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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 20, 2018 10:23:56 GMT
Whoope-de-do! More Mary Sue arguments! Just what this thread needs! Thats so 2017. And the year before that. It isn't anything new. I know, I'm just sick of it. Especially when the same people have the same bloody arguments over and over again.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 20, 2018 17:01:20 GMT
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 20, 2018 17:19:54 GMT
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PSN: rohlfdawg83
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Post by heathenoxman on Jan 20, 2018 17:30:01 GMT
Rey isn't a Mary Sue. It's become trendy to label any character that doesn't have a crippling flaw as a "Sue." She's "generic plucky heroine #45,789. When I first watched the original trilogy, I was already familiar with the "hero's journey," and subsequent sci-fi and fantasy tropes. Luke was just "generic plucky hero #56,879." He was the guy little boys could imagine themselves being. I'm sure he gets fleshed-out in the EU, but I always cared for Han Solo more than Luke. Rey's not a Sue, she's just a vehicle to sell action figures. She's pure wank. An expert combatant from only fighting lowly scavengers on a backwater planet, knows and flies the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo and Chewbacca who are mystified by her, entrusted with the series' legacy weapon by Maz just because, can resist a trained force user's mind probe, and use the mind trick on sentient beings with no prior training despite Anakin Skywalker struggling to use it on non sentient beasts during his training. Is an adept lightsaber fencer with no prior training, and despite her being a stranger she receives a consoling hug from Leia after Han's death leaving Chewbacca a decades old friend out in the cold. All of this after Rey just learned that Luke Skywalker, and the force were real and not myths a few days prior. Then there's Rey easily besting Luke a legendary veteran warrior in a melee scrap, clearly attacked him in rage but the subject is never brought up while Yoda of all people is enraptured by her, and later she was theorized by Snoke to be a manifestation of the force's attempt to create balance against Kylo, potentially ramping up her snowflake status despite her parentage. Her character's only noteable flaws were her wrongly tapping into the darkside of the force, and her denial about her parents which didn't hamper her character. When only comparing their respective film trilogies, Anakin and Luke who are supposed to be freaks of nature looked pedestrian by comparison in their struggles. All the EU can do for Rey's character at this point is display how she learned wookie and droidspeak, how she became a bostaff master, where she learned how to swim, and knows how to pilot the Falcon (assymetrical cockpit) so well without any prior experience. JJ and Rian screwed Rey's character over on the force side of things, unless everyone just accepts the fact that she's only a vehicle through which the force does awesome stuff, but that only robs her character of agency. Oh, I didn't say she was a particularly good character, just not a Sue. Looking at Rey with my "little girl brain," I think she's awesomesauce, but that's because little girls don't know any better. My adult brain has a different opinion.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2018 17:35:39 GMT
Indeed. I don't know, what is it this week that is ruining Star Wars? Is it the alt-right? Is it toxic masculinity? Is it the fans? Is it the haters? Is it hackers? Not pretty enough protagonists? Our own pre-conceptions? Communism? Whatever it takes to deflect the truth: it was a very mediocre film with two decent scenes which don't make up for the very long and tone-deaf disaster Rian gave us. Self-delusion is one HELLUVA drug... You sure the self-delusion isn't on your side? Must be a mass delusion
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2018 17:37:08 GMT
She's pure wank. An expert combatant from only fighting lowly scavengers on a backwater planet, knows and flies the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo and Chewbacca who are mystified by her, entrusted with the series' legacy weapon by Maz just because, can resist a trained force user's mind probe, and use the mind trick on sentient beings with no prior training despite Anakin Skywalker struggling to use it on non sentient beasts during his training. Is an adept lightsaber fencer with no prior training, and despite her being a stranger she receives a consoling hug from Leia after Han's death leaving Chewbacca a decades old friend out in the cold. All of this after Rey just learned that Luke Skywalker, and the force were real and not myths a few days prior. Then there's Rey easily besting Luke a legendary veteran warrior in a melee scrap, clearly attacked him in rage but the subject is never brought up while Yoda of all people is enraptured by her, and later she was theorized by Snoke to be a manifestation of the force's attempt to create balance against Kylo, potentially ramping up her snowflake status despite her parentage. Her character's only noteable flaws were her wrongly tapping into the darkside of the force, and her denial about her parents which didn't hamper her character. When only comparing their respective film trilogies, Anakin and Luke who are supposed to be freaks of nature looked pedestrian by comparison in their struggles. All the EU can do for Rey's character at this point is display how she learned wookie and droidspeak, how she became a bostaff master, where she learned how to swim, and knows how to pilot the Falcon (assymetrical cockpit) so well without any prior experience. JJ and Rian screwed Rey's character over on the force side of things, unless everyone just accepts the fact that she's only a vehicle through which the force does awesome stuff, but that only robs her character of agency. Oh, I didn't say she was a particularly good character, just not a Sue. Looking at Rey with my "little girl brain," I think she's awesomesauce, but that's because little girls don't know any better. My adult brain has a different opinion. I could tolerate building up Rey so much if they didn't equally tear down Luke, who actually had to work for and suffer to become the hero he was.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 20, 2018 17:39:05 GMT
She's pure wank. An expert combatant from only fighting lowly scavengers on a backwater planet, knows and flies the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo and Chewbacca who are mystified by her receives ... Oh, I didn't say she was a particularly good character, just not a Sue.Looking at Rey with my "little girl brain," I think she's awesomesauce, but that's because little girls don't know any better. My adult brain has a different opinion.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 20, 2018 17:53:21 GMT
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 20, 2018 18:05:38 GMT
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 20, 2018 18:12:00 GMT
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 20, 2018 18:22:32 GMT
It's weird that Jyn Erso can be written as a nuanced female protagonist with grounded flaws and reasonable positive qualities, but that Rey can't.
