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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 30, 2019 3:03:01 GMT
It's almost the new year & this is the dumbest shit I have seen all year long Was trying to find in the OT where exactly did Obi Wan or Yoda ask Luke to kill Vader, as this "elegant statement" person in that video says. Unless confront or conquer (Yoda) or face (Obi Wan) are always equivalent to kill, I could not find it anywhere... And the irony is that Luke finds the way to conquer both the Emperor and his father, without killing them. The same Yoda and Obi-Wan that talked about how Vader and Sidious has to be stopped? The same who scoffed at the idea of Vader being saved? Therefore, if you use your brains for even a second it’s obvious what they mean by stop them. Hence the irony, since Luke didn’t do what the Jedi wanted and succeeded where they failed. That’s not even counting the Prequels making it completely obvious they meant kill.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 3:07:57 GMT
Was trying to find in the OT where exactly did Obi Wan or Yoda ask Luke to kill Vader, as this "elegant statement" person in that video says. Unless confront or conquer (Yoda) or face (Obi Wan) are always equivalent to kill, I could not find it anywhere... And the irony is that Luke finds the way to conquer both the Emperor and his father, without killing them. The same Yoda and Obi-Wan that talked about how Vader and Sidious has to be stopped? The same who scoffed at the idea of Vader being saved? Therefore, if you use your brains for even a second it’s obvious what they mean by stop them. Hence the irony, since Luke didn’t do what the Jedi wanted and succeeded where they failed. That’s not even counting the Prequels making it completely obvious they meant kill. Pretty much this. Yoda/ Obi-Wan believed Vader/ Anakin was too far gone. Hell when Luke said he wouldn't fight Vader in Return of the Jedi Obi-Wan's answer, the coolest of cool Jedi's answer to him was "THEN THE EMPEROR HAS ALREADY WON" (just caps for emphasis). Edit: Now I can believe that this was just reverse psychology and that they were basically just being so aggressive in the mere hope that Luke would tell em to fuck off and do his job redeeming him...but that is more wish fullfillment on my part then an actual part of anything supported by the events of the movies. The fact is Obi-Wan and Yoda did lie to Luke, manipulated him, and sent him on a collision course with a person who they knew was his father.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 30, 2019 3:18:52 GMT
The same Yoda and Obi-Wan that talked about how Vader and Sidious has to be stopped? The same who scoffed at the idea of Vader being saved? Therefore, if you use your brains for even a second it’s obvious what they mean by stop them. Hence the irony, since Luke didn’t do what the Jedi wanted and succeeded where they failed. That’s not even counting the Prequels making it completely obvious they meant kill. Pretty much this. Yoda/ Obi-Wan believed Vader/ Anakin was too far gone. Except that you are now ascribing meaning beyond what was stated to the scene and applying a mentality that would not be present in those characters given that they followed the Jedi Code to the extent that they were in attuned with the Force enough to be cast back into the material plane as spirits. And as I recall the Jedi venerating all life isn't that got scrubbed away with the EU, so flatly contradictory to suit the narrative of defending a video about someone defending the movie that had the gall to kill Luke fucking Skywalker and turn him into a space bum. So yeah, this entire back forth to me seems rather pointless and rather easy to debunk given that by ascribed motives in just the films, these are the two that coined the term, from a certain point of view. So at the very least maintain enough logical consistency to acknowledge that you are asserting your own opinion of their intention rather then some stated or assumed fact.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 3:24:53 GMT
