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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 2, 2020 0:25:25 GMT
If you watch OT you will see that Luke doesnt seem to have any practice in Force between ANH and ESB, spent a week at best on Dagobah in ESB and had maybe several months of self-training before RotJ. According to the movies this is all the training Luke had. Canonically, ESB is three years after ANH. And ROJ is about a year after ESB.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 2, 2020 0:37:59 GMT
Canonically, ESB is three years after ANH. And ROJ is about a year after ESB. True. THough the comparison I was making was that Luke after three years of training was barely functional with the Force. AS opposed to Jedi Grandmaster Rey after THREE DAYS.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 2, 2020 0:47:00 GMT
By "information persists" I meant the information is available to people interested in it, if they go looking for it. This is not the same as "knowledge to the general public" which would mean many or most people in the general public know about it. Of course, I don't know what the general public in a given area of the Star Wars universe knows, but if someone there had heard of the Jedi, and they had a hard time believing the Jedi existed, as Rey does, it stands to reason they are familiar with some of the stories of their abilities which makes them seem mythical and hard to believe in. Not really. Watto and Jabba might be the only people on Tatooine who knew anything substantial about Jedi. That doesnt guarantee that it is easy enough for general public to find this knowledge. In fact it might be very hard to do, we just cant know. We just see this knowledge in these two because it was neccessary for the plot. Uhhh.... how are you so certain of any of this??? How can one be certain of anything except that he exists? Also, can you be more specific? Canonically, ESB is three years after ANH. ANd Luke has had several canon adventures during thast time. SItuations where he's be calling on the Force AT LEAST as much as Rey has. I said "in the movies". I guess this is how you and majority of other people experienced OT for the first time. And this is probably how it would be percieved by them. It is later, when "fans" started to nitpick and point to every plothole that writers started to pump out novels and comicbooks and even movies to address them. I'm sure some day they will make a novel or comicbook or even a movie that explains away all the plotholes in the sequel trilogy, including a very detailed and well thought out explanation of what made Luke Skywalker to try and kill Ben Solo and the become a bitter hermit.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 2, 2020 1:01:20 GMT
By "information persists" I meant the information is available to people interested in it, if they go looking for it. This is not the same as "knowledge to the general public" which would mean many or most people in the general public know about it. Of course, I don't know what the general public in a given area of the Star Wars universe knows, but if someone there had heard of the Jedi, and they had a hard time believing the Jedi existed, as Rey does, it stands to reason they are familiar with some of the stories of their abilities which makes them seem mythical and hard to believe in. Not really. Watto and Jabba might be the only people on Tatooine who knew anything substantial about Jedi. That doesnt guarantee that it is easy enough for general public to find this knowledge. In fact it might be very hard to do, we just cant know. We just see this knowledge in these two because it was neccessary for the plot. ... Right, except Rey did know to try a Jedi mind trick after successfully resisting Kylo's Force mind probe in TFA, indicating that she does sorta know about this ability - meaning the information, believed to be mythical or not, probably isn't that restricted.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 2, 2020 1:02:20 GMT
And ROJ is about a year after ESB. True. THough the comparison I was making was that Luke after three years of training was barely functional with the Force. AS opposed to Jedi Grandmaster Rey after THREE DAYS. More empirical evidence that the sequels are fanfiction ... at best
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Post by Iakus on Jan 2, 2020 1:25:28 GMT
Canonically, ESB is three years after ANH. ANd Luke has had several canon adventures during thast time. SItuations where he's be calling on the Force AT LEAST as much as Rey has. I said "in the movies". I guess this is how you and majority of other people experienced OT for the first time. And this is probably how it would be percieved by them. It is later, when "fans" started to nitpick and point to every plothole that writers started to pump out novels and comicbooks and even movies to address them. I'm sure some day they will make a novel or comicbook or even a movie that explains away all the plotholes in the sequel trilogy, including a very detailed and well thought out explanation of what made Luke Skywalker to try and kill Ben Solo and the become a bitter hermit. Even "in the movies" enough time passed where they had time to have some adventures. Leia: "I thought you had decided to stay" Han: "Well, the bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell changed my mind."
