University. It's the sort of relationship I've seen emotionally immature people engage in all the time. I agree, and what Peebee describes isn't abuse. Kalinda is dominate and controling but not abusive given Peebee's dialog in game. As for the breaking up being cruel, yea it can be cruel messy and emotionally destressing, I have had my share of bad break ups. My sister in-law was in an abusive relationship, and the guy never laid a hand on her. He verbally put her down, made her feel worthless, and that she deserved it. He made her feel trapped, and was on the eventual rode to physical abuse. Thankfully she got support from her family and got out before it went that far. Peebee describes none of this, doesn't even hint at it nor shows the signs I saw in my sister-law before she got out. Many seem to paint Kalinda as abusive partner instead of an overbearing and controlling partner to justify MURDERING her. As for renegade choices to kill people in MET, yea they were still murder, and what I said still applies. Murder for the greater good, yea that worked out so well for TIM. In regards to Kalinda pulling over the ledge Peebee, come on really? Think about it, I mean really think about it. Kalinda is hanging on a platform that is tilting towards her into lava. Pulling Peebee to her will result in her death. Either because Peebee has a solid grip on her, from attempting to pull Kalinda up and they both go in. Or Peebee starts to fall bumps into Kalinda and they both still fall in. Or Ryder kills Kalinda if she manages to pull Peebee in and still hang on to the ledge. But hey justify it however you like, it is still murder. You know what would happen to a soldier or cop in a similar situation? First they wouldn't fire a round so close to a friendly, but if they did and managed to kill the "bad guy" they would be charged with murder, and face trial or court martial.
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Post by RhiannoN7 on Apr 27, 2017 11:20:25 GMT
When talking to Peebee about kalinda she says "she hurt me pretty badly" its pretty clear kalinda was never nice to her
And when you first meet kalinda in her apartment is that not kalinda coming back to use Peebee again but gets interupted because Ryder is with her?
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mikaelnovasun
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 27, 2017 11:35:49 GMT
When talking to Peebee about kalinda she says "she hurt me pretty badly" its pretty clear kalinda was never nice to her And when you first meet kalinda in her apartment is that not kalinda coming back to use Peebee again but gets interupted because Ryder is with her? Really that is what you take for signs of never being nice? Have any of you been in a failed relationship? Seriously.... I have been in some relationships that I can say "she hurt me pretty badly". Which lead to the break up, but prior to that, I had fun, and some great moments. As for Kalinda coming back. I think she genuinely cares for Peebee in her own dominating and controlling way. And while it isn't abusive, it isn't healthy by any means either and Peebee realizes that and stays away from her. Also in regards to Kalinda sending guys to kill Ryder and Peebee. Let me ask this, who is the aggressor? Kalinda's guys beat Ryder and Peebee time and again to the Rem-tech sites, and who kills who to get the artifacts? In the final loyalty mission Kalinda's group avoids Ryder and Peebee, and then sets up a defense point, and who decides to attack and push through Kalinda's fodder to get the rem-tech? We don't have a choice due to mission structure, but in reality Ryder and Peebee could have said to hell with it, Kalinda can have the rem-tech, can we have a ride off the surface....and I bet Kalinda would have been fine with that. I enjoy Peebee's missions and she is my favorite love interest, but Ryder and Peebee are not blameless. They fear what rem-tech could do in the wrong hands and rightly so, but that doesn't negate their actions.
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RhiannoN7
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Post by RhiannoN7 on Apr 27, 2017 11:45:34 GMT
When talking to Peebee about kalinda she says "she hurt me pretty badly" its pretty clear kalinda was never nice to her And when you first meet kalinda in her apartment is that not kalinda coming back to use Peebee again but gets interupted because Ryder is with her? Really that is what you take for signs of never being nice? Have any of you been in a failed relationship? Seriously.... I been in some relationships that I can say "she hurt me pretty badly". Which lead to the break up, but prior to that, I had fun, and some great moments. As for Kalinda coming back. I think she genuinely careless for Peebee in her own dominating and controlling way. And while it isn't abusive, it isn't a healthy by any means either and Peebee realizes that and stays away from her. Also in regards to Kalinda sending guys to kill Ryder. Let me ask this, who is the aggressor? Kalinda's guys beat Ryder and Peebee time and again to the Rem-tech sites, and who kills who to get the artifacts? In the final loyalty mission Kalinda's group avoids Ryder and Peebee, and then sets up a defense point, and who decides to attack and push through Kalinda's fodder to get the rem-tech? We don't have a choice due to mission structure, but in reality Ryder and Peebee could have said to hell with it, Kalinda can have the rem-tech, can we have a ride off the surface....and I bet Kalinda would have been fine with that. I enjoy Peebee's missions and she is my favorite love interest, but Ryder and Peebee are not blameless. They fear what rem-tech could do in the wrong hands and rightly so, but that doesn't negate their actions. Kalinda only knew the location of the rem-tech cause she stole POC iirc As for that quote that is the one I remembered the most I'm sure she mentions more about Kalinda in other conversations you have with peebee, and as other people have mentioned we do not have the full story about Kalinda because peebee herself is often vague and metions she doesn't want to bring up her sob story.
