Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 1, 2020 0:29:21 GMT
When Han catches her, Rey realizes THE Han Solo has her at gunpoint, and she is in THE Millenium Falcon. She and Finn go back and forth a little about what the whole truth is, but she knows all about them... Yeah, the Millenium Falcon that made the Kessel Run. Not the one that fought in the rebellion. This is the part I'm talking about. Finn says the rebellion general and Rey says no, the smuggler. Finn says wasn't he a war hero and she doesn't say anything. Then she says the Jedi were real, as opposed to a myth. That in no way says she had extensive knowledge about them. It's like me finding out one day that King Arthur was real. Doesn't mean I have extensive knowledge on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, and their story, it just means I heard about the legend of them, just like she heard about the myth of Luke and the Jedi. She never says anything about I read about them as child, or someone told me stories about them, or I've always wanted to know more about them. Which makes sense, because who on Jakku would tell her details? Who would even know? Just like it makes sense given her surroundings she would know Han Solo as a smuggler and not a hero of the rebellion. Just like it makes sense that Finn would know him as the opposite. So what, the legends didn't mention the powers the Jedi had? People had difficulty believing they exist because... why exactly? If she knows about the Jedi it stands to reason she knows what some of their capabilities are. She doesn't have to have "extensive knowledge"; hell, even Watto in TPM knew about their mind tricks on Tatooine - stands to reason that information is still floating around. In that scene she looks to me like a fan who just discovered the crazy stories she loved were real, because 30 years prior the Empire was actually defeated, and Luke, Leia, and Han were probably famous.
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 1, 2020 0:31:44 GMT
Kathleen Kennedy has got to go, and Bob Iger must be smoking that good shit if Rian Johnson is still tasked to direct a trilogy, but here's some more Kino Wars... Kathleen Kennedy should have been fired when she told this boldface lie... “Every one of these movies is a particularly hard nut to crack. There’s no source material. We don’t have comic books. We don’t have 800-page novels. We don’t have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be.”She obviously wasn't a fan of the Star Wars universe to begin with and you can certainly tell. I recall JJ saying he was always more of a fan of Star Trek than Star Wars. Though I couldn't tell by the movies. Sounds like the perfect person in that position. EU books and comics be damned.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 1, 2020 0:48:43 GMT
Belief is completely different than training your mind to do something, or gaining knowledge of something.
I believe I said this earlier when you said that Rey said to herself that they were just rocks before she moved the boulders.
What does that have to do with anything? So training is not necessary if you know what the force can do? If I say to myself it will be type of thing.
it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks.
With almost no training whatsoever? C'mon man...
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Post by cypherj on Jan 1, 2020 0:50:57 GMT
Yeah, the Millenium Falcon that made the Kessel Run. Not the one that fought in the rebellion. This is the part I'm talking about. Finn says the rebellion general and Rey says no, the smuggler. Finn says wasn't he a war hero and she doesn't say anything. Then she says the Jedi were real, as opposed to a myth. That in no way says she had extensive knowledge about them. It's like me finding out one day that King Arthur was real. Doesn't mean I have extensive knowledge on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, and their story, it just means I heard about the legend of them, just like she heard about the myth of Luke and the Jedi. She never says anything about I read about them as child, or someone told me stories about them, or I've always wanted to know more about them. Which makes sense, because who on Jakku would tell her details? Who would even know? Just like it makes sense given her surroundings she would know Han Solo as a smuggler and not a hero of the rebellion. Just like it makes sense that Finn would know him as the opposite. So what, the legends didn't mention the powers the Jedi had? People had difficulty believing they exist because... why exactly? If she knows about the Jedi it stands to reason she knows what some of their capabilities are. She doesn't have to have "extensive knowledge"; hell, even Watto in TPM knew about their mind tricks on Tatooine - stands to reason that information is still floating around.
