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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jun 19, 2018 5:58:57 GMT
That's debatable. RotS I'd argue is simply straight up better. The others I'd say are more or less comparable to TFA. TLJ is plainly the worst so far in my opinion. I unironically think RotS is better than New Hope. Even if you disagree with that hot take, I think it's undeniable that RotS was the best prequel. ESB had the best atmosphere, scenes and emotions tbh... and the not Marty Stu Luke!
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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 6:25:51 GMT
I unironically think RotS is better than New Hope. Even if you disagree with that hot take, I think it's undeniable that RotS was the best prequel. ESB had the best atmosphere, scenes and emotions tbh... and the not Marty Stu Luke! It just had no plot
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Post by mybudgee on Jun 19, 2018 6:56:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 10:52:45 GMT
ESB had the best atmosphere, scenes and emotions tbh... and the not Marty Stu Luke! It just had no plot Empire Strikes Back has nö plöt?
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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 11:45:05 GMT
Empire Strikes Back has nö plöt? Most of the movie is just miscellaneous events with no real meaning strung together into something pretty that doesn't advance an over-arching plot. In fact, apart from Luke going to train at Dagobah, the entire first half is almost worthless. Some would cry out "character development" and point at Han and Leia, but usually character development is inserted into scenes that advance the plot. EDIT: ESB had more character development but a meandering plot (it wasn't tightly plotted). A New Hope had a tighter plot but less character development (I call them archetypes). I think the community is more fond of ESB because characters grow in that movie, but it doesn't mean that there weren't problems with the plot.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 12:15:59 GMT
Empire Strikes Back has nö plöt? Most of the movie is just miscellaneous events with no real meaning strung together into something pretty that doesn't advance an over-arching plot. In fact, apart from Luke going to train at Dagobah, the entire first half is almost worthless. Some would cry out "character development" and point at Han and Leia, but usually character development is inserted into scenes that advance the plot. While I disagree with 100% öf what yöu said. It is different than flat öut saying it has nö plöt.
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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 12:18:02 GMT
Most of the movie is just miscellaneous events with no real meaning strung together into something pretty that doesn't advance an over-arching plot. In fact, apart from Luke going to train at Dagobah, the entire first half is almost worthless. Some would cry out "character development" and point at Han and Leia, but usually character development is inserted into scenes that advance the plot. While I disagree with 100% öf what yöu said. It is different than flat öut saying it has nö plöt. Forgive the hyperbole but I was feeling lazy, heh.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 19, 2018 12:35:43 GMT
Still a classic:
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 19, 2018 13:58:27 GMT
While I disagree with 100% öf what yöu said. It is different than flat öut saying it has nö plöt. Forgive the hyperbole but I was feeling lazy, heh. Er, the plot is that The Empire Struck Back after the Rebels destroyed the Death Star. The Empire found their base on Hoth, and then chased them down as the Rebels tried to escape.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 19, 2018 14:00:07 GMT
Forgive the hyperbole but I was feeling lazy, heh. Er, the plot is that The Empire Struck Back after the Rebels destroyed the Death Star. The Empire found their base on Hoth, and then chased them down as the Rebels tried to escape. You you could say that the Empire...struck back
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 19, 2018 15:30:24 GMT
Er, the plot is that The Empire Struck Back after the Rebels destroyed the Death Star. The Empire found their base on Hoth, and then chased them down as the Rebels tried to escape. You you could say that the Empire...struck back
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Post by mybudgee on Jun 19, 2018 18:24:11 GMT
Empire Strikes Back has nö plöt? Most of the movie is just miscellaneous events with no real meaning strung together into something pretty that doesn't advance an over-arching plot. In fact, apart from Luke going to train at Dagobah, the entire first half is almost worthless.Some would cry out "character development" and point at Han and Leia, but usually character development is inserted into scenes that advance the plot.
