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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 2, 2020 5:57:27 GMT
Rey put up enough of a resistance to Snoke's torture that he completely put all of his focus on her ignored a obviously conflicted Kylo, and was killed because of that. All of this after she kicked Luke's ass. TFA and TLJ Rey was a Mary Sue. With that kind of reach maybe you can grab a planet in orbit around Alpha Centauri... What reach? Was Snoke not fully distracted by Rey's resistance to his torture allowing Kylo to exploit said distraction? Did Rey not fly into a rage (datkside) when she attacked and defeated Luke a veteran warrior, and had Yoda of all people smitten with her, along with him ignoring her obvious darkside chimp out? The only reach i see in here is the denial of Rey's bullshit in TFA and TLJ.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 6:04:59 GMT
With that kind of reach maybe you can grab a planet in orbit around Alpha Centauri... What reach? Was Snoke not fully distracted by Rey's resistance to his torture allowing Kylo to exploit said distraction? Did Rey not fly into a rage (datkside) when she attacked and defeated Luke a veteran warrior, and had Yoda of all people smitten with her, along with him ignoring her obvious darkside chimp out? The only reach i see in here is the denial of Rey's bullshit in TFA and TLJ. I'm going to call this goalpost expansion... Snoke wasn't fuly distracted by anything. He merely misintrpreted what Kylo was up to. At least I didn't see him being distracted by anything, nor did I see Rey putting up an effective resistance. Yes she did, on that we agree, but its interesting how that is being used as evidence of her 'mary sueness' when it shows A. she actually does have character flaws *gasp* and B. Again for a while there Luke was managing to hold his own. Yoda ended up being kind of right in the movies. Besides as Rey, Luke, Vader, and Kylo Ren has shown (not to mention all the other examples from Legends and non movie canon) tapping into the dark side or darker emotions, fear, anger, etc, does not damn one to be evil for the rest of time. Luke used the dark side to beat Vader, but then he threw his lightsaber away. Yoda, since presumably he was 'watching' these movies, would've known that. In the end the darkside and the light isn't about one or the other its about a balance between the two. Yes, she was vain, arrogant, fearful, and angry (all character flaws) but in the end she chose to do good.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 2, 2020 6:06:03 GMT
There wasn't a lot of 'new music' in TROS but this was a really great addition to the Star Wars brand: Speaking of John Williams, I love how he got a cameo role in the final Star Wars film he'll be doing music for (he was the bartender Oma Tres on Kijimi for those who didn't know).
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 6:06:52 GMT
There wasn't a lot of 'new music' in TROS but this was a really great addition to the Star Wars brand: Speaking of John Williams, I love how he got a cameo role in the final Star Wars film he'll be doing music for (he was the bartender Oma Tres on Kijimi for those who didn't know). Thank you for posting! I missed him during the movie.
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 2, 2020 6:13:41 GMT
Probably missed Anthony Daniels out of his C3PO outfit also?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 6:17:53 GMT
Probably missed Anthony Daniels out of his C3PO outfit also? Yes...but I did see Wedge at least! And excitedly proclaimed the fact in the theater *cough*
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 2, 2020 6:20:05 GMT
Probably missed Anthony Daniels out of his C3PO outfit also? Yes...but I did see Wedge at least! And excitedly proclaimed the fact in the theater *cough* Anthony was the gunner on the Falcon when Lando showed up.