In that scene she looks to me like a fan who just discovered the crazy stories she loved were real, because 30 years prior the Empire was actually defeated, and Luke, Leia, and Han were probably famous. You're comparing a time when Jedi were at their height, and had a presence across the entire galaxy to a time when they're for all intents and purposes extinct. Like I said, nothing in that movie led me to believe that she was a "fangirl" and knew all things Jedi and the rebellion. Fangirl would imply that she consumed all things associated with Jedi and the rebellion. She didn't remember or even know Han Solo was a general in the rebellion, he's just a smuggler to her. Doesn't scream fangirl of the rebellion and Jedi to me.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 1, 2020 1:24:25 GMT
it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks. The big problem is that most people just seem to think Reys abilities in the first two movies are somehow super impressive...I do not. Big whoop she lifted some rocks and had trouble mind tricking a stormtrooper. Really impressive stuff. Given Luke couldn't do those things after YEARS of practice and at least basic instruction from a Jedi Master (including seeing the mind trick done up close) it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks. The big problem is that most people just seem to think Reys abilities in the first two movies are somehow super impressive...I do not. Big whoop she lifted some rocks and had trouble mind tricking a stormtrooper. Really impressive stuff. So basically what you're saying is that a youngling who believes they can lift an X-wing can lift an X-Wing without having to actually undergo any training or study in the ways of the force? If your answer to this is yes there's really no use in continuing this debate.
When Yoda and Dooku are fighting at the end of Attack of the Clones. When Dooku is throwing object after object at Yoda and he's just deflecting them away. Dooku says it's clear that this fight is not going to be decided by our knowledge of the force. Implying that these things are required to do what they were doing. That it's more than just believing that you can do it.
it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks. The big problem is that most people just seem to think Reys abilities in the first two movies are somehow super impressive...I do not. Big whoop she lifted some rocks and had trouble mind tricking a stormtrooper. Really impressive stuff. Given Luke couldn't do those things after YEARS of practice and at least basic instruction from a Jedi Master (including seeing the mind trick done up close) Huh?? Is this an EU thing? Because after years of practice, IE by the time we got to Return of the Jedi, Luke was able to mind trick beings and use telekenesis without breaking a Force Sweat. it has everything to do with anything. The Force is all about mental state of mind, not physical prowess. If you believe you can lift the rocks, you'll be able to lift the rocks. The big problem is that most people just seem to think Reys abilities in the first two movies are somehow super impressive...I do not. Big whoop she lifted some rocks and had trouble mind tricking a stormtrooper. Really impressive stuff. So basically what you're saying is that a youngling who believes they can lift an X-wing can lift an X-Wing without having to actually undergo any training or study in the ways of the force? If your answer to this is yes there's really no use in continuing this debate.
When Yoda and Dooku are fighting at the end of Attack of the Clones. When Dooku is throwing object after object at Yoda and he's just deflecting them away. Dooku says it's clear that this fight is not going to be decided by our knowledge of the force. Implying that these things are required to do what they were doing. That it's more than just believing that you can do it.
That is more or less how I have always seen the Force, yes. Maybe it will be helpful if we back up for a second. The movies have always established you need three basic things to use the Force. 1. Belief that you can do the thing you are about to do. 2. Mental Control (discpline) 3. Raw natural Force Talent (as expressed and quantified by your midichlorian count) Rey obviously has 1 down pat and I am willing to give her 3 from the revelations in Rise along with her lineage. This only leads to mental discpline as the real sticking point and it is likely, because of her upbringing, she had a fair deal of that as well. Because she would've had to be practically minded and focused on whatever she was doing to survive on Jakku. As for Jedi training and why it took it so young...I've always thought that had more to do with indoctrination...making sure they had the mindset that the Jedi found righteous...then any actual ability to use the Force. Keep them nice and undercontrol, one way or another.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 1, 2020 1:24:47 GMT
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 1, 2020 1:41:26 GMT
That's the problem with the Star Wars movies, the concept of passage of time. One exception is Anakin as a boy in Phantom and a late teen in Attack. How long was Luke training with Yoda? The movie doesn't say. But if you followed the events since he landed and what is going on with the others on Bespin, it looks like maybe days when in reality it probably was months or a year. This is where the movie watcher needs to use their mind and just head cannon that X's training took X amount of time to happen.