Pretty much this. Yoda/ Obi-Wan believed Vader/ Anakin was too far gone. Except that you are now ascribing meaning beyond what was stated to the scene and applying a mentality that would not be present in those characters given that they followed the Jedi Code to the extent that they were in attuned with the Force enough to be cast back into the material plane as spirits. And as I recall the Jedi venerating all life isn't that got scrubbed away with the EU, so flatly contradictory to suit the narrative of defending a video about someone defending the movie that had the gall to kill Luke fucking Skywalker and turn him into a space bum. So yeah, this entire back forth to me seems rather pointless and rather easy to debunk given that by ascribed motives in just the films, these are the two that coined the term, from a certain point of view. So at the very least maintain enough logical consistency to acknowledge that you are asserting your own opinion of their intention rather then some stated or assumed fact. Yes, sure, as I am constantly reminded and forced to remind myself this is obviously my opinion. However it is one supported by the narrative of the movie. And maybe you hit the reply button before I added my edit, so I will restate. There is only two, logical, results of Obi-Wan's and Yoda's actions and word choices throughout the movies. Either A. They were intending for Luke to kill Vader, either without the knowledge that he was his father or they would've told him after he had proven himself sufficiently Jedi to recognize that the 'dark side has consumed Vader, he is no longer my father, there is no hope for him, therefore I must destroy him with righteous passionatleness' Or B. It was an attempt at reverse psychology. Obi-Wan and Yoda were continuing to lie to Luke (as they had already done to that point) they fully believed that Anakin could be turned back to the light, they believed there was still good in him, and they had fully recognized the failure of their own absolutist morality in creating the Empire in the first place so they have grown and learned...but they couldn't tell Luke that because in so telling it may have not happened...for some reason. Again if it was A. then their intent WAS to kill have Luke kill Vader and Sideous.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 30, 2019 3:32:30 GMT
Except that you are now ascribing meaning beyond what was stated to the scene and applying a mentality that would not be present in those characters given that they followed the Jedi Code to the extent that they were in attuned with the Force enough to be cast back into the material plane as spirits. And as I recall the Jedi venerating all life isn't that got scrubbed away with the EU, so flatly contradictory to suit the narrative of defending a video about someone defending the movie that had the gall to kill Luke fucking Skywalker and turn him into a space bum. So yeah, this entire back forth to me seems rather pointless and rather easy to debunk given that by ascribed motives in just the films, these are the two that coined the term, from a certain point of view. So at the very least maintain enough logical consistency to acknowledge that you are asserting your own opinion of their intention rather then some stated or assumed fact. it is one supported by the narrative of the movie. Not particularly. I don't really care for what your logical assertions are about the film where the stated goal isn't one of rational logic but of theology.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 3:34:45 GMT
Sometimes I think its amzing that these characters are still so likeable despite being such despicable bastards most of the time.
Though then on the flip side I liked Luke in Last Jedi so much he is back to being my favorite character in the saga.
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docsteely
N6
Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by docsteely on Dec 30, 2019 3:53:33 GMT
Was trying to find in the OT where exactly did Obi Wan or Yoda ask Luke to kill Vader, as this "elegant statement" person in that video says. Unless confront or conquer (Yoda) or face (Obi Wan) are always equivalent to kill, I could not find it anywhere... And the irony is that Luke finds the way to conquer both the Emperor and his father, without killing them. The same Yoda and Obi-Wan that talked about how Vader and Sidious has to be stopped? The same who scoffed at the idea of Vader being saved? Therefore, if you use your brains for even a second it’s obvious what they mean by stop them. Hence the irony, since Luke didn’t do what the Jedi wanted and succeeded where they failed. That’s not even counting the Prequels making it completely obvious they meant kill. Please be so kind as to remain polite. I've been "using my brains for more than a second" since before most of the people here were even born. Also the correct form is "Vader and Sidious have to be stopped" as there are two of them. If you can be impolite I can be a Nazi grammar. Again I fail to see the equivalence between stopping and killing. As for the prequels I'll give you that Obi Wan agreed that the "Sith must be destroyed", but remember that he repeatedly told Yoda that he cannot kill Anakin. And ultimately he doesn't kill Anakin, he leaves him to his fate. While it's true that the prequels do not present the Jedi in a flattering way, to paint them as outright malicious in their intent is too far fetched imo. With the exception of Qui-Gon, they were too complacent and too rigid to think outside the box. That's why Yoda and Obi Wan put their hopes in Luke, as they could not see a way of defeating the Sith. They had tried violence and failed, both of them. And Luke succeeds because he refuses the violent path in the end. Only to find it once more, because his nephew had a bad dream.