I've seen the movie 4 times and I keep missing Wedge.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 6:27:50 GMT
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 2, 2020 6:29:10 GMT
Wedge is an X-wing fighter pilot
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 2, 2020 6:39:30 GMT
What reach? Was Snoke not fully distracted by Rey's resistance to his torture allowing Kylo to exploit said distraction? Did Rey not fly into a rage (datkside) when she attacked and defeated Luke a veteran warrior, and had Yoda of all people smitten with her, along with him ignoring her obvious darkside chimp out? The only reach i see in here is the denial of Rey's bullshit in TFA and TLJ. I'm going to call this goalpost expansion... Snoke wasn't fuly distracted by anything. He merely misintrpreted what Kylo was up to. At least I didn't see him being distracted by anything, nor did I see Rey putting up an effective resistance. Yes she did, on that we agree, but its interesting how that is being used as evidence of her 'mary sueness' when it shows A. she actually does have character flaws *gasp* and B. Again for a while there Luke was managing to hold his own. Yoda ended up being kind of right in the movies. Besides as Rey, Luke, Vader, and Kylo Ren has shown (not to mention all the other examples from Legends and non movie canon) tapping into the dark side or darker emotions, fear, anger, etc, does not damn one to be evil for the rest of time. Luke used the dark side to beat Vader, but then he threw his lightsaber away. Yoda, since presumably he was 'watching' these movies, would've known that. In the end the darkside and the light isn't about one or the other its about a balance between the two. Yes, she was vain, arrogant, fearful, and angry (all character flaws) but in the end she chose to do good. Rey being tortured by Snoke does not diminish her May Sue status because she endured his torture long enough to give Kylo an opening, and Snoke misinterpreting Kylo's actions when the latter previously attempted to kill him is just stupid. Rey's torture is a nonsensical example to give to dismiss her status as a Sue when she didn't fail or submit in that instance. Rey being tortured by Snoke isn't a character flaw, the flaw is supposed to be her actions that lead her into that situation but the narrative didn't treat her rush to save her friends and naivete as negatives but flat out ignored the potential theme/aesop which contrasts the past narrative's treatment of Luke's impatience on Dagobah. Rey's assault against Luke was fueled by anger (darkside) but it wasn't treated as a negative moment for her character by the narrative unlike Anakin's and Luke's past chimpouts, Yoda being uncharacteristicly smitten with a neophyte force user who gave into their anger because they don't like being ignored, while ignoring that transgression is a clear out of character moment for him thanks to the writing.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 6:44:06 GMT
I'm going to call this goalpost expansion... Snoke wasn't fuly distracted by anything. He merely misintrpreted what Kylo was up to. At least I didn't see him being distracted by anything, nor did I see Rey putting up an effective resistance. Yes she did, on that we agree, but its interesting how that is being used as evidence of her 'mary sueness' when it shows A. she actually does have character flaws *gasp* and B. Again for a while there Luke was managing to hold his own. Yoda ended up being kind of right in the movies. Besides as Rey, Luke, Vader, and Kylo Ren has shown (not to mention all the other examples from Legends and non movie canon) tapping into the dark side or darker emotions, fear, anger, etc, does not damn one to be evil for the rest of time. Luke used the dark side to beat Vader, but then he threw his lightsaber away. Yoda, since presumably he was 'watching' these movies, would've known that. In the end the darkside and the light isn't about one or the other its about a balance between the two. Yes, she was vain, arrogant, fearful, and angry (all character flaws) but in the end she chose to do good. Rey being tortured by Snoke does not diminish her May Sue status because she endured his torture long enough to give Kylo an opening, and Snoke misinterpreting Kylo's actions when the latter previously attempted to kill him is just stupid. Rey's torture is a nonsensical example to give to dismiss her status as a Sue when she didn't fail or submit in that instance. Rey being tortured by Snoke isn't a character flaw, the flaw is supposed to be her actions that lead her into that situation but the narrative didn't treat her rush to save her friends and naivete as negatives but iflat out ignored the potential theme which contrasts the narrative's treatment of Luke's impatience on Dagobah. Rey's assault against Luke was fueled by anger (darkside) but it wasn't treated as a negative moment for her character by the narrative unlike Anakin's and Luke's past chimpouts, Yoda being uncharacteristicly smitten with a neophyte force user who gave into their anger because they don't like being ignored, while ignoring that transgression is a clear out of character moment for him thanks to the writing. Nice picture of Rey there... You are presuming a lot about what the narrative does or does not consider negative character moments. I've always thought about those being negative moments for her character and considering...I feel like a broken record here but so help me...she NEARLY LOST HER LIFE, I think the narrative supports my conclusion. Luke was right, she was wrong, she acted rashly and without thinking...more so then Luke even in ESB because at least his friends were in genuine danger.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 2, 2020 7:26:39 GMT