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 1, 2020 1:58:18 GMT
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Post by cypherj on Jan 1, 2020 2:13:33 GMT
That's the problem with the Star Wars movies, the concept of passage of time. One exception is Anakin as a boy in Phantom and a late teen in Attack. How long was Luke training with Yoda? The movie doesn't say. But if you followed the events since he landed and what is going on with the others on Bespin, it looks like maybe days when in reality it probably was months or a year. This is where the movie watcher needs to use their mind and just head cannon that X's training took X amount of time to happen. But in the two previous trilogies years passed in between the movies, and the main protagonist came back stronger each film. That's the problem with the new one, the second movie picks up literally the second the previous one ended. The first movie takes place over a few days if that, and in the second movie when they go through hyperspace after the initial scene someone says they have 18 hours of fuel left. They never ran out of fuel, they abandoned ship and the First Order followed them immediately down to the planet. So the second movie barely lasted two days. So in the span probably less than a week she went from thinking Jedi were a myth to being powerful in the force, and excelling in lightsaber combat. I don't know how anyone can say that this isn't extremely far fetched given what was established up to that point. Jedi went to class for lightsaber combat, trained in different styles that served different purposes. The theory being that a lightsaber was hard to wield at first due to all the weight being in the hilt and none in the blade. Like I said in a previous comment, I would have had a lesser opinion of the original trilogy if Luke had just beat Vader down in A New Hope or Empire Strikes Back. If Luke had just went into the cave and not failed that trial. If he had just pulled his X-Wing out of the swamp, never lost his temper when Vader mentioned Leia, never even attempted to strike the Emperor down. It's just not a believable character. I don't know if you've ever seen a movie called Ender's game. Was the same thing in there. Kid pretty much did everything perfect, and never really suffered any setbacks. Just wasn't a believable character, or one i really even cared about.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 1, 2020 2:16:09 GMT
So what, the legends didn't mention the powers the Jedi had? People had difficulty believing they exist because... why exactly? If she knows about the Jedi it stands to reason she knows what some of their capabilities are. She doesn't have to have "extensive knowledge"; hell, even Watto in TPM knew about their mind tricks on Tatooine - stands to reason that information is still floating around.
In that scene she looks to me like a fan who just discovered the crazy stories she loved were real, because 30 years prior the Empire was actually defeated, and Luke, Leia, and Han were probably famous. You're comparing a time when Jedi were at their height, and had a presence across the entire galaxy to a time when they're for all intents and purposes extinct. Like I said, nothing in that movie led me to believe that she was a "fangirl" and knew all things Jedi and the rebellion. Fangirl would imply that she consumed all things associated with Jedi and the rebellion. She didn't remember or even know Han Solo was a general in the rebellion, he's just a smuggler to her. Doesn't scream fangirl of the rebellion and Jedi to me. My assertion was that information persists over an extended time. So, yes, when the information on Jedi mind tricks reached the fringe planet of Tatooine during the height of the Jedi power, that information would persist after their downfall, through the reign of the Empire, as Luke's confrontation with Jabba the Hutt in RotJ so ably demonstrated. The information on Jedi mind ticks was in fact available, probably more so after Luke became famous 30 years prior to TFA. My definition of fangirl (or boy) is less about consuming all information about something, and more about being in awe given what they do know. Rey was essentially homeless on a desert planet, consuming what incomplete information she had access to. She had enough the know about Luke, Leia, Han, and the Millennium Falcon. Rey says she thought Luke Skywalker was a myth on Jakku when she first met Finn, but the look on her face as she delivers the line says she knows enough to be in awe of Luke actually being real, meaning she is aware of Jedi powers.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 1, 2020 2:28:34 GMT