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mikaelnovasun
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 27, 2017 11:58:22 GMT
Really that is what you take for signs of never being nice? Have any of you been in a failed relationship? Seriously.... I been in some relationships that I can say "she hurt me pretty badly". Which lead to the break up, but prior to that, I had fun, and some great moments. As for Kalinda coming back. I think she genuinely careless for Peebee in her own dominating and controlling way. And while it isn't abusive, it isn't a healthy by any means either and Peebee realizes that and stays away from her. Also in regards to Kalinda sending guys to kill Ryder. Let me ask this, who is the aggressor? Kalinda's guys beat Ryder and Peebee time and again to the Rem-tech sites, and who kills who to get the artifacts? In the final loyalty mission Kalinda's group avoids Ryder and Peebee, and then sets up a defense point, and who decides to attack and push through Kalinda's fodder to get the rem-tech? We don't have a choice due to mission structure, but in reality Ryder and Peebee could have said to hell with it, Kalinda can have the rem-tech, can we have a ride off the surface....and I bet Kalinda would have been fine with that. I enjoy Peebee's missions and she is my favorite love interest, but Ryder and Peebee are not blameless. They fear what rem-tech could do in the wrong hands and rightly so, but that doesn't negate their actions. Kalinda only knew the location of the rem-tech cause she stole POC iirc As for that quote that is the one I remembered the most I'm sure she mentions more about Kalinda in other conversations you have with peebee, and as other people have mentioned we do not have the full story about Kalinda because peebee herself is often vague and metions she doesn't want to bring up her sob story. So you fill in the blanks and assume the worst, in that Kalinda was an abuser. In regards to stealing POC and implanting a tracking device, I think Peebee wasn't the only one hurt when the relationship ended for good. Kalinda is use to pushing Peebee until she leaves and eventually comes back. This time Peebee doesn't so, feeling a bit abandoned, Kalinda goes after the one thing Peebee seems to care about Rem-tech to get her attention again. She didn't hurt anyone or murder them when stealing POC. Kalinda and Peebee are both a mess from their breakup and it takes Ryder's involvement to help them both work beyond it. In Peebee's case it leads to her learning to trust again either as a friend or lover. With Kalinda her need to get Peebee's attention either results in Kalinda being murdered, or learning to let Peebee go and find her own happiness. Kalinda showing up at the end to help against the Archon shows she isn't the uncaring abusive villain as many here seem to think.
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bezul
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Post by bezul on Apr 27, 2017 12:22:03 GMT
Awwwwwwwwwwww, she's so damn cute, I'm crying :sob: I can't romance anyone else, only PB :sob: :sob:
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RhiannoN7
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Post by RhiannoN7 on Apr 27, 2017 12:30:13 GMT
Kalinda only knew the location of the rem-tech cause she stole POC iirc As for that quote that is the one I remembered the most I'm sure she mentions more about Kalinda in other conversations you have with peebee, and as other people have mentioned we do not have the full story about Kalinda because peebee herself is often vague and metions she doesn't want to bring up her sob story. So you fill in the blanks and assume the worst, in that Kalinda was an abuser. In regards to stealing POC and implanting a tracking device, I think Peebee wasn't the only one hurt when the relationship ended for good. Kalinda is use to pushing Peebee until she leaves and eventually comes back. This time Peebee doesn't so, feeling a bit abandoned, Kalinda goes after the one thing Peebee seems to care about Rem-tech to get her attention again. She didn't hurt anyone or murder them when stealing POC. Kalinda and Peebee are both a mess from their breakup and it takes Ryder's involvement to help them both work beyond it. In Peebee's case it leads to her learning to trust again either as a friend or lover. With Kalinda her need to get Peebee's attention either results in Kalinda being murdered, or learning to let Peebee go and find her own happiness. Kalinda showing up at the end to help against the Archon shows she isn't the uncaring abusive villain as many here seem to think. I never said Kalinda was an ABUSER BUT she is absolutely UNCARING and Manipulative: Stealing POC from peebee using her for the location of the remtech Using her and discarding her when it suits her (on multiple ocassions) Threatening RYDER Her condescending tone towards Peebee at all times I dont think anything she did besides waking her from cryo was paticularly nice...