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 1:26:16 GMT
Since this is still a topic of conversation I wanted to at least attempt to summarize my thoughts, because I think there is (probably) some confusion on my actual position based on how some posters were responding to me. Probably my fault more then anything but the issue of 'training' seems to be a huge sticking point. In regards to Rey's special status or not I believe:
A. She is naturally gifted in the Force. This could be because of her bloodline (thanks ROS) or because the Force 'chose her'...is really quite irrelevant. Its there and both have been apart of Star Wars canon even before Rey. B. While not specifically getting 'Jedi training' she has had some training in areas similar enough to give her some sort of an advantage. Mechanical aptitude, melee combat, piloting (at least as much as Luke or Anakin had in TPM/ ANH, probably more), had to have a discpiplined mind in order to survive on Jakku, kind of a fly by the seat of her pants hopeful 'hope this works' demeanor, plus hearing about the legends of Luke Skywalker and everything else that happens to her during the first two movies gives her an indication of what Force Powers are out there. C. Extenuating circumstances outside her control has aided her on her journey. Kylo being badly wounded/ unbalanced, Kylo going easy on her, Luke going easy on her/ not fighting to his full potential (and still holding her off), Kylo saving her tuccus on Snoke's flagship and Luke saving her and the rest of the Resistance on Crait. She should be dead...or captured...by like ten times over, this is the 'luck'part of the argument. D. she needs additional training (from Luke, Leia, the Jedi texts) to reach her full potential in the Force. Raw talent and power is one thing, but it needed..refinement.
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 2, 2020 1:49:43 GMT
Speaking of the Force of "choosing" people. People who happen to have force powers who didn't know they were Force sensitives were living normal lives until the Force, Fate, god being, whatever brought the real world to them, thus making them active in the big events of the real world.
Anakin was a living the life of a slave, not know his Force abilities would have probably lived a nobody slave life until the war came knocking on his door, aka Obi-Wan and Padme.
Luke was living the life of a nobody, with dreams of being more than what he was. He wanted to join the academy but his uncle kept delaying it. As such, the Force came knocking on his door by getting him involved in the war, thanks to the droids. Would he have kept living a life of a nobody on Tattoonie or join the acedemy? Who knows. The almighty Force put him in the spotlight of universal events.
Rey, living a life of a nobody scrapper on Jakku. She probably would have kept living a life of a nobody until the Force came knocking on her door thanks to a droid and an ex-stormtrooper.
The almighty God Force has a way of drawing ordinary people, with hidden skills, into universal events, for good or bad.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 1:57:44 GMT
Speaking of the Force of "choosing" people. People who happen to have force powers who didn't know they were Force sensitives were living normal lives until the Force, Fate, god being, whatever brought the real world to them, thus making them active in the big events of the real world. Anakin was a living the life of a slave, not know his Force abilities would have probably lived a nobody slave life until the war came knocking on his door, aka Obi-Wan and Padme. Luke was living the life of a nobody, with dreams of being more than what he was. He wanted to join the academy but his uncle kept delaying it. As such, the Force came knocking on his door by getting him involved in the war, thanks to the droids. Would he have kept living a life of a nobody on Tattoonie or join the acedemy? Who knows. The almighty Force put him in the spotlight of universal events. Rey, living a life of a nobody scrapper on Jakku. She probably would have kept living a life of a nobody until the Force came knocking on her door thanks to a droid and an ex-stormtrooper. The almighty God Force has a way of drawing ordinary people, with hidden skills, into universal events, for good or bad. Its almost as if the Force was written by someone wanting to ape the epic hero arc.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 2, 2020 2:21:29 GMT
Since this is still a topic of conversation I wanted to at least attempt to summarize my thoughts, because I think there is (probably) some confusion on my actual position based on how some posters were responding to me. Probably my fault more then anything but the issue of 'training' seems to be a huge sticking point. In regards to Rey's special status or not I believe: A. She is naturally gifted in the Force. This could be because of her bloodline (thanks ROS) or because the Force 'chose her'...is really quite irrelevant. Its there and both have been apart of Star Wars canon even before Rey. B. While not specifically getting 'Jedi training' she has had some training in areas similar enough to give her some sort of an advantage. Mechanical aptitude, melee combat, piloting (at least as much as Luke or Anakin had in TPM/ ANH, probably more), had to have a discpiplined mind in order to survive on Jakku, kind of a fly by the seat of her pants hopeful 'hope this works' demeanor, plus hearing about the legends of Luke Skywalker and everything else