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Post by decafhigh on Jan 20, 2018 19:42:01 GMT
I liked Jyn, and Rogue One. It was a far far better movie than either TFA or TLJ. I do agree that Rey is a Mary Sue, but that isn't particularly new in Star Wars. Luke was as well in the originals, spends all of a few days training with Obi-wan and maybe a few weeks with Yoda? Maybe outside the movies that is expanded on more, I dunno, but he basically had almost no training and goes on to be "the most powerful Jedi ever". Sure it was still more than Rey's no training at all but considering becoming a Jedi is something that is supposed to take your entire childhood and adolescence to achieve they are both squarely in Mary Sue'ville. Personally I've found both TFA and TLJ at best to be bland with incredibly predictable plots and bad acting all around. TLJ in particular felt like it was just a patchwork of scenes meant to be "Star Wars-esque" with a few outright ridiculous moments like space flying Leia. All in all they have just been bad, maybe for younger folks or people that never got into the original movies its cool to them, but for me they haven't had that same sense of wonder or adventure the original movies had. I will point out that Luke was pretty much carried through A New Hope by Obi-Wan and Han Solo, needing to be rescued several times by them. And the two times he uses the Force it was so subtle than Han was able to pass it off as "luck" Granted Luke's training by Yoda was brief, covering only a few weeks or months (it's never made clear) but it WAS shown to be intense. And when it came to facing Vader, he still got his *ss handed to him, losing his lightsaber and his hand. In fact, he had to be rescued AGAIN, this time by Leia, go get out of that alive. (I recall showing that movie to one of my nephews, who was maybe five at the time, and he sagely noted "He went to rescue his friends, but they had to rescue him instead) SO while yes, Luke is something of a prodigy, I wouldn't put him into Mary Sue-ville, given his flaws (overly idealistic, and headstrong to the pint of recklessness) regularly puts him into situations he can't handle. It's only in the third movie where his talents seem to catch up to his idealism. And even then it's a pretty near thing. Doesn't hurt that thanks to Obi-wan he also had the high ground advantage. Luke in Empire against a Vader that still had his arms and legs wouldn't have stood much of a chance. Still Lucas did say Luke was "the most powerful ever" (after the movie timeline obviously) and he did it with minimal training. Now we get Rey who has no training who apparently is going to be even stronger. Heck if there is a trilogy after this I assume the next hero will just start swinging a lightsaber around as soon as they exit the womb.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 20, 2018 19:43:35 GMT
Yeah, I was hyped to go see this in the theater, but, based on this thread, I'll probably wait until it comes available to rent.... Do yourself a favor & DO NOT pay to see this "film"
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Post by smilesja on Jan 20, 2018 19:44:48 GMT
You know for all their talk for saying how Chewie was important and how is death wasn’t well handled in the Old EU, Disney did not do a good job in having Chewie mourn Han. Instead he was put in comedic relief scenes with Porgs, I mean Rey showed more remorse than Chewie and she knew him for a few days! At least people mourned Chewie in the old EU.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 20, 2018 19:44:50 GMT
Also, i used to shit on Darth Krayt whenever he was referenced, despite his impressive showing against Abeloth, but Kylo and Snoke made me re-examine and mildly appreciate his character. Darth Zhorrid looks better by comparison. So does Dath Fatass Baras Fatass
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Post by river82 on Jan 20, 2018 19:46:21 GMT
By then it was too late. Not many care when perfection falls, because it's hard to relate. A lot of people take smug satisfaction in it IRL, actually. More people would have cared if a vulnerable, flawed human fell but it wasn't to be. Obi-Wan was the real protagonist anyway And he was a flawed human being as demonstrated in Episode 1. He wasn't. Anakin was created to be perfection in episode 1, and that's what he was.
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Post by river82 on Jan 20, 2018 19:48:15 GMT
Doesn't hurt that thanks to Obi-wan he also had the high ground advantage. Luke in Empire against a Vader that still had his arms and legs wouldn't have stood much of a chance. Still Lucas did say Luke was "the most powerful ever" (after the movie timeline obviously) and he did it with minimal training. Now we get Rey who has no training who apparently is going to be even stronger. Heck if there is a trilogy after this I assume the next hero will just start swinging a lightsaber around as soon as they exit the womb. Normally Jedi are trained for a minimum of ten years, then spend another decade as a Padawan. Luke had a few weeks. I'm surprised he didn't cut his own foot off, especially considering lightsabers in the OT were supposed to be heavy and extremely difficult to wield ...
