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Post by alanc9 on Apr 10, 2018 15:08:41 GMT
Hard to make an argument out of that. If someone else didn't have that "WTF?" feeling, there's no way to make him. I suppose you can get him to an intellectual understanding of why you did, though.
Sort of like having a political debate with someone who doesn't share your Haidt foundations.
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 10, 2018 17:15:19 GMT
Hard to make an argument out of that. If someone else didn't have that "WTF?" feeling, there's no way to make him. I suppose you can get him to an intellectual understanding of why you did, though. Sort of like having a political debate with someone who doesn't share your Haidt foundations. This is the truth; People who actually, genuinely liked episode 8 are not just casual Star Wars fans, they are casual film-goers. The obvious reason for this that episode 8 violates many basic screenwriting guidelines to the point of childish nonsense, and the ones it leaves intact it parodies
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Post by legbamel on Apr 11, 2018 1:54:56 GMT
Hard to make an argument out of that. If someone else didn't have that "WTF?" feeling, there's no way to make him. I suppose you can get him to an intellectual understanding of why you did, though. Sort of like having a political debate with someone who doesn't share your Haidt foundations. This is the truth; People who actually, genuinely liked episode 8 are not just casual Star Wars fans, they are casual film-goers. The obvious reason for this that episode 8 violates many basic screenwriting guidelines to the point of childish nonsense, and the ones it leaves intact it parodies So I'm not just wrong, I'm a stupid noob if I liked TLJ? Yeah. I've only been a fan for forty years. It can't possibly be that I like something you don't and that for some reason really chaps your hide. Not everyone shares your opinion. Let it go. Every once in a while this thread actually turns into a discussion about the Star Wars universe, lore, and upcoming media. Then the ranting, hissy fit throwing, and insults start again. I think it must be time to abandon this thread entirely. [heavy sigh]
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2018 2:24:47 GMT
Hard to make an argument out of that. If someone else didn't have that "WTF?" feeling, there's no way to make him. I suppose you can get him to an intellectual understanding of why you did, though. Sort of like having a political debate with someone who doesn't share your Haidt foundations. This is the truth; People who actually, genuinely liked episode 8 are not just casual Star Wars fans, they are casual film-goers. The obvious reason for this that episode 8 violates many basic screenwriting guidelines to the point of childish nonsense, and the ones it leaves intact it parodies Am I supposed to take this statement at face-value? It's so obviously stupid that I can't believe that it's supposed to be taken seriously, but I don't know where you're going with it if I'm not.
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Post by Hier0phant on Apr 11, 2018 3:20:02 GMT
Hard to make an argument out of that. If someone else didn't have that "WTF?" feeling, there's no way to make him. I suppose you can get him to an intellectual understanding of why you did, though. Sort of like having a political debate with someone who doesn't share your Haidt foundations. This is the truth; People who actually, genuinely liked episode 8 are not just casual Star Wars fans, they are casual film-goers. The obvious reason for this that episode 8 violates many basic screenwriting guidelines to the point of childish nonsense, and the ones it leaves intact it parodies Rose Tico cr iticized Finn for not thinking about anyone beyond his self interests. Finn inspired by her words and adventure on Bespin 2.0 finds the resolve to sacrifice himself in order to buy the La Resistance some breathing room against the FO. Seeing Finn about to make the ultimate sacrifice Rose miraculously overtakes, and kamikazes into his vehicle before he was vaporized by the FO's battering ram laser cannon. When asked why she doomed the Last Resistance Rose states that they win not by fighting what they hate but by saving what they love (lol wtf) dooming the rebels to certain annihilation through her selfish infatuation with Finn, completely contradicting her early criticism of him. Bravo Rian.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2018 3:52:25 GMT
This is the truth; People who actually, genuinely liked episode 8 are not just casual Star Wars fans, they are casual film-goers. The obvious reason for this that episode 8 violates many basic screenwriting guidelines to the point of childish nonsense, and the ones it leaves intact it parodies Rose Tico cr iticized Finn for not thinking about anyone beyond his self interests. Finn inspired by her words and adventure on Bespin 2.0 finds the resolve to sacrifice himself in order to buy the La Resistance some breathing room against the FO. Seeing Finn about to make the ultimate sacrifice Rose miraculously overtakes, and kamikazes into his vehicle before he was vaporized by the FO's battering ram laser cannon. When asked why she doomed the Last Resistance Rose states that they win not by fighting what they hate but by saving what they love (lol wtf) dooming the rebels to certain annihilation through her selfish infatuation with Finn, completely contradicting her early criticism of him. Bravo Rian.
