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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 30, 2016 21:02:44 GMT
Another thing to take note of is that if you had the option to choose both Sara and Scott's personality, you'd have to do a lot of extra work to account for all the variations.
You'd probably gain more roleplaying value through more, deeper dialogue.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 30, 2016 21:04:15 GMT
I don't think it'll have such a deep effect that you can't roleplay an expressive or stoic sibling, different from the preset situation (which I think it'll affect mostly the autodialgoue), but I guess we'll have to wait and see. So at best we have a bipolar Ryder, whose autodialogue goes against the dialogue we choose. Great. One of them functions as an NPC if you pick the other. They need to be somewhat predefined for them to be believable characters. As a NPC, that's fine. But they are going to be predefined even when they are the player character according to the devs. Reading the tweets, Sara is definitely the sarcastic asshole (Fryda be nicer. Be. Nicer) Guess I'm stuck with just Scott then. It's not different from Shepard in ME3. I'm not expecting a better situation in a Mass effect game until Bioware proves me wrong. I don't think her tweets necessarily means she's more sarcastic as a default, though so far she seems to be more expressive.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 21:06:55 GMT
I don't think it'll have such a deep effect that you can't roleplay an expressive or stoic sibling, different from the preset situation (which I think it'll affect mostly the autodialgoue), but I guess we'll have to wait and see. So at best we have a bipolar Ryder, whose autodialogue goes against the dialogue we choose. Great. One of them functions as an NPC if you pick the other. They need to be somewhat predefined for them to be believable characters. As a NPC, that's fine. But they are going to be predefined even when they are the player character according to the devs. Reading the tweets, Sara is definitely the sarcastic asshole (Fryda be nicer. Be. Nicer) Guess I'm stuck with just Scott then. I'm sure that they are going to do the thing that they did with Hawke where the autodialogue is based on the trends of how you've been playing the game. Sure there might be an interaction here and there that doesn't jive with how a particular player is playing their character, but I'm sure that the PC will be able to be played in a customizable way where the player gets to set the tone. The NPC will have to have a preset personality.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 30, 2016 21:07:43 GMT
Another thing to take note of is that if you had the option to choose both Sara and Scott's personality, you'd have to do a lot of extra work to account for all the variations. You'd probably gain more roleplaying value through more, deeper dialogue. It would be no more work than they have done in all the previous games with voiced protagonists. No, you'd gain more roleplaying value by being able to roleplay your character with the personality you want to.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 30, 2016 21:13:05 GMT
Another thing to take note of is that if you had the option to choose both Sara and Scott's personality, you'd have to do a lot of extra work to account for all the variations. You'd probably gain more roleplaying value through more, deeper dialogue. It would be no more work than they have done in all the previous games with voiced protagonists. No, you'd gain more roleplaying value by being able to roleplay your character with the personality you want to. It's literally going to be minor variations to the way they express the various dialogue and autodialogue tones, both of which being almost always out of your control to begin with.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 30, 2016 21:15:15 GMT
So at best we have a bipolar Ryder, whose autodialogue goes against the dialogue we choose. Great. As a NPC, that's fine. But they are going to be predefined even when they are the player character according to the devs. Guess I'm stuck with just Scott then. It's not different from Shepard in ME3. I'm not expecting a better situation in a Mass effect game until Bioware proves me wrong. I don't think her tweets necessarily means she's more sarcastic as a default, though so far she seems to be more expressive. I'm sure that they are going to do the thing that they did with Hawke where the autodialogue is based on the trends of how you've been playing the game. Sure there might be an interaction here and there that doesn't jive with how a particular player is playing their character, but I'm sure that the PC will be able to be played in a customizable way where the player gets to set the tone. The NPC will have to have a preset personality. *sees comparisons to ME3 Shepard and Hawke* It would be no more work than they have done in all the previous games with voiced protagonists. No, you'd gain more roleplaying value by being able to roleplay your character with the personality you want to. It's literally going to be the autodialogue and minor variations to the way they express the various dialogue choices, both of which being almost always out of your control. The only exception is Hawke's variation in autodialogue given what tone he uses the most, but I distinctly remember a lot of outrage from that, not that I particularly found it bad. And that is bad. And no, not always. You had control of it in Inquisition.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 30, 2016 21:17:28 GMT