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Post by smilesja on Jan 20, 2018 19:48:57 GMT
And he was a flawed human being as demonstrated in Episode 1. He wasn't. Anakin was created to be perfection in episode 1, and that's what he was. He had fear and anger, all of which foreshadowed his downfall in the next two episodes.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 20, 2018 19:50:06 GMT
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Post by river82 on Jan 20, 2018 19:53:20 GMT
He wasn't. Anakin was created to be perfection in episode 1, and that's what he was. He had fear and anger, all of which foreshadowed his downfall in the next two episodes. He didn't display fear, he said he had fear. Or Yoda said he had fear. Very unconvincing. If Rey said she's not very good, does that make her not very good? What about if someone else said she's not very good while she's dismembering ten members of an elite guard, does that make her not very good? If Anakin is portrayed as perfect in episode 1, a little green puppet saying "ooh, much fear you have in you" doesn't add to his character depth. As for anger, he never lost control of it. It's a mild thing in episode 1, it doesn't detract from what is obviously a perfect person.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 20, 2018 19:55:42 GMT
You know for all their talk for saying how Chewie was important and how is death wasn’t well handled in the Old EU, Disney did not do a good job in having Chewie mourn Han. Instead he was put in comedic relief scenes with Porgs, I mean Rey showed more remorse than Chewie and she knew him for a few days! At least people mourned Chewie in the old EU. Maybe they felt this was enough, I don't even remember what Chewie did in this movie.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jan 20, 2018 20:05:13 GMT
You know for all their talk for saying how Chewie was important and how is death wasn’t well handled in the Old EU, Disney did not do a good job in having Chewie mourn Han. Instead he was put in comedic relief scenes with Porgs, I mean Rey showed more remorse than Chewie and she knew him for a few days! At least people mourned Chewie in the old EU. Chewie? Han? They were nobodies. Their parents were nobodies too! Nobody cared about them. NOBODY!
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 20, 2018 20:08:32 GMT
You know for all their talk for saying how Chewie was important and how is death wasn’t well handled in the Old EU, Disney did not do a good job in having Chewie mourn Han. Instead he was put in comedic relief scenes with Porgs, I mean Rey showed more remorse than Chewie and she knew him for a few days! At least people mourned Chewie in the old EU. Chewie? Han? They were nobodies. Their parents were nobodies too! Nobody cared about them. NOBODY! Yeah, we really need to know every single characters backstory and were they came from. This meme sums up Solo in a nutshell:
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2018 20:10:04 GMT
I will point out that Luke was pretty much carried through A New Hope by Obi-Wan and Han Solo, needing to be rescued several times by them. And the two times he uses the Force it was so subtle than Han was able to pass it off as "luck" Granted Luke's training by Yoda was brief, covering only a few weeks or months (it's never made clear) but it WAS shown to be intense. And when it came to facing Vader, he still got his *ss handed to him, losing his lightsaber and his hand. In fact, he had to be rescued AGAIN, this time by Leia, go get out of that alive. (I recall showing that movie to one of my nephews, who was maybe five at the time, and he sagely noted "He went to rescue his friends, but they had to rescue him instead) SO while yes, Luke is something of a prodigy, I wouldn't put him into Mary Sue-ville, given his flaws (overly idealistic, and headstrong to the pint of recklessness) regularly puts him into situations he can't handle. It's only in the third movie where his talents seem to catch up to his idealism. And even then it's a pretty near thing. Doesn't hurt that thanks to Obi-wan he also had the high ground advantage. Luke in Empire against a Vader that still had his arms and legs wouldn't have stood much of a chance. And Rey will be some mean old biddy living on a glacier waiting to die after wasting her life...
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2018 20:10:50 GMT
Also, i used to shit on Darth Krayt whenever he was referenced, despite his impressive showing against Abeloth, but Kylo and Snoke made me re-examine and mildly appreciate his character. Darth Zhorrid looks better by comparison. So does Dath Fatass Baras Fatass You mean Darth Volus?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2018 20:23:44 GMT
Anyways hopefully nothing goes wrong with this post like it did the first two times. I'm not quoting mybudgee because this is more general now.
What flaws does Rey have?
1. She hopes her parents come and get her. Which keeps her on January for nearly a decade. And when she leaves she tries her damnedest to get back. Jackie which is full of murders and criminals and Unkar. She wants to go back on the slim hope her parents will get her.
2. As Kylo puts it she looks for savior figures everywhere. Unkar, Han, Luke. Etc. Instead of relying on herself.
Besides I am getting really annoyed with the general term. If Mary Sue is to have any useful definition, all the sources seem to agree, it's of an author self insert. Who created Rey? Lawerence Kazdan and JJ Abrams. Who wrote the last jedi? Rian Johnson. All men. Who is Rey supposed to be a self insert of? Kathleen Kennedy? The little I know of her background makes that unlikely. Hermione Granger is a Mary Sue. Sabine is likely a Mary Sue . Not Rey.