that happens to her during the first two movies gives her an indication of what Force Powers are out there. C. Extenuating circumstances outside her control has aided her on her journey. Kylo being badly wounded/ unbalanced, Kylo going easy on her, Luke going easy on her/ not fighting to his full potential (and still holding her off), Kylo saving her tuccus on Snoke's flagship and Luke saving her and the rest of the Resistance on Crait. She should be dead...or captured...by like ten times over, this is the 'luck'part of the argument. D. she needs additional training (from Luke, Leia, the Jedi texts) to reach her full potential in the Force. Raw talent and power is one thing, but it needed..refinement. Anakin was conceived by the force and he wasn't as powerful as Rey was after a week until probably the last last movie. This is after spending half his life in the Jedi temple getting full training under Obi-Wan. Luke was Anakin's bloodline and probably wasn't as strong as Rey until the third movie, seeing that he couldn't even get his X-Wing out the water in the second movie. Years had passed. It's just not believable. People always try act like Kylo Ren was missing an arm and a leg when fighting her. If he were so badly injured, she would have just dominated him from the start. Instead he forced her back, and caused her to retreat, pushing her all the way to the edge of the cliff. Which is how the fight should have logically gone given the experience disparity, and the fact that she had ever picked up a lightsaber before. But then, she closes her eyes for a few seconds, and when she opens them she uses a power up, a cheat code, activates invincible mode, whatever, and just goes to town and beats him down. Had nothing to do with any injuries. She just took it up a bunch of levels out of nowhere. Just wasn't believable. He was also fine and leading the attack at the start of the second movie, which took place immediately after the first. And this was with any additional injuries he would have had after the from Rey. They also tried to make this excuse in the second movie of Kylo being unblalanced, no doubt in response the all the criticism of the fight. But that just contradicts the events of the first movie. He was conflicted when he got to Starkiller base. He tells Han Solo that he knows what he needs to do stop being conflicted but he doesn't know if he can do it. Then he kills Han Solo. Dark side music starts playing, red light in glowing off to the side. To me this meant that he had purged the light, and became totally dark with act of killing Han. Trying to use the excuse that he was unbalanced just diminishes that scene. It's just not believable, less than a week from the start of events. Not to mention that she didn't even start taping into the force until the end of the first movie when she escaped. So we're probably talking like three days.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 2:35:10 GMT
Since this is still a topic of conversation I wanted to at least attempt to summarize my thoughts, because I think there is (probably) some confusion on my actual position based on how some posters were responding to me. Probably my fault more then anything but the issue of 'training' seems to be a huge sticking point. In regards to Rey's special status or not I believe: A. She is naturally gifted in the Force. This could be because of her bloodline (thanks ROS) or because the Force 'chose her'...is really quite irrelevant. Its there and both have been apart of Star Wars canon even before Rey. B. While not specifically getting 'Jedi training' she has had some training in areas similar enough to give her some sort of an advantage. Mechanical aptitude, melee combat, piloting (at least as much as Luke or Anakin had in TPM/ ANH, probably more), had to have a discpiplined mind in order to survive on Jakku, kind of a fly by the seat of her pants hopeful 'hope this works' demeanor, plus hearing about the legends of Luke Skywalker and everything else that happens to her during the first two movies gives her an indication of what Force Powers are out there. C. Extenuating circumstances outside her control has aided her on her journey. Kylo being badly wounded/ unbalanced, Kylo going easy on her, Luke going easy on her/ not fighting to his full potential (and still holding her off), Kylo saving her tuccus on Snoke's flagship and Luke saving her and the rest of the Resistance on Crait. She should be dead...or captured...by like ten times over, this is the 'luck'part of the argument. D. she needs additional training (from Luke, Leia, the Jedi texts) to reach her full potential in the Force. Raw talent and power is one thing, but it needed..refinement. Anakin was conceived by the force and he wasn't as powerful as Rey was after a week until probably the last last movie. This is after spending half his life in the Jedi temple getting full training under Obi-Wan. Luke was Anakin's bloodline and probably wasn't as strong as Rey until the third movie, seeing that he couldn't even get his X-Wing out the water in the second movie. Years had passed. It's just not believable. People always try act like Kylo Ren was missing an arm and a leg when fighting her. If he were so badly injured, she would have just dominated him from the start. Instead he forced her back, and caused her to retreat, pushing her all the way to the edge of the cliff. Which is how the fight should have logically gone given the experience disparity, and the fact that she had ever picked up