Rey being tortured by Snoke does not diminish her May Sue status because she endured his torture long enough to give Kylo an opening, and Snoke misinterpreting Kylo's actions when the latter previously attempted to kill him is just stupid. Rey's torture is a nonsensical example to give to dismiss her status as a Sue when she didn't fail or submit in that instance. Rey being tortured by Snoke isn't a character flaw, the flaw is supposed to be her actions that lead her into that situation but the narrative didn't treat her rush to save her friends and naivete as negatives but iflat out ignored the potential theme which contrasts the narrative's treatment of Luke's impatience on Dagobah. Rey's assault against Luke was fueled by anger (darkside) but it wasn't treated as a negative moment for her character by the narrative unlike Anakin's and Luke's past chimpouts, Yoda being uncharacteristicly smitten with a neophyte force user who gave into their anger because they don't like being ignored, while ignoring that transgression is a clear out of character moment for him thanks to the writing. Nice picture of Rey there... You are presuming a lot about what the narrative does or does not consider negative character moments. I've always thought about those being negative moments for her character and considering...I feel like a broken record here but so help me...she NEARLY LOST HER LIFE, I think the narrative supports my conclusion. Luke was right, she was wrong, she acted rashly and without thinking...more so then Luke even in ESB because at least his friends were in genuine danger. TFA/TLJ's narrative didn't call into question Rey's actions or behavior or depict them as negative. We see Finn, Poe, and Luke being directly confronted for their behavior, but not Rey outside of that instance where Luke taught her how to properly draw on the force. No character called Rey out for her actions because that wasn't the point of her character. She was a big damned heroes character who could do no wrong with a veneer of complexity (mystery box) until JJ corrected course with the character by giving them some much needed development in TRoS but by then the damage was done.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 2, 2020 10:29:58 GMT
They did effect him the entire fight... We know exactly where she pulled that power from. Luke didn't believe it was possible, hell even after Yoda did it Luke was all like "I don't believe it' and Yoda was like 'that is why you failed' (my personal favorite exchange between the two in Empire). Rey knew it was possible. ...That is a really curious claim considering all the hints of darkness throughout the movies she exhibits. Constantly yelling, being frustrated, fighting out of aggression and letting her emotions control her. The look on her face when she was fighting Kylo Ren...admittedly the tie in novel does a better job explaining this then the movie iitself...but it was there. Going 'straight to the dark' when Luke started training her, and then going into the dark side cave and allowing it to control her actions. Being drawn to Kylo and sympathetic to him, being tempted to join him at the Last Jedi...all this before Episode IX which just continues to reinforce her self doubt. I mean this is apparently so much a thing where a lot of people were predicating she'd fall to the darkside in Episode IX. Fortunatley for my heart that didn't happen. As far as setbacks are concerned again I don't see where you are getting she gets no setbacks. The Last Jedi she goes to Snoke's flagship in an attempt to redeem Kylo and stop Snoke/ the First order and...spoiler alert...neither of those things happen. She was vain, arrogant, and believed a bit too much in the legends and almost died because of it. If Kylo hadn't grown tired of being used by Snoke she would've lost her life there...and then she just happens to blunder her way through the fight with Snoke's guards. As far as her character development in Rise is concerned, you are right, but I think I have addressed this already. She had little reason to doubt herself until Rise because she was too busy looking for someone else to complete her, so when she found out she was it she was forced to confront her darker...more arrogant impulses. I've already given my opinion on the if I believe it, I can achieve it regardless of training thing. So I'm not even going to address that anymore. Luke tried to save Vader, that didn't make him vain or arrogant, that's more about naivety. Same with Rey. Luke even said, this isn't going to turn out the way you think, because she was being naive just like he had been. Also losing your temper and being frustrated is not the same as showing signs of darkness. That's just not having patience. When Luke go frustrated and yelled that he was wasting his time before he knew who Yoda was, was that signs of darkness? Or course not. It was a lack of patience, just like Yoda said. She also wasn't sympathetic to Kylo due to any darkness. Technically, she wasn't being sympathetic at all. She was drawn to Kylo due to some pre determined bond. The Force Dyad, or whatever they made up to explain what they were doing in the third movie. As far as the incident with Snoke. After the fight with Snoke's guard she got into a stalemate