As far as Jyn is concerned I found her boring and dull. Well written given what they were going for but Rey showed more humanity in her first ten minutes then Jyn did in two hours.
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Post by Lorn on Jan 20, 2018 20:24:56 GMT
Darth Zhorrid looks better by comparison. So does Dath Fatass Baras Fatass You mean Darth Volus? No:
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2018 20:33:47 GMT
Anyways hopefully nothing goes wrong with this post like it did the first two times. I'm not quoting mybudgee because this is more general now. What flaws does Rey have? 1. She hopes her parents come and get her. Which keeps her on January for nearly a decade. And when she leaves she tries her damnedest to get back. Jackie which is full of murders and criminals and Unkar. She wants to go back on the slim hope her parents will get her. 2. As Kylo puts it she looks for savior figures everywhere. Unkar, Han, Luke. Etc. Instead of relying on herself. Besides I am getting really annoyed with the general term. If Mary Sue is to have any useful definition, all the sources seem to agree, it's of an author self insert. Who created Rey? Lawerence Kazdan and JJ Abrams. Who wrote the last jedi? Rian Johnson. All men. Who is Rey supposed to be a self insert of? Kathleen Kennedy? The little I know of her background makes that unlikely. Hermione Granger is a Mary Sue. Sabine is likely a Mary Sue . Not Rey. As far as Jyn is concerned I found her boring and dull. Well written given what they were going for but Rey showed more humanity in her first ten minutes then Jyn did in two hours. Neither of Rey's "flaws" had any detrimental effect on her character. They never caused her to make poor choices or need to be pulled out of danger. At worst, it delays her taking up Luke's old lightsaber. The pretty-much universal traits of a Mary Sue seem to be: -vital to the story -possesses unusual traits or background -implausibly talented -overly-idealized nature -no story relevant flaws The gender of the character or the author is irrelevant. For years I read the Honor Harrington series. Honor is a woman. David Weber, the author, is a man. And Honor was well into Sue-territory by the second or third book. Was still a good series, for a while. Not so much anymore.
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Post by mannyray on Jan 20, 2018 20:37:11 GMT
Anyways hopefully nothing goes wrong with this post like it did the first two times. I'm not quoting mybudgee because this is more general now. What flaws does Rey have? 1. She hopes her parents come and get her. Which keeps her on January for nearly a decade. And when she leaves she tries her damnedest to get back. Jackie which is full of murders and criminals and Unkar. She wants to go back on the slim hope her parents will get her. 2. As Kylo puts it she looks for savior figures everywhere. Unkar, Han, Luke. Etc. Instead of relying on herself. Besides I am getting really annoyed with the general term. If Mary Sue is to have any useful definition, all the sources seem to agree, it's of an author self insert. Who created Rey? Lawerence Kazdan and JJ Abrams. Who wrote the last jedi? Rian Johnson. All men. Who is Rey supposed to be a self insert of? Kathleen Kennedy? The little I know of her background makes that unlikely. Hermione Granger is a Mary Sue. Sabine is likely a Mary Sue . Not Rey. As far as Jyn is concerned I found her boring and dull. Well written given what they were going for but Rey showed more humanity in her first ten minutes then Jyn did in two hours. Neither of Rey's "flaws" had any detrimental effect on her character. They never caused her to make poor choices or need to be pulled out of danger. At worst, it delays her taking up Luke's old lightsaber. The pretty-much universal traits of a Mary Sue seem to be: -vital to the story -possesses unusual traits or background -implausibly talented -overly-idealized nature -no story relevant flaws The gender of the character or the author is irrelevant. For years I read the Honor Harrington series. Honor is a woman. David Weber, the author, is a man. And Honor was well into Sue-territory by the second or third book. Was still a good series, for a while. Not so much anymore. Just like Luke and even moreso like Anakin. But this time it's different because reasons.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 20, 2018 20:38:53 GMT
Anyways hopefully nothing goes wrong with this post like it did the first two times. I'm not quoting mybudgee because this is more general now. What flaws does Rey have? 1. She hopes her parents come and get her. Which keeps her on January for nearly a decade. And when she leaves she tries her damnedest to get back. Jackie which is full of murders and criminals and Unkar. She wants to go back on the slim hope her parents will get her. 2. As Kylo puts it she looks for savior figures everywhere. Unkar, Han, Luke. Etc. Instead of relying on herself. Besides I am getting really annoyed with the general term. If Mary Sue is to have any useful definition, all the sources seem to agree, it's of an author self insert. Who created Rey? Lawerence Kazdan and JJ Abrams. Who wrote the last jedi? Rian Johnson. All men. Who is Rey supposed