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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 17:10:43 GMT
... The force has always been portrayed as being in the mind, and that the mind needed training to be calm in order to commune with it.
Not the same for Sith. They did not view the Force as something to commune with, but rather as a tool to be used and they were not calm afaicr, on the contrary.
Yeah, but she wasn't a Sith, just like Anakin wasn't originally. She never even became one. But for argument's sake, say that was the path from the start, I doubt Darth Maul came out the gate wreaking everything with the force.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2019 17:18:40 GMT
Luke only knew Rey in TLJ for maybe 2 days. He probably didn't know of her lineage until he became one with the Force, if not much much later. When exactly would this have happened, and how? Luke said he knew and Leia did as well. Between Leia leading the resistance and training Rey, and Luke being a force ghost, when would they have unraveled this?
It's more logical that Luke would have discovered this ten years earlier when he and Lando were looking looking for Exogul. They were on the trail of a Jedi hunter with ties to Exogul. Obvious questions would have been, who is this Jedi? Why do they want them? Why do they need to bring them to Exogul? What or who is on Exogul requesting this? Unraveling it all during this time would have made much more sense.
But, as I think about this. When would Luke and Lando have even done this? If Luke closed his school and went into exile feeling that he failed, no longer caring about Jedi affairs. When did he all of a sudden decide that he does care about Jedi/Sith affairs and go looking into all of this? Then after the trail goes cold, knowing that there are things in the works on a sith planet he just leaves the galaxy to it's fate. He and Lando tell no one anything at all about what they found out.
Like I said in another post. The more I think about this film, the more the story makes no sense whatsoever. Trying to add the Palpatine story after the fact not only makes the story of this movie chuck full or plot holes. It retroactively does the same thing to the previous two.
See, if The Last Dumpster Fire had told us that Luke had spent the years since Ben's fall searching for information like this, the Emperor's return, his plans for the galaxy, How Rey and Kylo fit into things, how to prepare Rey for the trials she will have to face, THAT would have been a halfway decent sendoff for such a character. Not moping on a beach drinking unpasteurized milk from an alien manatee...
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 31, 2019 17:37:21 GMT
Kathleen Kennedy has got to go, and Bob Iger must be smoking that good shit if Rian Johnson is still tasked to direct a trilogy, but here's some more Kino Wars...
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Post by docsteely on Dec 31, 2019 18:12:47 GMT
Not the same for Sith. They did not view the Force as something to commune with, but rather as a tool to be used and they were not calm afaicr, on the contrary.
Yeah, but she wasn't a Sith, just like Anakin wasn't originally. She never even became one. But for argument's sake, say that was the path from the start, I doubt Darth Maul came out the gate wreaking everything with the force.
I agree that both sides need training to achieve results, but your affirmation was: "The force has always been portrayed as being in the mind, and that the mind needed training to be calm in order to commune with it." Start it with "For the Jedi," and I have no problem with it.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 31, 2019 18:33:06 GMT
Plenty of examples were given to why Rey won that fight, including in the movie itself. Vader was always MUCH more powerful in the Force and trained then Kylo Ren was, even at his most diminished capacity. Vader would have snapped her like a twig, not to mention all the other Stormtroopers around there. The stick duel ended that way because Rey is much more physically younger then Luke, in her prime so to speak, and kind of curb checked him into the rocks. Fact was though Luke was holding his own against her despite barely using the Force until she grabbed his lightsaber. Had he unleashed his full power there, IE he was REALLY fighting her, he would've snapped her like a twig. I've gone into great detail on her flaws but to be brief: Anger issues, identity issues, looking for a 'savior'/ someone to give her life meaning...to the point she is essentially willing to sell herself into virtual slavery, to the point she is willing to fall into a rather obvious trap, and to the point she also is quite angry and bitter at the world which also causes her issues in Episode IX. Premptive edit: I should actually say that all the above applies to Episode VII-VIII Rey. Episode IX Rey, IE the one who is fully trained and fully 'balanced' might actually be able to put up a much better fight against Anakin/Vader or Luke at the height of their respective powers. If physical abilities, or age mattered when using the force, then every person Yoda fought would have curb stomped him. That was the whole idea of what Yoda was telling Luke on Degobah. Don't just me by me size, my ally is the force. Rocks and the X-wing are no different when it comes to the force. You know the