After all, Disney funded both films so surely they can see that no one is calling Rogue One's female lead a Mary Sue; why not make Rey more like her?
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 20, 2018 18:42:31 GMT
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Post by smilesja on Jan 20, 2018 19:07:26 GMT
It's weird that Jyn Erso can be written as a nuanced female protagonist with grounded flaws and reasonable positive qualities, but that Rey can't. After all, Disney funded both films so surely they can see that no one is calling Rogue One's female lead a Mary Sue; why not make Rey more like her? I personally found Jyn bland and felt that Cassian should’ve been the main character. But she was better written than Rey so far.
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Post by river82 on Jan 20, 2018 19:15:56 GMT
It's weird that Jyn Erso can be written as a nuanced female protagonist with grounded flaws and reasonable positive qualities, but that Rey can't. After all, Disney funded both films so surely they can see that no one is calling Rogue One's female lead a Mary Sue; why not make Rey more like her? Because Jyn was never going to be a bigger than life, bad arse hero. Rather Jyn was the main character of a darker, grittier movie where the main characters were all destined to die. The humanness of the main character helps audiences connect to them and ups the emotion ... something George could have learnt from when writing Anakin as Space Jesus in Phantom Menace.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: rohlfdawg
PSN: rohlfdawg83
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Post by heathenoxman on Jan 20, 2018 19:20:01 GMT
Oh, I didn't say she was a particularly good character, just not a Sue. Looking at Rey with my "little girl brain," I think she's awesomesauce, but that's because little girls don't know any better. My adult brain has a different opinion. I could tolerate building up Rey so much if they didn't equally tear down Luke, who actually had to work for and suffer to become the hero he was. Yeah, from what I'm hearing, they pretty much shafted Luke, which I can understand why many of the fans of the OT would take exception to that.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 20, 2018 19:20:47 GMT
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Post by decafhigh on Jan 20, 2018 19:21:00 GMT
It's weird that Jyn Erso can be written as a nuanced female protagonist with grounded flaws and reasonable positive qualities, but that Rey can't. After all, Disney funded both films so surely they can see that no one is calling Rogue One's female lead a Mary Sue; why not make Rey more like her? I personally found Jyn bland and felt that Cassian should’ve been the main character. But she was better written than Rey so far. I liked Jyn, and Rogue One. It was a far far better movie than either TFA or TLJ. I do agree that Rey is a Mary Sue, but that isn't particularly new in Star Wars. Luke was as well in the originals, spends all of a few days training with Obi-wan and maybe a few weeks with Yoda? Maybe outside the movies that is expanded on more, I dunno, but he basically had almost no training and goes on to be "the most powerful Jedi ever". Sure it was still more than Rey's no training at all but considering becoming a Jedi is something that is supposed to take your entire childhood and adolescence to achieve they are both squarely in Mary Sue'ville. Personally I've found both TFA and TLJ at best to be bland with incredibly predictable plots and bad acting all around. TLJ in particular felt like it was just a patchwork of scenes meant to be "Star Wars-esque" with a few outright ridiculous moments like space flying Leia. All in all they have just been bad, maybe for younger folks or people that never got into the original movies its cool to them, but for me they haven't had that same sense of wonder or adventure the original movies had.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 20, 2018 19:24:13 GMT
It's weird that Jyn Erso can be written as a nuanced female protagonist with grounded flaws and reasonable positive qualities, but that Rey can't. After all, Disney funded both films so surely they can see that no one is calling Rogue One's female lead a Mary Sue; why not make Rey more like her? Because Jyn was never going to be a bigger than life, bad arse hero. Rather Jyn was the main character of a darker, grittier movie where the main characters were all destined to die. The humanness of the main character helps audiences connect to them and ups the emotion ... something George could have learnt from when writing Anakin as Space Jesus in Phantom Menace. It’s a good thing George Lucas did not forget to add humanity with Anakin then. We have yet to see that so far with Rey.
