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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 7:26:20 GMT
Yes one does
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 12, 2018 14:28:09 GMT
Not really. Though I do thank you for allowing me to make this point. My biggest problem with midichlorians was not that it demystified the Force but it removed individual talent and really sabotaged Star Wars. Luke in ANH started out as an everyman sort of hero. If we tried hard enough we could be Luke Skywalker. He was someone we could aspire to. In Empire Vader being his father implied the Force could travel along blood lines. But it was still rather vague. The prequels blew the relatibility all to hell. Instead of the Force being obtainable by us mere mortals it's forever out of reach. It does not matter how hard you train or try or anything...your midichlorians count determines your power in the Force. But with Rey things are back to being full circle. Especially considering who her parents are. Rey is no one, she has no great lineage to fall back on, no place in the story. She is just a normal person and thus,as with broom boy, serves as an inspiration that anyone can do anything they put their mind to. Except not really. At all. Because as you well know, being a rando does not preclude being a weird genetic freak that allows you to become a space wizard. Luke may have started out as an everyman but that was thrown out in Empire. He's Vader's son, he's all tied into it, it's his destiny, boom. He was special all along. No genetics required. And frankly, the way you're combining these points is ridiculous. Did we really relate to Luke because he could start moving shit with his mind or listen to the ghost of an old hobo? Did we really think "wow, maybe I can move shit with my mind and train with Muppets" when we saw that? Or did we respond to the hero archetype, the role he played in the story and just suspended our disbelief about the space magic stuff? Or for a clearer example, take Harry Potter. Mistreated everyman, fish out of water for a ridiculous amount of time? You bet. Chosen One, check. But guess what? He's still a genetic freak. Not everyone can do magic. You still either have that quirk or you don't. If Rowling came out and said "there are magical bacteria that wizard cells rub every time they cast a spell" that would affect fuck all about whether or not we can relate to the characters, because it's what we suspend disbelief for, not what makes us connect to them. Yeah, I'm in the "people need to sftu about midi-chlorians" camp. It tears a plothole in the prequels that nobody tested Palpatine, but it does not "ruin" the Force. Think of bioluminescence. Is that jellyfish or whatever, really not pretty once you realize it's bacteria under its skin that provides that light? Does it "ruin" what light is?
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Post by Vortex13 on Feb 12, 2018 15:37:30 GMT
Really, what annoys me about the Force in Star Wars is not the Midi-Clorians but rather how being force sensitive automatically makes a person "better" than those that are not.
Sure, being a magical space wizard should be something special, but the fact that your average Force user, just getting into a space ship or picking up a weapon, is magically able to outpace a mundane who has trained for their entire adult life in piloting or combat, or a droid, who is specifically created to do a particular job, because "The Force" tends to cheapen the non-special characters.
The prequels doubled down on this point by having hundreds of force users running around; new Jedi and Sith popping up like daisies everywhere you looked.
I guess it's more my problem of looking at settings like this as needing to have a balanced system in place like RPGs need to, but I can't help but wonder what your average mundane is supposed to do in a universe like this. Are regular people even worth anything with all these Supermen running around? That's a big part of the reason why I liked things in the EU like the Force blocking Ysdril (sp?) or how the Yuzong Vong were (mostly) immune to Force powers, those things knocked the Force Users off their pedestals and brought them back down into the muck with the rest of the galaxy. I especially liked how it was droids, more than the Jedi who actually rattled the Vong; the actions of Luke notwithstanding.
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Post by Larry-3 on Feb 12, 2018 19:31:22 GMT
About medi-chlorians, according to lore, they are in all living things, one just needs enough of them.
This is how I see it...
Normal people = 2,500
Spiritual people = 3,500
Really weak jedi = 5,000
Below average jedi = 7,000
Average jedi = 10,000
Above average jedi = 12,000
Prodigy's = 15,000
I can only think of one force user that possessed a count as high as 20,000. On a side note, I believe Luke Skywalker's was 15,000, but do not quote me on that, though.
Also, I kind of like the idea that not everyone can use the force. Not everyone can reach jedi status. From a military standpoint, it kind of makes sense. If everyone could become jedi, why would the countless militaries in Star Wars not offer a force training program of some sort? Why would the majority of people not seek out force training?