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 3:56:50 GMT
The same Yoda and Obi-Wan that talked about how Vader and Sidious has to be stopped? The same who scoffed at the idea of Vader being saved? Therefore, if you use your brains for even a second it’s obvious what they mean by stop them. Hence the irony, since Luke didn’t do what the Jedi wanted and succeeded where they failed. That’s not even counting the Prequels making it completely obvious they meant kill. Please be so kind as to remain polite. I've been "using my brains for more than a second" since before most of the people here were even born. Also the correct form is "Vader and Sidious have to be stopped" as there are two of them. If you can be impolite I can be a Nazi grammar. Again I fail to see the equivalence between stopping and killing. As for the prequels I'll give you that Obi Wan agreed that the "Sith must be destroyed", but remember that he repeatedly told Yoda that he cannot kill Anakin. And ultimately he doesn't kill Anakin, he leaves him to his fate. While it's true that the prequels do not present the Jedi in a flattering way, to paint them as outright malicious in their intent is too far fetched imo. With the exception of Qui-Gon, they were too complacent and too rigid to think outside the box. That's why Yoda and Obi Wan put their hopes in Luke, as they could not see a way of defeating the Sith. They had tried violence and failed, both of them. And Luke succeeds because he refuses the violent path in the end. Only to find it once more, because his nephew had a bad dream. What do you think they meant by stop? Why was Obi-Wan so insistent that 'the Emperor had already won' when Luke refused to confront Vader? I guess just cut off all his limbs and stuff them down a garbage chute?
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docsteely
N6
Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Posts: 5,528 Likes: 23,188
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Post by docsteely on Dec 30, 2019 4:12:20 GMT
Please be so kind as to remain polite. I've been "using my brains for more than a second" since before most of the people here were even born. Also the correct form is "Vader and Sidious have to be stopped" as there are two of them. If you can be impolite I can be a Nazi grammar. Again I fail to see the equivalence between stopping and killing. As for the prequels I'll give you that Obi Wan agreed that the "Sith must be destroyed", but remember that he repeatedly told Yoda that he cannot kill Anakin. And ultimately he doesn't kill Anakin, he leaves him to his fate. While it's true that the prequels do not present the Jedi in a flattering way, to paint them as outright malicious in their intent is too far fetched imo. With the exception of Qui-Gon, they were too complacent and too rigid to think outside the box. That's why Yoda and Obi Wan put their hopes in Luke, as they could not see a way of defeating the Sith. They had tried violence and failed, both of them. And Luke succeeds because he refuses the violent path in the end. Only to find it once more, because his nephew had a bad dream. What do you think they meant by stop? Why was Obi-Wan so insistent that 'the Emperor had already won' when Luke refused to confront Vader? I guess just cut off all his limbs and stuff them down a garbage chute? Obi Wan was so insistent because he knew that sooner or later for things to change, a confrontation between the light side (Luke) and the dark side (Vader and Sidious) was inevitable. The end result was something that neither him, nor Yoda could foresee. They both emphasize the word hope, because it's obvious for both: they don't have the answer, they know the Sith must be stopped but they don't know how. I know that he doesn't give a chance to Anakin's redemption because he had tried, as his friend, and failed. But he doesn't say outright to Luke "you are going to fail", he just states: "he's more a machine than a man". And Luke surprises and surpasses both of them...
