cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Dec 27, 2019 10:03:09 GMT
Honestly its not that hard to do backloaded writing either with one director, or many or what have you. After all...from all indications...Lucas pretty much had no real idea what he was doing with Episodes 4-6 anyways. Maybe the broad strokes but several of the major story decisions happened as they went along. Likewise with the 'Sequel Trilogy'. Case in point: The whole 'Rey is a Palpetine' isn't that much of a retcon considering JJ kept it to where her parents still sold her to Unkar...so what Kylo said was still mostly true. It still fits...more or less. I agree that the originals not being one solid story arc from the start, as those movies had a new director each time as well. But the prequels I think were planned out from the start. They wanted to tell one story of how the Empire came to power and wiped out the Jedi, creating the universe we see at the beginning of the a New Hope. Part one Palpatine created a crisis on his home world, and then manipulated a young, naive princess into helping him gain sympathy and become chancellor. Part II he used that power to create a army to fight another threat that he orchestrated, and then in Part III he used that army to wipe out the Jedi. They built up Anakin's and Padme's relationship through all three films, and he also had been grooming Anakin through the previous movies to ultimately turn him to the dark side. Finally using his fear of losing Padme as the final trigger. That trilogy for all of its other faults definitely seemed like it was planned out from the start. Which makes sense seeing that it had one writer and one directer for all three films. The Rise of Skywalker suffered from trying to go back and undo plot points from the previous film. Abrams just didn't work with what he had, he tried to go back and retcon the previous movie and tell a new story at the same time. Rey in the Last Jedi was the unknown, ordinary person that showed that anyone, even a no name could be a powerful Jedi. Rey in TROS is the legacy living off their family name. Two completely different themes.
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saandrig
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Post by saandrig on Dec 27, 2019 10:13:45 GMT
Things not going how we expect them to, apparent triumphs being turned on its heads into defeats and our heroes actually having to work at things. It first really came up in Rogue One where things were starting to look hopeful and then...the Devestator/ Death Star showed up, once again this movie just took this concept to eleven The entire TLJ was built on this trope - to a fault even. All the other SW movies, put together, don't even come close. But it also made Poe look like a hero of the First Order.
Speaking of which - the "one in a million" Holdo maneuver (which I loved on screen, but, boy, the lore issues...). I laughed when someone offered to pull it off again in RoS, because it's the ultimate killer move, but better be forgotten. Which is so Star Trek In the first two of the new Trek movies they found the ultimate "transport me anywhere in the galaxy machine" and a cure for death...then they forget about them in the third movie.
I agree on the opening crawl - worst one. In fact it told me how the movie will end. The only questions I had was...
who will die, Rey or Ben. I was certain it's Ben, but hoped it would be Rey, because that would have been a bit more surprising. Then I was all "don't do it, buddy, leave her be", but nope, he had to... And at the kiss I almost groaned and thought "that was it for you, Benny boy". I can't express how much I hate that they gave Rey a pedigree... She was perfect as a nobody. What, the Force is only for aristocrats now? The fans cried their eyes out when TLJ threw their stupid lineage theories out the window. Big deal. No, I didn't mean you, Fin...
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Post by colfoley on Dec 27, 2019 10:19:20 GMT
The answers to my biggest question:
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 27, 2019 12:10:57 GMT
So, Mandalorian Episode 8... is awesome. Great character moments all around. Sat bolt upright when Moff Gideon whipped out the Darksaber in the last scene.
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docsteely
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Post by docsteely on Dec 27, 2019 13:17:48 GMT
So, Mandalorian Episode 8... is awesome. Great character moments all around. Sat bolt upright when Moff Gideon whipped out the Darksaber in the last scene. Agreed, it was definitely worth the wait. P.S. I absolutely LOVE the Armorer .
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Dec 27, 2019 17:55:37 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Dec 27, 2019 18:30:58 GMT
Going to try an experiment here, could backfire.
I've seen comment after comment say 'if they didn't spend so much time retconning the last jedi then it would've been a good movie.'
Can someone clue me in? I only saw maaayyyybbbeee one. And that's pushing what I consider a retcon.
Edit: Ok actually 2.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 27, 2019 20:08:42 GMT
Going to try an experiment here, could backfire. I've seen comment after comment say 'if they didn't spend so much time retconning the last jedi then it would've been a good movie.' Can someone clue me in? I only saw maaayyyybbbeee one. And that's pushing what I consider a retcon. Edit: Ok actually 2. From what I understand, they didn't retcon enough of it.