In regards to who can actually use it, it does not seem like one needs to be special. If anything, it seems random and unexpected. Anyone ranging from a badass like Mace Windu to a nobody guard on the Death Star can potentially be force sensitive.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Feb 12, 2018 20:29:43 GMT
About medi-chlorians, according to lore, they are in all living things, one just needs enough of them. This is how I see it... Normal people = 2,500 Spiritual people = 3,500 Really weak jedi = 5,000 Below average jedi = 7,000 Average jedi = 10,000 Above average jedi = 12,000 Prodigy's = 15,000 I can only think of one force user that possessed a count as high as 20,000. On a side note, I believe Luke Skywalker's was 15,000, but do not quote me on that, though. Also, I kind of like the idea that not everyone can use the force. Not everyone can reach jedi status. From a military standpoint, it kind of makes sense. If everyone could become jedi, why would the countless militaries in Star Wars not offer a force training program of some sort? Why would the majority of people not seek out force training? In regards to who can actually use it, it does not seem like one needs to be special. If anything, it seems random and unexpected. Anyone ranging from a badass like Mace Windu to a nobody guard on the Death Star can potentially be force sensitive. It's like DBZ Some species and individuals and their blood lines have higher MCs and potentials
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 20:31:50 GMT
Much better than the movie itself. Thank you HISHE!
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Post by river82 on Feb 12, 2018 20:45:32 GMT
On a side note, I believe Luke Skywalker's was 15,000, but do not quote me on that, though. Holy crap, it's over nine thoooooooousand!
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Post by colfoley on Feb 12, 2018 21:05:37 GMT
Not really. Though I do thank you for allowing me to make this point. My biggest problem with midichlorians was not that it demystified the Force but it removed individual talent and really sabotaged Star Wars. Luke in ANH started out as an everyman sort of hero. If we tried hard enough we could be Luke Skywalker. He was someone we could aspire to. In Empire Vader being his father implied the Force could travel along blood lines. But it was still rather vague. The prequels blew the relatibility all to hell. Instead of the Force being obtainable by us mere mortals it's forever out of reach. It does not matter how hard you train or try or anything...your midichlorians count determines your power in the Force. But with Rey things are back to being full circle. Especially considering who her parents are. Rey is no one, she has no great lineage to fall back on, no place in the story. She is just a normal person and thus,as with broom boy, serves as an inspiration that anyone can do anything they put their mind to. Except not really. At all. Because as you well know, being a rando does not preclude being a weird genetic freak that allows you to become a space wizard. Luke may have started out as an everyman but that was thrown out in Empire. He's Vader's son, he's all tied into it, it's his destiny, boom. He was special all along. No genetics required. And frankly, the way you're combining these points is ridiculous. Did we really relate to Luke because he could start moving shit with his mind or listen to the ghost of an old hobo? Did we really think "wow, maybe I can move shit with my mind and train with Muppets" when we saw that? Or did we respond to the hero archetype, the role he played in the story and just suspended our disbelief about the space magic stuff? Or for a clearer example, take Harry Potter. Mistreated everyman, fish out of water for a ridiculous amount of time? You bet. Chosen One, check. But guess what? He's still a genetic freak. Not everyone can do magic. You still either have that quirk or you don't. If Rowling came out and said "there are magical bacteria that wizard cells rub every time they cast a spell" that would affect fuck all about whether or not we can relate to the characters, because it's what we suspend disbelief for, not what makes us connect to them. Yeah, I'm in the "people need to sftu about midi-chlorians" camp. It tears a plothole in the prequels that nobody tested Palpatine, but it does not "ruin" the Force. Think of bioluminescence. Is that jellyfish or whatever, really not pretty once you realize it's bacteria under its skin that provides that light? Does it "ruin" what light is? My point wasn't that midi chlorians ruined the force because you are right people can do amazing things with the Force regardless of where it comes from. My point was that Midichlorians...(what the hell is the spelling of this word?)isolates the Jedi in universe from the rest of society, and in a meta context it isolates the Force from us, the audience. The Force may not exist IRL but if we assume our greatness is due to our genetics is a very dangerous precedent as has been proven time and again. After all fiction may not be real but it can often reflect real life things and give us something to aspire to, or at the least think about. As I have already mentioned in Harry Potter Harry is not great because of his genetics or his lineage or who his parents are: He is great because of the choices he makes, and the fact that Voldemort marked him as his rival in the prophecy instead of Neville, thus making his own choice. (choice is rather a big theme in the Potter universe). Hermione isn't great because of who her parents are, her parents were muggles for chrissake, but because of her intelligence, ability, her persistance and her ability to figure things out thus proving herself a vital member of the power trio. Rey isn't great because of who her parents are, at least as far as we know. She is great because of her skills, belief in herself, and her desire to do the right thing despite being born into some pretty terrible circumstances. It is the whole point of the everyman character that even if we do not have access to the Force we can still achieve greatness in our lives no matter where we are and where we come from. That our genetics don't matter. Only what we do with them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 21:11:27 GMT
Here's another way to look at it, at the time of TPM there were supposedly about 10,000 Jedi Knights, now that sounds a lot but we're talking about a galaxy that has trillions and trillions of inhabitants. There are bugger all people who can use the Force and they can be killed just like anyone else. Sadly this is something the movies don't illustrate all that well. Most ordinary people in the galaxy could live their entire life and never meet a Jedi.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 21:20:02 GMT