You're comparing a time when Jedi were at their height, and had a presence across the entire galaxy to a time when they're for all intents and purposes extinct. Like I said, nothing in that movie led me to believe that she was a "fangirl" and knew all things Jedi and the rebellion. Fangirl would imply that she consumed all things associated with Jedi and the rebellion. She didn't remember or even know Han Solo was a general in the rebellion, he's just a smuggler to her. Doesn't scream fangirl of the rebellion and Jedi to me. My assertion was that information persists over an extended time. So, yes, when the information on Jedi mind tricks reached the fringe planet of Tatooine during the height of the Jedi power, that information would persist after their downfall, through the reign of the Empire, as Luke's confrontation with Jabba the Hutt in RotJ so ably demonstrated. The information on Jedi mind ticks was in fact available, probably more so after Luke became famous 30 years prior to TFA. My definition of fangirl (or boy) is less about consuming all information about something, and more about being in awe given what they do know. Rey was essentially homeless on a desert planet, consuming what incomplete information she had access to. She had enough the know about Luke, Leia, Han, and the Millennium Falcon. Rey says she thought Luke Skywalker was a myth on Jakku when she first met Finn, but the look on her face as she delivers the line says she knows enough to be in awe of Luke actually being real, meaning she is aware of Jedi powers. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Nothing in the movie leads me to believe the first statement you made about this is actually the way things were. Nothing to say that she had anything more basic idea that Jedi once existed. She definitely didn't know much of the rebellion given her comments about Han Solo the smuggler and not the war hero.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jan 1, 2020 11:23:34 GMT
The Mandalorian's theme is kinda like Rocky I & II movie themes.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 1, 2020 13:50:08 GMT
Why do I have to wait until March to get the novelization of RoS? That is just stupid. Should be released at the same time as the movie. I like the novelizations of the movies, you are given more details, get into the heads of the characters. This book Before the Awakening takes place before The Force Awakens. It tells the tale of Finn, Poe and Rey before the events in TFA. It also explains why Rey has some skills, like mechanical skills and knowing how to fly a ship. If we're lucky, it will be an EU type novel like RotS, and not just a descriptive reiteration of the extended script like TPM.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 1, 2020 16:39:22 GMT
Given Luke couldn't do those things after YEARS of practice and at least basic instruction from a Jedi Master (including seeing the mind trick done up close) Huh?? Is this an EU thing? Because after years of practice, IE by the time we got to Return of the Jedi, Luke was able to mind trick beings and use telekenesis without breaking a Force Sweat. And in the time between meeting Obi Won and his training on Dagobah?
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Post by Iakus on Jan 1, 2020 16:39:39 GMT
Wow!!!
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 1, 2020 17:28:33 GMT
His list of favorites must be a joke also. Phantom Menace as number 5? And listing Rogue One second to last? Guy is on some serious meth.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 1, 2020 18:02:03 GMT
His list of favorites must be a joke also. Phantom Menace as number 5? And listing Rogue One second to last? Guy is on some serious meth. Strawman. He has a point, the sequel Trilogy is absolute garbage
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Post by Iakus on Jan 1, 2020 18:36:00 GMT
His list of favorites must be a joke also. Phantom Menace as number 5? And listing Rogue One second to last? Guy is on some serious meth. THing is, this tweet was from a year and a half ago, and is remarkably similar to what the Fall of Skywalker ends up doing.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 1, 2020 18:42:49 GMT
If she did that she really would be a Marry Sue.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 1, 2020 18:47:43 GMT
If she did that she really would be a Marry Sue. Already is.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 1, 2020 23:37:31 GMT
Huh?? Is this an EU thing? Because after years of practice, IE by the time we got to Return of the Jedi, Luke was able to mind trick beings and use telekenesis without breaking a Force Sweat. And in the time between meeting Obi Won and his training on Dagobah? If you watch OT you will see that Luke doesnt seem to have any practice in Force between ANH and ESB, spent a week at best on Dagobah in ESB and had maybe several months of self-training before RotJ. According to the movies this is all the training Luke had. When I first saw the Rise of Skywalker, I was really hoping that they were talking about him. But alas, those hopes were dashed. Well it kinda was about him too. I recall JJ saying he was always more of a fan of Star Trek than Star Wars. Its the other way around actually My assertion was that information persists over an extended time. So, yes, when the information on Jedi mind tricks reached the fringe planet of Tatooine during the height of the Jedi power, that information would persist after their downfall, through the reign of the Empire, as Luke's confrontation with Jabba the Hutt in RotJ so ably demonstrated. You are giving two examples of people familiar with Jedi abilities and extending this knowledge to the general public because of it? This is flat out wrong.
