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Post by Melra on Feb 17, 2018 11:36:18 GMT
All these articles show is that people making Star Wars, especially nowadays, are horrible at taking criticism. "Oh you just hate women" how can you be so damn dense? It'd be same if it was a black or asian man "oh then you are just racist!". No matter the gender or race, Mary Sues will get hate and they should. It just shows these movies are very unlikely to improve, they are consumed by the ideology and will not see their mistakes before they've run the franchise into the ground.
Hopefully then someone sensible can buy it cheap and make it into something that one can properly enjoy.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Feb 17, 2018 13:15:21 GMT
All these articles show is that people making Star Wars, especially nowadays, are horrible at taking criticism. "Oh you just hate women" how can you be so damn dense? It'd be same if it was a black or asian man "oh then you are just racist!". No matter the gender or race, Mary Sues will get hate and they should. It just shows these movies are very unlikely to improve, they are consumed by the ideology and will not see their mistakes before they've run the franchise into the ground. Hopefully then someone sensible can buy it cheap and make it into something that one can properly enjoy. When a fanbase is divided, how do you know which criticism is the right one to take? Also, they did listen to criticism for 7. It was to much "A New Hope 2: Hope Harder 2". Then they went completely different for 8, now the complaint is "it's not Star Wars."
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Post by Andrew Waples on Feb 17, 2018 13:20:47 GMT
A. He's not wrong. Some fans clearly are threatened by women. Granted saying such a thing is a bit blunt and inaccuarate considering people aren't threatened by women, they just like em barefoot, pregnant, in the kitchen -or- exhibiting oddly masculine traits. Some of the commentary in this thread and the 'no women' cut of the Last Jedi proves that some fans don't view their attempts at writing complicated female characters with great enthusiasm. B. For those of us who liked TLJ this is likely welcome news. Granted a lot can change between now and whenever the heck Episode IX comes out BUT this is some small indication that he will not retcon the big plot decisions in TLJ. Which, is the more important of the news to bring up from the news, however I figured I would address the women comments anyways. No it's an excuse for directors to fall back on when faced with controversy. Sure there are some fans who are sexist, but there are major problems that many have with Rey and the other female characters. Things that you seem to ignore when people talk about them. No, he is right. Because there was someone on The Cantina forums saying the next protagonist should be a male, because the majority of Star Wars fans are male. However, to put all the hate into that umbrealla was wrong for him to do. JJ though, why did you put your two cents in to this? You got enough to worry about.
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Post by Melra on Feb 17, 2018 14:43:52 GMT
All these articles show is that people making Star Wars, especially nowadays, are horrible at taking criticism. "Oh you just hate women" how can you be so damn dense? It'd be same if it was a black or asian man "oh then you are just racist!". No matter the gender or race, Mary Sues will get hate and they should. It just shows these movies are very unlikely to improve, they are consumed by the ideology and will not see their mistakes before they've run the franchise into the ground. Hopefully then someone sensible can buy it cheap and make it into something that one can properly enjoy. When a fanbase is divided, how do you know which criticism is the right one to take? Also, they did listen to criticism for 7. It was to much "A New Hope 2: Hope Harder 2". Then they went completely different for 8, now the complaint is "it's not Star Wars." The Mary Sue bit is so obvious that, it's a miracle one can't even spot it themselves, but needs someone else to point it out for them. Anyone who disagrees with it, must be bit wrong in the head or completely taken in by the ideology. It does nothing to empower women when the character in question is a Mary Sue, absolutely nothing. Though it seems that the new writers are horrible at writing likable and believable female characters to begin with. They then have the balls to call people sexists and woman haters when in truth it is the product that they are putting out is utter shit. It's pointless to argue with you people when you use those same broad statements every single time, clearly it wasn't Star Wars. When you go and twist things that, if taken as canon, would have huge implications for the material that came before. It's as if I went and bought rights to Harry Potter or some other franchise and completely changed things up with complete disregard to the material written by Rowling and the movies she was involved in. When you create a world you put in place certain rules that help confine it and give it structure. You shouldn't toy with that structure lightly and that is exactly what they have done with these new movies and they haven't even done it in a way where it'd have a positive pay off for large amount of the viewers. The structure helps lay certain expectations for viewers and readers in terms of what they can expect to happen and what works or doesn't work in the said world. You can push on those boundaries if you do it well, think through the consequences and find out what kind of impact it has on the already existing material. Disney did none of it. They threw the pre-existing structure in the air, cut few massive holes in it and tried to sell it as something completely original. The setting is the same as in the past, only with updated graphics, far less interesting "players", almost same factions as before just with new coat of paint on it. Same things that may have been okay for the creators when they first made Star Wars, aren't necessarily acceptable now. A large part of the universe has been established already, small changes can have far reaching consequences and unless you are willing to tread that fine line and do something well, you shouldn't do it. Disney however is far too eager to make cash out of toys and by appealing to SJW crowd and ruining something dear to many people (them being largely (white) men is just a bonus for them).