It's literally going to be the autodialogue and minor variations to the way they express the various dialogue choices, both of which being almost always out of your control. The only exception is Hawke's variation in autodialogue given what tone he uses the most, but I distinctly remember a lot of outrage from that, not that I particularly found it bad. And that is bad. And no, not always. You had control of it in Inquisition. No... no you didn't. You had choice of tone of response which remains, but the Inquisitor was a blank slate personality so the dialogue itself does not vary. Shepard for example was always stoic, with almost no variation in the tone of each dialogue choice. Now you have two different responses for the same dialogue tone choice depending if you're Scott or Sara. How is that worse?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 30, 2016 21:20:09 GMT
And that is bad. And no, not always. You had control of it in Inquisition. No... no you didn't. You had choice of tone of response which remains. The dialogue itself does not vary. Now you have two different settings due to slightly different personalities. No we don't. You got to choose the personality and emotion you expressed in Inquisition. You have no such options with MEA. The four options in the dialogue wheel we were already told are : Head, Heart, Professional, Casual. None of those let you express personality or emotion other than the one they choose for you. Now you have two different responses for the same dialogue tone choice depending if you're Scott or Sara. How is that worse? It's worse because it is restricted to one sibling. If you want to be Scott but react as Sarah doesor be Sarah but react as Scott does, you are out of luck.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 21:23:31 GMT
I actually hope I don't have to play with a set personality... I want to create my character the way I want. Like they did with Hawke. In DA2 you could choose to play either nice, sarcastic or rude. And I'd want to be sarcastic...and Scott. : /
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 30, 2016 21:30:19 GMT
It's not different from Shepard in ME3. I'm not expecting a better situation in a Mass effect game until Bioware proves me wrong. I don't think her tweets necessarily means she's more sarcastic as a default, though so far she seems to be more expressive. I'm sure that they are going to do the thing that they did with Hawke where the autodialogue is based on the trends of how you've been playing the game. Sure there might be an interaction here and there that doesn't jive with how a particular player is playing their character, but I'm sure that the PC will be able to be played in a customizable way where the player gets to set the tone. The NPC will have to have a preset personality. *sees comparisons to ME3 Shepard and Hawke* For me it's nor a comparison with Shepard. It's that after ME3 I won't expect something better in regards of the dialogue/auto dialogue problem in a Mass Effect game, until they prove it in a game. So I'm not expecting it to be better, even if it was in Inquisition (in terms of autodialogue).
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Post by Sifr on Dec 30, 2016 21:40:05 GMT
Shepard for example was always stoic, with almost no variation in the tone of each dialogue choice. Shepard did get less stoic in ME2 and ME3, with more humour to contrast with the darker tone. Which was good, because it allowed Hale and Meer to be funny, which they are great at.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 30, 2016 21:41:04 GMT
No... no you didn't. You had choice of tone of response which remains. The dialogue itself does not vary. Now you have two different settings due to slightly different personalities. No we don't. You got to choose the personality and emotion you expressed in Inquisition. You have no such options with MEA. The four options in the dialogue wheel we were already told are : Head, Heart, Professional, Casual. None of those let you express personality or emotion other than the one they choose for you. Now you have two different responses for the same dialogue tone choice depending if you're Scott or Sara. How is that worse? It's worse because it is restricted to one sibling. If you want to be Scott but react as Sarah doesor be Sarah but react as Scott does, you are out of luck. You chose tones which expressed a particular emotion and through your choices and tone you'd form a personality. All that remains, but this time you have two different dialogues depending on the character you play. Think of it this way. It didn't matter what race or gender you played. With the exception of background-related matters, every dialogue was exactly the same. Now you have two different variations. It's not even different from Shepard. Mark Meer had a different form of expression than Jennifer Hale. So now you have two different delivery styles, with the dialogue actually changing somewhat to reflect that delivery. Again I ask you, how is that not an improvement?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 30, 2016 21:45:08 GMT
