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Post by alanc9 on Apr 28, 2018 5:23:58 GMT
APM?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 28, 2018 5:27:16 GMT
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 28, 2018 5:58:07 GMT
Am I too attached to the characters I remember? Am I too old-fashioned and the sexual parity of the prequels (and even ANH for its time, really) was obviously not enough? The... sexual parity?
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 28, 2018 5:59:02 GMT
Isn't it The Phantom Menace?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 28, 2018 6:16:48 GMT
Isn't it The Phantom Menace? It is. I was just guessing what it meant.
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 28, 2018 6:58:07 GMT
I cant speak för the pölitics öf öther cöuntries. But this mövie is öne öf the möst far left prögressive mövies I have seen in a löng while. Especially för a sci fi actiön adventure mövie. At least fröm my American pröspective. Depends on what part of America you're from, of course. Here in the Northeast nobody sees anything particularly left-wing about the film. Inclusive, sure, but that's not seen as left-wing anymore, merely proper. I presume you'd see the same response on most of the West Coast.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Apr 28, 2018 7:57:50 GMT
Depends on what part of America you're from, of course. Here in the Northeast nobody sees anything particularly left-wing about the film. Inclusive, sure, but that's not seen as left-wing anymore, merely proper. I presume you'd see the same response on most of the West Coast. Personally, I've never felt alan's brain seemed little. Funny maybe, but only in the best sense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2018 8:49:37 GMT
I cant speak för the pölitics öf öther cöuntries. But this mövie is öne öf the möst far left prögressive mövies I have seen in a löng while. Especially för a sci fi actiön adventure mövie. At least fröm my American pröspective. Depends on what part of America you're from, of course. Here in the Northeast nobody sees anything particularly left-wing about the film. Inclusive, sure, but that's not seen as left-wing anymore, merely proper. I presume you'd see the same response on most of the West Coast. (You can also read it as populist, but that doesn't map very well onto left-right anymore.) Hey, Snaggletoöth, I've been meaning to ask... what's with the umlauts? Just because peöple agree with the pölitics öf the film in certain places döesnt make it any less left leaning. För example. If a film was prö gun, prö life and anti illegal immigratiön it wöuldn’t make it any less right wing if i saw the mövie in the boön döcks öf Alabama ör smack dab in the middle öf San Franciscö. The peöple öf Alabama might nöt see it as right wing because they agree with it. But that döesnt make it any less right wing. I've been wondering too.. Just too polite to ask I'll take a stab and say it's a Motorhead homage thing. Yes it is. I live by the the mantra öf “Börn tö löse, live tö win” Motörhead is my favörite band öf all time. Lemmy was a true öriginal. My name Snaggletoöth is the name öf the dög creature mascöt that is my avatar and ön almöst every Motörhead album.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2018 12:37:36 GMT
I'd say that it isn't so much that ME2 became worse due to ME3's ending, but something as with that kind of impact (positive or negative) is going to (some degree) color your perception of the rest. I agree with this. ME3's Ending drew a long shadow over the rest of the trilogy, and for a while I had problems playing through the games knowing how the whole story would cap off. TLJ is in very much the same situation, at least for me. Ignoring my other issues with it, the biggest sin it committed was that it effectively nuked my interest in any films going forward, sans Solo which I will gauge whether or not I myself take a break from the franchise for the time being. At this point, I am content with simply leaving TLJ behind, much as I did ME3's ending. It left such a bitter taste in my own mouth that I've lost a bit of my taste for the deliciousness that has come before.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 28, 2018 14:11:08 GMT
Am I too attached to the characters I remember? Am I too old-fashioned and the sexual parity of the prequels (and even ANH for its time, really) was obviously not enough? The... sexual parity? Ok, typing on phone in traffic is not only difficult and stupid, it also poorly expresses my thought. Sexual parity - parity of the sexes, as far as power level goes. There is no advantage in Star Wars having a penis.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 28, 2018 14:16:03 GMT
Here's a shocker: I went and saw APM six times in the theater. It was a slow summer for me Got you beat. 9 times for me. I was all of 9 years old, so most of them I was brought along by relatives. Two times with my nuclear family, then a few times with just my sisters, a couple of times various aunts, uncles and cousins. Frankly, I think my parents just used it as a glorified method of babysitting so they could have a few hours sans kids. It worked. The only film to mach that number for me was Fellowship of the Ring. My oldest sister is a LotR maniac, so she was the driving force. I went with her every time because I had nothing better to do, and my parents had a bag of holding that was overflowing with cash. Or so I thought at the time. The only other films I've seen more than once in theaters were Revenge of the Sith(5 times), The Avengers(5 times) and Avatar(3 times). The older I get, the less inclined I am to spend an evening at the theater. Stupid regular 8-5 job. At least when I was an hourly working stiff, I could count on the occasional weekday to head into a matinee for 5 bucks. I was.... 28 Had just moved to Atlanta, knew nobody, and had a job. Literally nothing else to do than watch and rewatch a movie I felt really strangely about. It was good and terrible. It was fantastic and the worst. Watching TFA, I had only the negative impressions.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 28, 2018 15:28:15 GMT