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Post by Andrew Waples on Feb 17, 2018 15:23:17 GMT
When a fanbase is divided, how do you know which criticism is the right one to take? Also, they did listen to criticism for 7. It was to much "A New Hope 2: Hope Harder 2". Then they went completely different for 8, now the complaint is "it's not Star Wars." The Mary Sue bit is so obvious that, it's a miracle one can't even spot it themselves, but needs someone else to point it out for them. Anyone who disagrees with it, must be bit wrong in the head or completely taken in by the ideology. It does nothing to empower women when the character in question is a Mary Sue, absolutely nothing. Though it seems that the new writers are horrible at writing likable and believable female characters to begin with. They then have the balls to call people sexists and woman haters when in truth it is the product that they are putting out is utter shit. It's pointless to argue with you people when you use those same broad statements every single time, clearly it wasn't Star Wars. When you go and twist things that, if taken as canon, would have huge implications for the material that came before. It's as if I went and bought rights to Harry Potter or some other franchise and completely changed things up with complete disregard to the material written by Rowling and the movies she was involved in. When you create a world you put in place certain rules that help confine it and give it structure. You shouldn't toy with that structure lightly and that is exactly what they have done with these new movies and they haven't even done it in a way where it'd have a positive pay off for large amount of the viewers. The structure helps lay certain expectations for viewers and readers in terms of what they can expect to happen and what works or doesn't work in the said world. You can push on those boundaries if you do it well, think through the consequences and find out what kind of impact it has on the already existing material. Disney did none of it. They threw the pre-existing structure in the air, cut few massive holes in it and tried to sell it as something completely original. The setting is the same as in the past, only with updated graphics, far less interesting "players", almost same factions as before just with new coat of paint on it. Same things that may have been okay for the creators when they first made Star Wars, aren't necessarily acceptable now. A large part of the universe has been established already, small changes can have far reaching consequences and unless you are willing to tread that fine line and do something well, you shouldn't do it. Disney however is far too eager to make cash out of toys and by appealing to SJW crowd and ruining something dear to many people (them being largely (white) men is just a bonus for them). You know, I hope that if Rey was Ray people would be calling Ray a Gary Stu. It's been 40 some odd years since the originals. You don't except things to change in 40 years? Yes, the Disney executives twirling their evil mustaches and saying, "how can we ruin Star Wars for millions of people just to make a buck." That is their number one goal right there.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 17, 2018 16:16:37 GMT
No it's an excuse for directors to fall back on when faced with controversy. Sure there are some fans who are sexist, but there are major problems that many have with Rey and the other female characters. Things that you seem to ignore when people talk about them. No, he is right. Because there was someone on The Cantina forums saying the next protagonist should be a male, because the majority of Star Wars fans are male. However, to put all the hate into that umbrealla was wrong for him to do. JJ though, why did you put your two cents in to this? You got enough to worry about. And I say so what? Those guys are in a minority.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2018 16:41:19 GMT
JJ using the muhsoggyknee defense when there's a dubious number of people who didn't like TLJ because of the appearance of females, versus people disliking the obvious, and sloppy shoehorning of regressive social politics at the expense of a cohesive script and lore. Nevermind people just flat out disliking TLJ because they think it has a poorly written script, characters and disregard for the lore.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2018 18:39:53 GMT
A. He's not wrong. Some fans clearly are threatened by women. Granted saying such a thing is a bit blunt and inaccuarate considering people aren't threatened by women, they just like em barefoot, pregnant, in the kitchen -or- exhibiting oddly masculine traits. Some of the commentary in this thread and the 'no women' cut of the Last Jedi proves that some fans don't view their attempts at writing complicated female characters with great enthusiasm. B. For those of us who liked TLJ this is likely welcome news. Granted a lot can change between now and whenever the heck Episode IX comes out BUT this is some small indication that he will not retcon the big plot decisions in TLJ. Which, is the more important of the news to bring up from the news, however I figured I would address the women comments anyways. No it's an excuse for directors to fall back on when faced with controversy. Sure there are some fans who are sexist, but there are major problems that many have with Rey and the other female characters. Things that you seem to ignore when people talk about them. A. How do I ignore them? Have you actually bothered to read any of my posts? B. The problem is that a lot of criticisms, especially regarding Rey aren't useful. As an aspiring creative who is trying to learn I want my criticisms to be useful and something I can learn from. I imagine JJ being a creative is in much the same boat. He wants to learn from his mistakes as he has shown a capacity to do. Screaming that "Rey is a Mary Sue! " over and over again when she literally matches none of the useful definitions of the word is useless. Which brings me to my other point which people have actually been ignoring because it seems far easier to make a strawman out of my first one... this is the job that JJ is left with. If he has one weakness as a creative it's that he is very safe. The force awakens was not a copy of ANH, but it was a safe movie that channeled a lot of the tone of the OT. TLJ on the other hand pushed those boundaries and has thus pissed people off. It would be easy for JJ to just retcon things away but if is ignoring all the noise then it's likely he won't... which hopefully means we will have less noise to deal with.
