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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 21:48:13 GMT
You really believe that Luke has accomplished nothing of note? Because of Disney? He failed to defeat the Emperor. He failed to reestablish the Jedi (Yoda's dying instructions) He failed his nephew He sat on his *ss drinking green milk while the First Order tore through the New Republic and the Resistance. He failed Han and Leia. Not just with Ben, but by abandoning them when the galaxy needed them most. He couldn't even be bothered to teach Rey the basics of the Force or being a Jedi. He redeemed Anakin, which is not nothing, I guess. But even Anakin's sacrifice is largely wasted. And given his future actions, even this redemption rings hollow with Luke. He did defeat the Emperor and caused the Empire to scatter. He failed to 'pass on what he had learned, strength, mastery, but also failure.' Yep. For a while sure...until he got a pep talk got off his arse and kicked some serious butt. He taught her quite a good deal both by his actions and his actual teachings. Rey *needed* to hear those lessons and hell so did Luke, just that Luke...initially...drew the wrong conclusions. I think the big problem is the idea that failure is some absolute: Once you have failed that is a permenant mark on your record that can't be undone. But what is important about failure is how you react to it what you do...and yes Luke didn't take his failures too well at first, fearing that his Failure doomed him for eternity, but really...it did not. And once he realized that he became a badass again. Then he passed sort of the same lesson onto Rey when she was doubting herself.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 21:48:43 GMT
Luke defeated the Empire, and the First Order still managed to rise up with the resources to have Star Destroyers, Command ships, and Dreadnaughts, INDEPENDENT of Palpatine building a completely separate and massive fleet. Given the persistence and resources of the dark side, can any hero on the light side legitimately be said to have accomplished anything of note? 🤣 Not as long as directors keep xeroxing the original movie and scraping off the serial numbers Rebellion=Resistance Galactic Empire=First Order etc Please don't insult the First Order like that.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 21:59:28 GMT
Luke still helped grant the entire galaxy about thirty years of peace after decades of various wars. That’s certainly something of note. Not to mention that Anakin did bring balance to the Force. However temporarily. *** Another thing I've realized in the wake of the movie is that Rey's character arc does actually make a great deal of sense and does, imo, flow naturally from her character arc in the rest of the movie. In The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi her big flaw was a sense of hero worship/ such a desire to find out who her parents were and that they'd come back for her that she was willing to put herself in terrible danger, by living on Jakku, in the hope that someday...maybe...her parents would come back for her. She was constantly looking to someone else to be her savior, to complete her, and to give her life meaning that the only way she could have belonging in the story is if her parents were somehow someone special. Or if she could look to a hero figure for a substitute. Kylo, Han, Luke, even Leia to an extent. All she was looking at as potential surrogate saviors. Savior? Remember that time she fought off four goons with nothing more than a stick? Remember that time she flew all sorts of crazy stunts on "the piece of garbage", while chased by TIE fighters? Including flying through the superstructure of a crashed Star Destroyer? And this is BEFORE she left Jakku! Luke got his *ss handed to him with ONE Tusken Raider and had to be saved from a barroom brawl by Obi Won before leaving Tatooine! Umm, I seem to recall he told her she was "nothing" AFTER she practiced being Thanos in the Hall of Mirrors... Being Hitler's Granddaughter is not the issue. Tearing down Luke to make her the Hero of Everything IS.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 22:09:14 GMT
Not to mention that Anakin did bring balance to the Force. However temporarily. *** Another thing I've realized in the wake of the movie is that Rey's character arc does actually make a great deal of sense and does, imo, flow naturally from her character arc in the rest of the movie. In The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi her big flaw was a sense of hero worship/ such a desire to find out who her parents were and that they'd come back for her that she was willing to put herself in terrible danger, by living on Jakku, in the hope that someday...maybe...her parents would come back for her. She was constantly looking to someone else to be her savior, to complete her, and to give her life meaning that the only way she could have belonging in the story is if her parents were somehow someone special. Or if she could look to a hero figure for a substitute. Kylo, Han, Luke, even Leia to an extent. All she was looking at as potential surrogate saviors. Savior? Remember that time she fought off four goons with nothing more than a stick? Remember that time she flew all sorts of crazy stunts on "the piece of garbage", while chased by TIE fighters? Including flying through the superstructure of a crashed Star Destroyer? And this is BEFORE she left Jakku! Luke got his *ss handed to him with ONE Tusken Raider and had to be saved from a barroom brawl by Obi Won before leaving Tatooine! Umm, I seem to recall he told her she was "nothing" AFTER she practiced being Thanos in the Hall of Mirrors... Being Hitler's Granddaughter is not the issue. Tearing down Luke to make her the Hero of Everything IS. If I recall correctly they weren't armed...and that 'stick' was a metal staff that she had been using most of her life to fight off even more goons in the past. You might choose to continue to belittle things to make them sound worse, IE 'Luke wanting to kill Ben because of a bad dream' but your hyperbole often does not match reality. You know what constantly amazes me? How lucky Rey was. She flailed her way through flying the Falcon, flailed her way through the first Lightsaber battle against Kylo Ren (until she tapped into the Force) and flailed her way through the fight with Snoke's praetorian guard. She is constantly yelping/ screaming in surprise, frustration, and is just flying by the seat of her pants. The fight with Snoke's guard was especially telling because of how calm and collected Kylo looked, constantly worrying about her well being and yet performing like a unit, his actions were constantly precise and he knew what he was doing. Rey didn't. The only time Rey really has shown competence is when she A. already had an example of what she was doing (Kylo mind probing her) B. When she was tapping into the Force directly or C. at the very end of the saga after she actually got some legitimate training from Leia. *snort* Good comparison. I never felt Luke was torn down, or at least stayed down permenantly. For him to be the badass he was at the end of TLJ he kind of had to start in a dark place. Also Luke's failures made him a much more interesting, relatable character to me.
