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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 23:35:55 GMT
I was ignoring it because it was a stupid reason. His injury could have been written into a scene that furthers a plot as easily as it could into as scene that doesn't. It was a stupid reason? No. I don't think so. His injury was to the face. He is a Jedi in training, and Jedi don't get hit in the face often, but when they do it is usually by monsters. A clawed hand leaves a scar on a face. The scene had to be early in the movie and before we had a full face reveal of Luke. Wrapped up, right away, in a nice little scene. The scene does eventually further the plot, as Yoda and Dagobah are mentioned for the first time. Essentially, you are being pedantic because you think you understand Forster or plot-writing. You may, to an extent, but making a film is a lot more than telling a story. The idea that there was a conflict needed to give Luke an injury isn't in question. Making the scene pointless and using the injury as an excuse is. There are a number of ways they could have got around this, they could have made Luke's disappearance (through the Wampa's kidnapping) further the plot, they could have opened in the middle of a more relevant conflict, they could have opened in the middle of a relevant crash scene and left the injuries to the viewers imagination. Hundreds of different ways, and they chose a meaningless conflict in the middle of nowhere. Obi Wan's ghost furthered the plot, the conflict itself was irrelevant to the plot. I'm not being pedantic at all, because that most of the first half of the movie was meaningless scenes isn't a "minor" complaint. And I actually do understand plot writing but I really don't care if you believe that or not *shrugs*
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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 23:36:54 GMT
It's character development, which ESB is better at than A New Hope. But good shows tend to put character development in scenes that further the plot *shrugs* It is the beginning of the movie. It sets up the initial conditions on Hoth before the arrival of the Imperial probe, relationship among the main characters, shows one of the characters, Luke, has developed some space magic abilities with "the Force"... Worldbuilding and character development EDIT: It filled the first half. Fine, sure, but they were mostly meaningless scenes plot wise. Too many meaningless scenes. EDIT2: George is very good at worldbuilding.
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 19, 2018 23:43:03 GMT
It is the beginning of the movie. It sets up the initial conditions on Hoth before the arrival of the Imperial probe, relationship among the main characters, shows one of the characters, Luke, has developed some space magic abilities with "the Force"... Worldbuilding and character development Wasn't Luke following readings from a probe droid that crashed? I mean, there's a pretty small window there between when he gets attacked, then escapes and has the Kenobi hallucination alone so the he isn't sure its even real, to when the Empire finds them and the assault and chase starts.
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Post by river82 on Jun 19, 2018 23:50:39 GMT
Worldbuilding and character development Wasn't Luke following readings from a probe droid that crashed? I mean, there's a pretty small window there between when he gets attacked, then escapes and has the Kenobi hallucination alone so the he isn't sure its even real, to when the Empire finds them and the assault and chase starts. Heh, he was scanning for life readings and failed to pick up the nearby wampa. I don't know what kind of equipment he had but he needs a refund... EDIT: For future reference, this is being pedantic
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Post by newnation on Jun 20, 2018 0:48:11 GMT
Are people really arguing over the wampa scene? I think we're nearing a point of no return....this thread is starting to go to shit. Also, where is Luke being a Gary Stu coming from?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 0:49:31 GMT
Er, the plot is that The Empire Struck Back after the Rebels destroyed the Death Star. That's not a plot. So people tend to fling out the word "plot" willy nilly, but there's a famous quote from Forster that pretty much demonstrates what it is. In Forster's "Aspects of a novel" he said: "the king died and then the queen died" is a story, but "the king died and then the queen died of grief" is a plot. He would later emphasise that causality was the key, or that the plot is a causal sequence of events. The Empire Strikes back isn't a plot of the film "The Empire Strikes Back", it's a reaction to an event that occurred in film 1. Sure there needs to be an overarching plot tying the three movies together, but each individual movie needs a plot of its own. Anyway, in The Empire Strikes Back the whole beginning section with Luke being captured is pointless. How did Luke's capture by a Wampa further the plot? It didn't. It was meaningless. It's an example of George Lucas being a good worldbuilder but not a good storyteller. Yes starting with action is good, but it should be action that furthers the story. How did Han and Leia running around further the plot? It didn't. Darth Vadar finding the location is important, Luke's trip to Dagobah is important, and that's pretty much it for the first half. The first half was pretty boring filled with meaningless events. Höw döes it nöt further the plöt? Is this an alt accöunt öf andy? The pöint öf the Höth battle is tö shöw the Rebels are still small and the Empire is still in contröl öf the galaxy. Yes it is a reactiön tö the events in the first film but it is part öf a trilögy. Isnt that the pöint öf a sequel? Luke being captured and having tö be saved further the plöt the möst. Ya knöw Ben shöws up and tells him tö gö tö see Yöda. I just dönt see höw it döesnt "further the störy" öne event leads tö the next. Is that nöt furthering the störy? Old Luke is so judgemental. At least at the end he decided to try to save the princess again. No, Old Luke is so poorly written and out of character. Luke knows Jedi history. He knows that the Jedi were not at the height of their powers, that in the times of the Old Republic and since there were far greater masters. So, Old Luke is a farce. Next? His name isnt Luke. Its Jake.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 0:50:24 GMT
Are people really arguing over the wampa scene? I think we're nearing a point of no return....this thread is starting to go to shit. Also, where is Luke being a Gary Stu coming from? Butthurt Mickey Wars fans being mad at the fact Ma-Rey Sue is a Mary Sue.