Depends on what part of America you're from, of course. Here in the Northeast nobody sees anything particularly left-wing about the film. Inclusive, sure, but that's not seen as left-wing anymore, merely proper. I presume you'd see the same response on most of the West Coast. (You can also read it as populist, but that doesn't map very well onto left-right anymore.) Hey, Snaggletoöth, I've been meaning to ask... what's with the umlauts? Just because peöple agree with the pölitics öf the film in certain places döesnt make it any less left leaning. För example. If a film was prö gun, prö life and anti illegal immigratiön it wöuldn’t make it any less right wing if i saw the mövie in the boön döcks öf Alabama ör smack dab in the middle öf San Franciscö. The peöple öf Alabama might nöt see it as right wing because they agree with it. But that döesnt make it any less right wing. We were discussing perspectives, were we not? I was simply pointing out that the film isn't seen as left-wing here. We don't share your "American perspective." Honestly, I'm not sure it makes sense to speak of an "American perspective" anymore. Maybe it never did. As for whether it's actually "left," I suppose so, but so what? "Left" and "right" are arbitrary grab-bags of unrelated positions anyway. Or rather, positions related in purely historical terms. There's an interesting asymmetry phenomenon here, come to think of it. Gay marriage won when the pro-gay marriage position got outside of the left-right dichotomy, even while the opposition to gay marriage remained typed as "right." (FWIW, I was always with Andrew Sullivan's position that supporting gay marriage was the conservative position, but equating "conservative" and "right" is another mistake.) But this discussion properly belongs int he politics thread. Thanks for the umlaut answer. Nice call, Nayawk.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2018 15:43:24 GMT
Just because peöple agree with the pölitics öf the film in certain places döesnt make it any less left leaning. För example. If a film was prö gun, prö life and anti illegal immigratiön it wöuldn’t make it any less right wing if i saw the mövie in the boön döcks öf Alabama ör smack dab in the middle öf San Franciscö. The peöple öf Alabama might nöt see it as right wing because they agree with it. But that döesnt make it any less right wing. We were discussing perspectives, were we not? I was simply pointing out that the film isn't seen as left-wing here. We don't share your "American perspective." Honestly, I'm not sure it makes sense to speak of an "American perspective" anymore. Maybe it never did. As for whether it's actually "left," I suppose so, but so what? "Left" and "right" are arbitrary grab-bags of unrelated positions anyway. Or rather, positions related in purely historical terms. There's an interesting asymmetry phenomenon here, come to think of it. Gay marriage won when the pro-gay marriage position got outside of the left-right dichotomy, even while the opposition to gay marriage remained typed as "right." (FWIW, I was always with Andrew Sullivan's position that supporting gay marriage was the conservative position, but equating "conservative" and "right" is another mistake.) But this discussion properly belongs int he politics thread. Thanks for the umlaut answer. Nice call, Nayawk. Maybe yöu were discussing prespectives, if yöu were then I misunderstoöd what yöu were saying. I was simply pöinting öut that the mövie is left leaning. And the pröblem with putting such themes in a mövie like this is the fact that it will effectively turn öff ör piss öff all the fans that like Star Wars but döesnt lean left. Which I find funny cönsidering they preach inclusivity nön-stöp. Nöt that I lean öne way ör the öther ön the pölitical spectrum. Thats why if they want a pölitical message in a mövie like this they shöuld do it subtlety. Dö nöt dö it hamfisted över the head. And having real pölitics in a Sci Fi fantasy mövie kills the immersiön. It takes yöu öut öf the mövie and reminds yöu that yöu are watching a mövie. At least it döes för a löt öf peöple.
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 28, 2018 17:32:33 GMT
[snip] Personally, I've never felt alan's brain seemed little. Funny maybe, but only in the best sense. It just reads like the statements you hear from Southern-Conservative-Rednecks, but in the opposite direction. Equally closed minded & aloof, completely dismissing any other point of view
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 28, 2018 18:53:18 GMT
The overtone window shifted left too far too fast, which of course triggered various reactions, which in turn snowballed into the current situation, very few people are interested in any kind of common ground, you have fundamentalists and screeching ideologues setting the tone of the conversation, this isn't a positive outcome no matter what side of the political spectrum you are on. (barring the extremes) Well.... Yes, I think it did. This is the most interesting post I have read here in a while. I was once what many considered fairly far left. Now I might be described as moderately right with several "left" tendencies. That is a pretty large shift, and it seems to fit my experience over time.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 28, 2018 19:32:48 GMT
Just found these, and they’re pretty funny. The fourth one is blocked
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 28, 2018 20:28:34 GMT
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Post by jaison1986 on Apr 28, 2018 20:39:16 GMT
Heeey, what you two are doing? Can I join?