A. The way I saw the scene Finn would have been blown up when the weapon fired -or- shot down anyways -or- his piddily little worn down piece of junk fighter wouldn't have made a dent either way even if he had flown it right into the thing. The Resistance was 'doomed' anyways, Finn wasn't going to save them and Poe saw that which is why he ordered the retreat in the first place. B. The Resistance's previous sacrifices had done jack shit to actually help them up to that point. Poe sacrificed an entire bomber squadron and a good deal of the Resistance's fighter complement, blew up a Dreadnaught...and the First Order just followed them anyways. Rose, being the smart cookie she was, would have likely realized that especially given the family she lost in the first battle. C. Rose's advice to Finn was really important for us to consider as an audience. Granted I would have preffered Rian changed a few things around in the narrative and put it in a different place but the advice itself was sound.
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Post by Hier0phant on Apr 11, 2018 4:51:08 GMT
Rose Tico cr iticized Finn for not thinking about anyone beyond his self interests. Finn inspired by her words and adventure on Bespin 2.0 finds the resolve to sacrifice himself in order to buy the La Resistance some breathing room against the FO. Seeing Finn about to make the ultimate sacrifice Rose miraculously overtakes, and kamikazes into his vehicle before he was vaporized by the FO's battering ram laser cannon. When asked why she doomed the Last Resistance Rose states that they win not by fighting what they hate but by saving what they love (lol wtf) dooming the rebels to certain annihilation through her selfish infatuation with Finn, completely contradicting her early criticism of him. Bravo Rian.
A. The way I saw the scene Finn would have been blown up when the weapon fired -or- shot down anyways -or- his piddily little worn down piece of junk fighter wouldn't have made a dent either way even if he had flown it right into the thing. The Resistance was 'doomed' anyways, Finn wasn't going to save them and Poe saw that which is why he ordered the retreat in the first place. B. The Resistance's previous sacrifices had done jack shit to actually help them up to that point. Poe sacrificed an entire bomber squadron and a good deal of the Resistance's fighter complement, blew up a Dreadnaught...and the First Order just followed them anyways. Rose, being the smart cookie she was, would have likely realized that especially given the family she lost in the first battle. C. Rose's advice to Finn was really important for us to consider as an audience. Granted I would have preffered Rian changed a few things around in the narrative and put it in a different place but the advice itself was sound. Finn succeeding isn't the issue with the scenario it's the conflicting messages Tico gives Finn on Canto, and Crait. Finn's attemped sacrifice was a selfless act whereas hers was selfish as evidenced by the saving those you love bit. Mind you Poe sacrificed a bomber squadron but it wasn't a wasted sacrifice since he unintentionally saved the fleet from being destroyed before it reached Crait. Imagine the type of firepower that dreadnought would have added to the FO's fleet during the rebels white Bronco chase sequence. Now Rose's statement becomes even more absurd when you consider how dire their situation was, the FO's genocidal intentions for their surviving comrades, and her not knowing about Luke's arrival. Then there's the contradiction with the PT & OT in which the heroes unflinchingly killed their enemies in order to save their allies and friends, with Luke converting Vader being a notable exception.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2018 8:25:50 GMT