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Post by river82 on Jun 20, 2018 0:59:33 GMT
The pöint öf the Höth battle is tö shöw the Rebels are still small and the Empire is still in contröl öf the galaxy. Yes it is a reactiön tö the events in the first film but it is part öf a trilögy. Isnt that the pöint öf a sequel? Luke being captured and having tö be saved further the plöt the möst. Ya knöw Ben shöws up and tells him tö gö tö see Yöda. I just dönt see höw it döesnt "further the störy" öne event leads tö the next. Is that nöt furthering the störy? The first part is worldbuilding. Obi Wan telling Luke to go to Dagobah does forward the plot, the conflict does not. It is not even established that the conflict was the trigger for Obi Wan to appear. He could have appeared to Luke on any number of imaginable occasions, it didn't need to be at the very end of what was essentially a filler scene (with respect to plot development). EDIT: Need to have Luke focus his force powers to communicate to a Force Spirit? Well imagine a conflict relevant to the plot that accomplishes this. As it stands, the wampa serves no purpose plot wise.
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Post by river82 on Jun 20, 2018 1:09:03 GMT
Are people really arguing over the wampa scene? I think we're nearing a point of no return....this thread is starting to go to shit. Also, where is Luke being a Gary Stu coming from? Butthurt Mickey Wars fans being mad at the fact Ma-Rey Sue is a Mary Sue. It seems to me that George Lucas fans get equally butthurt. I say something quite obvious like "Empire Strikes back has no plot" and I have 5 people jumping down my throat ... defending the wampa scene no less. A scene shoe-horned in that has little to no relevance, and we have people defending that scene? Jesus Christ.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 20, 2018 1:17:34 GMT
Butthurt Mickey Wars fans being mad at the fact Ma-Rey Sue is a Mary Sue. It seems to me that George Lucas fans get equally butthurt. I say something quite obvious like "Empire Strikes back has no plot" and I have 5 people jumping down my throat ... defending the wampa scene no less. A scene shoe-horned in that has little to no relevance, and we have people defending that scene? Jesus Christ. Your "pedantic" post made me snicker, good work! Hey man, I own the Lego kit for that scene. I was, what, 8 in 1980. That Wampa was skerry and I was worried about Luke just like Han and the Princess. Perhaps this is rose tint. Won't make me budge a millimeter.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 1:23:16 GMT
The pöint öf the Höth battle is tö shöw the Rebels are still small and the Empire is still in contröl öf the galaxy. Yes it is a reactiön tö the events in the first film but it is part öf a trilögy. Isnt that the pöint öf a sequel? Luke being captured and having tö be saved further the plöt the möst. Ya knöw Ben shöws up and tells him tö gö tö see Yöda. I just dönt see höw it döesnt "further the störy" öne event leads tö the next. Is that nöt furthering the störy? The first part is worldbuilding. Obi Wan telling Luke to go to Dagobah does forward the plot, the conflict does not. It is not even established that the conflict was the trigger for Obi Wan to appear. He could have appeared to Luke on any number of imaginable occasions, it didn't need to be at the very end of what was essentially a filler scene (with respect to plot development). EDIT: Need to have Luke focus his force powers to communicate to a Force Spirit? Well imagine a conflict relevant to the plot that accomplishes this. As it stands, the wampa serves no purpose plot wise. Sö it wöuld have been better if at the start öf the mövie Ben shöwed up and töld Luke tö gö tö Dagöbah? The Wampa part shöws Luke is dying and he döent knöw if he is really seeing Ben ör if he is hallucinating. And us as the viewers dönt either. Sö when he gets tö Dagöbah he questiöns whether ör nöt he even shöuld have came.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jun 20, 2018 2:01:16 GMT
That's not a plot. So people tend to fling out the word "plot" willy nilly, but there's a famous quote from Forster that pretty much demonstrates what it is. In Forster's "Aspects of a novel" he said: "the king died and then the queen died" is a story, but "the king died and then the queen died of grief" is a plot. He would later emphasise that causality was the key, or that the plot is a causal sequence of events. The Empire Strikes back isn't a plot of the film "The Empire Strikes Back", it's a reaction to an event that occurred in film 1. Sure there needs to be an overarching plot tying the three movies together, but each individual movie needs a plot of its own. Anyway, in The Empire Strikes Back the whole beginning section with Luke being captured is pointless. How did Luke's capture by a Wampa further the plot? It didn't. It