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mikaelnovasun
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 27, 2017 12:39:05 GMT
I did speak to Peebee about Kalinda. I can't remember the specifics of what she said, which is annoying, but based on my recollections and the summary you give, I just don't feel comfortable calling it abusive. I, unfortunately, know somebody in the late stages of a divorce because the man she married turned out to be an abusive psycho who listens to all her phone calls and tries to control where she goes and who she sees. That's abusive. Telling someone you intend to kill yourself if they don't continue a relationship is abusive. Gaslighting is abusive, and I suppose you could say Kalinda did that depending on exactly how the break-ups went down, but we're not privy to those details, we only have Peebee's take on the relationship. I don't want to get into disgusting 'two sides' arguments though that implicitly support abusers though which is why I've asked for concrete details on things that I may have forgotten. As it stands though, the summary of their relationship could easily be applied to half a dozen people I knew at University. It's the sort of relationship I've seen emotionally immature people engage in all the time. I get that there are way worse types of abusive then what Peebee went through, but that does negate her experience. The conversation about the break up goes something like this. Ryder: Tell me about the breakup Peebee: which time, she'd thrown my aside so many times I felt like a yo, yo, each more cruelly than the last. Each time she'd come back telling me her feelings were so intense that she got scared until she disappeared when I found my first ruin. Throwing someone aside cruelly, then sweet talking them back with the excuse that you just 'cared too much for them' is one of the hallmarks of the abuser. Many behaviours the people write off has just two emotionally immature people, can actually be an abusive relationship, particularly if it's as one-sided as this one. I've seen people's lives destroyed by behaviour people excuse because the other person is "emotionally immature" Peebee frames Kalinda helping her live off grid as being nice, BUT given what else we know about her behaviour, it was also a way of making Peebee rely on her. Peebee needed Kalinda to get resources to live on the Nexus, Kalinda gaslighted her into thinking that she was doing it to be nice, but really it was to control Peebee so when Peebee discovered something important like Remtech, she could exploit it. Kalinda never told Peebee anything important about herself and treated her like her property or a resource to be exploited. There is alot of evidence for this: Peebee says Kalinda made her feel special but we also know that Kalinda diminished Peebee's achievements & trotted her out at parties as a status symbol, this indicates that gaslighting was part of their relationship. She leaves Peebee as soon as she makes an important discovery, she diminishes a breakthrough Peebee has made by calling it a toy and steals and destroys it because Peebee is just another resource to be mined. She refers to Ryder, a person Peebee has an important relationship with (either as a friend or lover) as just another toy that she can break, she spies on Peebee so she can loot & exploit anything that she discovers. This is not to say that she automatically deserves to die. That is up to the individual player and their RP. I think there are valid arguments for both. I don't see Kalinda anywhere near what you portray her to be. You are filling in the holes that Peebee won't share and assuming the worst. There are always two sides to a story, and as much I as I love Peebee we are only hearing one side of the story, and the offended one at that. Also that you think there are valid arguments for murder is a bit distressing .
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phantomrachie
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Post by phantomrachie on Apr 27, 2017 13:06:30 GMT
I get that there are way worse types of abusive then what Peebee went through, but that does negate her experience. The conversation about the break up goes something like this. Ryder: Tell me about the breakup Peebee: which time, she'd thrown my aside so many times I felt like a yo, yo, each more cruelly than the last. Each time she'd come back telling me her feelings were so intense that she got scared until she disappeared when I found my first ruin. Throwing someone aside cruelly, then sweet talking them back with the excuse that you just 'cared too much for them' is one of the hallmarks of the abuser. Many behaviours the people write off has just two emotionally immature people, can actually be an abusive relationship, particularly if it's as one-sided as this one. I've seen people's lives destroyed by behaviour people excuse because the other person is "emotionally immature" Peebee frames Kalinda helping her live off grid as being nice, BUT given what else we know about her behaviour, it was also a way of making Peebee rely on her. Peebee needed Kalinda to get resources to live on the Nexus, Kalinda gaslighted her into thinking that she was doing it to be nice, but really it was to control Peebee so when Peebee discovered something important like Remtech, she could exploit it. Kalinda never told Peebee anything important about herself and treated her like her property or a resource to be exploited. There is alot of evidence for this: Peebee says Kalinda made her feel special but we also know that Kalinda diminished Peebee's achievements & trotted her out at parties as a status symbol, this indicates that gaslighting was part of their relationship. She leaves Peebee as soon as she makes an important discovery, she diminishes a breakthrough Peebee has made by calling it a toy and steals and destroys it because Peebee is just another resource to be mined. She refers to Ryder, a person Peebee has an important relationship with (either as a friend or lover) as just another toy that she can break, she spies on Peebee so she can loot & exploit anything that she discovers. This is not to say that she automatically deserves to die. That is up to the individual player and their RP. I think there are valid arguments for both. I don't see Kalinda anywhere near what you portray her to be. You are filling in the holes that Peebee won't share and assuming the worst. There are always two sides to a story, and as much I as I love Peebee we are only hearing one side of the story, and the offended one at that. Also that you think there are valid arguments for murder is a bit distressing . I don't agree that I'm filling in holes. I'm listening to what both Peebee & Kalinda say and viewing how they act throughout the game and making a judgment. You say that Kalinda is dominating and controlling of Peebee, but dominating and controlling your partner without their consent (as in a safe BDSM relationship), is abuse. And we know that Peebee didn't consent to be dominated and controlled by Kalinda. We see & hear Kalinda belittled and dismiss the Peebee's work and relationships to control her. That is in the game, I don't have to fill in a gap. And yes there are valid arguments for murder, in fiction where morality is more black and white than it is in reality, sometimes murdering one person can save many more lives. Killing the Joker would save 1000's of lives. Killing the woman with the uncurable, incredibly contagious cross-species disease so the Roekaar can't weaponise and kill all the people from the Milkyway, saves lives. In fiction, in situations too numerous to count, killing one person saves lives. Then there are all the RP reasons why you might kill Kalinda, Ryder might be worried that Kalinda would drag Peebee into the lava, Ryder could be out for revenge for Kalinda trying to kill her, Ryder could think that killing Kalinda is the only way to keep Peebee safe from her etc. This is a roleplaying game, players decide which action best fits the kind of Ryder they are roleplaying. You shouldn't judge them for that.