The way I saw the scene Finn would have been blown up when the weapon fired -or- shot down anyways -or- his piddily little worn down piece of junk fighter wouldn't have made a dent either way even if he had flown it right into the thing. The Resistance was 'doomed' anyways, Finn wasn't going to save them and Poe saw that which is why he ordered the retreat in the first place. Assuming that both of them have more or less the same knowledge, why would he believe that he could do it (or at least had a chance to) while she knew for certain that he couldn't? In a realistic scenario this would be a worthy trade, one dead grunt with dubious value for possibly saving many more. C. Rose's advice to Finn was really important for us to consider as an audience. Granted I would have preffered Rian changed a few things around in the narrative and put it in a different place but the advice itself was sound. "Important for us to consider as an audience."?... I'm sorry, I find it hard to take any kind of preaching from Hollywood seriously. Not to mention that the inane message itself makes literally zero sense in that context. Assuming that diplomatic options are no longer available, in a war, you literally save what you love by destroying what you hate. (especially when fighting an enemy that, you know, literally likes to destroy planets with a lot of people that love each other very much on them...) The idiocy of that statement is certainly notable even inside a movie as terrible as TLJ. Ah thank you for reminding me I did want to mention something else. Even if Finn did succeed it would have done jack squat to save the Resistance they would have still been very screwed unless events played out how they did anyways. So the weapon does not go off and does not breach the walls...then what? The FO would have been sitting outside the doors, they still would have been under siege with no way out, they still would have been running out of food and supplies, they still would have been waiting for allies (which never showed up,) and they still would have needed Luke and Rey to save their arses anyways. Finn's sacrifice would have meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just like Poe sacrificing his bombers meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just like Holdo sacrificing herself meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. All it did was buy the Resistance some time. The only sacrifice which mattered was Luke's. Its about the mind set of the sitation and the morality behind it then the actual practical applications. Yes, of course war is about destroying your enemy but the Last Jedi showed, again through the fact that the 'sacrifices' that the Resistance hardly slowed the enemy down...that you can't just throw yourself at the enemy and throw your lives away. Is the message hamfisted? Yeah probably, as I said I would have put it in a different place entirely if I were writing the movie but the Resistance was left with barely enough people to fit on the Millenium Falcon at the end of the movie. They started out with over four hundred. In large part because Poe was fighting what he hated, with no regard to what he loved.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 11, 2018 10:18:16 GMT
This is the truth; People who actually, genuinely liked episode 8 are not just casual Star Wars fans, they are casual film-goers. The obvious reason for this that episode 8 violates many basic screenwriting guidelines to the point of childish nonsense, and the ones it leaves intact it parodies So I'm not just wrong, I'm a stupid noob if I liked TLJ? Yeah. I've only been a fan for forty years. It can't possibly be that I like something you don't and that for some reason really chaps your hide. Not everyone shares your opinion. Let it go. Every once in a while this thread actually turns into a discussion about the Star Wars universe, lore, and upcoming media. Then the ranting, hissy fit throwing, and insults start again. I think it must be time to abandon this thread entirely. [heavy sigh] I'm with you, I've enjoyed every Star Wars movie so far, so it's likely I'll enjoy the next two. (puts on mod hat) And this thread is absolutely for those who enjoy various episodes as well as for those who don't.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 15:59:56 GMT
Rose Tico cr iticized Finn for not thinking about anyone beyond his self interests. Finn inspired by her words and adventure on Bespin 2.0 finds the resolve to sacrifice himself in order to buy the La Resistance some breathing room against the FO. Seeing Finn about to make the ultimate sacrifice Rose miraculously overtakes, and kamikazes into his vehicle before he was vaporized by the FO's battering ram laser cannon. When asked why she doomed the Last Resistance Rose states that they win not by fighting what they hate but by saving what they love (lol wtf) dooming the rebels to certain annihilation through her selfish infatuation with Finn, completely contradicting her early criticism of him. Bravo Rian.