Except not really. At all. Because as you well know, being a rando does not preclude being a weird genetic freak that allows you to become a space wizard. Luke may have started out as an everyman but that was thrown out in Empire. He's Vader's son, he's all tied into it, it's his destiny, boom. He was special all along. No genetics required. And frankly, the way you're combining these points is ridiculous. Did we really relate to Luke because he could start moving shit with his mind or listen to the ghost of an old hobo? Did we really think "wow, maybe I can move shit with my mind and train with Muppets" when we saw that? Or did we respond to the hero archetype, the role he played in the story and just suspended our disbelief about the space magic stuff? Or for a clearer example, take Harry Potter. Mistreated everyman, fish out of water for a ridiculous amount of time? You bet. Chosen One, check. But guess what? He's still a genetic freak. Not everyone can do magic. You still either have that quirk or you don't. If Rowling came out and said "there are magical bacteria that wizard cells rub every time they cast a spell" that would affect fuck all about whether or not we can relate to the characters, because it's what we suspend disbelief for, not what makes us connect to them. Yeah, I'm in the "people need to sftu about midi-chlorians" camp. It tears a plothole in the prequels that nobody tested Palpatine, but it does not "ruin" the Force. Think of bioluminescence. Is that jellyfish or whatever, really not pretty once you realize it's bacteria under its skin that provides that light? Does it "ruin" what light is? My point wasn't that midi chlorians ruined the force because you are right people can do amazing things with the Force regardless of where it comes from. My point was that Midichlorians...(what the hell is the spelling of this word?)isolates the Jedi in universe from the rest of society, and in a meta context it isolates the Force from us, the audience. The Force may not exist IRL but if we assume our greatness is due to our genetics is a very dangerous precedent as has been proven time and again. After all fiction may not be real but it can often reflect real life things and give us something to aspire to, or at the least think about. As I have already mentioned in Harry Potter Harry is not great because of his genetics or his lineage or who his parents are: He is great because of the choices he makes, and the fact that Voldemort marked him as his rival in the prophecy instead of Neville, thus making his own choice. (choice is rather a big theme in the Potter universe). Hermione isn't great because of who her parents are, her parents were muggles for chrissake, but because of her intelligence, ability, her persistance and her ability to figure things out thus proving herself a vital member of the power trio. Rey isn't great because of who her parents are, at least as far as we know. She is great because of her skills, belief in herself, and her desire to do the right thing despite being born into some pretty terrible circumstances. It is the whole point of the everyman character that even if we do not have access to the Force we can still achieve greatness in our lives no matter where we are and where we come from. That our genetics don't matter. Only what we do with them. We don't know if Rey was born into terrible circumstances. We have no idea about her birth and what not beyond that one image of a young Rey being abandoned as a child.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 12, 2018 21:30:54 GMT
My point wasn't that midi chlorians ruined the force because you are right people can do amazing things with the Force regardless of where it comes from. My point was that Midichlorians...(what the hell is the spelling of this word?)isolates the Jedi in universe from the rest of society, and in a meta context it isolates the Force from us, the audience. The Force may not exist IRL but if we assume our greatness is due to our genetics is a very dangerous precedent as has been proven time and again. After all fiction may not be real but it can often reflect real life things and give us something to aspire to, or at the least think about. As I have already mentioned in Harry Potter Harry is not great because of his genetics or his lineage or who his parents are: He is great because of the choices he makes, and the fact that Voldemort marked him as his rival in the prophecy instead of Neville, thus making his own choice. (choice is rather a big theme in the Potter universe). Hermione isn't great because of who her parents are, her parents were muggles for chrissake, but because of her intelligence, ability, her persistance and her ability to figure things out thus proving herself a vital member of the power trio. Rey isn't great because of who her parents are, at least as far as we know. She is great because of her skills, belief in herself, and her desire to do the right thing despite being born into some pretty terrible circumstances. It is the whole point of the everyman character that even if we do not have access to the Force we can still achieve greatness in our lives no matter where we are and where we come from. That our genetics don't matter. Only what we do with them. We don't know if Rey was born into terrible circumstances. We have no idea about her birth and what not beyond that one image of a young Rey being abandoned as a child. *sigh* General commentary: What is it about Rey that makes people seem to shut down their logic centers? Specific Commentary: We know damn well how horrible her circumstances are because of environmental clues and given a lot of what happens during the Force Awakens. Jakku is a criminal scavenger den out in the middle of nowhere. Unkar Plunt has full and total control over everything and can arbitrarily set prices on a whim (one half portion, yesterday they were a full portion each, what about the droid?) She lives in a downed AT-AT. She was cornered by Unkar Plunt's thugs and threatened when she was just briefly distracted from her work. And yet, she survived this environment without knowing what the Force by learning skills and maintaining a determination to do the right thing.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Feb 12, 2018 21:33:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 21:35:56 GMT
We don't know if Rey was born into terrible circumstances. We have no idea about her birth and what not beyond that one image of a young Rey being abandoned as a child. *sigh* General commentary: What is it about Rey that makes people seem to shut down their logic centers?