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mikaelnovasun
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 27, 2017 13:35:29 GMT
I don't see Kalinda anywhere near what you portray her to be. You are filling in the holes that Peebee won't share and assuming the worst. There are always two sides to a story, and as much I as I love Peebee we are only hearing one side of the story, and the offended one at that. Also that you think there are valid arguments for murder is a bit distressing . I don't agree that I'm filling in holes. I'm listening to what both Peebee & Kalinda say and viewing how they act throughout the game and making a judgment. You say that Kalinda is dominating and controlling of Peebee, but dominating and controlling your partner without their consent (as in a safe BDSM relationship), is abuse. And we know that Peebee didn't consent to be dominated and controlled by Kalinda. We see & hear Kalinda belittled and dismiss the Peebee's work and relationships to control her. That is in the game, I don't have to fill in a gap. And yes there are valid arguments for murder, in fiction where morality is more black and white than it is in reality, sometimes murdering one person can save many more lives. Killing the Joker would save 1000's of lives. Killing the woman with the uncurable, incredibly contagious cross-species disease so the Roekaar can't weaponise and kill all the people from the Milkyway, saves lives. In fiction, in situations too numerous to count, killing one person saves lives. Then there are all the RP reasons why you might kill Kalinda, Ryder might be worried that Kalinda would drag Peebee into the lava, Ryder could be out for revenge for Kalinda trying to kill her, Ryder could think that killing Kalinda is the only way to keep Peebee safe from her etc. This is a roleplaying game, players decide which action best fits the kind of Ryder they are roleplaying. You shouldn't judge them for that. Really? So your definition of a cruel break up is the same as Peebee's or mine or another person's? We get very little detail about their relationship. Is the way Kalinda talks to Peebee after the break up a sign of how it was during the relationship or Kalinda acting out because she feels hurt and abandoned, and she wants some type of emotional reaction from Peebee instead of indifference? You are making several assumptions, and using your own experiences, knowledge and bias to fill in what isn't known. We all do it to some extent, I always try and catch my self and look at everything objectively. I get that is a RP game, and I don't have a problem with people killing virtual characters. I just find it interesting what others do to justify murder, or even avoid calling it an act of murder in this case. The fact that someone can reconile when murder is acceptable should be a bit distressing, at least own up to it and admit killing Kalinda to be what it is..an act of murder. I get there are instances were there is no right choice, but the option to kill Kalinda isn't one of them. Just look at the results if you don't kill her. She shows up to HELP, but no that isn't a factor because at some future time she MIGHT try and kill Peebee or Ryder. Killing Peebee was never Kalinda's goal. Beating Peebee to Rem-tech was her goal and her attempt to get Peebee's attention and an emotional reaction.