was meaningless. It's an example of George Lucas being a good worldbuilder but not a good storyteller. Yes starting with action is good, but it should be action that furthers the story. How did Han and Leia running around further the plot? It didn't. Darth Vadar finding the location is important, Luke's trip to Dagobah is important, and that's pretty much it for the first half. The first half was pretty boring filled with meaningless events. Höw döes it nöt further the plöt? Is this an alt accöunt öf andy? The pöint öf the Höth battle is tö shöw the Rebels are still small and the Empire is still in contröl öf the galaxy. Yes it is a reactiön tö the events in the first film but it is part öf a trilögy. Isnt that the pöint öf a sequel? Luke being captured and having tö be saved further the plöt the möst. Ya knöw Ben shöws up and tells him tö gö tö see Yöda. I just dönt see höw it döesnt "further the störy" öne event leads tö the next. Is that nöt furthering the störy? No, Old Luke is so poorly written and out of character. Luke knows Jedi history. He knows that the Jedi were not at the height of their powers, that in the times of the Old Republic and since there were far greater masters. So, Old Luke is a farce. Next? His name isnt Luke. Its Jake. Do you really want to go there? Yes, dance my minions, dance! I command thee!
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Post by HK90210 on Jun 20, 2018 2:33:51 GMT
Höw döes it nöt further the plöt? Is this an alt accöunt öf andy? The pöint öf the Höth battle is tö shöw the Rebels are still small and the Empire is still in contröl öf the galaxy. Yes it is a reactiön tö the events in the first film but it is part öf a trilögy. Isnt that the pöint öf a sequel? Luke being captured and having tö be saved further the plöt the möst. Ya knöw Ben shöws up and tells him tö gö tö see Yöda. I just dönt see höw it döesnt "further the störy" öne event leads tö the next. Is that nöt furthering the störy? His name isnt Luke. Its Jake. Do you really want to go there? Yes, dance my minions, dance! I command thee! Yes, Master!
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 20, 2018 2:36:33 GMT
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 20, 2018 3:37:41 GMT
Wasn't Luke following readings from a probe droid that crashed? I mean, there's a pretty small window there between when he gets attacked, then escapes and has the Kenobi hallucination alone so the he isn't sure its even real, to when the Empire finds them and the assault and chase starts. Heh, he was scanning for life readings and failed to pick up the nearby wampa. I don't know what kind of equipment he had but he needs a refund... EDIT: For future reference, this is being pedantic We encounter Luke as he was finishing his scan for life forms, and was about to follow up on the probe/meteorite landing....
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 20, 2018 3:43:35 GMT
Butthurt Mickey Wars fans being mad at the fact Ma-Rey Sue is a Mary Sue. It seems to me that George Lucas fans get equally butthurt. I say something quite obvious like "Empire Strikes back has no plot" and I have 5 people jumping down my throat ... defending the wampa scene no less. A scene shoe-horned in that has little to no relevance, and we have people defending that scene? Jesus Christ. Well the problem is that this "no plot" is not obvious at all, and I'm still trying to figure out why you think all of the scenes do not contribute. The movie has a plot, the movie has worldbuilding, the plot does not always need to progress in every scene. If the world building (or whatever sidetracked the plot) is interesting I think that's fine too, but I think you are just discarding most of the plot as merely worldbuilding. The wampa scene is basically the first big loss (maybe 2nd given Tusken raiders) we see for Luke in Star Wars, and the near death experience sends him on his training. Han saving him demonstrates their relationship, and then later explains why Luke would leave Yoda to save him. I don't understand why that isn't considered part of the plot, even if it is boring or unnecessary to how the Rebels escape, it is the start of story of Luke's training. I'm no expert, but I've seen enough movies to be pretty sure there is not a rule that movies only have one plot.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 20, 2018 4:08:38 GMT
This thread is fucking pathetic. Sine people like the OT, some the prequels and some the new series. Some like all of it (raises hand) get over it for fucks sake!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 4:57:09 GMT
This thread is fucking pathetic. Sine people like the OT, some the prequels and some the new series. Some like all of it (raises hand) get over it for fucks sake! i like all of it. meaning what happens if you don't like any of it and say it on the internet. like twitter, youtube and so on.