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Post by fiannawolf on Feb 17, 2018 18:42:51 GMT
Yea, I don't know if JJ can even salvage the last movie. They really should have plotted this whole story as a complete trilogy before the start of filming.
Its disjointed at best.
Rey's setup is convoluted. She's not a particularly complex character in and of herself....
Its like she's a blank slate that they can throw whatever they need onto. It makes for lackluster storytelling. But then again, TLJ did this to all of them to some extent or another. Or even worse, out of character. Poe, Luke, even Finn. RJ did not understand star wars or even what the previous movie was setting up.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2018 19:27:43 GMT
Yea, I don't know if JJ can even salvage the last movie. They really should have plotted this whole story as a complete trilogy before the start of filming. Its disjointed at best. Rey's setup is convoluted. She's not a particularly complex character in and of herself.... Its like she's a blank slate that they can throw whatever they need onto. It makes for lackluster storytelling. But then again, TLJ did this to all of them to some extent or another. Or even worse, out of character. Poe, Luke, even Finn. RJ did not understand star wars or even what the previous movie was setting up. Disney wanted a trilogy but they didn't plot out an overarching story beyond TFA because "fuck you pay me". They can slap the Star Wars title on anything and people will gooble it up. About Rey's setup, it's not convoluted it's just repetitive.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 17, 2018 19:51:44 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2018 19:54:07 GMT
Yea, I don't know if JJ can even salvage the last movie. They really should have plotted this whole story as a complete trilogy before the start of filming. Its disjointed at best. Rey's setup is convoluted. She's not a particularly complex character in and of herself.... Its like she's a blank slate that they can throw whatever they need onto. It makes for lackluster storytelling. But then again, TLJ did this to all of them to some extent or another. Or even worse, out of character. Poe, Luke, even Finn. RJ did not understand star wars or even what the previous movie was setting up. Disney wanted a trilogy but they didn't plot out an overarching story beyond TFA because "fuck you pay me". They can slap the Star Wars title on anything and people will gooble it up. About Rey's setup, it's not convoluted it's just repetitive. Backloading a story is possible as long as everything still flows.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2018 20:17:24 GMT
Disney wanted a trilogy but they didn't plot out an overarching story beyond TFA because "fuck you pay me". They can slap the Star Wars title on anything and people will gooble it up. About Rey's setup, it's not convoluted it's just repetitive. Backloading a story is possible as long as everything still flows. Flows like a toilet water flooding. Interdictor ships from Legends are still canon but there's no explaination as to why the FO didn't build a half dozen ships even though they're using the same manufacturer as the old Empire. Disney should have never incorporated Gravity Well Projectors into their canon because their lax attitude towards lore consistency will only lead to the creation of more plotholes.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 17, 2018 20:29:43 GMT
Backloading a story is possible as long as everything still flows. Flows like a toilet water flooding... Disney should have never incorporated Gravity Well Projectors into their canon because their lax attitude towards lore consistency will only lead to the creation of more plotholes. These story-group broads don't give a shit about the lore. They don't give a shit about the fans, or the characters or the overall legacy of the Star Wars brand. All they are concerned with is profit & their political-bullshit-agenda. This is why the sequels are filled with nonsense plot-points & random characters, yet the marketing and product "tie-ins" are stronger and more ubiquitous than ever. It is a goddamned shame. Makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2018 20:58:04 GMT
Flows like a toilet water flooding... Disney should have never incorporated Gravity Well Projectors into their canon because their lax attitude towards lore consistency will only lead to the creation of more plotholes. These story-group broads don't give a shit about the lore. They don't give a shit about the fans, or the characters or the overall legacy of the Star Wars brand. All they are concerned with is profit & their political-bullshit-agenda. This is why the sequels are filled with nonsense plot-points & random characters, yet the marketing and product "tie-ins" are stronger and more ubiquitous than ever. It is a goddamned shame. Makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it This, plus instead of wasting money on a 37 mile wide ship Snoke could have brought a dreadnought for himself, some more cruisers, and few Interdictors in order to spare the fleet from a hours long White Bronco chase through space followed by cataclysmic LS kamikaze reaming.This genuinely makes me question how the FO survived as long as it did with their leadership.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 17, 2018 22:24:01 GMT