No we don't. You got to choose the personality and emotion you expressed in Inquisition. You have no such options with MEA. The four options in the dialogue wheel we were already told are : Head, Heart, Professional, Casual. None of those let you express personality or emotion other than the one they choose for you. It's worse because it is restricted to one sibling. If you want to be Scott but react as Sarah doesor be Sarah but react as Scott does, you are out of luck. You chose tones which expressed a particular emotion and through your choices and tone you'd form a personality. All that remains, but this time you have two different dialogues depending on the character you play. Think of it this way. It didn't matter what race or gender you played. With the exception of background-related matters, every dialogue was exactly the same. Now you have two different variations. It's not even different from Shepard. Mark Meer had a different form of expression than Jennifer Hale. So now you have two different delivery styles, with the dialogue actually changing somewhat to reflect that delivery. Again I ask you, how is that not an improvement? And that's the problem. There shouldn't be exclusive variations. They should be options for both Scott and Sarah. Shepard is among my least favorite Bioware protagonists after what Bioware did with assuming things about them and making them more predefined, so not a good example if you are trying to win me over to seeing this as a good idea. Because it restricts roleplaying. Something that does that in a RPG is the exact opposite of an improvement.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 21:46:24 GMT
You chose tones which expressed a particular emotion and through your choices and tone you'd form a personality. All that remains, but this time you have two different dialogues depending on the character you play. Think of it this way. It didn't matter what race or gender you played. With the exception of background-related matters, every dialogue was exactly the same. Now you have two different variations. It's not even different from Shepard. Mark Meer had a different form of expression than Jennifer Hale. So now you have two different delivery styles, with the dialogue actually changing somewhat to reflect that delivery. Again I ask you, how is that not an improvement? And that's the problem. There shouldn't be exclusive variations. They should be options for both Scott and Sarah. Shepard is among my least favorite Bioware protagonists after what Bioware did with assuming things about them and making them more predefined, so not a good example if you are trying to win me over to seeing this as a good idea. Because it restricts roleplaying. Something that does that in a RPG is the exact opposite of an improvement. this.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 30, 2016 21:46:55 GMT
For me it's nor a comparison with Shepard. It's that after ME3 I won't expect something better in regards of the dialogue/auto dialogue problem in a Mass Effect game, until they prove it in a game. So I'm not expecting it to be better, even if it was in Inquisition (in terms of autodialogue). Yeah, I really need to stop overestimating the Mass Effect team when it comes to protagonists.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 21:47:48 GMT
I always liked sarcastic Hawke more than Shepard...knowing that I can't act the way I want because I play as the wrong gender is a terrible feeling.
It's even more terrible than to not have this option at all, because I know I could have it if I'd play as Sara.... It seems as if they absolutely want us to play with both characters. But some players do not want that. Even though I'll play as Sara at some point, my main character is Scott. And I want to be able to play Scott in the same way as I could with Sara.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 30, 2016 21:53:07 GMT
Except no PC RPG game in history had something other than a predefined set of dialogue, with variation typically dependent on lore and background choices. This is because they're all programmed into the game. They are by nature restricted. If you add to how the variations occur, you're not making them more restricted all of a sudden.
K think of it this way.