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 27, 2019 20:10:28 GMT
They could have avoided all of this if Abrams had directed the last movie. Then the flow of things wouldn't have been f**ked up
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Dec 27, 2019 22:06:15 GMT
Going to try an experiment here, could backfire. I've seen comment after comment say 'if they didn't spend so much time retconning the last jedi then it would've been a good movie.' Can someone clue me in? I only saw maaayyyybbbeee one. And that's pushing what I consider a retcon. Edit: Ok actually 2. How are defining retcon? Because all that's going to happen is people are going to lists things and be told that you don't consider them retcons for whatever reason.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 27, 2019 22:15:36 GMT
They could have avoided all of this if Abrams had directed the last movie. Then the flow of things wouldn't have been f**ked up This is pretty much what I am talking about. No real expansion on how Rise of Skywalker didn't properly 'flow' with TLJ. For the record I found most of the decisions JJ made to be natural extensions of TLJ, not contradictions or retcons. Going to try an experiment here, could backfire. I've seen comment after comment say 'if they didn't spend so much time retconning the last jedi then it would've been a good movie.' Can someone clue me in? I only saw maaayyyybbbeee one. And that's pushing what I consider a retcon. Edit: Ok actually 2. How are defining retcon? Because all that's going to happen is people are going to lists things and be told that you don't consider them retcons for whatever reason. Well played! Now I'll freely admit that the word 'retcon' for me has such a dirty connotation that I might be unfairly biased to what is...or what is not...a retcon. It just might be a simple tool that writers can use in their stories like 'mary sue' and 'mcguffins', which there can then be good retcons and bad retcons. Keeping that disclaimer in mind I would define a retcon as: In a series any change in the sequel in the series which contradicts a previous 'fact' of the series without any regard to the original state. Examples of retcons are in the Rise of Skywalker Rey just happens to have Anakin's lightsaber again even though it was destroyed in TLJ without any explanation provided (at least in Episode 9). Another fairly big retcon was in Stargate SG-1 when the gate system went from being able to traverse multiple galaxies with 7 symbol addresses to 8 symbol addresses being used for...reasons to complicated to really go into here. (I suppose its ironic that given how much I hate the word both of these instances of the 'retcon' ended up being positives to their individual works)
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Post by cypherj on Dec 27, 2019 23:11:51 GMT
How are defining retcon? Because all that's going to happen is people are going to lists things and be told that you don't consider them retcons for whatever reason. Well played! Now I'll freely admit that the word 'retcon' for me has such a dirty connotation that I might be unfairly biased to what is...or what is not...a retcon. It just might be a simple tool that writers can use in their stories like 'mary sue' and 'mcguffins', which there can then be good retcons and bad retcons. Keeping that disclaimer in mind I would define a retcon as: In a series any change in the sequel in the series which contradicts a previous 'fact' of the series without any regard to the original state. Examples of retcons are in the Rise of Skywalker Rey just happens to have Anakin's lightsaber again even though it was destroyed in TLJ without any explanation provided (at least in Episode 9). Another fairly big retcon was in Stargate SG-1 when the gate system went from being able to traverse multiple galaxies with 7 symbol addresses to 8 symbol addresses being used for...reasons to complicated to really go into here. (I suppose its ironic that given how much I hate the word both of these instances of the 'retcon' ended up being positives to their individual works) See, my definition is totally different. For me it's changing past things to fit a new narrative. What I mean by this is for example I'm writing a sequel to a book, movie, video game or whatever, and want to tell the story my way. But when I'm finished I look back and say these things from the previous work don't make sense anymore, so I change them for no other reason than to match my narrative. Everything single thing I change is a retcon. It wasn't planned that way, it wasn't set up or foreshadowed in any way. Even if I try to explain it after the fact, it's still a retcon. Rey being a Palpatine is a retcon. Rey was written to show that anyone can be a powerful Jedi, not just those with good pedigrees. Everyone knows this, that was one of the main themes of the Last Jedi, down to stable boy coming out and using the force to start sweeping. So making her a Palpatine is most definitely a retcon of what she written as in the Last Jedi. Snoke was a retcon. Snoke was the Supreme leader, with no inkling that someone else was pulling the strings, and he had Sith Lord level Force abilities. Then in TROS we find out that you can grow this kind of power in a tub, and more than one. Saying that Snoke was never in charge, and he was just a puppet was definitely a retcon done for no other reason than to legitimize Palpatine coming back from the dead. Kylo Ren finally breaking free from Snoke and taking control of the First Order to bend the galaxy to his will. How exactly was the Emperor pulling the strings after Snoke died if Kylo didn't even know he as alive? Just more to show that the Emperor was just plucked out of thin air and everything about him was a retcon. Hux, probably one of the most devout First Order followers, if not the most devout. What they did to his character in this film was criminal and completely unnecessary. If many Bothans died off screen to bring the Death Star code, why did the spy even need a face in this film? They're more, but the reason I say it hurt this film is because you had