A. The way I saw the scene Finn would have been blown up when the weapon fired -or- shot down anyways -or- his piddily little worn down piece of junk fighter wouldn't have made a dent either way even if he had flown it right into the thing. The Resistance was 'doomed' anyways, Finn wasn't going to save them and Poe saw that which is why he ordered the retreat in the first place. B. The Resistance's previous sacrifices had done jack shit to actually help them up to that point. Poe sacrificed an entire bomber squadron and a good deal of the Resistance's fighter complement, blew up a Dreadnaught...and the First Order just followed them anyways. Rose, being the smart cookie she was, would have likely realized that especially given the family she lost in the first battle. C. Rose's advice to Finn was really important for us to consider as an audience. Granted I would have preffered Rian changed a few things around in the narrative and put it in a different place but the advice itself was sound. Poe was sacrificing other people's lives. Finn was only risking his own.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 16:06:32 GMT
Assuming that both of them have more or less the same knowledge, why would he believe that he could do it (or at least had a chance to) while she knew for certain that he couldn't? In a realistic scenario this would be a worthy trade, one dead grunt with dubious value for possibly saving many more. "Important for us to consider as an audience."?... I'm sorry, I find it hard to take any kind of preaching from Hollywood seriously. Not to mention that the inane message itself makes literally zero sense in that context. Assuming that diplomatic options are no longer available, in a war, you literally save what you love by destroying what you hate. (especially when fighting an enemy that, you know, literally likes to destroy planets with a lot of people that love each other very much on them...) The idiocy of that statement is certainly notable even inside a movie as terrible as TLJ. Ah thank you for reminding me I did want to mention something else. Even if Finn did succeed it would have done jack squat to save the Resistance they would have still been very screwed unless events played out how they did anyways. So the weapon does not go off and does not breach the walls...then what? The FO would have been sitting outside the doors, they still would have been under siege with no way out, they still would have been running out of food and supplies, they still would have been waiting for allies (which never showed up,) and they still would have needed Luke and Rey to save their arses anyways. Finn's sacrifice would have meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. Well, Luke wouldn't have had to stroke out doing a Force-Lightshow for Kylo... Jyn Erso: If we can make it to the ground, we'll take the next chance. And the next. On and on until we win... or the chances are spent.Such a philosophy pretty much spits on Jyn Erso and everyone who died getting the Death Star plans, the pilots who died trying to blow up the Death Star (both Death Stars really)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 16:48:38 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 11, 2018 17:04:29 GMT
This is the truth; People who actually, genuinely liked episode 8 are not just casual Star Wars fans, they are casual film-goers. The obvious reason for this that episode 8 violates many basic screenwriting guidelines to the point of childish nonsense, and the ones it leaves intact it parodies Rose Tico cr iticized Finn for not thinking about anyone beyond his self interests. Finn inspired by her words and adventure on Bespin 2.0 finds the resolve to sacrifice himself in order to buy the La Resistance some breathing room against the FO. Seeing Finn about to make the ultimate sacrifice Rose miraculously overtakes, and kamikazes into his vehicle before he was vaporized by the FO's battering ram laser cannon. When asked why she doomed the Last Resistance Rose states that they win not by fighting what they hate but by saving what they love (lol wtf) dooming the rebels to certain annihilation through her selfish infatuation with Finn, completely contradicting her early criticism of him. Bravo Rian.
This post reflects my thoughts exactly TM
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 11, 2018 17:11:31 GMT
This is the truth; People who actually, genuinely liked episode 8 are not just casual Star Wars fans, they are casual film-goers. The obvious reason for this that episode 8 violates many basic screenwriting guidelines to the point of childish nonsense, and the ones it leaves intact it parodies So I'm not just wrong, I'm a stupid noob if I liked TLJ?