Specific Commentary: We know damn well how horrible her circumstances are because of environmental clues and given a lot of what happens during the Force Awakens. Jakku is a criminal scavenger den out in the middle of nowhere. Unkar Plunt has full and total control over everything and can arbitrarily set prices on a whim (one half portion, yesterday they were a full portion each, what about the droid?) She lives in a downed AT-AT. She was cornered by Unkar Plunt's thugs and threatened when she was just briefly distracted from her work. And yet, she survived this environment without knowing what the Force by learning skills and maintaining a determination to do the right thing. Yet again not the circumstance of her birth. That's the circumstance of her life, certainty, but not birth.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 12, 2018 21:49:56 GMT
*sigh* General commentary: What is it about Rey that makes people seem to shut down their logic centers?
Specific Commentary: We know damn well how horrible her circumstances are because of environmental clues and given a lot of what happens during the Force Awakens. Jakku is a criminal scavenger den out in the middle of nowhere. Unkar Plunt has full and total control over everything and can arbitrarily set prices on a whim (one half portion, yesterday they were a full portion each, what about the droid?) She lives in a downed AT-AT. She was cornered by Unkar Plunt's thugs and threatened when she was just briefly distracted from her work. And yet, she survived this environment without knowing what the Force by learning skills and maintaining a determination to do the right thing. Yet again not the circumstance of her birth. That's the circumstance of her life, certainty, but not birth. sure which is my point.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 21:51:29 GMT
Yet again not the circumstance of her birth. That's the circumstance of her life, certainty, but not birth. sure which is my point. <iframe width="24.22" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_53614365" style="border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 24.22px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_10781922" style="border-style: none; left: 1146px; top: -203px; width: 24.22px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_56054267" style="border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -15px; width: 24.22px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_30620514" style="border-style: none; left: 1146px; top: -15px; width: 24.22px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> Maybe you should've put it as the circumstances of her life rather than birth. That would make more logical sense.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 12, 2018 22:11:23 GMT
My point wasn't that midi chlorians ruined the force because you are right people can do amazing things with the Force regardless of where it comes from. My point was that Midichlorians...(what the hell is the spelling of this word?)isolates the Jedi in universe from the rest of society, and i n a meta context it isolates the Force from us, the audience. The Force may not exist IRL but if we assume our greatness is due to our genetics is a very dangerous precedent as has been proven time and again. After all fiction may not be real but it can often reflect real life things and give us something to aspire to, or at the least think about. As I have already mentioned in Harry Potter Harry is not great because of his genetics or his lineage or who his parents are: He is great because of the choices he makes, and the fact that Voldemort marked him as his rival in the prophecy instead of Neville, thus making his own choice. (choice is rather a big theme in the Potter universe). Hermione isn't great because of who her parents are, her parents were muggles for chrissake, but because of her intelligence, ability, her persistance and her ability to figure things out thus proving herself a vital member of the power trio. Rey isn't great because of who her parents are, at least as far as we know. She is great because of her skills, belief in herself, and her desire to do the right thing despite being born into some pretty terrible circumstances. It is the whole point of the everyman character that even if we do not have access to the Force we can still achieve greatness in our lives no matter where we are and where we come from. That our genetics don't matter. Only what we do with them. And I'm saying that's ludicrous. The Force is fiction. It doesn't exist. Therefore it doesn't matter how many layers of bullshit techno/fantasy babble you add to it, it's still just as "separate" from us by virtue of its nonexistence. It's also irrelevant because the relatablility of the characters doesn't map 1-1 to "I can do this too" anyway. The characters are special and are specifically set apart from those that are not, within the story. The degree of specificity in regards to the how of it is entirely superfluous. The arc is built on the characters being mundane and "just like you and me" by virtue of ignorance- they don't know they're special, until they hear the call to arms. But they are special nonetheless. So if you're that picky about it, you have to admit that they are special and you and I are (probably) not. In which case, why do the mechanics of the specialness matter? As for genetics and greatness in RL it's no worse a delusion than divine right (which something like the Force would map to closer), it's just been industrialized better. And just for fun I'll point out that if anything, the prequels dispel the notion of lineage based greatness rather than enforce or introduce it. In the original trilogy the major players in the Force are the Skywalkers. Ok you have the Emperor, Yoda and Obi-wan. But as the devil and mentor characters respectively they don't really count. One family of powerful Force users in the entire galaxy. Compare that to the prequels where there's Force users up the ass and we learn that that Force use is actually pretty randomized via space magic bacteria in our cells. Notice also the lack of lineage or genetics based concentrations- there are no powerful families or clans of Jedi, indeed families don't really exist as Jedi don't marry and there's only ever two Sith, and they're always dudes. Anakin is space Jesus, born to an otherwise completely mundane woman (Shmi) so even the Chosen One is random as fuck. "The Force runs strong in my family" Luke tells Leia in Jedi. But absolutely nobody has family in the prequels other than Anakin's mom who's killed almost offscreen as a plot device. So tell me again how the prequels (or midi-chlorians specifically) enforce genetic superiority.