kind of lessons Rey never got until I'm going to assume between the last two movies. She just came out of the gate using the force like a champ. When it's this easy to learn the force, you pretty much diminish what you've built up the Jedi and the force to be through the other movies. The whole idea of it being a life long commitment, and having to go from padawan to Jedi Knight to Master. How it's harder to start as a adult, as opposed to a child. When someone becomes that powerful with no training whatsoever in a matter of hours or days it just diminishes what Jedi were built up to be. Especially when through six movies you're shown two of the most powerful Jedi ever taking years to get to where she was. you contradict yourself and your entire argument falls apart. Pay attention to my ENTIRE argument. Luke was barely using the Force during his fight with Rey, had he done so, she would've been screwed. As far as ease of Force use if you assume it is about belief then the Force IS easy to use, if you have the right mindset for it...which is why the Jedi wanted to take people young.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2019 18:52:11 GMT
If physical abilities, or age mattered when using the force, then every person Yoda fought would have curb stomped him. That was the whole idea of what Yoda was telling Luke on Degobah. Don't just me by me size, my ally is the force. Rocks and the X-wing are no different when it comes to the force. You know the kind of lessons Rey never got until I'm going to assume between the last two movies. She just came out of the gate using the force like a champ. When it's this easy to learn the force, you pretty much diminish what you've built up the Jedi and the force to be through the other movies. The whole idea of it being a life long commitment, and having to go from padawan to Jedi Knight to Master. How it's harder to start as a adult, as opposed to a child. When someone becomes that powerful with no training whatsoever in a matter of hours or days it just diminishes what Jedi were built up to be. Especially when through six movies you're shown two of the most powerful Jedi ever taking years to get to where she was. you contradict yourself and your entire argument falls apart. Pay attention to my ENTIRE argument . Luke was barely using the Force during his fight with Rey, had he done so, she would've been screwed. As far as ease of Force use if you assume it is about belief then the Force IS easy to use, if you have the right mindset for it...which is why the Jedi wanted to take people young. How certain are you of that?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 31, 2019 18:54:34 GMT
you contradict yourself and your entire argument falls apart. Pay attention to my ENTIRE argument . Luke was barely using the Force during his fight with Rey, had he done so, she would've been screwed. As far as ease of Force use if you assume it is about belief then the Force IS easy to use, if you have the right mindset for it...which is why the Jedi wanted to take people young. How certain are you of that? about ninety five percent.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 18:57:15 GMT
If physical abilities, or age mattered when using the force, then every person Yoda fought would have curb stomped him. That was the whole idea of what Yoda was telling Luke on Degobah. Don't just me by me size, my ally is the force. Rocks and the X-wing are no different when it comes to the force. You know the kind of lessons Rey never got until I'm going to assume between the last two movies. She just came out of the gate using the force like a champ. When it's this easy to learn the force, you pretty much diminish what you've built up the Jedi and the force to be through the other movies. The whole idea of it being a life long commitment, and having to go from padawan to Jedi Knight to Master. How it's harder to start as a adult, as opposed to a child. When someone becomes that powerful with no training whatsoever in a matter of hours or days it just diminishes what Jedi were built up to be. Especially when through six movies you're shown two of the most powerful Jedi ever taking years to get to where she was. you contradict yourself and your entire argument falls apart. Pay attention to my ENTIRE argument. Luke was barely using the Force during his fight with Rey, had he done so, she would've been screwed. As far as ease of Force use if you assume it is about belief then the Force IS easy to use, if you have the right mindset for it...which is why the Jedi wanted to take people young.
Belief is completely different than training your mind to do something, or gaining knowledge of something.
I believe I said this earlier when you said that Rey said to herself that they were just rocks before she moved the boulders.
What does that have to do with anything? So training is not necessary if you know what the force can do? If I say to myself it will be type of thing.
My point has been pretty consistent that you need training to grow stronger in the force. They wanted kids because like with any other things they're blank slates, untainted by anything and no pre conceived notions. Like when Yoda tells Luke he has to unlearn what he has learned. It's no different than sports. The later you take them up the harder it is to excel in them because it's easier to learn basics and build them up over time.