No it's an excuse for directors to fall back on when faced with controversy. Sure there are some fans who are sexist, but there are major problems that many have with Rey and the other female characters. Things that you seem to ignore when people talk about them. B. The problem is that a lot of criticisms, especially regarding Rey aren't useful. As an aspiring creative who is trying to learn I want my criticisms to be useful and something I can learn from. I imagine JJ being a creative is in much the same boat. He wants to learn from his mistakes as he has shown a capacity to do. Screaming that "Rey is a Mary Sue! " over and over again when she literally matches none of the useful definitions of the word is useless. Except it's nit just screaming "Mary Sue!" Numerous example of why have been cited from both movies. Including comparisons between Rey and Luke, Anakin, and other characters but classic and Legends/EU.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 22:24:50 GMT
This genuinely makes me question how the FO survived as long as it did with their leadership. Probably thanks to the sheer genius of general Weasley. Nah nothing so obvious. The FO have Plot Armour that's how they've lasted so long.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2018 23:06:28 GMT
Actually now that I think about it the lore behind intrediction in Star Wars is a bit weird and inconsistent to begin with.
Star Wars lore: Its impossible to track ships through hyperspace!
Also Star Wars lore: But there exisist ships that can pull ships out of hyperspace...somehow! (Yes, I know they use gravity but if you can't track a ships location while they are in hyperspacethen how do they know they are 'there'. Maybe I am just missing something after all Rebels did deal with this concept.)
Now why the First Order didn't use them, or couldn't have used them in the Battle of the White Bronco, logically, they did not know where they were or where they were going so they did not have enough time to set a trap or the First Order (being the tactical geniuses they are) considered it more important to build Star Destroyers to protect their big assets considering, I believe anyways, Intedictors are usually specialist vessels that are lightly armed. Interdiction technology is also furthermore irrelevant if you know where your enemies are going to emerge from Hyper Space anyways.
As for them wasting resources on the Supremacy: I assume that those making the argument have not read any of the new lore on the subject. The Supremacy also acts as a mobile shipyard/ command base for the First Order. Which makes sense given the FO is essentially a terrorist organization so they have to stay mobile, and it likely has to be that big in order to facilitate all the facilities it has.
As for the leadership of the FO, I'd take Kylo Ren, Snoke and Hux over Piett and Ozzel any day of the week. (Though, I suppose I'd take Thrawn overany of them)
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Post by Iakus on Feb 17, 2018 23:45:53 GMT
Actually now that I think about it the lore behind intrediction in Star Wars is a bit weird and inconsistent to begin with. Star Wars lore: Its impossible to track ships through hyperspace! Also Star Wars lore: But there exisist ships that can pull ships out of hyperspace...somehow! (Yes, I know they use gravity but if you can't track a ships location while they are in hyperspacethen how do they know they are 'there'. Maybe I am just missing something after all Rebels did deal with this concept.) I don't know how Rebels dealt with it, but the lore I am familiar with says that ships travel along mapped routes in space (so they don't fly through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and end their trip really quick) When Interdictors pull ships out of hyperspace, they lay in wait along those routs with their gravity projectors going. They'd still need to know WHEN to be there, but enemy routes can be predicted based on origin and destination. More often, though, they were simply used to keep ships from escaping into hyperspace to begin with.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 18, 2018 0:18:20 GMT
Actually now that I think about it the lore behind intrediction in Star Wars is a bit weird and inconsistent to begin with. Star Wars lore: Its impossible to track ships through hyperspace! Also Star Wars lore: But there exisist ships that can pull ships out of hyperspace...somehow! (Yes, I know they use gravity but if you can't track a ships location while they are in hyperspacethen how do they know they are 'there'. Maybe I am just missing something after all Rebels did deal with this concept.) I don't know how Rebels dealt with it, but the lore I am familiar with says that ships travel along mapped routes in space (so they don't fly through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and end their trip really quick) When Interdictors pull ships out of hyperspace, they lay in wait along those routs with their gravity projectors going. They'd still need to know WHEN to be there, but enemy routes can be predicted based on origin and destination. More often, though, they were simply used to keep ships from escaping into hyperspace to begin with. Interdictor ships were primarily used in blockades to cut off escape routes, and emittted artificial gravity wells within a radius that prevented hyperspace jumping. Thanks to JJ not giving a damn you got Han jumping behind Starkiller's shields despite it being a literal star which should have emittted a gravity well, and RJ's LSM needs no explaination. I don't know if Gareth Edwards brushed up on the lore surrounding hyperdrive tech limitations in RO but i'm pleasantly surprised that he didn't have the rebels use hyperspace to bypass Scarif's planetary shield.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2018 1:18:22 GMT
Ah there it is. I knew I was forgetting something.