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 30, 2019 22:11:37 GMT
Whatever happened to the Force users that followed Ren after the nasty split with Luke? The Knights of Ren would not be them because they never showed any Force abilities. Basically all they showed was looking tough and getting their asses handed to them by Kylo.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 22:14:58 GMT
Whatever happened to the Force users that followed Ren after the nasty split with Luke? The Knights of Ren would not be them because they never showed any Force abilities. Basically all they showed was looking tough and getting their asses handed to them by Kylo. Its implied those were the Knights of Ren. As far as their overall patheticness is concerned...well just because someone has some talent in the Force does not mean someone is automatically going to be a unit. Look at what Palpetine did to MOST OF THE JEDI HIGH COUNCIL in Revenge of the Sith. I suppose the bigger question should be,why didn't they all have lightsabers?
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 22:16:02 GMT
He failed to defeat the Emperor. He failed to reestablish the Jedi (Yoda's dying instructions) He failed his nephew He sat on his *ss drinking green milk while the First Order tore through the New Republic and the Resistance. He failed Han and Leia. Not just with Ben, but by abandoning them when the galaxy needed them most. He couldn't even be bothered to teach Rey the basics of the Force or being a Jedi. He redeemed Anakin, which is not nothing, I guess. But even Anakin's sacrifice is largely wasted. And given his future actions, even this redemption rings hollow with Luke. He did defeat the Emperor and caused the Empire to scatter. He failed to 'pass on what he had learned, strength, mastery, but also failure.' Yep. For a while sure...until he got a pep talk got off his arse and kicked some serious butt. He taught her quite a good deal both by his actions and his actual teachings. Rey *needed* to hear those lessons and hell so did Luke, just that Luke...initially...drew the wrong conclusions. I think the big problem is the idea that failure is some absolute: Once you have failed that is a permenant mark on your record that can't be undone. But what is important about failure is how you react to it what you do...and yes Luke didn't take his failures too well at first, fearing that his Failure doomed him for eternity, but really...it did not. And once he realized that he became a badass again. Then he passed sort of the same lesson onto Rey when she was doubting herself. The Empire scattering proved to be utterly irrelevant because The First Order: Now with 50% More Space Hitler almost immediately popped up. Then there was The Final Order: Imperial Boogaloo. Seriously, they might as well have just kept the Galactic Empire as an enemy. Would have been more honest. And yeah, he failed to pass on what he had learned. There were no Jedi, no Jedi Academy/Temple/Praxium. Just an old man waiting to die. Luke kicked NO butt. He sat on his own until the absolute last moment, then put on a light show and stroked out while Rey (the REAL Hero of Everything who needs no training) lifted a mountain to save the last dozen or so Resistance folk form the army Luke FAILED to anything about as thousands died. He taught two things: Jack and Sh*t. He taught her that character development doesn't matter. He taught her that everything you accomplish can turn to sh*t because a Disney director feels the need to "subvert expectations" He taught her that Disney places a higher value on their own original characters than legacy ones they still gotta pay George Lucas to use. And your final point: False. Vader has an awesome arc, from hero to fallen hero to ultimate redemption. But it's an arc that actually MADE SENSE (even if portrayed unevenly at times) Then there's Han Solo with his own checkered past. And numerous other characters, original and EU. Then there's Luke/Jake Skywalker. Luke failed plenty in the original trilogy. Heck ESB was one failure of his after another. With his confrontation with Vader at the end being his ultimate failure. Heck I still remember years ago showing the movie to one of my nephews who was maybe five at the time. He observed 'He went there to save his friends, but they needed to save him" But despite all these failures, he kept bouncing back and trying again. Luke doesn't give up. Even when it makes sense to, even when other people tell him he should. He's idealistic and reckless. Yoda pointed that out as he charged off to face Vader: "Told you I did. Reckless is he. Now matters are worse." Luke losing Ben to the Dark Side is not the issue. Luke trying to murder him in his sleep, then moping about it on a beach for YEARS while the galaxy goes up in flames, and his sister and brother-in-law/best friend's lives go down the sh*tter IS. This is not how Luke acts. Luke would have charged off across the galaxy looking for a way to redeem Kylo, stop Snoke, foiled the First Order, etc. He would NOT have abandoned Han and Leia, he would (and indeed HAS) give his right arm for them.