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Post by docsteely on Dec 31, 2019 18:59:40 GMT
When exactly would this have happened, and how? Luke said he knew and Leia did as well. Between Leia leading the resistance and training Rey, and Luke being a force ghost, when would they have unraveled this?
It's more logical that Luke would have discovered this ten years earlier when he and Lando were looking looking for Exogul. They were on the trail of a Jedi hunter with ties to Exogul. Obvious questions would have been, who is this Jedi? Why do they want them? Why do they need to bring them to Exogul? What or who is on Exogul requesting this? Unraveling it all during this time would have made much more sense.
But, as I think about this. When would Luke and Lando have even done this? If Luke closed his school and went into exile feeling that he failed, no longer caring about Jedi affairs. When did he all of a sudden decide that he does care about Jedi/Sith affairs and go looking into all of this? Then after the trail goes cold, knowing that there are things in the works on a sith planet he just leaves the galaxy to it's fate. He and Lando tell no one anything at all about what they found out.
Like I said in another post. The more I think about this film, the more the story makes no sense whatsoever. Trying to add the Palpatine story after the fact not only makes the story of this movie chuck full or plot holes. It retroactively does the same thing to the previous two.
See, if The Last Dumpster Fire had told us that Luke had spent the years since Ben's fall searching for information like this, the Emperor's return, his plans for the galaxy, How Rey and Kylo fit into things, how to prepare Rey for the trials she will have to face, THAT would have been a halfway decent sendoff for such a character. Not moping on a beach drinking unpasteurized milk from an alien manatee... That would have been character development, which is a trait the Disney Trilogy severely lacks...
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Post by colfoley on Dec 31, 2019 19:29:00 GMT
you contradict yourself and your entire argument falls apart. Pay attention to my ENTIRE argument. Luke was barely using the Force during his fight with Rey, had he done so, she would've been screwed. As far as ease of Force use if you assume it is about belief then the Force IS easy to use, if you have the right mindset for it...which is why the Jedi wanted to take people young.
Belief is completely different than training your mind to do something, or gaining knowledge of something.
I believe I said this earlier when you said that Rey said to herself that they were just rocks before she moved the boulders.
What does that have to do with anything? So training is not necessary if you know what the force can do? If I say to myself it will be type of thing.
My point has been pretty consistent that you need training to grow stronger in the force. They wanted kids because like with any other things they're blank slates, untainted by anything and no pre conceived notions. Like when Yoda tells Luke he has to unlearn what he has learned. It's no different than sports. The later you take them up the harder it is to excel in them because it's easier to learn basics and build them up over time.
it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks. The big problem is that most people just seem to think Reys abilities in the first two movies are somehow super impressive...I do not. Big whoop she lifted some rocks and had trouble mind tricking a stormtrooper. Really impressive stuff.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2019 19:32:15 GMT
See, if The Last Dumpster Fire had told us that Luke had spent the years since Ben's fall searching for information like this, the Emperor's return, his plans for the galaxy, How Rey and Kylo fit into things, how to prepare Rey for the trials she will have to face, THAT would have been a halfway decent sendoff for such a character. Not moping on a beach drinking unpasteurized milk from an alien manatee... That would have been character development, which is a trait the Disney Trilogy severely lacks... Disney is the opposite of character development. It does character regression.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2019 19:39:27 GMT
How certain are you of that? about ninety five percent. Given that immediately prior to the fight Luke blew out a hut wall when he saw Force Projection Kylo and he caught himself from falling when Rey tripped him in the fight, I'm not at all convinced.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2019 19:40:43 GMT
Belief is completely different than training your mind to do something, or gaining knowledge of something.
I believe I said this earlier when you said that Rey said to herself that they were just rocks before she moved the boulders.
What does that have to do with anything? So training is not necessary if you know what the force can do? If I say to myself it will be type of thing.
My point has been pretty consistent that you need training to grow stronger in the force. They wanted kids because like with any other things they're blank slates, untainted by anything and no pre conceived notions. Like when Yoda tells Luke he has to unlearn what he has learned. It's no different than sports. The later you take them up the harder it is to excel in them because it's easier to learn basics and build them up over time.
it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks. The big problem is that most people just seem to think Reys abilities in the first two movies are somehow super impressive...I do not. Big whoop she lifted some rocks and had trouble mind tricking a stormtrooper. Really impressive stuff. Given Luke couldn't do those things after YEARS of practice and at least basic instruction from a Jedi Master (including seeing the mind trick done up close)
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 19:59:52 GMT
Belief is completely different than training your mind to do something, or gaining knowledge of something.