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 13:40:07 GMT
I don't agree that I'm filling in holes. I'm listening to what both Peebee & Kalinda say and viewing how they act throughout the game and making a judgment. You say that Kalinda is dominating and controlling of Peebee, but dominating and controlling your partner without their consent (as in a safe BDSM relationship), is abuse. And we know that Peebee didn't consent to be dominated and controlled by Kalinda. We see & hear Kalinda belittled and dismiss the Peebee's work and relationships to control her. That is in the game, I don't have to fill in a gap. And yes there are valid arguments for murder, in fiction where morality is more black and white than it is in reality, sometimes murdering one person can save many more lives. Killing the Joker would save 1000's of lives. Killing the woman with the uncurable, incredibly contagious cross-species disease so the Roekaar can't weaponise and kill all the people from the Milkyway, saves lives. In fiction, in situations too numerous to count, killing one person saves lives. Then there are all the RP reasons why you might kill Kalinda, Ryder might be worried that Kalinda would drag Peebee into the lava, Ryder could be out for revenge for Kalinda trying to kill her, Ryder could think that killing Kalinda is the only way to keep Peebee safe from her etc. This is a roleplaying game, players decide which action best fits the kind of Ryder they are roleplaying. You shouldn't judge them for that. Really? So your definition of a cruel break up is the same as Peebee's or mine or another person's? We get very little detail about their relationship. Is the way Kalinda talks to Peebee after the break up a sign of how it was during the relationship or Kalinda acting out because she feels hurt and abandoned, and she wants some type of emotional reaction from Peebee instead of indifference? You are making several assumptions, and using your own experiences, knowledge and bias to fill in what isn't known. We all do it to some extent, I always try and catch my self and look at everything objectively. I get that is a RP game, and I don't have a problem with people killing virtual characters. I just find it interesting what others do to justify murder, or even avoid calling it an act of murder in this case. The fact that someone can reconile when murder is acceptable should be a bit distressing, at least own up to it and admit killing Kalinda to be what it is..an act of murder. I get there are instances were there is no right choice, but the option to kill Kalinda isn't one of them. Just look at the results if you don't kill her. She shows up to HELP, but no that isn't a factor because at some future time she MIGHT try and kill Peebee or Ryder. Killing Peebee was never Kalinda's goal. Beating Peebee to Rem-tech was her goal and her attempt to get Peebee's attention and an emotional reaction.I'm not gonna comment on the rest of your post, but this last one here, is blatantly false. On Peebee's loyalty mission, Kalinda specifically hired mercenaries to fight us, and made comments about more money to the ones who put us down. She even talked about pulling the implants out of us. So, yes, Kalinda (at least by the end of this story arc) was intending for Ryder and Peebee to die, thus that being a part of her "goal." Edit: Whether or not you see Peebee and Kalinda's past relationship as abusive, the fact that Kalinda tried to kill us is justification, in my mind, for putting her down. She tried once, she may try again, and I also feel if you've tried to kill me, I have the right to return the favor. Stalking someone for months and planning it all out is outside of what I'm talking about here, but in the moment? Yeah, I wouldn't vote to convict someone who chose that in a similar situation.
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mikaelnovasun
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 27, 2017 13:57:15 GMT
Really? So your definition of a cruel break up is the same as Peebee's or mine or another person's? We get very little detail about their relationship. Is the way Kalinda talks to Peebee after the break up a sign of how it was during the relationship or Kalinda acting out because she feels hurt and abandoned, and she wants some type of emotional reaction from Peebee instead of indifference? You are making several assumptions, and using your own experiences, knowledge and bias to fill in what isn't known. We all do it to some extent, I always try and catch my self and look at everything objectively. I get that is a RP game, and I don't have a problem with people killing virtual characters. I just find it interesting what others do to justify murder, or even avoid calling it an act of murder in this case. The fact that someone can reconile when murder is acceptable should be a bit distressing, at least own up to it and admit killing Kalinda to be what it is..an act of murder. I get there are instances were there is no right choice, but the option to kill Kalinda isn't one of them. Just look at the results if you don't kill her. She shows up to HELP, but no that isn't a factor because at some future time she MIGHT try and kill Peebee or Ryder. Killing Peebee was never Kalinda's goal. Beating Peebee to Rem-tech was her goal and her attempt to get Peebee's attention and an emotional reaction.I'm not gonna comment on the rest of your post, but this last one here, is blatantly false. On Peebee's loyalty mission, Kalinda specifically hired mercenaries to fight us, and made comments about more money to the ones who put us down. She even talked about pulling the implants out of us. So, yes, Kalinda (at least by the end of this story arc) was intending for Ryder and Peebee to die, thus that being a part of her "goal." Edit: Whether or not you see Peebee and Kalinda's past relationship as abusive, the fact that Kalinda tried to kill us is justification, in my mind, for putting her down. She tried once, she may try again, and I also feel if you've tried to kill me, I have the right to return the favor. Stalking someone for months and planning it all out is outside of what I'm talking about here, but in the moment? Yeah, I wouldn't vote to convict someone who chose that in a similar situation. She hired mercs to help her get the rem-tech. Ryder and Peebee force the fight since they always arrived after Kalinda's forces were on site either retrieving the rem-tech or dying to Remnant robots. As to her comments once we are attacking her forces, is that what she really plans or meant to taunt us and Peebee? If her goal was to simply kill, she could have done something on the Temptest when stealing POC, or set up an ambush when Ryder and Peebee went to retrieve POC.