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 30, 2019 22:16:40 GMT
Savior? Remember that time she fought off four goons with nothing more than a stick? Remember that time she flew all sorts of crazy stunts on "the piece of garbage", while chased by TIE fighters? Including flying through the superstructure of a crashed Star Destroyer? And this is BEFORE she left Jakku! Luke got his *ss handed to him with ONE Tusken Raider and had to be saved from a barroom brawl by Obi Won before leaving Tatooine! Umm, I seem to recall he told her she was "nothing" AFTER she practiced being Thanos in the Hall of Mirrors... Being Hitler's Granddaughter is not the issue. Tearing down Luke to make her the Hero of Everything IS. If I recall correctly she wasn't armed...and that 'stick' was a metal staff that she had been using most of her life to fight off even more goons in the past. You might choose to continue to belittle things to make them sound worse, IE 'Luke wanting to kill Ben because of a bad dream' but your hyperbole often does not match reality. You know what constantly amazes me? How lucky Rey was. She flailed her way through flying the Falcon, flailed her way through the first Lightsaber battle against Kylo Ren (until she tapped into the Force) and flailed her way through the fight with Snoke's praetorian guard. She is constantly yelping/ screaming in surprise, frustration, and is just flying by the seat of her pants. The fight with Snoke's guard was especially telling because of how calm and collected Kylo looked, constantly worrying about her well being and yet performing like a unit, his actions were constantly precise and he knew what he was doing. Rey didn't. The only time Rey really has shown competence is when she A. already had an example of what she was doing (Kylo mind probing her) B. When she was tapping into the Force directly or C. at the very end of the saga after she actually got some legitimate training from Leia. *snort* Good comparison. I never felt Luke was torn down, or at least stayed down permenantly. For him to be the badass he was at the end of TLJ he kind of had to start in a dark place. Also Luke's failures made him a much more interesting, relatable character to me. Yeah that fight with Snoke's red guard. That was one of those times she really showed her anger issues in fighting. I thought she was going to go dark side after that. Her anger filled fighting would have made Vader proud.
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 30, 2019 22:19:05 GMT
Luke defeated the Empire, and the First Order still managed to rise up with the resources to have Star Destroyers, Command ships, and Dreadnaughts, INDEPENDENT of Palpatine building a completely separate and massive fleet. Given the persistence and resources of the dark side, can any hero on the light side legitimately be said to have accomplished anything of note? 🤣 Luke still helped grant the entire galaxy about thirty years of peace after decades of various wars. That’s certainly something of note. Was it peace tho? I mean, apparently First Order was out there attacking planets and conscripting (A LOT of) kids into its ranks. Anyway, I was just making a joke about how ridiculously overpowered the recent movies keep making the followers of the dark side. One wonders if it would have been better if this trilogy had ended instead in some sort of mutual Republic/Empire standoff like TOR. Certainly the Imperials/Dark Side followers appear to have adherents who support their beliefs.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 22:24:32 GMT
Savior? Remember that time she fought off four goons with nothing more than a stick? Remember that time she flew all sorts of crazy stunts on "the piece of garbage", while chased by TIE fighters? Including flying through the superstructure of a crashed Star Destroyer? And this is BEFORE she left Jakku! Luke got his *ss handed to him with ONE Tusken Raider and had to be saved from a barroom brawl by Obi Won before leaving Tatooine! Umm, I seem to recall he told her she was "nothing" AFTER she practiced being Thanos in the Hall of Mirrors... Being Hitler's Granddaughter is not the issue. Tearing down Luke to make her the Hero of Everything IS. If I recall correctly they weren't armed...and that 'stick' was a metal staff that she had been using most of her life to fight off even more goons in the past. You might choose to continue to belittle things to make them sound worse, IE 'Luke wanting to kill Ben because of a bad dream' but your hyperbole often does not match reality. You know what constantly amazes me? How lucky Rey was. She flailed her way through flying the Falcon, flailed her way through the first Lightsaber battle against Kylo Ren (until she tapped into the Force) and flailed her way through the fight with Snoke's praetorian guard. She is constantly yelping/ screaming in surprise, frustration, and is just flying by the seat of her pants. The fight with Snoke's guard was especially telling because of how calm and collected Kylo looked, constantly worrying about her well being and yet performing like a unit, his actions were constantly precise and he knew what he was doing. Rey didn't. The only time Rey really has