a lightsaber before. But then, she closes her eyes for a few seconds, and when she opens them she uses a power up, a cheat code, activates invincible mode, whatever, and just goes to town and beats him down. Had nothing to do with any injuries. She just took it up a bunch of levels out of nowhere. Just wasn't believable. He was also fine and leading the attack at the start of the second movie, which took place immediately after the first. And this was with any additional injuries he would have had after the from Rey. They also tried to make this excuse in the second movie of Kylo being unblalanced, no doubt in response the all the criticism of the fight. But that just contradicts the events of the first movie. He was conflicted when he got to Starkiller base. He tells Han Solo that he knows what he needs to do stop being conflicted but he doesn't know if he can do it. Then he kills Han Solo, dark side music starts playing, red light in glowing off to the side. To me this means he purged the light, and became totally dark with act of killing Han. Trying to use the excuse that he was unbalanced just diminishes that scene. It's just not believable, less than a week from the start of events. Not to mention that she didn't even start taping into the force until the end of the first movie when she escaped. So we're probably talking like three days. And that's the main sticking point. I just don't see her as being that powerful in Eps VII-VIII. Lucky but not powerful. Certainly no more then ESB Luke or Attack of the Clones Anakin. Actually come to think of it Attack of the Clones Anakin was probably much more powerful and skilled then she is. I think his injuries simply caught up to him at the end of the fight after she did her 'cheat code'. Plus him being unbalanced would explain a lot, like him not being able to summon Anakin's Lightsaber to him. Though it is a fairly good point about him leading the attack after...but he probably had medical attention by then so its not that bad of a disconnect. It is believable depending on how much you look at the rest of the series. Her powers aren't beyond what has been established from the last two 'chosen ones'. Especially in terms of flying. Yes her using the Falcon was pushing it, but it also pushed it when Anakin and Luke did similar things during TPM and ANH. Luck, the will of the Force. natural talent, movie convenience in order to tell an exciting story. Etc.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 2, 2020 2:59:24 GMT
Anakin was conceived by the force and he wasn't as powerful as Rey was after a week until probably the last last movie. This is after spending half his life in the Jedi temple getting full training under Obi-Wan. Luke was Anakin's bloodline and probably wasn't as strong as Rey until the third movie, seeing that he couldn't even get his X-Wing out the water in the second movie. Years had passed. It's just not believable. People always try act like Kylo Ren was missing an arm and a leg when fighting her. If he were so badly injured, she would have just dominated him from the start. Instead he forced her back, and caused her to retreat, pushing her all the way to the edge of the cliff. Which is how the fight should have logically gone given the experience disparity, and the fact that she had ever picked up a lightsaber before. But then, she closes her eyes for a few seconds, and when she opens them she uses a power up, a cheat code, activates invincible mode, whatever, and just goes to town and beats him down. Had nothing to do with any injuries. She just took it up a bunch of levels out of nowhere. Just wasn't believable. He was also fine and leading the attack at the start of the second movie, which took place immediately after the first. And this was with any additional injuries he would have had after the from Rey. They also tried to make this excuse in the second movie of Kylo being unblalanced, no doubt in response the all the criticism of the fight. But that just contradicts the events of the first movie. He was conflicted when he got to Starkiller base. He tells Han Solo that he knows what he needs to do stop being conflicted but he doesn't know if he can do it. Then he kills Han Solo, dark side music starts playing, red light in glowing off to the side. To me this means he purged the light, and became totally dark with act of killing Han. Trying to use the excuse that he was unbalanced just diminishes that scene. It's just not believable, less than a week from the start of events. Not to mention that she didn't even start taping into the force until the end of the first movie when she escaped. So we're probably talking like three days. And that's the main sticking point. I just don't see her as being that powerful in Eps VII-VIII. Lucky but not powerful. Certainly no more then ESB Luke or Attack of the Clones Anakin. Actually come to think of it Attack of the Clones Anakin was probably much more powerful and skilled then she is. I think his injuries simply caught up to him at the end of the fight after she did her 'cheat code'. Plus him being unbalanced would explain a lot, like him not being able to summon Anakin's Lightsaber to him. Though it is a fairly good point about him leading the attack after...but he probably had medical attention by then so its not that bad of a disconnect. It is believable depending on how much you look at the rest of the series. Her powers aren't beyond what has been established from the last two 'chosen ones'. Especially in terms of flying. Yes her using the Falcon was pushing it, but it also pushed it when Anakin and Luke did similar things during TPM and ANH. Luck, the will of the Force. natural talent, movie convenience in order to tell an exciting story. Etc. So after dominating 95% percent of the fight, he just happens to start being conflicted and feeling the effect of wounds the exact moment she pulls strength from nowhere and starts going off? I mean c'mon, seriously. If anything, adrenaline from the fight would have made him feel any injuries less, not more.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 3:11:40 GMT