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 4:18:10 GMT
What do you think they meant by stop? Why was Obi-Wan so insistent that 'the Emperor had already won' when Luke refused to confront Vader? I guess just cut off all his limbs and stuff them down a garbage chute? Obi Wan was so insistent because he knew that sooner or later for things to change, a confrontation between the light side (Luke) and the dark side (Vader and Sidious) was inevitable. The end result was something that neither him, nor Yoda could foresee. They both emphasize the word hope, because it's obvious for both: they don't have the answer, they know the Sith must be stopped but they don't know how. I know that he doesn't give a chance to Anakin's redemption because he had tried, as his friend, and failed. But he doesn't say outright to Luke "you are going to fail", he just states: "he's more a machine than a man". And Luke surprises and surpasses both of them... You might be right, I don't think I thought of it in those terms before the idea being 'we don't know how you are going to fight against him but we are hoping for the best, go get him sucker'
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docsteely
N6
Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by docsteely on Dec 30, 2019 4:27:01 GMT
Obi Wan was so insistent because he knew that sooner or later for things to change, a confrontation between the light side (Luke) and the dark side (Vader and Sidious) was inevitable. The end result was something that neither him, nor Yoda could foresee. They both emphasize the word hope, because it's obvious for both: they don't have the answer, they know the Sith must be stopped but they don't know how. I know that he doesn't give a chance to Anakin's redemption because he had tried, as his friend, and failed. But he doesn't say outright to Luke "you are going to fail", he just states: "he's more a machine than a man". And Luke surprises and surpasses both of them... You might be right, I don't think I thought of it in those terms before the idea being 'we don't know how you are going to fight against him but we are hoping for the best, go get him sucker' Why else do they insist he's "not ready" when he first goes to confront Vader? They want him to finish his Jedi training, but when Luke comes back to Yoda, Yoda says: "already know you that which you need". Their whole attitude is "we don't know how you are going to stop them, so we'll prepare you for the worst, hoping that you'll succeed where we failed". That's why they do not need to tell Luke anything at the end celebrations. He had succeeded beyond their wildest dream.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 5:51:02 GMT
Trying to rank all my favorite Star Wars things because that's what I do and having trouble with the music...there are so many good tracks! A top 50 list probably couldn't do it justice. There is also a rather huge back up in 'favorite heroes'.
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Iakus
N7
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 14:03:15 GMT
It's almost the new year & this is the dumbest shit I have seen all year long Was trying to find in the OT where exactly did Obi Wan or Yoda ask Luke to kill Vader, as this "elegant statement" person in that video says. Unless confront or conquer (Yoda) or face (Obi Wan) are always equivalent to kill, I could not find it anywhere... And the irony is that Luke finds the way to conquer both the Emperor and his father, without killing them. P.S. To be turned by the Last Dumpster fire into this: and this: And this is exactly why I'm rereading the Heir to the Empire trilogy rather than paying Disney money to see The Fall of Skywalker. Luke Skywalker, not Jake.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 14:11:17 GMT
Except that you are now ascribing meaning beyond what was stated to the scene and applying a mentality that would not be present in those characters given that they followed the Jedi Code to the extent that they were in attuned with the Force enough to be cast back into the material plane as spirits. And as I recall the Jedi venerating all life isn't that got scrubbed away with the EU, so flatly contradictory to suit the narrative of defending a video about someone defending the movie that had the gall to kill Luke fucking Skywalker and turn him into a space bum. So yeah, this entire back forth to me seems rather pointless and rather easy to debunk given that by ascribed motives in just the films, these are the two that coined the term, from a certain point of view. So at the very least maintain enough logical consistency to acknowledge that you are asserting your own opinion of their intention rather then some stated or assumed fact. Yes, sure, as I am constantly reminded and forced to remind myself this is obviously my opinion. However it is one supported by the narrative of the movie. And maybe you hit the reply button before I added my edit, so I will restate. There is only two, logical, results of Obi-Wan's and Yoda's actions and word choices throughout the movies. Either A. They were intending for Luke to kill Vader, either without the knowledge that he was his father or they would've told him after he had proven himself sufficiently Jedi to recognize that the 'dark side has consumed Vader, he is no longer my father, there is no hope for him, therefore I must destroy him with righteous passionatleness' Or B. It was an attempt at reverse psychology. Obi-Wan and Yoda were continuing to lie to Luke (as they had already done to that point) they fully believed that Anakin could be turned back to the light, they believed there was still good in him, and they had fully recognized the failure of their own absolutist morality in creating the Empire in the first place so they have grown and learned...but they couldn't tell Luke that because in so telling it may have not happened...for some reason. Again if it was A. then their intent WAS to kill have Luke kill Vader and Sideous. As opposed to, say, capturing and imprisoning them? Leading the Rebellion to victory? "Confronting" Vader may indeed include his death, but that is NOT the express purpose of the confrontation "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 14:18:38 GMT
You might be right, I don't think I thought of it in those terms before the idea being 'we don't know how you are going to fight against him but we are hoping for the best, go get him sucker' Why else do they insist he's "not ready" when he first goes to confront Vader? They want him to finish his Jedi training, but when Luke comes back to Yoda, Yoda says: "already know you that which you need". Their whole attitude is "we don't know how you are going to stop them, so we'll prepare you for the worst, hoping that you'll succeed where we failed". That's why they do not need to tell Luke anything at the end celebrations. He had succeeded beyond their wildest dream. Except thanks to Disney, he really didn't accomplish anything at all...