shown competence is when she A. already had an example of what she was doing (Kylo mind probing her) B. When she was tapping into the Force directly or C. at the very end of the saga after she actually got some legitimate training from Leia. *snort* Good comparison. I never felt Luke was torn down, or at least stayed down permenantly. For him to be the badass he was at the end of TLJ he kind of had to start in a dark place. Also Luke's failures made him a much more interesting, relatable character to me. Point being, it wasn't a blaster, lightsaber, vibroblade, etc. It was just a blunt instrument. And there were four goons, all of whom were larger than her (I admit I don't recall if any were armed) And she was kicking their butts unassisted. It wasn't even close. Compared to Luke, who was constantly getting his butt kicked when he wasn't running away for pretty much everything up until the Sarlaac pit. Like I said, Rey needs no training. The universe rearranges itself around her. Luke WAS torn down. badly. He didn't have to be a badass in the film. At least, not more so than Yoda was in the original trilogy (where he wasn't leaping around like a frog on meth in a lightsaber duel). What he did need to be was consistent. Luke had flaws. But the ones shown here were not the ones he displayed in the OT. Heck they were THE EXACT OPPOSITE of the flaws he should have had. Thus why he is not Luke, but Jake
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 30, 2019 22:28:28 GMT
Luke still helped grant the entire galaxy about thirty years of peace after decades of various wars. That’s certainly something of note. Was it peace tho? I mean, apparently First Order was out there attacking planets and conscripting (A LOT of) kids into its ranks. Anyway, I was just making a joke about how ridiculously overpowered the recent movies keep making the followers of the dark side. One wonders if it would have been better if this trilogy had ended instead in some sort of mutual Republic/Empire standoff like TOR. Certainly the Imperials/Dark Side followers appear to have adherents who support their beliefs. The Emperor loves Force Lightning and the planet they were on was filled with static electricity, so why not siphon off that and use it to your advantage. When I saw that scene for the first time, I was like, c'mon, using Force Lightning to attack 1000s of ships in the atmosphere. But the atmosphere was filled with static electricity, so...
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 22:34:41 GMT
If I recall correctly they weren't armed...and that 'stick' was a metal staff that she had been using most of her life to fight off even more goons in the past. You might choose to continue to belittle things to make them sound worse, IE 'Luke wanting to kill Ben because of a bad dream' but your hyperbole often does not match reality. You know what constantly amazes me? How lucky Rey was. She flailed her way through flying the Falcon, flailed her way through the first Lightsaber battle against Kylo Ren (until she tapped into the Force) and flailed her way through the fight with Snoke's praetorian guard. She is constantly yelping/ screaming in surprise, frustration, and is just flying by the seat of her pants. The fight with Snoke's guard was especially telling because of how calm and collected Kylo looked, constantly worrying about her well being and yet performing like a unit, his actions were constantly precise and he knew what he was doing. Rey didn't. The only time Rey really has shown competence is when she A. already had an example of what she was doing (Kylo mind probing her) B. When she was tapping into the Force directly or C. at the very end of the saga after she actually got some legitimate training from Leia. *snort* Good comparison. I never felt Luke was torn down, or at least stayed down permenantly. For him to be the badass he was at the end of TLJ he kind of had to start in a dark place. Also Luke's failures made him a much more interesting, relatable character to me. Point being, it wasn't a blaster, lightsaber, vibroblade, etc. It was just a blunt instrument. And there were four goons, all of whom were larger than her (I admit I don't recall if any were armed) And she was kicking their butts unassisted. It wasn't even close. Compared to Luke, who was constantly getting his butt kicked when he wasn't running away for pretty much everything up until the Sarlaac pit. Like I said, Rey needs no training. The universe rearranges itself around her. Luke WAS torn down. badly. He didn't have to be a badass in the film. At least, not more so than Yoda was in the original trilogy (where he wasn't leaping around like a frog on meth in a lightsaber duel). What he did need to be was consistent. Luke had flaws. But the ones shown here were not the ones he displayed in the OT. Heck they were THE EXACT OPPOSITE of the flaws he should have had. Thus why he is not Luke, but Jake Well this is a universe with 'the Force' in it. And the Force has been shown repeteadly to grant luck to unskilled people countless times in the past who should be dead. So 'the universe' constantly seems to rearange itself around the heroes on a fairly regularly basis...and the villains.