If Sara and Scott were two different races, would you have an issue with them having variations in their dialogue depending on their background?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 30, 2016 22:00:27 GMT
Except no PC RPG game in history had something other than a predefined set of dialogue, with variation typically dependent on lore and background choices. This is because they're all programmed into the game. They are by nature restricted. K think of it this way. If Sara and Scott were two different races, would you have an issue with them having variations in their dialogue depending on their background? And because of that, they should at least make it as open as possible rather than placing unnecessary restrictions. That is not a valid comparison. First, as you note the background is completely different as well as them not even being the same species where the Ryder siblings are twins who were both trained for this mission thus have the same background. Second, even with the separate background I would not want mutually exclusive personalities. If we could play as say an Asari and a Turian, I wouldn't want a diplomatic personality locked to the Asari and a militaristic personality locked to the Turian.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 30, 2016 22:00:30 GMT
I always liked sarcastic Hawke more than Shepard...knowing that I can't act the way I want because I play as the wrong gender is a terrible feeling. Do we know that Scott isn't sarcastic? It could be that Sara's sarcasm only comes off as the most pronounced? With Sarcastic Hawke in DA2, I often noticed that Nicholas Boulton's delivery of the sarcastic lines was far more overtly silly than Jo Wyatt's, who opted for a more dry wit. Both were equally funny, but played the humour slightly differently and made each gender seem more distinct.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 22:04:35 GMT
I always liked sarcastic Hawke more than Shepard...knowing that I can't act the way I want because I play as the wrong gender is a terrible feeling. Do we know that Scott isn't sarcastic? It could be that Sara's sarcasm only comes off as the most pronounced? With Sarcastic Hawke in DA2, I often noticed that Nicholas Boulton's delivery of the sarcastic lines was far more overtly silly than Jo Wyatt's, who opted for a more dry wit. Both were equally funny, but played the humour slightly differently and made each gender seem more distinct. This is what I suspect. I think that both will be able to be both ways. They will have different default settings as NPCs and perhaps the delivery will be different. But I don't think that they have written different lines exclusive to the two different characters. I think that both will have access to both, just in different ways.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 30, 2016 22:05:26 GMT
That is not a valid comparison. First, as you note the background is completely different as well as them not even being the same species where the Ryder siblings are twins who were both trained for this mission thus have the same background. Second, even with the separate background I would not want mutually exclusive personalities. If we could play as say an Asari and a Turian, I wouldn't want a diplomatic personality locked to the Asari and a militaristic personality locked to the Turian. Yes it is. They're two distinct characters. This is not male or female Shepard or Hawke where only one exists at any given time. They are twins, not clones. They are two distinct characters, therefore they are two characters with different backgrounds. You are assuming they were stuck in the hip since birth, had the exact same experiences, have the same exact personalities, and had the same relationships with other people. Tell me now, how that is in any way sensible design? They are functionally two different entities, like two different races. The analogy holds. So once again I ask you, if they were two characters with different backgrounds, would you have an issue with them having variation in dialogue?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 30, 2016 22:06:34 GMT
I always liked sarcastic Hawke more than Shepard...knowing that I can't act the way I want because I play as the wrong gender is a terrible feeling. Do we know that Scott isn't sarcastic? It could be that Sara's sarcasm only comes off as the most pronounced? With Sarcastic Hawke in DA2, I often noticed that Nicholas Boulton's delivery of the sarcastic lines was far more overtly silly than Jo Wyatt's, who opted for a more dry wit. Both were equally funny, but played the humour slightly differently and made each gender seem more distinct. I think, this is just an idea, we don't know anything about it. (At least me...)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 22:07:49 GMT
Do we know that Scott isn't sarcastic? It could be that Sara's sarcasm only comes off as the most pronounced? With Sarcastic Hawke in DA2, I often noticed that Nicholas Boulton's delivery of the sarcastic lines was far more overtly silly than Jo Wyatt's, who opted for a more dry wit. Both were equally funny, but played the humour slightly differently and made each gender seem more distinct. This is what I suspect. I think that both will be able to be both ways. They will have different default settings as NPCs and perhaps the delivery will be different. But I don't think that they have written different lines exclusive to the two different characters. I think that both will have access to both, just in different ways. I hope you're right. They can be different as NPC's. I have no problem with it. But I don't want restrictions based on the gender I play.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 22:09:16 GMT
I really hope they will not be predefined, as I want my Scott to be mostly renegade/sarcastic P.S. WTH just happened to this thread? It's so ''alive'' now..
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 30, 2016 22:10:08 GMT
They are not restrictions, because they are two distinct characters with different backgrounds and experiences. They are predefined in the same way that a Qunari is different from a Human.
You guys are making a false equivalence with other games. These are twins, not clones.
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