so many things you have to make up and try to develop in the same film, which meant just pulling stuff out of thin air with no foundation. Palpatine being alive. How? What has he been doing this whole time? Building a super fleet to take over the galaxy. But at the beginning of the film the resistance moral is low because there's no one to help them. The First Order has pretty much beaten the galaxy into submission. So Palpatine is making a fleet to conquer and already conquered galaxy? The First Order isn't even defeated at the end of the movie. It's basically just back to where it was when the movie started. This is the kind of nonsense you get by trying to force Palpatine into the story rather than continuing what had been established and having Kylo leading the first order as the big bad, and having Hux as a kind of secondary antagonist who has already been established as well. Not nearly as many things would have come out of left field or had to be made up to fit the story. They gave Poe a criminal history for no other reason than to give him a tie to the criminal underworld so he could just know a guy who could hack robots. Then you never heard about his past again once they left that planet. It wasn't like Han Solo, who had criminal history, painted as being only about himself, only to find something to belong to for the first time and come back to save the day. Only to have his past catch up with him in the second movie, finally to free himself of it in the last. You couldn't have any of that kind of character arc because they started trying to lay groundwork too late in the game. Characters who were either criminally underdeveloped, or had their backgrounds changed to fit a new narrative just came across as shallow as a result.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2019 23:28:52 GMT
Snoke was a retcon. Snoke was the Supreme leader, with no inkling that someone else was pulling the strings, and he had Sith Lord level Force abilities. Then in TROS we find out that you can grow this kind of power in a tub, and more than one. Saying that Snoke was never in charge, and he was just a puppet was definitely a retcon done for no other reason than to legitimize Palpatine coming back from the dead. Kylo Ren finally breaking free from Snoke and taking control of the First Order to bend the galaxy to his will. How exactly was the Emperor pulling the strings after Snoke died if Kylo didn't even know he as alive? Just more to show that the Emperor was just plucked out of thin air and everything about him was a retcon. To address these two, these aren't retcons: they're Palpatine's MO. With Snoke, it's hardly the first time he created a super powerful Force user since he created Anakin. As for manipulating Snoke and Kylo, like I said Palpatine is a master of manipulating events even on a galactic scale to fit his ambitions. He manipulated people not just directly, but just having things set up so no matter what happened he'd be in a better position than before. Neither are retcons since the entire saga set him up to be like this.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Dec 27, 2019 23:38:25 GMT
Snoke was a retcon. Snoke was the Supreme leader, with no inkling that someone else was pulling the strings, and he had Sith Lord level Force abilities. Then in TROS we find out that you can grow this kind of power in a tub, and more than one. Saying that Snoke was never in charge, and he was just a puppet was definitely a retcon done for no other reason than to legitimize Palpatine coming back from the dead. Kylo Ren finally breaking free from Snoke and taking control of the First Order to bend the galaxy to his will. How exactly was the Emperor pulling the strings after Snoke died if Kylo didn't even know he as alive? Just more to show that the Emperor was just plucked out of thin air and everything about him was a retcon. To address these two, these aren't retcons: they're Palpatine's MO. With Snoke, it's hardly the first time he created a super powerful Force user since he created Anakin. As for manipulating Snoke and Kylo, like I said Palpatine is a master of manipulating events even on a galactic scale to fit his ambitions. He manipulated people not just directly, but just having things set up so no matter what happened he'd be in a better position than before. Neither are retcons since the entire saga set him up to be like this. Created Anakin? Anakin was grown in tub? Palpatine and everything about him was made up after the fact, and anything that didn't go with it was changed to fit the new narrative.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 27, 2019 23:42:27 GMT
To address these two, these aren't retcons: they're Palpatine's MO. With Snoke, it's hardly the first time he created a super powerful Force user since he created Anakin. As for manipulating Snoke and Kylo, like I said Palpatine is a master of manipulating events even on a galactic scale to fit his ambitions. He manipulated people not just directly, but just having things set up so no matter what happened he'd be in a better position than before. Neither are retcons since the entire saga set him up to be like this. Created Anakin? Anakin was grown in tub? Palpatine and everything about him was made up after the fact, and anything that didn't go with it was changed to fit the new narrative. Sounds like I should simply wrap up the Skywalker Saga by digging out my old Dark Empire comics.
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Post by Serza on Dec 28, 2019 0:56:05 GMT
So were they a clan? A house?
Just an enclave? What does this mean for the Mandalorian lore going forward? Does the Resol'nare still mean anything? What is the "way"? Has the knowledge of the Jedi really been so thoroughly erased within the minds of the Mandalorians in the past thirty years? They were one of the factions of the civil war. Bo Katan Kryze has worked with the Jedi on many occasions, and she has received the Darksaber from Sabine Wren, who has travelled with Jedi for many years. Has the Empire really succeeded so well that so few who live still remember the Jedi?