Still as it pertains to TLJ it likely wouldn't have worked either.
A. The Resistance wasn't going anywhere anyways, everyone knew that, they weren't going to flee into hyperspace. B. The First Order already had effective technology which was making it difficult for them to escape effectively anyways. Intedictor tech would probably be more expensive and more of a resource waste then their tracker. C. We just do not know what goes into making an intedictor. My familiarity with SWs Lore is a bit inconsistent both across Canon and Legends but to my knowledge Intedictor ships were few and far between indicating their was some obstacle to mass producing the vessels as much as non intedictor ships. Only the Yuuzhan Vong seemed to have easily deployable intedictor tech.
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Post by Evil on Feb 18, 2018 1:57:13 GMT
C. We just do not know what goes into making an intedictor. My familiarity with SWs Lore is a bit inconsistent both across Canon and Legends but to my knowledge Intedictor ships were few and far between indicating their was some obstacle to mass producing the vessels as much as non intedictor ships. Only the Yuuzhan Vong seemed to have easily deployable intedictor tech. AFAIK part of the reason interdictors were rare is that they had the same kind of crew requirements and resource costs as a capital ship of equivalent size, but didn't have as much offensive power because of all the internal space taken up by the gravity well generators. If you were building a star destroyer sized ship to use standalone in system patrol or suchlike would you give up roughly five sixths of its fighter capacity and half of your turbolasers and ion cannons just to gain gravity wells? A few were built to be used as support for fleets and task groups AFAIK since one set of grav wells would be enough for the whole groups needs. Which begs the question: Was there 1 or more interdictors at the battle of endor? I never saw any, but that's exactly the kind of operation they'd be useful for.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 18, 2018 2:16:01 GMT
Probably thanks to the sheer genius of general Weasley. Nah nothing so obvious. The FO have Plot Armour that's how they've lasted so long. Goddamn it... Episode 8 broke my heart. Now I am counting on Ron Howard of all people to put my fandom at ease. Never imagined this is how I'd feel between the second sequel & the second anthology flick
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2018 2:50:41 GMT
C. We just do not know what goes into making an intedictor. My familiarity with SWs Lore is a bit inconsistent both across Canon and Legends but to my knowledge Intedictor ships were few and far between indicating their was some obstacle to mass producing the vessels as much as non intedictor ships. Only the Yuuzhan Vong seemed to have easily deployable intedictor tech. AFAIK part of the reason interdictors were rare is that they had the same kind of crew requirements and resource costs as a capital ship of equivalent size, but didn't have as much offensive power because of all the internal space taken up by the gravity well generators. If you were building a star destroyer sized ship to use standalone in system patrol or suchlike would you give up roughly five sixths of its fighter capacity and half of your turbolasers and ion cannons just to gain gravity wells? A few were built to be used as support for fleets and task groups AFAIK since one set of grav wells would be enough for the whole groups needs. Which begs the question: Was there 1 or more interdictors at the battle of endor? I never saw any, but that's exactly the kind of operation they'd be useful for. There probably were but I don't think intedictors were a thing back then.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Feb 18, 2018 3:01:07 GMT
Nah nothing so obvious. The FO have Plot Armour that's how they've lasted so long. Goddamn it... Episode 8 broke my heart. Now I am counting on Ron Howard of all people to put my fandom at ease. Never imagined this is how I'd feel between the second sequel & the second anthology flick If there is any good thing out of Solo's production is that shockingly their still gonna hit May 25th. I'm still excepting it to be delayed.
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