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 30, 2019 23:00:47 GMT
Was it peace tho? I mean, apparently First Order was out there attacking planets and conscripting (A LOT of) kids into its ranks. Anyway, I was just making a joke about how ridiculously overpowered the recent movies keep making the followers of the dark side. One wonders if it would have been better if this trilogy had ended instead in some sort of mutual Republic/Empire standoff like TOR. Certainly the Imperials/Dark Side followers appear to have adherents who support their beliefs. The Emperor loves Force Lightning and the planet they were on was filled with static electricity, so why not siphon off that and use it to your advantage. When I saw that scene for the first time, I was like, c'mon, using Force Lightning to attack 1000s of ships in the atmosphere. But the atmosphere was filled with static electricity, so... ****! That actually makes a lot of sense!
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 23:08:44 GMT
The Emperor loves Force Lightning and the planet they were on was filled with static electricity, so why not siphon off that and use it to your advantage. When I saw that scene for the first time, I was like, c'mon, using Force Lightning to attack 1000s of ships in the atmosphere. But the atmosphere was filled with static electricity, so... ****! That actually makes a lot of sense! I think it was in one of the videos I posted about the theory of why the force seems so much stronger now on an individual level is because there are so few practitioners left. This theory is an explanation on why the Sith kept to the Rule of Two and is supported by the whole spirit of the Sith/ Jedi thing we got at the end of Rise of Skywalker.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 30, 2019 23:36:09 GMT
Point being, it wasn't a blaster, lightsaber, vibroblade, etc. It was just a blunt instrument. And there were four goons, all of whom were larger than her (I admit I don't recall if any were armed) And she was kicking their butts unassisted. It wasn't even close. Compared to Luke, who was constantly getting his butt kicked when he wasn't running away for pretty much everything up until the Sarlaac pit. Like I said, Rey needs no training. The universe rearranges itself around her. Luke WAS torn down. badly. He didn't have to be a badass in the film. At least, not more so than Yoda was in the original trilogy (where he wasn't leaping around like a frog on meth in a lightsaber duel). What he did need to be was consistent. Luke had flaws. But the ones shown here were not the ones he displayed in the OT. Heck they were THE EXACT OPPOSITE of the flaws he should have had. Thus why he is not Luke, but Jake Well this is a universe with 'the Force' in it. And the Force has been shown repeteadly to grant luck to unskilled people countless times in the past who should be dead. So 'the universe' constantly seems to rearange itself around the heroes on a fairly regularly basis...and the villains. Not...typically so blatantly though. I mean for all Luke's "luck" he still almost got eaten by the local wildlife on Hoth.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2019 23:42:40 GMT
Well this is a universe with 'the Force' in it. And the Force has been shown repeteadly to grant luck to unskilled people countless times in the past who should be dead. So 'the universe' constantly seems to rearange itself around the heroes on a fairly regularly basis...and the villains. Not...typically so blatantly though. I mean for all Luke's "luck" he still almost got eaten by the local wildlife on Hoth. Probably the most blatant example of this would be Chirrut in Rogue One. Yes, and Rey alost got possessed by the spirit of her grandad and almost lost to a mortally wounded man.
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 30, 2019 23:52:22 GMT
Rey kept both her hands in the middle episode TLJ - that was the first clue...