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Post by river82 on Feb 12, 2018 23:08:17 GMT
And just for fun I'll point out that if anything, the prequels dispel the notion of lineage based greatness rather than enforce or introduce it. In the original trilogy the major players in the Force are the Skywalkers. Ok you have the Emperor, Yoda and Obi-wan. But as the devil and mentor characters respectively they don't really count. One family of powerful Force users in the entire galaxy. Compare that to the prequels where there's Force users up the ass and we learn that that Force use is actually pretty randomized via space magic bacteria in our cells. Notice also the lack of lineage or genetics based concentrations- there are no powerful families or clans of Jedi, indeed families don't really exist as Jedi don't marry and there's only ever two Sith, and they're always dudes. Anakin is space Jesus, born to an otherwise completely mundane woman (Shmi) so even the Chosen One is random as fuck. "The Force runs strong in my family" Luke tells Leia in Jedi. But absolutely nobody has family in the prequels other than Anakin's mom who's killed almost offscreen as a plot device. So tell me again how the prequels (or midi-chlorians specifically) enforce genetic superiority. Because genetics do not equate to lineage as it relates to this conversation. Therefore dispelling lineage superiority in no way dispels genetic superiority. While it is true that to perform the Force you still need to be a genetic freak, there were 10,000 Force Users at the time of the prequels, and countless other Force sensitives. Of these people only a handful will ever be considered great. Those who are considered great will often be the most powerful of those Force users. The power of the Force user is determined by your midichlorians. Midichlorians are genetic. Yoda, Palpatine, Anakin are all great because of their midichlorian count, or in other words they are all great because of their genetics Rando jedi #755 isn't great because his midichlorian count is 2500. This is a trait established in the prequels so this genetic superiority doesn't just carry over from the OT, but is emphasised. With Harry Potter he's a wizard sure, but so are 20,000 other people. They're not all great. However in Harry Potter the idea that the blood determined your power or how great you become was intentionally dispelled and was a running theme. Harry Potter became great despite being a half blood, Hermione Granger was the smartest witch in her generation despite being muggle born, and Ron was pretty incompetent despite being pure blood. And when Voldemort marked the infant who was most dangerous to him, he shunned the pure blood for the half blood. That's how he became the Chosen One, through the decision of Voldemort to go after a half-blood wizard over a pure-blood wizard.
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Post by Melra on Feb 12, 2018 23:57:29 GMT
I'd like to state just incase someone here has forgotten for a moment. TLJ was a pretty shitty movie.
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Post by river82 on Feb 13, 2018 0:07:18 GMT
I dunno bout anyone else, but I'm excited to see young Chewbacca introduced in the upcoming movie:
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 13, 2018 1:15:59 GMT
Because genetics do not equate to lineage as it relates to this conversation. Therefore dispelling lineage superiority in no way dispels genetic superiority. While it is true that to perform the Force you still need to be a genetic freak, there were 10,000 Force Users at the time of the prequels, and countless other Force sensitives. Of these people only a handful will ever be considered great. Those who are considered great will often be the most powerful of those Force users. The power of the Force user is determined by your midichlorians. Midichlorians are genetic. Yoda, Palpatine, Anakin are all great because of their midichlorian count, or in other words they are all great because of their genetics Rando jedi #755 isn't great because his midichlorian count is 2500. This is a trait established in the prequels so this genetic superiority doesn't just carry over from the OT, but is emphasised. With Harry Potter he's a wizard sure, but so are 20,000 other people. They're not all great. However in Harry Potter the idea that the blood determined your power or how great you become was intentionally dispelled and was a running theme. Harry Potter became great despite being a half blood, Hermione Granger was the smartest witch in her generation despite being muggle born, and Ron was pretty incompetent despite being pure blood. And when Voldemort marked the infant who was most dangerous to him, he shunned the pure blood for the half blood. That's how he became the Chosen One, through the decision of Voldemort to go after a half-blood wizard over a pure-blood wizard. wat Lineage is 100% based on genetics and genetics (in