with Kylo over the lightsaber to the point where the lightsaber was damaged because it being pulled by equal force from both sides. What is the excuse this time for why the stronger force user couldn't take the object from her. Was he badly injured from his fight with the red guards, conflicted again? Did she believe that she she was a strong as Kylo so that it made it so? What was it this time other than her just being stronger than she should have at that point? Even though I'm willing to overlook things in the third movie due to the force just being used in crazy ways. It was clearly established in the film that healing people required transferring life force, which we found to be true at the end of the movie. Kylo suffered a mortal wound, and after Rey heals him, she just runs off and steals his ship. No ill effects whatsoever. So even still in the third movie, she's still playing by a different set of rules than everyone else when it comes to the force. As she was from the start.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 2, 2020 13:49:19 GMT
Nice picture of Rey there... You are presuming a lot about what the narrative does or does not consider negative character moments. I've always thought about those being negative moments for her character and considering...I feel like a broken record here but so help me...she NEARLY LOST HER LIFE, I think the narrative supports my conclusion. Luke was right, she was wrong, she acted rashly and without thinking...more so then Luke even in ESB because at least his friends were in genuine danger. TFA/TLJ's narrative didn't call into question Rey's actions or behavior or depict them as negative. We see Finn, Poe, and Luke being directly confronted for their behavior, but not Rey outside of that instance where Luke taught her how to properly draw on the force. No character called Rey out for her actions because that wasn't the point of her character. She was a big damned heroes character who could do no wrong with a veneer of complexity (mystery box) until JJ corrected course with the character by giving them some much needed development in TRoS but by then the damage was done. Right, so I think the fix in TFA and TLJ is to change the musical queues to indicate Rey's negative dark side actions. Just use that somber chorus thing from when Luke fights Vader in anger in RotJ. You're welcome.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Jan 2, 2020 15:30:36 GMT
TFA/TLJ's narrative didn't call into question Rey's actions or behavior or depict them as negative. We see Finn, Poe, and Luke being directly confronted for their behavior, but not Rey outside of that instance where Luke taught her how to properly draw on the force. No character called Rey out for her actions because that wasn't the point of her character. She was a big damned heroes character who could do no wrong with a veneer of complexity (mystery box) until JJ corrected course with the character by giving them some much needed development in TRoS but by then the damage was done. Right, so I think the fix in TFA and TLJ is to change the musical queues to indicate Rey's negative dark side actions. Just use that somber chorus thing from when Luke fights Vader in anger in RotJ. You're welcome. That choral piece has several titles depending on the release date and version of the OST it accompanies. 1) The Final Duel 2) A Jedi's Fury 3) The Dark Side Beckons; 1997/2004 RCA/Sony 2-CD release 4) as of STAR WARS The Ultimate Soundtrack Collection (released January 8th 2016) it is part of a longer track simply called "The Battle for Endor II" But I agree, that piece is my favourite in all of STAR WARS music. my second favourite is where luke stares at the binary suns.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 2, 2020 16:16:17 GMT
TFA/TLJ's narrative didn't call into question Rey's actions or behavior or depict them as negative. We see Finn, Poe, and Luke being directly confronted for their behavior, but not Rey outside of that instance where Luke taught her how to properly draw on the force. No character called Rey out for her actions because that wasn't the point of her character. She was a big damned heroes character who could do no wrong with a veneer of complexity (mystery box) until JJ corrected course with the character by giving them some much needed development in TRoS but by then the damage was done. Right, so I think the fix in TFA and TLJ is to change the musical queues to indicate Rey's negative dark side actions. Just use that somber chorus thing from when Luke fights Vader in anger in RotJ. You're welcome. This will look bizarre in TFA or TLJ because Daisy's acting, the character dialogue and reactions to her actions barring one scene in TLJ doesn't indicate that what she's doing isn't positive. With Luke's chimpout even if we mute the music we know that the character fucked up because of Hamill's oh shit reaction to his hulk out after space satan's approving laughter slapped him back to reality. Contrast that to Rey's assault where her giving in to her negative emotions, and assaulting a downtrodden senior citizen is not the subject of the confrontation while an approving Yoda was stoked and super erect. TRoS doesn't need this due to the narrative's focus on Rey's flirtation with the darkside being super obvious. Damn shame most of the sequel trilogy characters development was sidelined by TLJ.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 2, 2020 16:26:24 GMT
Apparently it gets even worse in the modern day side material.