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 0:45:50 GMT
Whatever happened to the Force users that followed Ren after the nasty split with Luke? The Knights of Ren would not be them because they never showed any Force abilities. Basically all they showed was looking tough and getting their asses handed to them by Kylo. That was them. I could have sworn one used the force on Kylo when they were attacking him at first. Either way, they were huge letdown. I don't even see why they added them to the movie given what they actually did with them.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 0:59:08 GMT
You really believe that Luke has accomplished nothing of note? Because of Disney? He failed to defeat the Emperor. He failed to reestablish the Jedi (Yoda's dying instructions) He failed his nephew He sat on his *ss drinking green milk while the First Order tore through the New Republic and the Resistance. He failed Han and Leia. Not just with Ben, but by abandoning them when the galaxy needed them most. He couldn't even be bothered to teach Rey the basics of the Force or being a Jedi.He redeemed Anakin, which is not nothing, I guess. But even Anakin's sacrifice is largely wasted. And given his future actions, even this redemption rings hollow with Luke. This is one of the things that the middle movie really messed up. Still can't believe that they obviously didn't even have a vague plan of what they wanted to do over the three movies. Imagine if Rey had went into the part of the island where the dark side was strong and had a moment like she did on the death star wreckage, and started doubting herself. Then imagine if Luke had the conversation with her in TLJ that he had with her in TROS. Far more character development and character arc fro Rey than what she actually received by the end of the movie. Instead, she goes into the cave, asks about her parents, darkside deep in her blood according to JJ, and nothing. She gets no answer and she leaves without incident. Then she proceeds, with no real training from Luke to rescue the resistance by lifting a pile of boulders. Barely been using the force for a week and she does this. This would have been the equivalent of Luke pulling his X-wing out the water on the first try, and he had been training much longer. It's one of the reasons why people call her a Mary Sue. Had they actually planned this out, and planned for Palpatine to return from the start, or built Snoke into something they could have really made this good. But the guy that helped JJ write the script said that they wanted to redeem Kylo, and needed an evil larger than him. But they didn't have it anymore because Snoke was dead, so they brought the Emperor back.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 31, 2019 1:29:31 GMT
He failed to defeat the Emperor. He failed to reestablish the Jedi (Yoda's dying instructions) He failed his nephew He sat on his *ss drinking green milk while the First Order tore through the New Republic and the Resistance. He failed Han and Leia. Not just with Ben, but by abandoning them when the galaxy needed them most. He couldn't even be bothered to teach Rey the basics of the Force or being a Jedi.He redeemed Anakin, which is not nothing, I guess. But even Anakin's sacrifice is largely wasted. And given his future actions, even this redemption rings hollow with Luke. This is one of the things that the middle movie really messed up. Still can't believe that they obviously didn't even have a vague plan of what they wanted to do over the three movies. Imagine if Rey had went into the part of the island where the dark side was strong and had a moment like she did on the death star wreckage, and started doubting herself. Then imagine if Luke had the conversation with her in TLJ that he had with her in TROS. Far more character development and character arc fro Rey than what she actually received by the end of the movie. Instead, she goes into the cave, asks about her parents, darkside deep in her blood according to JJ, and nothing. She gets no answer and she leaves without incident. Then she proceeds, with no real training from Luke to rescue the resistance by lifting a pile of boulders. Barely been using the force for a week and she does this. This would have been the equivalent of Luke pulling his X-wing out the water on the first try, and he had been training much longer. It's one of the reasons why people call her a Mary Sue. Had they actually planned this out, and planned for Palpatine to return from the start, or built Snoke into something they could have really made this good. But the guy that helped JJ write the script said that they wanted to redeem Kylo, and needed an evil larger than him. But they didn't have it anymore because Snoke was dead, so they brought the Emperor back. Except Rey knew the Jedi could make boulders float...a line she repeated to herself before she did it.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 1:56:15 GMT
This is one of the things that the middle movie really messed up. Still can't believe that they obviously didn't even have a vague plan of what they wanted to do over the three movies. Imagine if Rey had went into the part of the island where the dark side was strong and had a moment like she did on the death star wreckage, and started doubting herself. Then imagine if Luke had the conversation with her in TLJ that he had with her in TROS. Far more character development and character arc fro Rey than what she actually received by the end of the movie. Instead, she goes into the cave, asks about her parents, darkside deep in her blood according to JJ, and nothing. She gets no answer and she leaves without incident. Then she proceeds, with no real training from Luke to rescue the resistance by lifting a pile of boulders. Barely been using the force for a week and she does this. This would have been the equivalent of Luke pulling his X-wing out the water on the first try, and he had been training much longer. It's one of the reasons why people call her a Mary Sue. Had they actually planned this out, and planned for Palpatine to return from the start, or built Snoke into something they could have really made this good. But the guy that helped JJ write the script said that they wanted to redeem Kylo, and needed an evil larger than him. But they didn't have it anymore because Snoke was