this context) is merely an aggregate expression of lineage. But if you want to argue semantics with me I'm gonna need a source for the underlined- specifically how midichlorians are proven to be hereditary. I'll wait. Can't find shit? Maybe that's because midichlorians are specifically stated to be symbiotic ie. separate entities from the bodies they inhabit. You might as well call the bacteria in my colon genetic. That being said, midichlorians still serve the same narrative function as the "wizard gene" or the "X-gene", namely complete technobabble nonsense for why some people have powers and some don't. As to the rest of your point, are you serious? Your complaint is that there's only a handful of great/powerful people with a high made up arbitrary stat and the rest are nobodies with a low arbitrary stat? First off, welcome to every story ever. Not everyone can be awesome, or else no one is awesome. Second of all, let's take a page from math and reduce both sides: A handful of great/powerful people with a high made up arbitrary stat and the rest are nobodies with a low made up arbitrary stat
Yep, still back to every story ever. Conclusion: the made up arbitrary stat doesn't matter! It's there for narrative elaboration, the people in charge can at any point create Dingnuts the WonderChump, say his arbitrary stat is over 9000 and therefore he wins everything forever. Here, I'll assign arbitrary stats to any fictional character you want me to: Rocky Balboa had 500 Stallone points at the start of the movie, but because he was a bum could only tap 200. He beat his meat enough to access 200 extra points but still lost to Apollo who despite being played by Carl Weathers had 600 Stallone points. Then they become buds and through Creed's training and further self discovery he gained enough Stallone points to beat him (that was the plot of Rocky 2, right?). Then Mr. T came along who not only had 800 Stallone points but also doubled that value through his Mohawk and bling. So Rocky had to grind some more levels before he beat Mr. T. Then Russian Dolph Lundgren came out at a whopping 1200 Stallone points, beat the extra points out of Creed and said the Russian equivalent of "come at me bro". So Rocky had to grind the Russian mountain until he got enough Stallone points to tank Lundgren and give a forced anti Cold War Speech at the end. And if you're sitting here asking me about the Stallone point requirement for beating up Mr. T, then I can't help you. Oh and I have something for your "purposefully dispelling blood makes you great" thing too (even though I'm pretty sure I already responded). The prequels come along and say Anakin is the Chosen One and his midichlorian boner gives every other Jedi adequacy issues. Clearly everyone under 20.000 MDs should just kill themselves now. Except oops, "misread the prophecy is" and Anakin is more or less a giant failure for both Jedi and Sith. Sure he's brave and powerful during the Clone Wars, but he gets taken for the biggest chump since Jar-Jar, fails at the ONE job he had, which is do nothing, and gets Sam "Motherfuckin" Jackson killed. Then he fails as a Sith, when instead of "becoming more powerful" than any of them, he loses to Ewan McGregor and a slight elevation, gets all his limbs chopped off (wonder how many midichlorians he lost there) and get burnt to a crisp, and stuck in an asthmatic gimp suit for the next couple of decades. During which time he does not kill "all the Jedis". Or even most of them. The next time we see him, Tarkin, a mundane is ordering him around like a lap dog and he can't even take out a farmboy nobody in an X wing before being sucker shot by a smuggler in a "piece of junk". Now let's cut to Luke, said farmboy nobody, who no one bothers taking a midichlorian count for. He gets taught some basic shit like lifting rocks and "anger is bad" before he goes to face Vader... and tries to redeem him by playing on his father/son relationship. Is Vader beaten down by midichlorian numbers? Is the Emperor chucked down a pit because while Luke is screaming for his father to help, Vader's counting his remaining midichlorians, realizes he's got precisely one more than Palpatine and thus his saving throw succeeds? I think not. Midichlorians. Do. Not. Matter. The Force is not what makes these characters great. It's just there to provide some cool powers, mysticism and as an excuse for a simplistic black and white moral dichotomy. For all Anakin's power and high arbitrary stat, it's still his pride, jealousy, stupidity and anger that get the best of him. And Luke's arbitrary stat matters even less, since his victory comes about from his will, determination, compassion and love for his family and friends. And that's what we relate to. Lucas can make up all the stupid RPG shit in the background that he wants. In the end it doesn't detract from the story of pride and fall, courage and redemption that just happens to be set in a galaxy far far away...