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N7
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Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,912
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 14:24:06 GMT
What do you think they meant by stop? Why was Obi-Wan so insistent that 'the Emperor had already won' when Luke refused to confront Vader? I guess just cut off all his limbs and stuff them down a garbage chute? Obi Wan was so insistent because he knew that sooner or later for things to change, a confrontation between the light side (Luke) and the dark side (Vader and Sidious) was inevitable. The end result was something that neither him, nor Yoda could foresee. They both emphasize the word hope, because it's obvious for both: they don't have the answer, they know the Sith must be stopped but they don't know how. I know that he doesn't give a chance to Anakin's redemption because he had tried, as his friend, and failed. But he doesn't say outright to Luke "you are going to fail", he just states: "he's more a machine than a man". And Luke surprises and surpasses both of them... Plus the logical opposite of refusing to confront Vader is to let him and the Emperor continue unopposed. Either by doing what Leia urged and run away, or try to redeem Vader only to end up corrupted himself.
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docsteely
N6
Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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XBL Gamertag: docsteely
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Posts: 5,528 Likes: 23,188
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by docsteely on Dec 30, 2019 14:45:33 GMT
Obi Wan was so insistent because he knew that sooner or later for things to change, a confrontation between the light side (Luke) and the dark side (Vader and Sidious) was inevitable. The end result was something that neither him, nor Yoda could foresee. They both emphasize the word hope, because it's obvious for both: they don't have the answer, they know the Sith must be stopped but they don't know how. I know that he doesn't give a chance to Anakin's redemption because he had tried, as his friend, and failed. But he doesn't say outright to Luke "you are going to fail", he just states: "he's more a machine than a man". And Luke surprises and surpasses both of them... Plus the logical opposite of refusing to confront Vader is to let him and the Emperor continue unopposed. Either by doing what Leia urged and run away, or try to redeem Vader only to end up corrupted himself. Exactly my point when I wrote "for things to change". Obi Wan and Yoda knew that Vader and the Emperor had to be stopped; they had no idea how Luke (or Leia) could succeed where they failed, but they hoped a fully trained Luke would be better than them and find a way. And that he did and that is why he remains for me the most powerful Jedi in the SW history. He found a way to win a fight by giving up fighting and a way to redeem the irredeemable.
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 30, 2019 18:45:46 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 19:04:06 GMT
Why else do they insist he's "not ready" when he first goes to confront Vader? They want him to finish his Jedi training, but when Luke comes back to Yoda, Yoda says: "already know you that which you need". Their whole attitude is "we don't know how you are going to stop them, so we'll prepare you for the worst, hoping that you'll succeed where we failed". That's why they do not need to tell Luke anything at the end celebrations. He had succeeded beyond their wildest dream. Except thanks to Disney, he really didn't accomplish anything at all... You really believe that Luke has accomplished nothing of note? Because of Disney?