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Obadiah
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August 2016
obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 1, 2020 23:56:25 GMT
... My assertion was that information persists over an extended time. So, yes, when the information on Jedi mind tricks reached the fringe planet of Tatooine during the height of the Jedi power, that information would persist after their downfall, through the reign of the Empire, as Luke's confrontation with Jabba the Hutt in RotJ so ably demonstrated. You are giving two examples of people familiar with Jedi abilities and extending this knowledge to the general public because of it? This is flat out wrong. By "information persists" I meant the information is available to people interested in it, if they go looking for it. This is not the same as "knowledge to the general public" which would mean many or most people in the general public know about it. Of course, I don't know what the general public in a given area of the Star Wars universe knows, but if someone there had heard of the Jedi, and they had a hard time believing the Jedi existed, as Rey does, it stands to reason they are familiar with some of the stories of their abilities which makes them seem mythical and hard to believe in.
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mybudgee
Fear is your only God
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mybudgee
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 2, 2020 0:03:36 GMT
And in the time between meeting Obi Won and his training on Dagobah? If you watch OT you will see that Luke doesnt seem to have any practice in Force between ANH and ESB, spent a week at best on Dagobah in ESB and had maybe several months of self-training before RotJ. According to the movies this is all the training Luke had. When I first saw the Rise of Skywalker, I was really hoping that they were talking about him. But alas, those hopes were dashed. Well it kinda was about him too. I recall JJ saying he was always more of a fan of Star Trek than Star Wars. Its the other way around actually My assertion was that information persists over an extended time. So, yes, when the information on Jedi mind tricks reached the fringe planet of Tatooine during the height of the Jedi power, that information would persist after their downfall, through the reign of the Empire, as Luke's confrontation with Jabba the Hutt in RotJ so ably demonstrated. You are giving two examples of people familiar with Jedi abilities and extending this knowledge to the general public because of it? This is flat out wrong. Uhhh.... how are you so certain of any of this???
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Iakus
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August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jan 2, 2020 0:09:34 GMT
And in the time between meeting Obi Won and his training on Dagobah? If you watch OT you will see that Luke doesnt seem to have any practice in Force between ANH and ESB, spent a week at best on Dagobah in ESB and had maybe several months of self-training before RotJ. According to the movies this is all the training Luke had. Canonically, ESB is three years after ANH. ANd Luke has had several canon adventures during thast time. SItuations where he's be calling on the Force AT LEAST as much as Rey has.
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masterwarderz
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 2, 2020 0:24:37 GMT
And in the time between meeting Obi Won and his training on Dagobah? If you watch OT you will see that Luke doesnt seem to have any practice in Force between ANH and ESB, spent a week at best on Dagobah in ESB Inaccurate, its never been actually officially confirmed either in the EU or the...new material how long he took there but it does take place between the Falcon getting to Cloud City which without a functional hyperdrive which would take several months. The high end estimate for his training under Yoda is about half a year by the way.
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