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Post by river82 on Feb 13, 2018 1:43:28 GMT
wat Lineage is 100% based on genetics and genetics (in this context) is merely an aggregate expression of lineage. But if you want to argue semantics with me I'm gonna need a source for the underlined- specifically how midichlorians are proven to be hereditary. I'll wait. Can't find shit? Maybe that's because midichlorians are specifically stated to be symbiotic ie. separate entities from the bodies they inhabit. You might as well call the bacteria in my colon genetic. That being said, midichlorians still serve the same narrative function as the "wizard gene" or the "X-gene", namely complete technobabble nonsense for why some people have powers and some don't. As to the rest of your point, are you serious? Your complaint is that there's only a handful of great/powerful people with a high made up arbitrary stat and the rest are nobodies with a low arbitrary stat? First off, welcome to every story ever. Not everyone can be awesome, or else no one is awesome. Second of all, let's take a page from math and reduce both sides: A handful of great/powerful people with a high made up arbitrary stat and the rest are nobodies with a low made up arbitrary stat
Yep, still back to every story ever. Conclusion: the made up arbitrary stat doesn't matter! It's there for narrative elaboration, the people in charge can at any point create Dingnuts the WonderChump, say his arbitrary stat is over 9000 and therefore he wins everything forever. Here, I'll assign arbitrary stats to any fictional character you want me to: Rocky Balboa had 500 Stallone points at the start of the movie, but because he was a bum could only tap 200. He beat his meat enough to access 200 extra points but still lost to Apollo who despite being played by Carl Weathers had 600 Stallone points. Then they become buds and through Creed's training and further self discovery he gained enough Stallone points to beat him (that was the plot of Rocky 2, right?). Then Mr. T came along who not only had 800 Stallone points but also doubled that value through his Mohawk and bling. So Rocky had to grind some more levels before he beat Mr. T. Then Russian Dolph Lundgren came out at a whopping 1200 Stallone points, beat the extra points out of Creed and said the Russian equivalent of "come at me bro". So Rocky had to grind the Russian mountain until he got enough Stallone points to tank Lundgren and give a forced anti Cold War Speech at the end. And if you're sitting here asking me about the Stallone point requirement for beating up Mr. T, then I can't help you. Oh and I have something for your "purposefully dispelling blood makes you great" thing too (even though I'm pretty sure I already responded). The prequels come along and say Anakin is the Chosen One and his midichlorian boner gives every other Jedi adequacy issues. Clearly everyone under 20.000 MDs should just kill themselves now. Except oops, "misread the prophecy is" and Anakin is more or less a giant failure for both Jedi and Sith. Sure he's brave and powerful during the Clone Wars, but he gets taken for the biggest chump since Jar-Jar, fails at the ONE job he had, which is do nothing, and gets Sam "Motherfuckin" Jackson killed. Then he fails as a Sith, when instead of "becoming more powerful" than any of them, he loses to Ewan McGregor and a slight elevation, gets all his limbs chopped off (wonder how many midichlorians he lost there) and get burnt to a crisp, and stuck in an asthmatic gimp suit for the next couple of decades. During which time he does not kill "all the Jedis". Or even most of them. The next time we see him, Tarkin, a mundane is ordering him around like a lap dog and he can't even take out a farmboy nobody in an X wing before being sucker shot by a smuggler in a "piece of junk". Now let's cut to Luke, said farmboy nobody, who no one bothers taking a midichlorian count for. He gets taught some basic shit like lifting rocks and "anger is bad" before he goes to face Vader... and tries to redeem him by playing on his father/son relationship. Is Vader beaten down by midichlorian numbers? Is the Emperor chucked down a pit because while Luke is screaming for his father to help, Vader's counting his remaining midichlorians, realizes he's got precisely one more than Palpatine and thus his saving throw succeeds? I think not. Midichlorians. Do. Not. Matter. The Force is not what makes these characters great. It's just there to provide some cool powers, mysticism and as an excuse for a simplistic black and white moral dichotomy. For all Anakin's power and high arbitrary stat, it's still his pride, jealousy, stupidity and anger that get the best of him. And Luke's arbitrary stat matters even less, since his victory comes about from his will, determination, compassion and love for his family and friends. And that's what we relate to. Lucas can make up all the stupid RPG shit in the background that he wants. In the end it doesn't detract from the story of pride and fall, courage and redemption that just happens to be set in a galaxy far far away... Well you mix up genealogy or lineage with genetics. For example you can adopt someone and they'd be included in a family's genealogy or lineage (whatever you want to call it) and yet not have the genetics passed on from parents to descendants. And this commonly happened back in the day. Lineage has to do with family, family is not all about genetics. But you make a good point regarding genetics and symbiotic worms and the rest though.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 13, 2018 2:34:07 GMT