And that's the main sticking point. I just don't see her as being that powerful in Eps VII-VIII. Lucky but not powerful. Certainly no more then ESB Luke or Attack of the Clones Anakin. Actually come to think of it Attack of the Clones Anakin was probably much more powerful and skilled then she is. I think his injuries simply caught up to him at the end of the fight after she did her 'cheat code'. Plus him being unbalanced would explain a lot, like him not being able to summon Anakin's Lightsaber to him. Though it is a fairly good point about him leading the attack after...but he probably had medical attention by then so its not that bad of a disconnect. It is believable depending on how much you look at the rest of the series. Her powers aren't beyond what has been established from the last two 'chosen ones'. Especially in terms of flying. Yes her using the Falcon was pushing it, but it also pushed it when Anakin and Luke did similar things during TPM and ANH. Luck, the will of the Force. natural talent, movie convenience in order to tell an exciting story. Etc. So after dominating 95% percent of the fight, he just happens to start being conflicted and feeling the effect of wounds the exact moment she pulls strength from nowhere and starts going off? I mean c'mon, seriously. If anything, adrenaline from the fight would have made him feel any injuries less, not more. No. He is conflicted and wounded throughout most of the fight, which might be one reason why she is able to take the Lightsaber from him, yet he still has enough energy left to chase her through the forest. He does not actually intend to kill her and do her harm, is hence playing with her, trying to disarm her, not kill her. She...who has no training in lightsaber combat is fairly easy to get on her back foot. He makes his offer to become her 'teacher' in the ways of the Force, this remidns her the Force is a thing...she taps into the dark side of the Force...and because Kylo has been badly injured this entire time/ unbalanced and she is...neither of these things in that moment...she is able to overpower him. Its a fairly straightfoward interpretation of the events on screen and the events of the rest of the movie. I've never been shot by a bowcaster but I can be fairly certain from his bleeding, etc, that injury might have been...debilitating over a period of time. It was a series of factors that let her beat him that first time, not sure one time. I do find her 'Mary Sue' status a bit ironic given that throughout most of these movies she isn't even the most powerful user of the Force. Luke, Snoke, even Kylo are all shown to be much stronger then her and accomplish feats way more impressive...until Episode IX anyways.
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 2, 2020 3:22:58 GMT
LOL Snoke made her look like a inept child when he played around with her. Her feeble attempts would probably had made Snoke laugh if he had a sense of humor.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 2, 2020 3:48:48 GMT
So after dominating 95% percent of the fight, he just happens to start being conflicted and feeling the effect of wounds the exact moment she pulls strength from nowhere and starts going off? I mean c'mon, seriously. If anything, adrenaline from the fight would have made him feel any injuries less, not more. No. He is conflicted and wounded throughout most of the fight, which might be one reason why she is able to take the Lightsaber from him, yet he still has enough energy left to chase her through the forest. He does not actually intend to kill her and do her harm, is hence playing with her, trying to disarm her, not kill her. She...who has no training in lightsaber combat is fairly easy to get on her back foot. He makes his offer to become her 'teacher' in the ways of the Force, this remidns her the Force is a thing...she taps into the dark side of the Force...and because Kylo has been badly injured this entire time/ unbalanced and she is...neither of these things in that moment...she is able to overpower him. Its a fairly straightfoward interpretation of the events on screen and the events of the rest of the movie. I've never been shot by a bowcaster but I can be fairly certain from his bleeding, etc, that injury might have been...debilitating over a period of time. It was a series of factors that let her beat him that first time, not sure one time. I do find her 'Mary Sue' status a bit ironic given that throughout most of these movies she isn't even the most powerful user of the Force. Luke, Snoke, even Kylo are all shown to be much stronger then her and accomplish feats way more impressive...until Episode IX anyways. So, now you're saying that he took it easy on her for most of the fight, and then she just turns it on and beats him down. This makes even less sense than the other scenario, because he would have had more left at the end. If he had all these issues supposedly