That one scene showing it wasn't some ultra super hero beneath the armor was... I mean, they... managed to improve on the character by taking away one of it's defining traits so far. I am in awe.
I do believe a few of my expectations were subverted, and not in Ruin's way.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 28, 2019 1:36:36 GMT
Well played! Now I'll freely admit that the word 'retcon' for me has such a dirty connotation that I might be unfairly biased to what is...or what is not...a retcon. It just might be a simple tool that writers can use in their stories like 'mary sue' and 'mcguffins', which there can then be good retcons and bad retcons. Keeping that disclaimer in mind I would define a retcon as: In a series any change in the sequel in the series which contradicts a previous 'fact' of the series without any regard to the original state. Examples of retcons are in the Rise of Skywalker Rey just happens to have Anakin's lightsaber again even though it was destroyed in TLJ without any explanation provided (at least in Episode 9). Another fairly big retcon was in Stargate SG-1 when the gate system went from being able to traverse multiple galaxies with 7 symbol addresses to 8 symbol addresses being used for...reasons to complicated to really go into here. (I suppose its ironic that given how much I hate the word both of these instances of the 'retcon' ended up being positives to their individual works) See, my definition is totally different. For me it's changing past things to fit a new narrative. What I mean by this is for example I'm writing a sequel to a book, movie, video game or whatever, and want to tell the story my way. But when I'm finished I look back and say these things from the previous work don't make sense anymore, so I change them for no other reason than to match my narrative. Everything single thing I change is a retcon. It wasn't planned that way, it wasn't set up or foreshadowed in any way. Even if I try to explain it after the fact, it's still a retcon. Rey being a Palpatine is a retcon. Rey was written to show that anyone can be a powerful Jedi, not just those with good pedigrees. Everyone knows this, that was one of the main themes of the Last Jedi, down to stable boy coming out and using the force to start sweeping. So making her a Palpatine is most definitely a retcon of what she written as in the Last Jedi. Snoke was a retcon. Snoke was the Supreme leader, with no inkling that someone else was pulling the strings, and he had Sith Lord level Force abilities. Then in TROS we find out that you can grow this kind of power in a tub, and more than one. Saying that Snoke was never in charge, and he was just a puppet was definitely a retcon done for no other reason than to legitimize Palpatine coming back from the dead. Kylo Ren finally breaking free from Snoke and taking control of the First Order to bend the galaxy to his will. How exactly was the Emperor pulling the strings after Snoke died if Kylo didn't even know he as alive? Just more to show that the Emperor was just plucked out of thin air and everything about him was a retcon. Hux, probably one of the most devout First Order followers, if not the most devout. What they did to his character in this film was criminal and completely unnecessary. If many Bothans died off screen to bring the Death Star code, why did the spy even need a face in this film? They're more, but the reason I say it hurt this film is because you had so many things you have to make up and try to develop in the same film, which meant just pulling stuff out of thin air with no foundation. Palpatine being alive. How? What has he been doing this whole time? Building a super fleet to take over the galaxy. But at the beginning of the film the resistance moral is low because there's no one to help them. The First Order has pretty much beaten the galaxy into submission. So Palpatine is making a fleet to conquer and already conquered galaxy? The First Order isn't even defeated at the end of the movie. It's basically just back to where it was when the movie started. This is the kind of nonsense you get by trying to force Palpatine into the story rather than continuing what had been established and having Kylo leading the first order as the big bad, and having Hux as a kind of secondary antagonist who has already been established as well. Not nearly as many things would have come out of left field or had to be made up to fit the story. They gave Poe a criminal history for no other reason than to give him a tie to the criminal underworld so he could just know a guy who could hack robots. Then you never heard about his past again once they left that planet. It wasn't like Han Solo, who had criminal history, painted as being only about himself, only to find something to belong to for the first time and come back to save the day. Only to have his past catch up with him in the second movie, finally to free himself of it in the last. You couldn't have any of that kind of character arc because they started trying to lay groundwork too late in the game. Characters who were either criminally underdeveloped, or had their backgrounds changed to fit a new narrative just came across as shallow as a result. That's a pretty fair definition. It is true that was the thematic lesson of the Last Jedi (though I seem to remember most people hating it and saying she *needed* a pedigree to justify her power in the Force), upon consideration I don't think its really that big of a disconnect. The theme of TLJ seems to be, in this regard, you don't need to have a lineage or pedigree to be special or strong in the Force. The theme of Rise of Skywalker is it doesen't matter who you are or who your parents are or what your lineage is you can still choose your own path. Those sound pretty similar to me at the end of the day and not a direct contradiction. Which