I believe I said this earlier when you said that Rey said to herself that they were just rocks before she moved the boulders.
What does that have to do with anything? So training is not necessary if you know what the force can do? If I say to myself it will be type of thing.
My point has been pretty consistent that you need training to grow stronger in the force. They wanted kids because like with any other things they're blank slates, untainted by anything and no pre conceived notions. Like when Yoda tells Luke he has to unlearn what he has learned. It's no different than sports. The later you take them up the harder it is to excel in them because it's easier to learn basics and build them up over time.
it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks. The big problem is that most people just seem to think Reys abilities in the first two movies are somehow super impressive...I do not. Big whoop she lifted some rocks and had trouble mind tricking a stormtrooper. Really impressive stuff. So basically what you're saying is that a youngling who believes they can lift an X-wing can lift an X-Wing without having to actually undergo any training or study in the ways of the force? If your answer to this is yes there's really no use in continuing this debate.
When Yoda and Dooku are fighting at the end of Attack of the Clones. When Dooku is throwing object after object at Yoda and he's just deflecting them away. Dooku says it's clear that this fight is not going to be decided by our knowledge of the force. Implying that these things are required to do what they were doing. That it's more than just believing that you can do it.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 20:08:08 GMT
it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks. The big problem is that most people just seem to think Reys abilities in the first two movies are somehow super impressive...I do not. Big whoop she lifted some rocks and had trouble mind tricking a stormtrooper. Really impressive stuff. Given Luke couldn't do those things after YEARS of practice and at least basic instruction from a Jedi Master (including seeing the mind trick done up close)
This ignores the question of how Rey even knew you could mind trick people.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2019 20:22:10 GMT
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 31, 2019 20:47:19 GMT
Given Luke couldn't do those things after YEARS of practice and at least basic instruction from a Jedi Master (including seeing the mind trick done up close)
This ignores the question of how Rey even knew you could mind trick people.
It was stated that Rey in TFA is basically is huge fangirl of the original trilogy with Luke - she knows all about the rebellion, Jedis, the Force, Luke redeeming Vader, etc. Rey was basically chanelling the audience's fascination with the movies. That is why she is so excited to meet Han Solo, and eager to find Luke initially.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 20:55:58 GMT
See, if The Last Dumpster Fire had told us that Luke had spent the years since Ben's fall searching for information like this, the Emperor's return, his plans for the galaxy, How Rey and Kylo fit into things, how to prepare Rey for the trials she will have to face, THAT would have been a halfway decent sendoff for such a character. Not moping on a beach drinking unpasteurized milk from an alien manatee... That would have been character development, which is a trait the Disney Trilogy severely lacks... They did do a really terrible job with all the characters, with the exception of Kylo. When I first saw the Rise of Skywalker, I was really hoping that they were talking about him. But alas, those hopes were dashed.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 21:19:41 GMT
Kathleen Kennedy has got to go, and Bob Iger must be smoking that good shit if Rian Johnson is still tasked to direct a trilogy, but here's some more Kino Wars... Kathleen Kennedy should have been fired when she told this boldface lie... “Every one of these movies is a particularly hard nut to crack. There’s no source material. We don’t have comic books. We don’t have 800-page novels. We don’t have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be.”She obviously wasn't a fan of the Star Wars universe to begin with and you can certainly tell. I recall JJ saying he was always more of a fan of Star Trek than Star Wars. Though I couldn't tell by the movies.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 22:46:24 GMT
This ignores the question of how Rey even knew you could mind trick people.
It was stated that Rey in TFA is basically is huge fangirl of the original trilogy with Luke - she knows all about the rebellion, Jedis, the Force, Luke redeeming Vader, etc. Rey was basically chanelling the audience's fascination with the movies. That is why she is so excited to meet Han Solo, and eager to find Luke initially. In the first movie didn't she say she thought Luke was a myth? Or are you saying she was a fan of the idea of Luke Skywalker.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 31, 2019 23:10:05 GMT
It was stated that Rey in TFA is basically is huge fangirl of the original trilogy with Luke - she knows all about the rebellion, Jedis, the Force, Luke redeeming Vader, etc. Rey was basically chanelling the audience's fascination with the movies. That is why she is so excited to meet Han Solo, and eager to find Luke initially. In the first movie didn't she say she thought Luke was a myth? Or are you saying she was a fan of the idea of Luke Skywalker. I don't remember her saying that - she did sort of react in amazement when Han tells her the Jedi were real. But it doesn't matter if she thinks Luke or the Jedi are a myth, the point is she knows all about them.