plaguing him during this fight they would have affected him the entire fight. Not coincidently right at the moment she just gathers this unknown strength and starts going after him. It was the extra strength that won the fight, not any injuries or conflict. That's the purpose of her closing her eyes, focusing and coming back as literally a new person. As far as being a Mary Sue, first time we see Luke in a fight, he loses a hand and has to basically commits suicide, only to survive. First time we see Anakin in a lightsaber duel he loses an arm. First time we see Rey, she's standing over a defeated foe after just pulling strength from who knows where. Luke fails to pull his X-Wing out of the swamp after months or years using the force, and actually having received some training. Rey lifts a pile of boulders to free the resistance after a matter of a few days. Luke walks in a cave with the presence of the Dark Side, and fails a test showing anger and aggression with the sight of Vader. Anakin slaughters a bunch of sand people while losing control. Rey walks into cave filled with the Dark Side, actually being descendant from the Dark side, and nothing. Just walks out without incident. Never one incident of her ever showing one hint of darkness through the first two movies. Luke and Anakin had real setbacks, brushes with the dark side when they lost control. Rey didn't have anything of the sort until they probably got tired of the Mary Sue complaints and tried to give her some character development in the last movie. Had her lose a fight to Kylo, see her dark self, have some doubt and need a talking to by Luke. These are all the type of things that should have happened throughout the three movies. If they did, there would have been no talk of a Mary Sue. But the just did a poor job with her character development. I've never had a problem with the mechanics because she was a scavenger and would know her way around things, or the flying because Luke and Anakin were naturally good pilots. But lightsaber fighting is something that is specifically taught in it's own class to Jedi. Something that requires actual skill built up by practice and repetition. It's not even something that her lineage would have helped her with without actual training and practice. So the fact that she could even wield one that well at all is just totally unbelievable. I won't even go into Finn using it. It was all just preposterous. So is being so strong with the force in so little time. Other people having stronger powers is irrelevant. It's how strong she personally was after a few days, or just a few hours, when you count what happened at the end of Force Awakens. She just wasn't a believable character until the last movie when she got some actual character development. Yeah, her force powers were still OP. But I can't really single her out because everyone's force powers in the last movie were severely OP. The last film should have been called the Force Unleashed, or the Force reaches God status.
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 2, 2020 3:52:21 GMT
LOL Snoke made her look like a inept child when he played around with her. Her feeble attempts would probably had made Snoke laugh if he had a sense of humor. Oh, yeah forgot. Seems like her "Mary Sueness" disappeared during that confrontation.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 4:08:34 GMT
No. He is conflicted and wounded throughout most of the fight, which might be one reason why she is able to take the Lightsaber from him, yet he still has enough energy left to chase her through the forest. He does not actually intend to kill her and do her harm, is hence playing with her, trying to disarm her, not kill her. She...who has no training in lightsaber combat is fairly easy to get on her back foot. He makes his offer to become her 'teacher' in the ways of the Force, this remidns her the Force is a thing...she taps into the dark side of the Force...and because Kylo has been badly injured this entire time/ unbalanced and she is...neither of these things in that moment...she is able to overpower him. Its a fairly straightfoward interpretation of the events on screen and the events of the rest of the movie. I've never been shot by a bowcaster but I can be fairly certain from his bleeding, etc, that injury might have been...debilitating over a period of time. It was a series of factors that let her beat him that first time, not sure one time. I do find her 'Mary Sue' status a bit ironic given that throughout most of these movies she isn't even the most powerful user of the Force. Luke, Snoke, even Kylo are all shown to be much stronger then her and accomplish feats way more impressive...until Episode IX anyways. So, now you're saying that he took it easy on her for most of the fight, and then she just turns it on and beats him down. This makes even less sense than the other scenario, because he would have had more left at the end. If he had all these issues supposedly plaguing him during this fight they would have affected him the entire fight. Not coincidently right at the moment she just gathers this unknown strength and starts going after him. It was the extra strength that won the fight, not any injuries or conflict. That's the purpose of her closing her eyes, focusing and coming back as literally a new person. As far as being a Mary Sue, first time we see Luke in a fight, he loses a hand and has to basically commits suicide, only to survive. First time we see Anakin in a lightsaber duel he loses