only leaves its lack of set up as a potential problem... And also remember JJ didn't go back to Canto Bight and reveal that broom boy had some fevered dream. That still happened. So, the point is your lineage doesen't matter, anyone can be strong in the Force (I mean there is still Finn), and you can choose your own destiny. I did see the theory advanced...or had it myself (memory sucks sometimes) that Snoke actually was just a puppet of Palpetine before this...aactually I think I heard/ had the idea right around the time Battlefront 2 came out with all the contingency plans for his death. Now this is before I thought that Palpetine would be able to come back 'in the flesh' so to speak and I thought his motivation...which the rest of the game supported...was to just essentally set it up so the Galaxy would burn. I don't think Palpy was pulling Kylo's strings...we don't know the exact timeline (or at least I don't) but I get the feeling that Ep 9 happened very shorty after 8...and so very shortly after Snoke's death Palpetine just happened to send a message which lured Kylo to him. Again no string pulling until they actually met but the new Supreme Leader did have a fairly typical and easy to predict reaction. Hux was a believer in the First Order...not Kylo Ren. I predicted his betrayal (though not his pathetic death) after TLJ... The First Order isn't defeated? How? Their Emperor is dead. Their Supreme Leader abdicated his throne and then died. Both their top two military commanders is dead and I wonder where they'd have the military forces to speak of. As far as them conquering the Galaxy we really don't know. Its both a Strength and a Weakness of these movies that we really don't know what has been happening throughout the rest of the Galaxy. We don't know how they are reacting or their feelings...but either way I think its a bit of a stretch to assume that they have beaten the galaxy into submission even with the events of Rise not withstanding. Poe was given a criminal background to help support the themes of idenity that was within the movie. Poe was a criminal...he chose not to be. Also Poe's backstory wasn't really gone into before this. I will admit dragging Palpetine back from the dead was maybe a little forced...could even be a retcon of Return of the Jedi...but then it also happened in the EU too. And while it may not have been handled the best, he was really just a backdrop to everything else that was happening.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 28, 2019 1:38:52 GMT
So were they a clan? A house? Just an enclave? What does this mean for the Mandalorian lore going forward? Does the Resol'nare still mean anything? What is the "way"? Has the knowledge of the Jedi really been so thoroughly erased within the minds of the Mandalorians in the past thirty years? They were one of the factions of the civil war. Bo Katan Kryze has worked with the Jedi on many occasions, and she has received the Darksaber from Sabine Wren, who has travelled with Jedi for many years. Has the Empire really succeeded so well that so few who live still remember the Jedi? That one scene showing it wasn't some ultra super hero beneath the armor was... I mean, they... managed to improve on the character by taking away one of it's defining traits so far. I am in awe. I do believe a few of my expectations were subverted, and not in Ruin's way.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 28, 2019 1:40:19 GMT
So were they a clan? A house? Just an enclave? What does this mean for the Mandalorian lore going forward? Does the Resol'nare still mean anything? What is the "way"? Has the knowledge of the Jedi really been so thoroughly erased within the minds of the Mandalorians in the past thirty years? They were one of the factions of the civil war. Bo Katan Kryze has worked with the Jedi on many occasions, and she has received the Darksaber from Sabine Wren, who has travelled with Jedi for many years. Has the Empire really succeeded so well that so few who live still remember the Jedi? That one scene showing it wasn't some ultra super hero beneath the armor was... I mean, they... managed to improve on the character by taking away one of it's defining traits so far. I am in awe. I do believe a few of my expectations were subverted, and not in Ruin's way.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 28, 2019 1:45:56 GMT
The First Order isn't defeated? How? Their Emperor is dead. Their Supreme Leader abdicated his throne and then died. Both their top two military commanders is dead and I wonder where they'd have the military forces to speak of. Well, that kinda describes the Empire as of the end of ROTJ. So I suppose we'll see the rise of an EVEN MORE SPACE-HITLERY organization to rise from the ashes of the First Order. The Second Order? Empire 2: Electric Boogaloo? Not "could be" a retcon. Is a retcon. Turns out everything Anakin and Luke went through was for nothing. Heck the entire Skywalker Saga turns out was really the Palpatine Saga. At least in Dark Empire the Emperor was ultimately defeated by the Skywalkers and Solos.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 28, 2019 1:50:52 GMT
With Gideon having the Dark Saber, things aren’t looking good for Bo Katan still being alive. That sucks since I really liked her character. But who knows, maybe she is in hiding or imprisoned and will show up later in the series.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 28, 2019 1:53:54 GMT