My point wasn't that midi chlorians ruined the force because you are right people can do amazing things with the Force regardless of where it comes from. My point was that Midichlorians...(what the hell is the spelling of this word?)isolates the Jedi in universe from the rest of society, and i n a meta context it isolates the Force from us, the audience. The Force may not exist IRL but if we assume our greatness is due to our genetics is a very dangerous precedent as has been proven time and again. After all fiction may not be real but it can often reflect real life things and give us something to aspire to, or at the least think about. As I have already mentioned in Harry Potter Harry is not great because of his genetics or his lineage or who his parents are: He is great because of the choices he makes, and the fact that Voldemort marked him as his rival in the prophecy instead of Neville, thus making his own choice. (choice is rather a big theme in the Potter universe). Hermione isn't great because of who her parents are, her parents were muggles for chrissake, but because of her intelligence, ability, her persistance and her ability to figure things out thus proving herself a vital member of the power trio. Rey isn't great because of who her parents are, at least as far as we know. She is great because of her skills, belief in herself, and her desire to do the right thing despite being born into some pretty terrible circumstances. It is the whole point of the everyman character that even if we do not have access to the Force we can still achieve greatness in our lives no matter where we are and where we come from. That our genetics don't matter. Only what we do with them. And I'm saying that's ludicrous. The Force is fiction. It doesn't exist. Therefore it doesn't matter how many layers of bullshit techno/fantasy babble you add to it, it's still just as "separate" from us by virtue of its nonexistence. It's also irrelevant because the relatablility of the characters doesn't map 1-1 to "I can do this too" anyway. The characters are special and are specifically set apart from those that are not, within the story. The degree of specificity in regards to the how of it is entirely superfluous. The arc is built on the characters being mundane and "just like you and me" by virtue of ignorance- they don't know they're special, until they hear the call to arms. But they are special nonetheless. So if you're that picky about it, you have to admit that they are special and you and I are (probably) not. In which case, why do the mechanics of the specialness matter? As for genetics and greatness in RL it's no worse a delusion than divine right (which something like the Force would map to closer), it's just been industrialized better. And just for fun I'll point out that if anything, the prequels dispel the notion of lineage based greatness rather than enforce or introduce it. In the original trilogy the major players in the Force are the Skywalkers. Ok you have the Emperor, Yoda and Obi-wan. But as the devil and mentor characters respectively they don't really count. One family of powerful Force users in the entire galaxy. Compare that to the prequels where there's Force users up the ass and we learn that that Force use is actually pretty randomized via space magic bacteria in our cells. Notice also the lack of lineage or genetics based concentrations- there are no powerful families or clans of Jedi, indeed families don't really exist as Jedi don't marry and there's only ever two Sith, and they're always dudes. Anakin is space Jesus, born to an otherwise completely mundane woman (Shmi) so even the Chosen One is random as fuck. "The Force runs strong in my family" Luke tells Leia in Jedi. But absolutely nobody has family in the prequels other than Anakin's mom who's killed almost offscreen as a plot device. So tell me again how the prequels (or midi-chlorians specifically) enforce genetic superiority. Actually the stated reason for the Jedi not having families in addition to the emotional entanglement was a desire for them to not create super Jedi, so their refusal to do so is very much in line with genetics considering they believe that people of Jedi parentage can lead to a much higher midi-chlorian count= much more powerful Jedi. The problem with midichlorians though, from my point of view, is it removes all the interesting things for character, like ability, ambition, talent, drive, or knowledge base and ability to learn more knowledge. It is all down to how many bacterial microbes you have in your blood stream. That's it. Your greatness is not up to you, it is up to something outside your control and well you can't be a great Jedi unless you have a high midichlorian count. Of course this could open up interesting narrative possibilities in its own right but it did not seem to be consistent with the original narrative intent of A New Hope. And of course at the end of the day everything we are might just boil down to our genetics, I choose to believe otherwise. The point behind everyman style stories is to give the audience something to aspire to. As I point out I feel midichlorians remove this possibility. Where indeed it is up to a characters ability or ability to adapt and overcome challenges around them, not their parents or their heritage or who their parents are. It is up to them. Yes, having chosen ones in this type of story are a way of easily distinguishing and creating a protagonist, but just because one is a choseon one, does not mean that we can't learn lessons from them and aspire to be like them because the everyman, is supposed to be an everyman. Harry Potter subverted this trope because Harry wasn't chosen by fate, God, destiny, or just because he was the most awesome character ever, (quite the contrary), he was chosen by Voldemort who misinterpreted a prophecy. Harry himself actually wasn't very special, was often the least intelligent, or capable Wizard in the room but he had determination, spunk, and again some of those same qualities from Voldy. Rey may very well be the chosen one of the Force to carry out its will and rise as a counter to Kylo and the darkness that is currently persistent throughout the galaxy, but the mere fact of her parentage, and her background suggests that anyone can be similarily 'chosen'. It does not matter what your bloodlines are or if you are important, even the smallest street rat can one day become important if they try ot it. As an aside I do wonder, and I do not expect we will get an answer narratively to this question but I have to wonder: Is Rey great because the Force chose her or is her greatness the reason why the Force chose her in the first place? Or even more alternatively is this whole chosen one aspect just another misinterpretation both internally and externally by fans who are looking for a chosen one? After all Yoda did say the very Chosen One prophecy could have been misread so maybe no one in Star Wars is a chosen one and awe are all just chasing our tails? Meanwhile Anakin is great because he has a lot of bacteria in his blood. Of course this could have led to interesting ideas as the whole Anakin thing did wind up as Darth Vader, but, Midichlorians weren't mentioned much after Episode I.
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