dead, so they brought the Emperor back. Except Rey knew the Jedi could make boulders float...a line she repeated to herself before she did it. What does that have to do with anything? So training is not necessary if you know what the force can do? If I say to myself it will be type of thing. It's the failing that made Luke and Anakin more believable characters. Yoda telling Luke that there is no difference between rocks and the X-Wing, or that size doesn't matter. Or the famous line, that is why you fail. The encounter in the cave. Getting his hand cut off by Vader. He came back stronger each movie, and there were year's of time skip between each one. Anakin killing all of the sand people, telling Padme that he's a Jedi and he knows he's better than that. Getting beat and losing an arm to Dooku. Then coming back in Revenge of the Sith and telling Dooku that he powers have doubled since the last time they met, and proceeding to kill him, murdering a prisoner and falling more to the dark side. Rey didn't get any kind of growth like this because she was basically perfect the first two films. If she would have been in the OT she would have taken up Obi-Wan's lightsaber after his death and beat the crap out Vader having never touched a lightsaber before. She would have gone through the cave on Dagobah without incident. She would have pulled the X-Wing out of the water on the first try, never touched a hair on a sandperson's head, taken Dooku alive, never been arrogant, etc, etc. Which would have made for much lesser movies. Just in TROS alone she lost control and thought she killed Chewie, lost a fight to Kylo, and saw the darkside in herself. She got the talk from Luke that she should have gotten in the Last Jedi. I will give them credit for at least trying in the last movie, but it was too late in the game at that point.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 31, 2019 2:26:23 GMT
Except Rey knew the Jedi could make boulders float...a line she repeated to herself before she did it. What does that have to do with anything? So training is not necessary if you know what the force can do? If I say to myself it will be type of thing. It's the failing that made Luke and Anakin more believable characters. Yoda telling Luke that there is no difference between rocks and the X-Wing, or that size doesn't matter. Or the famous line, that is why you fail. The encounter in the cave. Getting his hand cut off by Vader. He came back stronger each movie, and there were year's of time skip between each one. Anakin killing all of the sand people, telling Padme that he's a Jedi and he knows he's better than that. Getting beat and losing an arm to Dooku. Then coming back in Revenge of the Sith and telling Dooku that he powers have doubled since the last time they met, and proceeding to kill him, murdering a prisoner and falling more to the dark side. Rey didn't get any kind of growth like this because she was basically perfect the first two films. If she would have been in the OT she would have taken up Obi-Wan's lightsaber after his death and beat the crap out Vader having never touched a lightsaber before. She would have gone through the cave on Dagobah without incident. She would have pulled the X-Wing out of the water on the first try, never touched a hair on a sandperson's head, taken Dooku alive, never been arrogant, etc, etc. Which would have made for much lesser movies. Just in TROS alone she lost control and thought she killed Chewie, lost a fight to Kylo, and saw the darkside in herself. She got the talk from Luke that she should have gotten in the Last Jedi. I will give them credit for at least trying in the last movie, but it was too late in the game at that point. exactly. The only thing I'll agree with is pulling the X-Wing out without incident. The rest she would've had trouble with. I find the idea of her being able to beat Vader in Episode 4 without training to be especially amusing considering Luke held her off in Episode 8 with nothing more then a tree branch. Actually I'll even give you her not being arrogant either. But the point is all you are talking about is physical abilities, not her mental state or her growth as a person...going from a deeply flawed individual to a more complete person. I mean I've decided all this arguing over definitions is pointless. She's a Mary Sue, fine. But she is also a deeply flawed, yet sympathetic character. She is interesting, well written and portrayed wonderfully by Daisy Ridley.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2019 2:30:35 GMT
This is one of the things that the middle movie really messed up. Still can't believe that they obviously didn't even have a vague plan of what they wanted to do over the three movies. Imagine if Rey had went into the part of the island where the dark side was strong and had a moment like she did on the death star wreckage, and started doubting herself. Then imagine if Luke had the conversation with her in TLJ that he had with her in TROS. Far more character development and character arc fro Rey than what she actually received by the end of the movie. Instead, she goes into the cave, asks about her parents, darkside deep in her blood according to JJ, and nothing. She gets no answer and she leaves without incident. Then she proceeds, with no real training from Luke to rescue the resistance by lifting a pile of boulders. Barely been using the force for a week and she does this. This would have been the equivalent of Luke pulling his X-wing out the water on the first try, and he had been training much longer. It's one of the reasons why people call her a Mary Sue. Had they actually planned this out, and planned for Palpatine to return from the start, or built Snoke into something they could have really made this good. But the guy that helped JJ write the script said that they wanted to redeem Kylo, and needed an evil larger than him. But they didn't have it anymore because Snoke was dead, so they brought the Emperor back. Except Rey knew the Jedi could make boulders float...a line she repeated to herself before she did it. Luke knew that too. And in ESB,m despite having years more experience than Rey in The Last Dumpster Fire, he could barely move his lightsaber. At Rey's stage of "training" he was still getting zapped by a training droid wheras she's carving Imperial Guard into steaks!