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 23:25:20 GMT
In the first movie didn't she say she thought Luke was a myth? Or are you saying she was a fan of the idea of Luke Skywalker. I don't remember her saying that - she did sort of react in amazement when Han tells her the Jedi were real. But it doesn't matter if she thinks Luke or the Jedi are a myth, the point is she knows all about them. That's not the impression I got. Finn was the one who knew about Luke and the rebellion. Rey said she thought that Luke was a myth. I remember when they met Han Solo, Finn says that he's a war hero, and Rey says no he's a smuggler, and the one who made the Kessel run. Didn't sound like she knew much about it all. Later on Finn says you are the Han Solo that fought with the rebellion. Which would make sense that he knows since he's First Order. I would have to go watch the movie again. But I don't recall anything from Rey about Luke or Jedi exploits, or even the rebellion.
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 31, 2019 23:42:15 GMT
I don't remember her saying that - she did sort of react in amazement when Han tells her the Jedi were real. But it doesn't matter if she thinks Luke or the Jedi are a myth, the point is she knows all about them. That's not the impression I got. Finn was the one who knew about Luke and the rebellion. Rey said she thought that Luke was a myth. I remember when they met Han Solo, Finn says that he's a war hero, and Rey says no he's a smuggler, and the one who made the Kessel run. Didn't sound like she knew much about it all. Later on Finn says you are the Han Solo that fought with the rebellion. Which would make sense that he knows since he's First Order. I would have to go watch the movie again. But I don't recall anything from Rey about Luke or Jedi exploits, or even the rebellion. When Han catches her, Rey realizes THE Han Solo has her at gunpoint, and she is in THE Millenium Falcon. She and Finn go back and forth a little about what the whole truth is, but she knows all about them...
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Post by cypherj on Dec 31, 2019 23:56:22 GMT
That's not the impression I got. Finn was the one who knew about Luke and the rebellion. Rey said she thought that Luke was a myth. I remember when they met Han Solo, Finn says that he's a war hero, and Rey says no he's a smuggler, and the one who made the Kessel run. Didn't sound like she knew much about it all. Later on Finn says you are the Han Solo that fought with the rebellion. Which would make sense that he knows since he's First Order. I would have to go watch the movie again. But I don't recall anything from Rey about Luke or Jedi exploits, or even the rebellion. When Han catches her, Rey realizes THE Han Solo has her at gunpoint, and she is in THE Millenium Falcon. She and Finn go back and forth a little about what the whole truth is, but she knows all about them... Yeah, the Millenium Falcon that made the Kessel Run. Not the one that fought in the rebellion. This is the part I'm talking about. Finn says the rebellion general and Rey says no, the smuggler. Finn says wasn't he a war hero and she doesn't say anything. Then she says the Jedi were real, as opposed to a myth. That in no way says she had extensive knowledge about them. It's like me finding out one day that King Arthur was real. Doesn't mean I have extensive knowledge on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, and their story, it just means I heard about the legend of them, just like she heard about the myth of Luke and the Jedi. She never says anything about I read about them as child, or someone told me stories about them, or I've always wanted to know more about them. Which makes sense, because who on Jakku would tell her details? Who would even know? Just like it makes sense given her surroundings she would know Han Solo as a smuggler and not a hero of the rebellion. Just like it makes sense that Finn would know him as the opposite.
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 1, 2020 0:19:26 GMT
Why do I have to wait until March to get the novelization of RoS? That is just stupid. Should be released at the same time as the movie. I like the novelizations of the movies, you are given more details, get into the heads of the characters. This book Before the Awakening takes place before The Force Awakens. It tells the tale of Finn, Poe and Rey before the events in TFA. It also explains why Rey has some skills, like mechanical skills and knowing how to fly a ship.
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