The First Order isn't defeated? How? Their Emperor is dead. Their Supreme Leader abdicated his throne and then died. Both their top two military commanders is dead and I wonder where they'd have the military forces to speak of. Well, that kinda describes the Empire as of the end of ROTJ. So I suppose we'll see the rise of an EVEN MORE SPACE-HITLERY organization to rise from the ashes of the First Order. The Second Order? Empire 2: Electric Boogaloo? Not "could be" a retcon. Is a retcon. Turns out everything Anakin and Luke went through was for nothing. Heck the entire Skywalker Saga turns out was really the Palpatine Saga. At least in Dark Empire the Emperor was ultimately defeated by the Skywalkers and Solos. *snort* I doubt it. I mean whatever forms the movies and canon takes from here...well I doubt we'll see anyone in the current iteration of the First Order pose a threat. There could be new threats but the Sith and the First Order as they stand now have been defeated... *sigh*. Everything Anakin and Luke went through was most certainly not for nothing. I just do not understand this mentality where people assume that these movies are attacking and negatinv everything that came before. Had Vader NOT thrown Palpy from that tower Luke would be DEAD. And the rebellion likely would have been defeated as a result...or there would've been no one to train Rey and stop the First/ Final Order in Episodes 7-9. They defeated the Empire. They stopped Palpetine. They made the sacrifices but just turns out Palpetine wasn't as *dead* as we thought. Well in Rise of Skywalker Palpetine was again defeated by a group of Skywalkers and Solos...just one of them was adopted.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 28, 2019 2:02:35 GMT
Well, that kinda describes the Empire as of the end of ROTJ. So I suppose we'll see the rise of an EVEN MORE SPACE-HITLERY organization to rise from the ashes of the First Order. The Second Order? Empire 2: Electric Boogaloo? Not "could be" a retcon. Is a retcon. Turns out everything Anakin and Luke went through was for nothing. Heck the entire Skywalker Saga turns out was really the Palpatine Saga. At least in Dark Empire the Emperor was ultimately defeated by the Skywalkers and Solos. *snort* I doubt it. I mean whatever forms the movies and canon takes from here...well I doubt we'll see anyone in the current iteration of the First Order pose a threat. There could be new threats but the Sith and the First Order as they stand now have been defeated... *sigh*. Everything Anakin and Luke went through was most certainly not for nothing. I just do not understand this mentality where people assume that these movies are attacking and negatinv everything that came before. Had Vader NOT thrown Palpy from that tower Luke would be DEAD. And the rebellion likely would have been defeated as a result...or there would've been no one to train Rey and stop the First/ Final Order in Episodes 7-9. They defeated the Empire. They stopped Palpetine. They made the sacrifices but just turns out Palpetine wasn't as *dead* as we thought. Well in Rise of Skywalker Palpetine was again defeated by a group of Skywalkers and Solos...just one of them was adopted. Given the Rebellion is still pretty much the rebellion (excuse me, "Resistance" ) in the sequels, it doesn't look like it matters if they won or lost. And Rey got FA training from Luke, so that sure doesn't matter. Hell she's mind controlling storm troopers, moving tons or rocks effortlessly, oneshotting TIE fighters, and fighting off waves of Imperial guards with no training anyway, so that doesn't matter either. No, Palpatine was defeated by a Palpatine super-Jedi Goddess who coopted the name Skywalker because hey, she's taken everything else from them. Heck, she knew Luke for all of three days, he refused to train her, and she ended up beating the cr*p out of him before robbing him and leaving anyway, I fail to see how she'd think of him as "adopting" her anyway.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 28, 2019 3:20:04 GMT
It is true that was the thematic lesson of the Last Jedi (though I seem to remember most people hating it and saying she *needed* a pedigree to justify her power in the Force), upon consideration I don't think its really that big of a disconnect. The theme of TLJ seems to be, in this regard, you don't need to have a lineage or pedigree to be special or strong in the Force. The theme of Rise of Skywalker is it doesen't matter who you are or who your parents are or what your lineage is you can still choose your own path. Those sound pretty similar to me at the end of the day and not a direct contradiction. Which only leaves its lack of set up as a potential problem... And also remember JJ didn't go back to Canto Bight and reveal that broom boy had some fevered dream. That still happened. So, the point is your lineage doesen't matter, anyone can be strong in the Force (I mean there is still Finn), and you can choose your own destiny. I did see the theory advanced...or had it myself (memory sucks sometimes) that Snoke actually was just a puppet of Palpetine before this...aactually I think I heard/ had the idea right around the time Battlefront 2 came out with all the contingency plans for his death. Now this is before I thought that Palpetine would be able to come back 'in the flesh' so to speak and I thought his motivation...which the rest of the game supported...was to just essentally set it up so the Galaxy would burn. I don't think Palpy was pulling Kylo's strings...we don't know the exact timeline (or at least I don't) but I get the feeling that Ep 9 happened very shorty after 8...and so very shortly after Snoke's death Palpetine just happened to send a message which lured Kylo to him. Again no string pulling until they actually met but the new Supreme Leader did have a fairly typical and easy to predict reaction. Hux was a believer in the First Order...not Kylo Ren. I predicted his betrayal (though not his pathetic death) after TLJ... The First Order isn't defeated? How? Their Emperor is dead. Their Supreme Leader abdicated his throne and then died. Both their top two military commanders is dead and I wonder where they'd have the military forces to speak of. As far as