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 14:00:44 GMT
I'm not gonna comment on the rest of your post, but this last one here, is blatantly false. On Peebee's loyalty mission, Kalinda specifically hired mercenaries to fight us, and made comments about more money to the ones who put us down. She even talked about pulling the implants out of us. So, yes, Kalinda (at least by the end of this story arc) was intending for Ryder and Peebee to die, thus that being a part of her "goal." Edit: Whether or not you see Peebee and Kalinda's past relationship as abusive, the fact that Kalinda tried to kill us is justification, in my mind, for putting her down. She tried once, she may try again, and I also feel if you've tried to kill me, I have the right to return the favor. Stalking someone for months and planning it all out is outside of what I'm talking about here, but in the moment? Yeah, I wouldn't vote to convict someone who chose that in a similar situation. She hired mercs to help her get the rem-tech. Ryder and Peebee force the fight since they always arrived after Kalinda's forces were on site either retrieving the rem-tech or dying to Remnant robots. As to her comments once we are attacking her forces, is that what she really plans or meant to taunt us and Peebee? If her goal was to simply kill, she could have done something on the Temptest when stealing POC, or set up an ambush when Ryder and Peebee went to retrieve POC. Ok, her telling her crew to stop us, and them firing at us, isn't trying to kill us? Whatever, dude. I'm done. Don't want to get into a pointless argument over the internet.
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phantomrachie
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Post by phantomrachie on Apr 27, 2017 14:22:09 GMT
I don't agree that I'm filling in holes. I'm listening to what both Peebee & Kalinda say and viewing how they act throughout the game and making a judgment. You say that Kalinda is dominating and controlling of Peebee, but dominating and controlling your partner without their consent (as in a safe BDSM relationship), is abuse. And we know that Peebee didn't consent to be dominated and controlled by Kalinda. We see & hear Kalinda belittled and dismiss the Peebee's work and relationships to control her. That is in the game, I don't have to fill in a gap. And yes there are valid arguments for murder, in fiction where morality is more black and white than it is in reality, sometimes murdering one person can save many more lives. Killing the Joker would save 1000's of lives. Killing the woman with the uncurable, incredibly contagious cross-species disease so the Roekaar can't weaponise and kill all the people from the Milkyway, saves lives. In fiction, in situations too numerous to count, killing one person saves lives. Then there are all the RP reasons why you might kill Kalinda, Ryder might be worried that Kalinda would drag Peebee into the lava, Ryder could be out for revenge for Kalinda trying to kill her, Ryder could think that killing Kalinda is the only way to keep Peebee safe from her etc. This is a roleplaying game, players decide which action best fits the kind of Ryder they are roleplaying. You shouldn't judge them for that. Really? So your definition of a cruel break up is the same as Peebee's or mine or another person's? We get very little detail about their relationship. Is the way Kalinda talks to Peebee after the break up a sign of how it was during the relationship or Kalinda acting out because she feels hurt and abandoned, and she wants some type of emotional reaction from Peebee instead of indifference? You are making several assumptions, and using your own experiences, knowledge and bias to fill in what isn't known. We all do it to some extent, I always try and catch my self and look at everything objectively. I get that is a RP game, and I don't have a problem with people killing virtual characters. I just find it interesting what others do to justify murder, or even avoid calling it an act of murder in this case. The fact that someone can reconile when murder is acceptable should be a bit distressing, at least own up to it and admit killing Kalinda to be what it is..an act of murder. I get there are instances were there is no right choice, but the option to kill Kalinda isn't one of them. Just look at the results if you don't kill her. She shows up to HELP, but no that isn't a factor because at some future time she MIGHT try and kill Peebee or Ryder. Killing Peebee was never Kalinda's goal. Beating Peebee to Rem-tech was her goal and her attempt to get Peebee's attention and an emotional reaction. You only think you are looking at things objectively but you aren't because if you were you'd realise a few things: One: Kalinda broke up with Peebee, she has no reason to feel hurt and abandoned and to act out. This is a mistaken assumption on your part. Two: It is your opinion that killing Kalinda is not the correct choice and that opinion you have is based on knowing the outcome of that decision. When your Ryder first makes that decision you have no idea of how it will turn out. You still don't because Kalinda could decide to go right back to trying to kill Ryder in MEA2 or in some DLC. Ryder has a split second to make a decision and without meta-gaming, it is impossible for Ryder to know the outcome. In that split second there is no right or wrong choice because Ryder has no idea that she'll show up to help later or even that Kalinda won't try to kill them again as soon as she has been rescued. Three: Kalinda hired Mercenaries to go after the Rem Tech that Peebee had discovered and hired Mercs to attack Peebee & Ryder on sight. Kalinda knew that Peebee would follow her, she hired people who kill for pay, knowing that Peebee could be killed by them. Kalinda's actions are a threat to Peebee's life. Four: You contradicting yourself by saying that you have no problem with people killing virtual characters but saying you find it distressing when people do. You can't have no problem with an action and find it distressing at the same time because if you find an action distressing then you do have a problem with it. You want Kalinda and Peebee's relationship to be merely rocky so you can judge people who decide to murder her because you've decided that there is no reason to do so. Only the meta-game can lead you to that conclusion, not the roleplay.