an arm. First time we see Rey, she's standing over a defeated foe after just pulling strength from who knows where. Luke fails to pull his X-Wing out of the swamp after months or years using the force, and actually having received some training. Rey lifts a pile of boulders to free the resistance after a matter of a few days. Luke walks in a cave with the presence of the Dark Side, and fails a test showing anger and aggression with the sight of Vader. Anakin slaughters a bunch of sand people while losing control. Rey walks into cave filled with the Dark Side, actually being descendant from the Dark side, and nothing. Just walks out without incident. Never one incident of her ever showing one hint of darkness through the first two movies. Luke and Anakin had real setbacks, brushes with the dark side when they lost control. Rey didn't have anything of the sort until they probably got tired of the Mary Sue complaints and tried to give her some character development in the last movie. Had her lose a fight to Kylo, see her dark self, have some doubt and need a talking to by Luke. These are all the type of things that should have happened throughout the three movies. If they did, there would have been no talk of a Mary Sue. But the just did a poor job with her character development. I've never had a problem with the mechanics because she was a scavenger and would know her way around things, or the flying because Luke and Anakin were naturally good pilots. But lightsaber fighting is something that is specifically taught in it's own class to Jedi. Something that requires actual skill built up by practice and repetition. It's not even something that her lineage would have helped her with without actual training and practice. So the fact that she could even wield one that well at all is just totally unbelievable. I won't even go into Finn using it. It was all just preposterous. So is being so strong with the force in so little time. Other people having stronger powers is irrelevant. It's how strong she personally was after a few days, or just a few hours, when you count what happened at the end of Force Awakens. She just wasn't a believable character until the last movie when she got some actual character development. Yeah, her force powers were still OP. But I can't really single her out because everyone's force powers in the last movie were severely OP. The last film should have been called the Force Unleashed, or the Force reaches God status. They did effect him the entire fight... We know exactly where she pulled that power from. Luke didn't believe it was possible, hell even after Yoda did it Luke was all like "I don't believe it' and Yoda was like 'that is why you failed' (my personal favorite exchange between the two in Empire). Rey knew it was possible. ...That is a really curious claim considering all the hints of darkness throughout the movies she exhibits. Constantly yelling, being frustrated, fighting out of aggression and letting her emotions control her. The look on her face when she was fighting Kylo Ren...admittedly the tie in novel does a better job explaining this then the movie iitself...but it was there. Going 'straight to the dark' when Luke started training her, and then going into the dark side cave and allowing it to control her actions. Being drawn to Kylo and sympathetic to him, being tempted to join him at the Last Jedi...all this before Episode IX which just continues to reinforce her self doubt. I mean this is apparently so much a thing where a lot of people were predicating she'd fall to the darkside in Episode IX. Fortunatley for my heart that didn't happen. As far as setbacks are concerned again I don't see where you are getting she gets no setbacks. The Last Jedi she goes to Snoke's flagship in an attempt to redeem Kylo and stop Snoke/ the First order and...spoiler alert...neither of those things happen. She was vain, arrogant, and believed a bit too much in the legends and almost died because of it. If Kylo hadn't grown tired of being used by Snoke she would've lost her life there...and then she just happens to blunder her way through the fight with Snoke's guards. As far as her character development in Rise is concerned, you are right, but I think I have addressed this already. She had little reason to doubt herself until Rise because she was too busy looking for someone else to complete her, so when she found out she was it she was forced to confront her darker...more arrogant impulses.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 2, 2020 4:13:01 GMT
LOL Snoke made her look like a inept child when he played around with her. Her feeble attempts would probably had made Snoke laugh if he had a sense of humor. Love that whole red room scene from TLJ with Rey, Kylo, and Snoke. Every one of them is so certain of the outcome, and they all get surprised by events. Rey winning those saber fights, or even just not not losing, in TFA and TLJ is a bit much given her training of only a few days. Even in the novelization it just describes "raw power" powering her to victory - against trained, even badly injured, warriors? Hard to swallow. I might be missing something about Kylo's abilities though. This is the guy that could freeze people and blaster bolts, and he and Finn have a fight at the climax of TFA where Finn nicks Kylo's arm. Maybe Kylo just isn't that good a saber fighter and charges up on Force powers instead or something, and given the events of the climax was just drained of some of his extra dark side abilities.