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Iakus
N7
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Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,912
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 19:05:45 GMT
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Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
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Obadiah
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obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 30, 2019 19:48:29 GMT
Except thanks to Disney, he really didn't accomplish anything at all... You really believe that Luke has accomplished nothing of note? Because of Disney? Luke defeated the Empire, and the First Order still managed to rise up with the resources to have Star Destroyers, Command ships, and Dreadnaughts, INDEPENDENT of Palpatine building a completely separate and massive fleet. Given the persistence and resources of the dark side, can any hero on the light side legitimately be said to have accomplished anything of note? 🤣
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Hanako Ikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 30, 2019 21:30:55 GMT
You really believe that Luke has accomplished nothing of note? Because of Disney? Luke defeated the Empire, and the First Order still managed to rise up with the resources to have Star Destroyers, Command ships, and Dreadnaughts, INDEPENDENT of Palpatine building a completely separate and massive fleet. Given the persistence and resources of the dark side, can any hero on the light side legitimately be said to have accomplished anything of note? 🤣 Luke still helped grant the entire galaxy about thirty years of peace after decades of various wars. That’s certainly something of note.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 21:42:28 GMT
Except thanks to Disney, he really didn't accomplish anything at all... You really believe that Luke has accomplished nothing of note? Because of Disney? He failed to defeat the Emperor. He failed to reestablish the Jedi (Yoda's dying instructions) He failed his nephew He sat on his *ss drinking green milk while the First Order tore through the New Republic and the Resistance. He failed Han and Leia. Not just with Ben, but by abandoning them when the galaxy needed them most. He couldn't even be bothered to teach Rey the basics of the Force or being a Jedi. He redeemed Anakin, which is not nothing, I guess. But even Anakin's sacrifice is largely wasted. And given his future actions, even this redemption rings hollow with Luke.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 21:43:27 GMT
Luke defeated the Empire, and the First Order still managed to rise up with the resources to have Star Destroyers, Command ships, and Dreadnaughts, INDEPENDENT of Palpatine building a completely separate and massive fleet. Given the persistence and resources of the dark side, can any hero on the light side legitimately be said to have accomplished anything of note? 🤣 Luke still helped grant the entire galaxy about thirty years of peace after decades of various wars. That’s certainly something of note. Not to mention that Anakin did bring balance to the Force. However temporarily. *** Another thing I've realized in the wake of the movie is that Rey's character arc does actually make a great deal of sense and does, imo, flow naturally from her character arc in the rest of the movie. In The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi her big flaw was a sense of hero worship/ such a desire to find out who her parents were and that they'd come back for her that she was willing to put herself in terrible danger, by living on Jakku, in the hope that someday...maybe...her parents would come back for her. She was constantly looking to someone else to be her savior, to complete her, and to give her life meaning that the only way she could have belonging in the story is if her parents were somehow someone special. Or if she could look to a hero figure for a substitute. Kylo, Han, Luke, even Leia to an extent. All she was looking at as potential surrogate saviors. This of course all came crashing down when Kylo told her she was *no one*, suddenly all she had was herself to try and give herself meaning...and she looks in the mirror and discovers that she is a powerful space witch with anger problems and resentment over her crappy life...which the legends have all told her was a path to being the ultimate evil. Her arc in the Rise of Skywalker was a natural search for an identity after discovering that her previous search for an identity was fruitless. Even after discovering she did indeed have a lineage, her big lie in a way making one last stab at dragging her back down in the darkness, she made the commitment that ultimatley does not matter. Even if your grandfather is Space Hitler that does not control your destiny. JJ kind of said it best in one of his interviews... Although I do wish these people would think what is best for the characters rather then what is the worse thing they can hear...it worked out in this case though.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,912
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 21:45:29 GMT
You really believe that Luke has accomplished nothing of note? Because of Disney? Luke defeated the Empire, and the First Order still managed to rise up with the resources to have Star Destroyers, Command ships, and Dreadnaughts, INDEPENDENT of Palpatine building a completely separate and massive fleet. Given the persistence and resources of the dark side, can any hero on the light side legitimately be said to have accomplished anything of note? 🤣 Not as long as directors keep xeroxing the original movie and scraping off the serial numbers Rebellion=Resistance Galactic Empire=First Order etc
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