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mikaelnovasun
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 27, 2017 14:53:44 GMT
Really? So your definition of a cruel break up is the same as Peebee's or mine or another person's? We get very little detail about their relationship. Is the way Kalinda talks to Peebee after the break up a sign of how it was during the relationship or Kalinda acting out because she feels hurt and abandoned, and she wants some type of emotional reaction from Peebee instead of indifference? You are making several assumptions, and using your own experiences, knowledge and bias to fill in what isn't known. We all do it to some extent, I always try and catch my self and look at everything objectively. I get that is a RP game, and I don't have a problem with people killing virtual characters. I just find it interesting what others do to justify murder, or even avoid calling it an act of murder in this case. The fact that someone can reconile when murder is acceptable should be a bit distressing, at least own up to it and admit killing Kalinda to be what it is..an act of murder. I get there are instances were there is no right choice, but the option to kill Kalinda isn't one of them. Just look at the results if you don't kill her. She shows up to HELP, but no that isn't a factor because at some future time she MIGHT try and kill Peebee or Ryder. Killing Peebee was never Kalinda's goal. Beating Peebee to Rem-tech was her goal and her attempt to get Peebee's attention and an emotional reaction. You only think you are looking at things objectively but you aren't because if you were you'd realise a few things: One: Kalinda broke up with Peebee, she has no reason to feel hurt and abandoned and to act out. This is a mistaken assumption on your part. Two: It is your opinion that killing Kalinda is not the correct choice and that opinion you have is based on knowing the outcome of that decision. When your Ryder first makes that decision you have no idea of how it will turn out. You still don't because Kalinda could decide to go right back to trying to kill Ryder in MEA2 or in some DLC. Ryder has a split second to make a decision and without meta-gaming, it is impossible for Ryder to know the outcome. In that split second there is no right or wrong choice because Ryder has no idea that she'll show up to help later or even that Kalinda won't try to kill them again as soon as she has been rescued. Three: Kalinda hired Mercenaries to go after the Rem Tech that Peebee had discovered and hired Mercs to attack Peebee & Ryder on sight. Kalinda knew that Peebee would follow her, she hired people who kill for pay, knowing that Peebee could be killed by them. Kalinda's actions are a threat to Peebee's life. Four: You contradicting yourself by saying that you have no problem with people killing virtual characters but saying you find it distressing when people do. You can't have no problem with an action and find it distressing at the same time because if you find an action distressing then you do have a problem with it. You want Kalinda and Peebee's relationship to be merely rocky so you can judge people who decide to murder her because you've decided that there is no reason to do so. Only the meta-game can lead you to that conclusion, not the roleplay. Really no reason? She likely thought Peebee would come back. She had at least twice before. We know very little about Kalinda's motivation. And I am not so much making assumptions as pointing out other possible motivations and events to the ones you are presenting. The person that knows Kalinda best is Peebee, and at the time of Kalinda hanging from the ledge Peebee is the best person to decide whether to save Kalinda or let her fall. As for using meta knowledge, I don't use it for making my choice at the moment even in my replays. I am using it to highlight how people are misjudging Kalinda. Here is what I base my choice off every time I play through the loyalty mission. Is Kalinda an immediate threat? No. Is it safe to take the shot? No, might hit Peebee. As to my last point I get it is a game and you won't miss but firing in the direction of a friendly on a platform that "could" move at anytime is beyond reckless, also Scott and Sara both have had firearm training. As part of their training they would have gone over friendly fire situations, and if you don't pass muster, have fun with a non-combat assignment. So from an RP standpoint the twins should know better than to fire. As for contradicting myself. It could be taken that way. But then you have people saying in real life they would not convict someone of murder if they were the jury for a similar case. So I hope you can see my concern when people move it beyond the realm of fiction.