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Post by mousestalker on Jun 19, 2018 21:29:08 GMT
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Post by Sifr on Jun 19, 2018 21:39:00 GMT
Jedi masters are overrated. Arrogant, blind self righteous, self serving twits. They sure screwed up that prophecy thing with Anakin bringing "balance" to the Force. You have thousands of light side users of the Force and two dark siders of the Force, how do you think that balance thing is going to work? Something like a massive purge of the light side to bring balance to the Force, that's how. So... what you're saying is you agree with Luke's assessment in TLJ?
"Now that they're extinct the Jedi are romanticised, deified... but if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire and wipe them out."
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 19, 2018 21:41:19 GMT
Jedi masters are overrated. Arrogant, blind self righteous, self serving twits. They sure screwed up that prophecy thing with Anakin bringing "balance" to the Force. You have thousands of light side users of the Force and two dark siders of the Force, how do you think that balance thing is going to work? Something like a massive purge of the light side to bring balance to the Force, that's how. So... what you're saying is you agree with Luke's assessment in TLJ?
"Now that they're extinct the Jedi are romanticised, deified... but if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire and wipe them out." Old Luke is so judgemental. At least at the end he decided to try to save the princess again.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 19, 2018 22:09:16 GMT
So... what you're saying is you agree with Luke's assessment in TLJ?
"Now that they're extinct the Jedi are romanticised, deified... but if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire and wipe them out." Old Luke is so judgemental. At least at the end he decided to try to save the princess again. No, Old Luke is so poorly written and out of character. Luke knows Jedi history. He knows that the Jedi were not at the height of their powers, that in the times of the Old Republic and since there were far greater masters. So, Old Luke is a farce. Next?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jun 19, 2018 22:10:19 GMT
Jedi masters are overrated. Arrogant, blind self righteous, self serving twits. They sure screwed up that prophecy thing with Anakin bringing "balance" to the Force. You have thousands of light side users of the Force and two dark siders of the Force, how do you think that balance thing is going to work? Something like a massive purge of the light side to bring balance to the Force, that's how. So... what you're saying is you agree with Luke's assessment in TLJ?
"Now that they're extinct the Jedi are romanticised, deified... but if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire and wipe them out." He's not wrong. I mean, they're clearly not around anymore, and he is the last of their kind.
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Post by mousestalker on Jun 19, 2018 22:13:48 GMT
Old Luke is so judgemental. At least at the end he decided to try to save the princess again. No, Old Luke is so poorly written and out of character. Luke knows Jedi history. He knows that the Jedi were not at the height of their powers, that in the times of the Old Republic and since there were far greater masters. So, Old Luke is a farce. Next? He's also hard of hearing?
Perhaps Obi Wan was telling him to "Use the Farce, Luke"? Think how much of the Star Wars canon would have altered if there were some funny jokes in there, from time to time. When droids are your comic relief, you have bigger problems than an asthmatic in a mask.