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Post by river82 on Jan 20, 2018 19:27:09 GMT
It’s a good thing George Lucas did not forget to add humanity with Anakin then. We have yet to see that so far with Rey. By then it was too late. Not many care when perfection falls, because it's hard to relate. A lot of people take smug satisfaction in it IRL, actually. More people would have cared if a vulnerable, flawed human fell but it wasn't to be. Obi-Wan was the real protagonist anyway
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2018 19:32:08 GMT
I personally found Jyn bland and felt that Cassian should’ve been the main character. But she was better written than Rey so far. I liked Jyn, and Rogue One. It was a far far better movie than either TFA or TLJ. I do agree that Rey is a Mary Sue, but that isn't particularly new in Star Wars. Luke was as well in the originals, spends all of a few days training with Obi-wan and maybe a few weeks with Yoda? Maybe outside the movies that is expanded on more, I dunno, but he basically had almost no training and goes on to be "the most powerful Jedi ever". Sure it was still more than Rey's no training at all but considering becoming a Jedi is something that is supposed to take your entire childhood and adolescence to achieve they are both squarely in Mary Sue'ville. Personally I've found both TFA and TLJ at best to be bland with incredibly predictable plots and bad acting all around. TLJ in particular felt like it was just a patchwork of scenes meant to be "Star Wars-esque" with a few outright ridiculous moments like space flying Leia. All in all they have just been bad, maybe for younger folks or people that never got into the original movies its cool to them, but for me they haven't had that same sense of wonder or adventure the original movies had. I will point out that Luke was pretty much carried through A New Hope by Obi-Wan and Han Solo, needing to be rescued several times by them. And the two times he uses the Force it was so subtle than Han was able to pass it off as "luck" Granted Luke's training by Yoda was brief, covering only a few weeks or months (it's never made clear) but it WAS shown to be intense. And when it came to facing Vader, he still got his *ss handed to him, losing his lightsaber and his hand. In fact, he had to be rescued AGAIN, this time by Leia, go get out of that alive. (I recall showing that movie to one of my nephews, who was maybe five at the time, and he sagely noted "He went to rescue his friends, but they had to rescue him instead) So while yes, Luke is something of a prodigy, I wouldn't put him into Mary Sue-ville, given his flaws (overly idealistic, and headstrong to the point of recklessness) regularly puts him into situations he can't handle. It's only in the third movie where his talents seem to catch up to his idealism. And even then it's a pretty near thing.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 20, 2018 19:33:48 GMT
I personally found Jyn bland... I liked Jyn, and Rogue One. It was a far far better movie than either TFA or TLJ. I do agree that Rey is a Mary Sue, but that isn't particularly new in Star Wars. Luke was as well in the originals, spends all of a few days training with Obi-wan and maybe a few weeks with Yoda? Maybe outside the movies that is expanded on more, I dunno, but he basically had almost no training and goes on to be "the most powerful Jedi ever". Sure it was still more than Rey's no training at all but considering becoming a Jedi is something that is supposed to take your entire childhood and adolescence to achieve they are both squarely in Mary Sue'ville. Personally I've found both TFA and TLJ at best to be bland with incredibly predictable plots and bad acting all around. TLJ in particular felt like it was just a patchwork of scenes meant to be "Star Wars-esque" with a few outright ridiculous moments like space flying Leia. All in all they have just been bad, maybe for younger folks or people that never got into the original movies its cool to them, but for me they haven't had that same sense of wonder or adventure the original movies had.Agreed on all these points
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Post by smilesja on Jan 20, 2018 19:37:32 GMT
It’s a good thing George Lucas did not forget to add humanity with Anakin then. We have yet to see that so far with Rey. By then it was too late. Not many care when perfection falls, because it's hard to relate. A lot of people take smug satisfaction in it IRL, actually. More people would have cared if a vulnerable, flawed human fell but it wasn't to be. Obi-Wan was the real protagonist anyway And he was a flawed human being as demonstrated in Episode 1.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: rohlfdawg
PSN: rohlfdawg83
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Post by heathenoxman on Jan 20, 2018 19:38:33 GMT
Yeah, I was hyped to go see this in the theater, but, based on this thread, I'll probably wait until it comes available to rent....
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 20, 2018 19:38:45 GMT
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jan 20, 2018 19:40:32 GMT
It's weird that Jyn Erso can be written as a nuanced female protagonist with grounded flaws and reasonable positive qualities, but that Rey can't. After all, Disney funded both films so surely they can see that no one is calling Rogue One's female lead a Mary Sue; why not make Rey more like her? Because Jyn was never going to be a bigger than life
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