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 2:49:44 GMT
What does that have to do with anything? So training is not necessary if you know what the force can do? If I say to myself it will be type of thing. It's the failing that made Luke and Anakin more believable characters. Yoda telling Luke that there is no difference between rocks and the X-Wing, or that size doesn't matter. Or the famous line, that is why you fail. The encounter in the cave. Getting his hand cut off by Vader. He came back stronger each movie, and there were year's of time skip between each one. Anakin killing all of the sand people, telling Padme that he's a Jedi and he knows he's better than that. Getting beat and losing an arm to Dooku. Then coming back in Revenge of the Sith and telling Dooku that he powers have doubled since the last time they met, and proceeding to kill him, murdering a prisoner and falling more to the dark side. Rey didn't get any kind of growth like this because she was basically perfect the first two films. If she would have been in the OT she would have taken up Obi-Wan's lightsaber after his death and beat the crap out Vader having never touched a lightsaber before. She would have gone through the cave on Dagobah without incident. She would have pulled the X-Wing out of the water on the first try, never touched a hair on a sandperson's head, taken Dooku alive, never been arrogant, etc, etc. Which would have made for much lesser movies. Just in TROS alone she lost control and thought she killed Chewie, lost a fight to Kylo, and saw the darkside in herself. She got the talk from Luke that she should have gotten in the Last Jedi. I will give them credit for at least trying in the last movie, but it was too late in the game at that point. exactly. The only thing I'll agree with is pulling the X-Wing out without incident. The rest she would've had trouble with. I find the idea of her being able to beat Vader in Episode 4 without training to be especially amusing considering Luke held her off in Episode 8 with nothing more then a tree branch. Actually I'll even give you her not being arrogant either. But the point is all you are talking about is physical abilities, not her mental state or her growth as a person...going from a deeply flawed individual to a more complete person. I mean I've decided all this arguing over definitions is pointless. She's a Mary Sue, fine. But she is also a deeply flawed, yet sympathetic character. She is interesting, well written and portrayed wonderfully by Daisy Ridley. She beat up Kylo in the first movie having never touched a lightsaber before. This is after she overpowered him for lightsaber to begin with. The same person who stopped a blaster bolt, and held a conversation with it suspended in air to start the movie. She overpowered this person for a lightsaber, and then beat him down with it barely hours after she found out she could use the force. So yeah, it would have been like Luke taking up Obi Wan's lightsaber and beating the crap out of Vader. What flaws did she have in the first two movies? The stick duel ended with Luke on the ground explaining his actions to Rey, and Rey lecturing him about how Kylo wasn't completely gone, and that he could be saved.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 31, 2019 3:16:09 GMT
exactly. The only thing I'll agree with is pulling the X-Wing out without incident. The rest she would've had trouble with. I find the idea of her being able to beat Vader in Episode 4 without training to be especially amusing considering Luke held her off in Episode 8 with nothing more then a tree branch. Actually I'll even give you her not being arrogant either. But the point is all you are talking about is physical abilities, not her mental state or her growth as a person...going from a deeply flawed individual to a more complete person. I mean I've decided all this arguing over definitions is pointless. She's a Mary Sue, fine. But she is also a deeply flawed, yet sympathetic character. She is interesting, well written and portrayed wonderfully by Daisy Ridley. She beat up Kylo in the first movie having never touched a lightsaber before. This is after she overpowered him for lightsaber to begin with. The same person who stopped a blaster bolt, and held a conversation with it suspended in air to start the movie. She overpowered this person for a lightsaber, and then beat him down with it barely hours after she found out she could use the force. So yeah, it would have been like Luke taking up Obi Wan's lightsaber and beating the crap out of Vader. What flaws did she have in the first two movies? The stick duel ended with Luke on the ground explaining his actions to Rey, and Rey lecturing him about how Kylo wasn't completely gone, and that he could be saved. Plenty of examples were given to why Rey won that fight, including in the movie itself. Vader was always MUCH more powerful in the Force and trained then Kylo Ren was, even at his most diminished capacity. Vader would have snapped her like a twig, not to mention all the other Stormtroopers around there. The stick duel ended that way because Rey is much more physically younger then Luke, in her prime so to speak, and kind of curb checked him into the rocks. Fact was though Luke was holding his own against her despite barely using the Force until she grabbed his lightsaber. Had he unleashed his full power there, IE he was REALLY fighting her, he would've snapped her like a twig. I've gone into great detail on her flaws but to be brief: Anger issues, identity issues, looking for a 'savior'/ someone to give her life meaning...to the point she is essentially willing to sell herself into virtual slavery, to the point she is willing to fall into a rather obvious trap, and to the point she also is quite angry and bitter at the world which also causes her issues in Episode IX. Premptive edit: I should actually say that all the above applies to Episode VII-VIII Rey. Episode IX Rey, IE the one who is fully trained and fully 'balanced' might actually be able to put up a much better fight against Anakin/Vader or Luke at the height of their respective powers.
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