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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 22:34:58 GMT
Er, the plot is that The Empire Struck Back after the Rebels destroyed the Death Star. That's not a plot. So people tend to fling out the word "plot" willy nilly, but there's a famous quote from Forster that pretty much demonstrates what it is. In Forster's "Aspects of a novel" he said: "the king died and then the queen died" is a story, but "the king died and then the queen died of grief" is a plot. He would later emphasise that causality was the key, or that the plot is a causal sequence of events. The Empire Strikes back isn't a plot of the film "The Empire Strikes Back", it's a reaction to an event that occurred in film 1. Sure there needs to be an overarching plot tying the three movies together, but each individual movie needs a plot of its own. Anyway, in The Empire Strikes Back the whole beginning section with Luke being captured is pointless. How did Luke's capture by a Wampa further the plot? It didn't. It was meaningless. It's an example of George Lucas being a good worldbuilder but not a good storyteller. Yes starting with action is good, but it should be action that furthers the story. How did Han and Leia running around further the plot? It didn't. Darth Vadar finding the location is important, Luke's trip to Dagobah is important, and that's pretty much it for the first half. The first half was pretty boring filled with meaningless events.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 19, 2018 22:42:55 GMT
Er, the plot is that The Empire Struck Back after the Rebels destroyed the Death Star. That's not a plot. So people tend to fling out the word "plot" willy nilly, but there's a famous quote from Forster that pretty much demonstrates what it is. In Forster's "Aspects of a novel" he said: "the king died and then the queen died" is a story, but "the king died and then the queen died of grief" is a plot. He would later emphasise that causality was the key, or that the plot is a causal sequence of events. The Empire Strikes back isn't a plot of the film "The Empire Strikes Back", it's a reaction to an event that occurred in film 1. Sure there needs to be an overarching plot tying the three movies together, but each individual movie needs a plot of its own. Anyway, in The Empire Strikes Back the whole beginning section with Luke being captured is pointless. How did Luke's capture by a Wampa further the plot? It didn't. It was meaningless. It's an example of George Lucas being a good worldbuilder but not a good storyteller. Yes starting with action is good, but it should be action that furthers the story. How did Han and Leia running around further the plot? It didn't. Darth Vadar finding the location is important, Luke's trip to Dagobah is important, and that's pretty much it for the first half. The first half was pretty boring filled with meaningless events. Welp, you are missing an important piece of this. Mark Hamill was injured in a motorcycle crash after ANH. His face was left scarred, with some change to the shape as well. The Hoth incident is partly an attempt to explain Mark Hamill's injury in-story, as an injury to Luke. It also was a story device, reminding us that Luke still has a guardian angel and that he is far from a Jedi, and desperately needs training. Desperately needs training. Desperately. Needs. Training. Not a Gary Stu.
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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 22:45:05 GMT
It also was a story device, reminding us that Luke still has a guardian angel and that he is far from a Jedi, and desperately needs training. Desperately needs training. Desperately. Needs. Training. Not a Gary Stu. It's character development, which ESB is better at than A New Hope. But good shows tend to put character development in scenes that further the plot *shrugs*
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 19, 2018 22:49:33 GMT
It also was a story device, reminding us that Luke still has a guardian angel and that he is far from a Jedi, and desperately needs training. Desperately needs training. Desperately. Needs. Training. Not a Gary Stu. It's character development, which ESB is better at than A New Hope. But good shows tend to put character development in scenes that further the plot *shrugs* Conveniently ignoring the injury? It was the real reason.
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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 22:55:52 GMT
It's character development, which ESB is better at than A New Hope. But good shows tend to put character development in scenes that further the plot *shrugs* Conveniently ignoring the injury? It was the real reason. I was ignoring it because it was a stupid reason. His injury could have been written into a scene that furthers a plot as easily as it could into as scene that doesn't.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 19, 2018 23:25:01 GMT
Conveniently ignoring the injury? It was the real reason. I was ignoring it because it was a stupid reason. His injury could have been written into a scene that furthers a plot as easily as it could into as scene that doesn't. It was a stupid reason? No. I don't think so. His injury was to the face. He is a Jedi in training, and Jedi don't get hit in the face often, but when they do it is usually by monsters. A clawed hand leaves a scar on a face. The scene had to be early in the movie and before we had a full face reveal of Luke. Wrapped up, right away, in a nice little scene. The scene does eventually further the plot, as Yoda and Dagobah are mentioned for the first time. Essentially, you are being pedantic because you think you understand Forster or plot-writing. You may, to an extent, but making a film is a lot more than telling a story.
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 19, 2018 23:35:55 GMT
It also was a story device, reminding us that Luke still has a guardian angel and that he is far from a Jedi, and desperately needs training. Desperately needs training. Desperately. Needs. Training. Not a Gary Stu. It's character development, which ESB is better at than A New Hope. But good shows tend to put character development in scenes that further the plot *shrugs* It is the beginning of the movie. It sets up the initial conditions on Hoth before the arrival of the Imperial probe, relationship among the main characters, shows one of the characters, Luke, has developed some space magic abilities with "the Force"...
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