to be a self insert of? Kathleen Kennedy? The little I know of her background makes that unlikely. Hermione Granger is a Mary Sue. Sabine is likely a Mary Sue . Not Rey. As far as Jyn is concerned I found her boring and dull. Well written given what they were going for but Rey showed more humanity in her first ten minutes then Jyn did in two hours. Neither of Rey's "flaws" had any detrimental effect on her character. They never caused her to make poor choices or need to be pulled out of danger. At worst, it delays her taking up Luke's old lightsaber. The pretty-much universal traits of a Mary Sue seem to be: -vital to the story -possesses unusual traits or background -implausibly talented -overly-idealized nature -no story relevant flaws The gender of the character or the author is irrelevant. For years I read the Honor Harrington series. Honor is a woman. David Weber, the author, is a man. And Honor was well into Sue-territory by the second or third book. Was still a good series, for a while. Not so much anymore. You two are never going to agree on this. Both of you are using the same points over and over again. So, agree to disagree so this thread can move on to the next thing that it hates. Which would probably be Rebels, Solo trailer and then the actual movie.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 20, 2018 20:39:17 GMT
As far as Jyn is concerned I found her boring and dull.She is MUCH more exciting to watch than a character who does everything perfectly. Come on man... listen to yourself
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2018 20:39:31 GMT
Neither of Rey's "flaws" had any detrimental effect on her character. They never caused her to make poor choices or need to be pulled out of danger. At worst, it delays her taking up Luke's old lightsaber. The pretty-much universal traits of a Mary Sue seem to be: -vital to the story -possesses unusual traits or background -implausibly talented -overly-idealized nature -no story relevant flaws The gender of the character or the author is irrelevant. For years I read the Honor Harrington series. Honor is a woman. David Weber, the author, is a man. And Honor was well into Sue-territory by the second or third book. Was still a good series, for a while. Not so much anymore. Just like Luke and even moreso like Anakin. But this time it's different because reasons. Luke gets carried through the first movie, gets totally rekt by Vader the second movie, and he's a Sue? Anakin was emotionally unstable and ends up turning to the Dark Side, and he's a Sue?
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Post by mannyray on Jan 20, 2018 20:42:02 GMT
Just like Luke and even moreso like Anakin. But this time it's different because reasons. Luke gets carried through the first movie, gets totally rekt by Vader the second movie, and he's a Sue? Anakin was emotionally unstable and ends up turning to the Dark Side, and he's a Sue? THIS IS POD RACING! okay.
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Post by river82 on Jan 20, 2018 20:43:42 GMT
Arrival and Blade Runner 2049 director Denis Villeneuve is tackling Frank Herbert’s novel Dune and has told FANDOM that he aims to make it the Star Wars movie he never saw. Although he admits that making a film that’s different to Star Wars won’t be easy.
“Most of the main ideas of Star Wars are coming from Dune so it’s going to be a challenge to [tackle] this,” the French-Canadian director says. “The ambition is to do the Star Wars movie I never saw. In a way, it’s Star Wars for adults. We’ll see.”fandom.wikia.com/articles/dune-adaptation-will-be-star-wars-for-adults-says-directorShots fired xD
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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2018 20:45:30 GMT
Call her a generic action heroine if you must. It's perfectly valid criticism. But if you continue to maintain she is a Sue you have to answer who she is a self insert for. Until then your criticisms are invalid.
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Post by mannyray on Jan 20, 2018 21:09:45 GMT
Call her a generic action heroine if you must. It's perfectly valid criticism. But if you continue to maintain she is a Sue you have to answer who she is a self insert for. Until then your criticisms are invalid. This sums up Rey adequately. What gets me is all these "marysue omgz sjw shut up omgz" people are basically shitting themselves because Rey is female. It's fairly evident given that other "marysues" get a free pass, like Luke and Anakin. They're willing to overinflate the source material, even the lousy prequels because of it. If anything, Rey is not a symbol of a feminist agenda, she is a generic heroine template cynically put in place because, dating back to the first Underworld film, women have shown they can be in front of a profitable action franchise. I think if the most recent example of a lucrative (if not exactly good) franchise that is responsible for Rey having a vagina is The Hunger Games. If that series had tanked, Rey would probably have been a boy. And I bet even if said boy was characterized exactly like Daisy Ridley's character the "real fan" outrage would be at best a murmur.
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