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 2, 2020 4:17:12 GMT
Quite. For someone who has never picked up a sword and use it in a fight, she shouldn't have been able to do that. And she used Palpatine's unique fighting style of all fighting styles. She wouldn't know how to parry, if anything, she would swing it around like it was a stick or baseball bat. Finn could use it because being an ex stormtrooper he would have been trained in melee fighting. But he would have used it clumsily because its nothing more than a handle and weightless light.
On a side note, I think there was a lot that could have been told about Rey with her amnesia of her past and her sudden Force awakening thanks to the mindmeld with Kylo. But thanks to that POS Rian Johnson, that was probably all thrown out the window in TLJ. ROS did what it could with damage control but you can only explain so much in a 2.25 hr movie.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 4:21:14 GMT
Quite. For someone who has never picked up a sword and use it in a fight, she shouldn't have been able to do that. And she used Palpatine's unique fighting style of all fighting styles. She wouldn't know how to parry, if anything, she would swing it around like it was a stick or baseball bat. Finn could use it because being an ex stormtrooper he would have been trained in melee fighting. But he would have used it clumsily because its nothing more than a handle and weightless light. On a side note, I think there was a lot that could have been told about Rey with her amnesia of her past and her sudden Force awakening thanks to the mindmeld with Kylo. But thanks to that POS Rian Johnson, that was probably all thrown out the window in TLJ. ROS did what it could with damage control but you can only explain so much in a 2.25 hr movie. Look at the fight again, she pretty much was just randomly flailing about with the lightsaber until she tapped into the Force. I mean what's really amusing about the whole thing is probably 'Palpetine's Unique Fighting Style' was just because Lucas decided to be a jerk one day and gave a guy with no idea how to actually use a sword...a sword. Its covered in one of the commentaries I watched on it and why the fight between Palpy and the Jedi High Council was so...stupid. So Sideous fighting style with a lightsaber is 'random flailing that is somehow effective'. Rey's fighting style in TFA was 'random flailing that was somehow effective'...perhaps not surprisingly they ended up looking similar. lol
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 2, 2020 4:38:05 GMT
Kathleen Kennedy has got to go, and Bob Iger must be smoking that good shit if Rian Johnson is still tasked to direct a trilogy, but here's some more Kino Wars... Kathleen Kennedy should have been fired when she told this boldface lie... “Every one of these movies is a particularly hard nut to crack. There’s no source material. We don’t have comic books. We don’t have 800-page novels. We don’t have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be.”She obviously wasn't a fan of the Star Wars universe to begin with and you can certainly tell. I recall JJ saying he was always more of a fan of Star Trek than Star Wars. Though I couldn't tell by the movies. That statement perfectly illustrates why the sequel trilogy was all over the place because Kennedy who's supposed to function as oversight couldn't care less about the ip beyond it printing money for Iger. JJ is just a corporate yes man with delusions of grandeur who bit off more than he could chew.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 2, 2020 4:59:32 GMT
LOL Snoke made her look like a inept child when he played around with her. Her feeble attempts would probably had made Snoke laugh if he had a sense of humor. Oh, yeah forgot. Seems like her "Mary Sueness" disappeared during that confrontation. Rey put up enough of a resistance to Snoke's torture that he completely put all of his focus on her ignored a obviously conflicted Kylo, and was killed because of that. All of this after she kicked Luke's ass. TFA and TLJ Rey was a Mary Sue.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 2, 2020 5:29:00 GMT
Force Jesus who has a higher midichlorian count than Yoda and was stated by George Lucas to have the potential to be twice as powerful as the Emperor struggled to learn the Mind Trick.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 5:38:02 GMT
Oh, yeah forgot. Seems like her "Mary Sueness" disappeared during that confrontation. Rey put up enough of a resistance to Snoke's torture that he completely put all of his focus on her ignored a obviously conflicted Kylo, and was killed because of that. All of this after she kicked Luke's ass. TFA and TLJ Rey was a Mary Sue. With that kind of reach maybe you can grab a planet in orbit around Alpha Centauri...
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 5:52:39 GMT
There wasn't a lot of 'new music' in TROS but this was a really great addition to the Star Wars brand:
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