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Post by Sifr on Apr 11, 2018 18:21:38 GMT
The Star Wars fandom in a nutshell; The Force Awakens was a shameless rehash of previous films... BOO! The Last Jedi was unlike any of the previous films... BOO! We're very easy to please, aren't we?
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 11, 2018 18:26:17 GMT
The Star Wars fandom in a nutshell; The Force Awakens was a shameless rehash of previous films... BOO! The Last Jedi was unlike any of the previous films... BOO! We're very easy to please, aren't we? For the record, other than Starkiller base, I liked episode 7 Also, there's a difference between trying to do some new things WITHIN the established lore & going full retard (also, I LIKED the Luke & Leia stuff in episode 8. The rest of it... not so much)
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 18:41:19 GMT
The Star Wars fandom in a nutshell; The Force Awakens was a shameless rehash of previous films... BOO! The Last Jedi was unlike any of the previous films... BOO! We're very easy to please, aren't we? More like:
The Force Awakens was a cheap knockoff of A New Hope!
The Last Jedi was badly written fanfiction!
When all that was wanted was, you know, QUALITY!
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Post by Sifr on Apr 11, 2018 18:45:00 GMT
Maybe, like the prequel Jedi, the fandom needs to descend from their ivory tower and remember that the original films had plenty of plot contrivances, bad writing and just plain weird moments that made no sense.
Cause really, does Luke being the son of Vader and Leia being his long-long twin sister not sound like bad fanfiction to anyone?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 18:49:38 GMT
Maybe, like the prequel Jedi, the fandom needs to descend from their ivory tower and remember that the original films had plenty of plot contrivances, bad writing and just plain weird moments that made no sense.
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Post by masterwarderz on Apr 11, 2018 19:39:11 GMT
Maybe, like the prequel Jedi, the fandom needs to descend from their ivory tower Or maybe the newer fans just need to accept better then: Rey, TFA and some of the nonsensical garbage writing I have seen outside of Ayn Rand.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 11, 2018 19:57:33 GMT
For Xbox-playing Star Wars fans, the following games are becoming backwards compatible on April 26:
Star Wars Battlefront
Star Wars Battlefront II
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Star Wars Jedi Starfighter
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Star Wars Republic Commando
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 20:43:59 GMT
For Xbox-playing Star Wars fans, the following games are becoming backwards compatible on April 26: Star Wars Battlefront Star Wars Battlefront II Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy Star Wars Jedi Starfighter Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Star Wars Republic Commando I posted a link on the previous page regarding this. I'm pleasantly surprised that we're getting the OG Battlefronts.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2018 21:42:38 GMT
The Star Wars fandom in a nutshell; The Force Awakens was a shameless rehash of previous films... BOO! The Last Jedi was unlike any of the previous films... BOO! We're very easy to please, aren't we? More like:
The Force Awakens was a cheap knockoff of A New Hope!
The Last Jedi was badly written fanfiction!
When all that was wanted was, you know, QUALITY!
That's an interesting charge. Normally I have seen fanfiction, especially badly written fanfiction, in two ways. One as just purely random nonsense. Ie Kirk and Spock read twenty first century social media. Ie...Wait that example is more example two... Or two, wish fulfilment. Ie Mary Sue, represented by some fan girl who has a crush on Luke decides to write herself as a member of the Jedi Order, somehow saves Luke, and then is deflowered by him. As far as TLJ is concerned the HISHE skit on the movie, while cool,funny, and obviously parody I remember sitting there thinking "is that what fandom wants?" In so much as it was an echo of Luke's words to Rey at the beginning of the movie. In essence it was wish fulfillment fanfiction at its finest.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 12, 2018 4:19:09 GMT
Maybe, like the prequel Jedi, the fandom needs to descend from their ivory tower and remember that the original films had plenty of plot contrivances, bad writing and just plain weird moments that made no sense. Cause really, does Luke being the son of Vader and Leia being his long-long twin sister not sound like bad fanfiction to anyone?
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