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 28, 2018 21:10:03 GMT
As for whether it's actually "left," I suppose so, but so what? "Left" and "right" are arbitrary grab-bags of unrelated positions anyway. Or rather, positions related in purely historical terms. The fact that these terms are relative doesn't mean that they are arbitrary. I meant "arbitrary," not relative. Although historical accidents are not truly arbitrary, since there are always reasons why those accidents happened the way they did. Current research seems to show that partisanship is typically the cause of beliefs, not the effect of beliefs. People take the positions of their tribe. And those positions can change quite rapidly depending on who or what that tribe gets its cues from. I'm not quite clear what you mean by "overtone" there. But sure, if you told someone from 1960, or even 1980, where we are today on the social issues, it would come across as something like a total victory for the left-wing radicals. (Hell, some of the stuff we've adopted wasn't on anyone's agenda back then.) Economics, not so much.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 28, 2018 23:30:24 GMT
I'll do it here, since others might be following, and I'm actually going to discuss Star Wars.
Moral foundations theory needs historical context to be applied, particularly in the case of the "conservative" group-focused values. For Loyalty, who counts as part of the group? For Authority, who constitutes legitimate authority, and what are our shared traditions? (E.g., is the USA a Christian country?) For Sanctity/Purity, what counts as impure, and why? On the other side, it's not obvious which particular policies actually implement Care and Fairness. Believing in Care doesn't have to mean that you believe in government-funded healthcare for everybody. Telling us that conservatives are in one party and liberals are in the other doesn't tell us which policies the parties will actually be trying to implement. There's also the problem with the Liberty value not mapping very well onto left/right, which you're certainly well aware of.
I suppose we could make a serious case for TLJ being left-wing in moral foundations terms, though, since it really is unconcerned with tradition, if not actively hostile to it. It can even be said to have betrayed the fans, if you like. If we go down this road we're casting a lot of art as political, on one side or another, but I can live with that. Note that in this formulation we liberals not seeing the film as left-wing is simply another case of our blindness to the Authority value. (Does that work for you, Snaggletoöth?)
Come to think of it, that would explain a lot of this thread.
I'll take the blame for missing "Overton window." I don't often use the term myself, but I should have recognized it.
I don't think this is right for a lot of leftists. It's more a question of tactics; they don't believe that pretending we offer equality of opportunity means that we actually do offer equality of opportunity. So, how do you actually get there?
Talk of a meritocracy often has been a pack of transparently self-serving lies. Remember how classical music didn't have a sexism problem until blind auditions proved that it did?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2018 0:05:33 GMT
I'll do it here, since others might be following, and I'm actually going to discuss Star Wars. Moral foundations theory needs historical context to be applied, particularly in the case of the "conservative" group-focused values. For Loyalty, who counts as part of the group? For Authority, who constitutes legitimate authority, and what are our shared traditions? (E.g., is the USA a Christian country?) For Sanctity/Purity, what counts as impure, and why? On the other side, it's not obvious which particular policies actually implement Care and Fairness. Believing in Care doesn't have to mean that you believe in government-funded healthcare for everybody. Telling us that conservatives are in one party and liberals are in the other doesn't tell us which policies the parties will actually be trying to implement. There's also the problem with the Liberty value not mapping very well onto left/right, which you're certainly well aware of. I suppose we could make a serious case for TLJ being left-wing in moral foundations terms, though, since it really is unconcerned with tradition, if not actively hostile to it. It can even be said to have betrayed the fans, if you like. If we go down this road we're casting a lot of art as political, on one side or another, but I can live with that. Note that in this formulation we liberals not seeing the film as left-wing is simply another case of our blindness to the Authority value. (Does that work for you, Snaggletoöth?) Come to think of it, that would explain a lot of this thread. I'll take the blame for missing "Overton window." I don't often use the term myself, but I should have recognized it. I don't think this is right for a lot of leftists. It's more a question of tactics; they don't believe that pretending we offer equality of opportunity means that we actually do offer equality of opportunity. So, how do you actually get there? Talk of a meritocracy often has been a pack of transparently self-serving lies. Remember how classical music didn't have a sexism problem until blind auditions proved that it did? Ive been drinking all day, what are yöu asking me? That yöu liberals dönt see the mövie as left leaning because it is yöur blindness to authörity value?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2018 16:50:06 GMT
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 29, 2018 19:00:37 GMT
Ive been drinking all day, what are yöu asking me? That yöu liberals dönt see the mövie as left leaning because it is yöur blindness to authörity value? Well, I'm wondering if that definition of "left-leaning" works for you. What did you figure makes TLJ left-leaning?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Apr 29, 2018 21:07:26 GMT
"I like this kid."
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 29, 2018 21:53:41 GMT
Not sure if mentioned this already, but not even excited to see this movie to make fun of.
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