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Post by river82 on Jun 20, 2018 6:04:28 GMT
The first part is worldbuilding. Obi Wan telling Luke to go to Dagobah does forward the plot, the conflict does not. It is not even established that the conflict was the trigger for Obi Wan to appear. He could have appeared to Luke on any number of imaginable occasions, it didn't need to be at the very end of what was essentially a filler scene (with respect to plot development). EDIT: Need to have Luke focus his force powers to communicate to a Force Spirit? Well imagine a conflict relevant to the plot that accomplishes this. As it stands, the wampa serves no purpose plot wise. Sö it wöuld have been better if at the start öf the mövie Ben shöwed up and töld Luke tö gö tö Dagöbah? The Wampa part shöws Luke is dying and he döent knöw if he is really seeing Ben ör if he is hallucinating. And us as the viewers dönt either. Sö when he gets tö Dagöbah he questiöns whether ör nöt he even shöuld have came. It should be noted that nobody knows whether the force vision is tied to the previous conflict at all. Which means the previous part about the conflict can be removed from the plot as easily as if it were nothing (which it is). What remains is, as you correctly point out, something that isn't sufficiently fleshed out yet the scene with the wampa can be pretty much replaced with any scene whatsoever with minimal effect on plot. And a scene that makes Luke question his vision is not hard to create, possibly a scene that relates to the main conflict? Too much to ask?
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Post by river82 on Jun 20, 2018 6:05:40 GMT
Heh, he was scanning for life readings and failed to pick up the nearby wampa. I don't know what kind of equipment he had but he needs a refund... EDIT: For future reference, this is being pedantic We encounter Luke as he was finishing his scan for life forms, and was about to follow up on the probe/meteorite landing.... He was finishing his scan and literally 30 seconds later was attacked by a wampa without moving from that spot. I'm so glad his equipment has a 2m radius on it. The plot point about looking for the meteorite went nowhere, it didn't forward any plot.
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Post by river82 on Jun 20, 2018 6:19:56 GMT
It seems to me that George Lucas fans get equally butthurt. I say something quite obvious like "Empire Strikes back has no plot" and I have 5 people jumping down my throat ... defending the wampa scene no less. A scene shoe-horned in that has little to no relevance, and we have people defending that scene? Jesus Christ. Well the problem is that this "no plot" is not obvious at all, and I'm still trying to figure out why you think all of the scenes do not contribute. The movie has a plot, the movie has worldbuilding, the plot does not always need to progress in every scene. If the world building (or whatever sidetracked the plot) is interesting I think that's fine too, but I think you are just discarding most of the plot as merely worldbuilding. The wampa scene is basically the first big loss (maybe 2nd given Tusken raiders) we see for Luke in Star Wars, and the near death experience sends him on his training. Han saving him demonstrates their relationship, and then later explains why Luke would leave Yoda to save him. I don't understand why that isn't considered part of the plot, even if it is boring or unnecessary to how the Rebels escape, it is the start of story of Luke's training. I'm no expert, but I've seen enough movies to be pretty sure there is not a rule that movies only have one plot. The plot doesn't need to progress in every scene, the problem is the first half contains very little that advances the main plot. The near death experience doesn't send him on his training, Ben sends him on his training. That Ben appeared to him hasn't been able to be attributed to his near death experience (ask the fan community what sparked the force vision of Ben and you might get 5 or 6 different but credible answers). Han is character development. The existence of b-plots are a fine thing, but I was talking about a main plot of the story which deals with the main conflict and the main goals of the main characters. The main plot deals with the main conflict, and are the causal events of that main conflict. Track that and "Luke fights a wampa" doesn't appear on the list. Ben appearing to Luke does, but like I said before, eliminate the wampa fight and the main plot isn't affected. But like I said before, I think the fanbase likes this movie because it contains character growth. But just because a large amount of people like something doesn't mean it's any good, or great, or flawless *looks at Twilight*
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Post by river82 on Jun 20, 2018 6:22:55 GMT
This thread is fucking pathetic. Sine people like the OT, some the prequels and some the new series. Some like all of it (raises hand) get over it for fucks sake! A lot of anger in this thread. Don't come in unless you're looking to fight it seems xD
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jun 20, 2018 6:42:37 GMT
kinda related to people jumping on this thread wanting other people to equalize OT, prequels and sequels using relativist thinking.
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Post by mybudgee on Jun 20, 2018 7:06:45 GMT
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Post by river82 on Jun 20, 2018 8:14:07 GMT
Entertainment blogger David Poland recalls Lucas’ comment in Feb 2007 at the Publicist’s Guild luncheon: “George Lucas, giving the award to Sid Ganis, who was the in-house publicist on Star Wars: Episode Five – The Empire Strikes Back, said, ‘Sid is the reason why The Empire Strikes Back is always written about as the best of the films, when it actually was the worst one.'” "Worse than the prequels? Heh, oh George.
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