.___.
The gay black man on the internet raises valid points if you ask me.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 2, 2020 16:35:30 GMT
Even though I'm willing to overlook things in the third movie due to the force just being used in crazy ways. It was clearly established in the film that healing people required transferring life force, which we found to be true at the end of the movie. Kylo suffered a mortal wound, and after Rey heals him, she just runs off and steals his ship. No ill effects whatsoever. So even still in the third movie, she's still playing by a different set of rules than everyone else when it comes to the force. As she was from the start. Tbh i liked this development because it left Reylo shippers, who are the cringiest of them all, seething. I'm glad that JJ addressed their delusions by making Rey an incel and sparing us another decade of Twilight tier fanfiction from Charles Manson's and Richard Ramirez's admirers.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 2, 2020 18:01:40 GMT
Right, so I think the fix in TFA and TLJ is to change the musical queues to indicate Rey's negative dark side actions. Just use that somber chorus thing from when Luke fights Vader in anger in RotJ. You're welcome. This will look bizarre in TFA or TLJ because Daisy's acting, the character dialogue and reactions to her actions barring one scene in TLJ doesn't indicate that what she's doing isn't positive. With Luke's chimpout even if we mute the music we know that the character fucked up because of Hamill's oh shit reaction to his hulk out after space satan's approving laughter slapped him back to reality. Contrast that to Rey's assault where her giving in to her negative emotions, and assaulting a downtrodden senior citizen is not the subject of the confrontation while an approving Yoda was stoked and super erect. TRoS doesn't need this due to the narrative's focus on Rey's flirtation with the darkside being super obvious. Damn shame most of the sequel trilogy characters development was sidelined by TLJ. It would look fine in TFA since Rey doesn't know any better. In TLJ, they got the Force so wrong even Snoke thinks her defiance because of hope is of a true Jedi.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 18:21:04 GMT
Right, so I think the fix in TFA and TLJ is to change the musical queues to indicate Rey's negative dark side actions. Just use that somber chorus thing from when Luke fights Vader in anger in RotJ. You're welcome. This will look bizarre in TFA or TLJ because Daisy's acting, the character dialogue and reactions to her actions barring one scene in TLJ doesn't indicate that what she's doing isn't positive. With Luke's chimpout even if we mute the music we know that the character fucked up because of Hamill's oh shit reaction to his hulk out after space satan's approving laughter slapped him back to reality. Contrast that to Rey's assault where her giving in to her negative emotions, and assaulting a downtrodden senior citizen is not the subject of the confrontation while an approving Yoda was stoked and super erect. TRoS doesn't need this due to the narrative's focus on Rey's flirtation with the darkside being super obvious. Damn shame most of the sequel trilogy characters development was sidelined by TLJ. Now there's an image...
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Post by cypherj on Jan 2, 2020 18:24:11 GMT
Apparently it gets even worse in the modern day side material. .___. The gay black man on the internet raises valid points if you ask me.
Pretty much what I've been saying the whole time, without the insults and politics, which take away from valid points. These things should be obvious to anyone who enjoys good storytelling and well written characters.
Also, if the quotes he showed in this video are actually from a published work, the author has no business ever writing about anything ever again. Let alone anything related to Star Wars. I mean C'mon, these quotes are a how to on how NOT to write good, compelling characters.
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1033
0
Member is Online
Sept 30, 2024 1:24:05 GMT
35,118
colfoley
18,365
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 19:24:36 GMT
I want the alternate ending to TROS where Rey has to kill the first several people she meets because she keeps on telling them she's a Palpetine.
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inherit
Dark Helmet
1408
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9,302
mybudgee
Fear is your only God
5,900
Sept 2, 2016 20:20:11 GMT
September 2016
mybudgee
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 2, 2020 20:24:17 GMT
Debating with the nu-Fans about MaRey-Sue;
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inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
Sept 30, 2024 1:24:05 GMT
35,118
colfoley
18,365
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Jan 2, 2020 20:39:14 GMT
Debating with the nu-Fans about MaRey-Sue; Seems like a good time to remind everyone that I'm a Star Wars fan. Started with Episode 4 even. Though I don't differentiate between the three trilogies.
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