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Post by izut on Apr 27, 2017 15:11:01 GMT
I didn't kill Kalinda, because Peebee asked me not to. Not saying that I don't think that Kalinda deserves to die for all she's put Peebee through, the stunts she pulls in MEA and how casually she disregards the lives of her own lackeys. But if she was going to die, then I think it really falls down to Peebee to make that decision. Why should Ryder get to make that decision for her? It's not a life or death situation where shooting Kalinda is necessary to protect Peebee from imminent danger or because Kalinda is threatening her in any way? Instead Ryder's shooting her in the back, right after Peebee told us to save her, under the rationale that it's to protect Peebee from something Kalinda might do in the future. Again, Kalinda would definitely have it coming, but I don't think the scenario justifies us being the one to take her out. Ultimately I think it depends on whether she sticks to her new leaf or slips back to her old ways again. In the latter case, I definitely wouldn't give her a second chance, especially if she does something to hurt Peebee again. And if in the long-run it turns out that mercy wasn't the best option, I'll probably concede that taking her out earlier was the better outcome. (Incidentally, I did let Drack drop Aroane to his death. I figured that since Drack was the one holding him over the ledge and it was his people that were threatened, this was his call to make. Pity that Spender didn't receive half as bad a punishment, despite being the ringleader) Funny thing is, with the stunt she made by ordering her goons to kill us, going with her race (Asari are powerful biotics), you can see the situation as a set up to kill PB. She could've saved herself with biotics, she chose not to so you can see it as one of her games and shooting her is protecting PB from death or at least ending up badly, baaaadly injured and scarred for the rest of her life.
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phantomrachie
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: phantomrachie
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Post by phantomrachie on Apr 27, 2017 15:12:50 GMT
You only think you are looking at things objectively but you aren't because if you were you'd realise a few things: One: Kalinda broke up with Peebee, she has no reason to feel hurt and abandoned and to act out. This is a mistaken assumption on your part. Two: It is your opinion that killing Kalinda is not the correct choice and that opinion you have is based on knowing the outcome of that decision. When your Ryder first makes that decision you have no idea of how it will turn out. You still don't because Kalinda could decide to go right back to trying to kill Ryder in MEA2 or in some DLC. Ryder has a split second to make a decision and without meta-gaming, it is impossible for Ryder to know the outcome. In that split second there is no right or wrong choice because Ryder has no idea that she'll show up to help later or even that Kalinda won't try to kill them again as soon as she has been rescued. Three: Kalinda hired Mercenaries to go after the Rem Tech that Peebee had discovered and hired Mercs to attack Peebee & Ryder on sight. Kalinda knew that Peebee would follow her, she hired people who kill for pay, knowing that Peebee could be killed by them. Kalinda's actions are a threat to Peebee's life. Four: You contradicting yourself by saying that you have no problem with people killing virtual characters but saying you find it distressing when people do. You can't have no problem with an action and find it distressing at the same time because if you find an action distressing then you do have a problem with it. You want Kalinda and Peebee's relationship to be merely rocky so you can judge people who decide to murder her because you've decided that there is no reason to do so. Only the meta-game can lead you to that conclusion, not the roleplay. Really no reason? She likely thought Peebee would come back. She had at least twice before. We know very little about Kalinda's motivation. And I am not so much making assumptions as pointing out other possible motivations and events to the ones you are presenting. The person that knows Kalinda best is Peebee, and at the time of Kalinda hanging from the ledge Peebee is the best person to decide whether to save Kalinda or let her fall. As for using meta knowledge, I don't use it for making my choice at the moment even in my replays. I am using it to highlight how people are misjudging Kalinda. Here is what I base my choice off every time I play through the loyalty mission. Is Kalinda an immediate threat? No. Is it safe to take the shot? No, might hit Peebee. As to my last point I get it is a game and you won't miss but firing in the direction of a friendly on a platform that "could" move at anytime is beyond reckless, also Scott and Sara both have had firearm training. As part of their training they would have gone over friendly fire situations, and if you don't pass muster, have fun with a non-combat assignment. So from an RP standpoint the twins should know better than to fire. As for contradicting myself. It could be taken that way. But then you have people saying in real life they would not convict someone of murder if they were the jury for a similar case. So I hope you can see my concern when people move it beyond the realm of fiction. She has no reason. Peebee never went back to Kalinda. Kalinda went back to her. This is a significant difference. Kalinda would leave Peebee and then expect her to remain available when she turned back up again. You are stretching to make their relationship fit your narrative and I'm beginning to think that you weren't paying attention to Peebee & Kalinda's relationship because you've made some assumptions & character judgments based on incorrect information. Peebee doesn't know Kalinda, she says so herself. During her loyalty mission, you can ask her if she knew about Kalinda being a Merc and she says she had no idea, would never have expected it and realises that she never really knew Kalinda. If you save Kalinda Peebee is shocked that Kalinda is helping out and wonders how long it will last. Another character judgement you've made with incorrect information. That is your RP that is fine, but your attitude comes across like you are judging people for having a different RP than you like you think that they are rping wrong. I mean with that attitude half the decisions Shep makes are the "wrong ones" because they are reckless for a trained soldier. You're concerned that people will take it outside of the realm of fiction? If you are you don't come across that way, you come across like a person who has decided the correct way of doing something and has decided to judge others for the decisions they make in a game. I mean I've stuck strictly to the world of fiction and just that has "distressed" you.
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