them conquering the Galaxy we really don't know. Its both a Strength and a Weakness of these movies that we really don't know what has been happening throughout the rest of the Galaxy. We don't know how they are reacting or their feelings...but either way I think its a bit of a stretch to assume that they have beaten the galaxy into submission even with the events of Rise not withstanding. Poe was given a criminal background to help support the themes of idenity that was within the movie. Poe was a criminal...he chose not to be. Also Poe's backstory wasn't really gone into before this. I will admit dragging Palpetine back from the dead was maybe a little forced...could even be a retcon of Return of the Jedi...but then it also happened in the EU too. And while it may not have been handled the best, he was really just a backdrop to everything else that was happening. How is the First Order defeated. They went and destroyed the Final Order ships. At what point did the first Order, which had already been controlling the galaxy lose their power. Kylo had a full room full of generals in the beginning of the movie. Did these people just vanish, stop fighting for the cause? And the First Order had definitely taken control of the galaxy. Just listen to way the resistance was talking. They're talking about how they're sending out transmissions begging for help and no one will answer. The resistance is down to just the people at that one base, all looking tired and defeated. Poe yelling at Rey that there won't be a galaxy left to save by the time she gets done training. Obviously the First Order has pretty much the same control that the Empire had in the original trilogy. If Poe was given a criminal background to promote the themes in the movie is would have been something that carried with him throughout the movie, and fed into his character arc. It wouldn't have been, where did you learn to hot wire things? Oh I have this past, all thrown together conveniently just in time to know a droid hacker, then never mentioned again after. Same a girl from said past who shows up and just happens to have a convenient plot device they need, but also holds the key to a better future for her. An item which she just hands over to Poe without not one stitch of reconciliation from whatever happened between them. No mention of Poe's past, or the his past with her after they're sloppily thrown together and used to push the plot. Palpatine being forced in just creates issues all through the movies. If you can mount a death star ray on a destroyer why the hell would waste vast amounts of resources building a space station that needs to suck a star dry to fire, and can only do so once every day or two. Talk about inefficiency. How did no one know Palaptine was alive before now? All these materials and workers building these ships and no one in Kylo's meeting with the generals knew. No one if First Order leadership knew. How did Hux just happen to find out at the start of ROTS? None of it makes sense. Too many things just conveniently happened over and over again, to the point it just wasn't believable. How does what Hux did even jive with his reasoning for becoming a spy? He knows the Emperor is alive, why not just undermine Kylo to him like he did with Snoke. Telling the resistance about Palpatine only hurts Palpatine. If the resistance goes and stops Palpatine and the FInal Order, Kylo is then elevated to Supreme Leader again leading the First Order giving him exactly what he wanted. It made no sense. None whatsoever. In the EU, Palpatine had a factory of clones of himself, which his life force transferred into. Then he would wield the force through the clones. But being clones they couldn;t handle the power and would deteriorate rapidly, so he had to keep switching. But at no time was there a separate clone walking around using the force. Which is why the idea of making a Snoke in a tub that can use the force to that degree is so ridiculous. If it's that easy just make an army of them.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 28, 2019 4:16:37 GMT
It is true that was the thematic lesson of the Last Jedi (though I seem to remember most people hating it and saying she *needed* a pedigree to justify her power in the Force), upon consideration I don't think its really that big of a disconnect. The theme of TLJ seems to be, in this regard, you don't need to have a lineage or pedigree to be special or strong in the Force. The theme of Rise of Skywalker is it doesen't matter who you are or who your parents are or what your lineage is you can still choose your own path. Those sound pretty similar to me at the end of the day and not a direct contradiction. Which only leaves its lack of set up as a potential problem... And also remember JJ didn't go back to Canto Bight and reveal that broom boy had some fevered dream. That still happened. So, the point is your lineage doesen't matter, anyone can be strong in the Force (I mean there is still Finn), and you can choose your own destiny. I did see the theory advanced...or had it myself (memory sucks sometimes) that Snoke actually was just a puppet of Palpetine before this...aactually I think I heard/ had the idea right around the time Battlefront 2 came out with all the contingency plans for his death. Now this is before I thought that Palpetine would be able to come back 'in the flesh' so to speak and I thought his motivation...which the rest of the game supported...was to just essentally set it up so the Galaxy would burn. I don't think Palpy was pulling Kylo's strings...we don't know the exact timeline (or at least I don't) but I get the feeling that Ep 9 happened very shorty after 8...and so very shortly after Snoke's death Palpetine just happened to send a message which lured Kylo to him. Again no string pulling until they actually met but the new Supreme Leader did have a fairly typical and easy to predict reaction. Hux was a believer in the First Order...not Kylo Ren. I predicted his betrayal (though not his pathetic death) after TLJ... The First Order isn't defeated? How? Their Emperor is dead. Their Supreme Leader abdicated his throne and then died. Both their top two military commanders is dead and I wonder where they'd have the military forces to speak of. As far as them conquering the Galaxy we really don't know. Its both a Strength and a Weakness of these movies that we really don't know what has been happening throughout the rest of the Galaxy. We don't know how they are reacting or their feelings...but either way I think its a bit of a stretch to assume that they have beaten the galaxy into submission even with the events of Rise not withstanding. Poe was given a criminal background to help support the themes of idenity that was within the movie. Poe was a criminal...he chose not to be. Also Poe's backstory wasn't really gone into before this. I will admit dragging Palpetine back from the dead was maybe a little forced...could even be a retcon of Return of the Jedi...but then it also happened in the EU too. And while it may not have been handled the best, he was really just a backdrop to everything else that was happening. How is the First Order defeated. They went and destroyed the Final Order ships. At what point did the first Order, which had already been controlling the galaxy lose their power. Kylo had a full room full of generals in the beginning of the movie. Did these people just vanish, stop fighting for the cause? And the First Order had definitely taken control of the galaxy. Just listen to way the resistance was talking. They're talking about how they're sending out transmissions begging for help and no one will answer. The resistance is down to just the people at that one base, all looking tired and defeated. Poe yelling at Rey that there won't be a galaxy left to save by the time she gets done training. Obviously the First Order has pretty much the same control that the Empire had in the original trilogy. If Poe was given a criminal background to promote the themes in the movie is would have been something that carried with him throughout the movie, and fed into his character arc. It wouldn't have been, where did you learn to hot wire things? Oh I have this past, all thrown together conveniently just in time to know a droid hacker, then never mentioned again after. Same a girl from said past who shows up and just happens to have a convenient plot device they need, but also holds the key to a better future for her. An item which she just hands over to Poe without not one stitch of reconciliation from whatever happened between them. No mention of Poe's past, or the his past with her after they're sloppily thrown together and used to push the plot. Palpatine being forced in just creates issues all through the movies. If you can mount a death star ray on a destroyer why the hell would waste vast amounts of resources building a space station that needs to suck a star dry to fire, and can only do so once every day or two. Talk about inefficiency. How did no one know Palaptine was alive before now? All these materials and workers building these ships and no one in Kylo's meeting with the generals knew. No one if First Order leadership knew. How did Hux just happen to find out at the start of ROTS? None of it makes sense. Too many things just conveniently happened over and over again, to the point it just wasn't believable. How does what Hux did even jive with his reasoning for becoming a spy? He knows the Emperor is alive, why not just undermine Kylo to him like he did with Snoke. Telling the resistance about Palpatine only hurts Palpatine. If the resistance goes and stops Palpatine and the FInal Order, Kylo is then elevated to Supreme Leader again leading the First Order giving him exactly what he wanted. It made no sense. None whatsoever. In the EU, Palpatine had a factory of clones of himself, which his life force transferred into. Then he would wield the force through the clones. But being clones they couldn;t handle the power and would deteriorate rapidly, so he had to keep switching. But at no time was there a separate clone walking around using the force. Which is why the idea of making a Snoke in a tub that can use the force to that degree is so ridiculous. If it's that easy just make an army of them. I don't buy it. Not saying they don't have power but at no point did they give any indication they had control of the Galaxy. If they did Kylo and co wouldn't have been so eager for the Final Order Fleet to show up. If the 'First Order' is anything more then a couple of Star Destroyers and a few garrisons of Stormtroopers here and there, I'd be shocked. Or too many things that have been misintrepreted, for some reason. Hux found out when the rest of the Galaxy found out. He only knew that Kylo Ren was off looking for something that could lead them to the planet in question. No one else knew because Palpetine was being secretive and Exegol was on a lost planet that no one knew how to find, other then Palpetine and Vader, even Luke couldn't find it. As for Starkiller base versus the Sith Eternal...different tech bases and superior design. I mean hell Starkiller base was pretty effective given that it could wipe out entire Solar Systems... Palpetine was ELEVATING Kylo Ren, not undermining him. Again Hux does not like Kylo (can't blame him) and he sees the guy...possibly...being set up as the next Emperor, why wouldn't he spy on him and try and overthrow him? Working with Palpetine wouldn't cut it because, again, Palpetine was looking as though he were supporting Kylo... All this made perfect sense to me when I watched it or I figured it out by thinking on it later.
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